6.2 Hrothgar Update

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Sorry for being crass. But I'm tired of always putting it in polite terms. If there's nothing by 6.2, I won't ever care about this game. Like, why bother? Cool ideas and all, but they just keep failing a part of their fanbase despite having feedback on it. It does get in the way of me enjoying all the rest.

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Looks like it'll be that time to never care about the game then. I don't know what world people are living on if they think hrothgar are going to get their ear fixes, and more new hair in that update. But hey, maybe it'll happen.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Looks like it'll be that time to never care about the game then. I don't know what world people are living on if they think hrothgar are going to get their ear fixes, and more new hair in that update. But hey, maybe it'll happen.

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You misunderstand. I've mentioned it about a thousand times already: we know this crap takes time.

What we're upset about the most is how they didn't even bother. About how people have made it clear that their answer was bull-manure and in what ways we want them to address us.

What I'm saying is that if come the actual 6.2 patch there hasn't been a single inkling of recognition of this situation whatsoever, one that doesn't reek of dismissal and handwaving, then I personally have no interest in anything they add.

So idk what you're living on, Churro. But read what people say.

We won't get ear fixes, we won't get new hairs. Because that's not how SE works. But if we aren't told "Ok, yeah, we get it now, this is the situation with you guys and it's going to take a lot of time because we're planning on making things better in the future, and more importantly, we don't think you guys are bad for enjoying something we made", when they got butthurt about BLM and Housing has had its, what, 6th update? Then yeah. I'll stop bothering.

Because if you need me to reiterate things for the nth time, then I will:
- We know it takes time
- The situation is really bad
- They're actually making it worse on themselves in the long run
- Even if the updates are meant to be minor, they're still botched up and with low effort
- Hrothgar players haven't been feeling acknowledged or appreciated apart from ONE NPC whose name wasn't even mentioned in Endwalker despite being the main motivation of the game's mascot
- Their answer was dismissive and misleading, parroted by the community representative to shut people up from complaining
Many more reasons mentioned in this thread, the Feedback thread, the Hrothgar hairstyle thread AND the Viera\Hrothgar megathread.

idk what else I can tell you, it's no different than what I've been saying. You may not agree with every post, Churro. But don't disconnect what I say from the context. I'm not one of those guys who wants a fix "right now". But I want an acknowledgement that something will change. If not Hrothgar itself, then the status quo.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'm not angry nor attacking. It's just... you know how I feel by now, I'm the guy literally everywhere nagging the community about this topic. And I know it's nagging. But I do try to keep the nagging to somewhat realistic levels. Because as much as I blame SE overall for this, I know it's not easy to just up and do this whenever we the playerbase feel like it.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Looks like it'll be that time to never care about the game then. I don't know what world people are living on if they think hrothgar are going to get their ear fixes, and more new hair in that update. But hey, maybe it'll happen.

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See, thing is, they've had since April 1st. Since April 1st to address this. Thereve been multiple threads and Zepla put out two different videos saying "Hey guys this is a total piece of shit" on hrothgars behalf.
If they can fix housing in like a month DURING the patch the error occured, if they can gigabuff Blm then immediately nerf it after players noticed how much that shit stunk of blatant "Yoship is doing pvp for once" favoritism, I dont see why its so unrealistic for hrothgar players to expect the tiniest possible fix, keeping our freaking ears on when we change hair, after theyve had MONTHS to get their shit together.

I pay for this game every month. I hated the past two expansions of story. I couldn't begin to give a crap about the Scions of Only One Race (white haired hyurs or hyurs but french whoopdieeffingdoo). All I play their game for is my hrothgar.

Had I know that a Square Enix MAJOR property treated its newest race this godforsaken badly I would never have bought the game. BOUGHT because you can't play the 1 race you give a crap about on free trial.

This is not this hard. THEY are making it hard for no reason (whyyyy are the making separate heads what kind of incompetence) and pushing the blame on players, I want at LEAST a damn apology.

If Sims Minigame can get 10 different Yoship apologies why cant we?

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Originally Posted by XiRon

reply to Churro

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They did address us. Yoshida said "Oh, it's too hard" and then a community rep basically copy-pasted him. And making a model\fixing a 3D model may very well take a bit longer than just fixing housing, which is looking up code and typing in a fix.

...but I agree. I'm only saying this because I know these forums, and I know someone is gonna pick that up and nitpick it to hell and back.

For those people who're thinking that, he's still right. The issue isn't the difficulty between housing and making ears for Hrothgar. We've been over the technical details in at least 3 forum threads by now. The real issue is how it got addressed.

As XiRon said, SE had since April 1st for them to realize the playerbase took this poorly. Hrothgar players have since expressed their frustration and lack of faith. Their reply was dismissive. And instead of working to have a proper dialogue, instead of giving us follow-ups, instead of telling the community rep to give us a reply after so many people consolidated what our frustrations were, they just kept their silence. SE thinks this topic is over and done, and that is a problem. It isn't over. And it won't help the situation at all. No need for so many updates on housing, when it could have been addressed in at most 3 posts. And the BLM post? Petty.
But Hrothgar outrage, giving them a lot of evidence and starting to come up with feedback and asking them for acknowledgement?
I've seen more words coming from the WoL.

Maybe they can't fix it in the meantime. Maybe they can't fix it come 6.2. But we deserve to know why without being treated like this.
If the "Sims Minigame" had 10 apologies with people scrambling and going haywire over theoretical problems, why can't Hrothgar have more acknowledgement of the situation when it's blatant what they did and how the fans reacted?

And saying "You guys are delirious" deflects the problem. Our demands may not be feasible to you, but it is not up to you to decide. It's up to SE to tell us themselves and treat us with respect. Because they were caught with their pants down, and we're not taking the usual response. We want something mature from them. More information. Better communication, and not sentences whose intention ends up being a debate between what they meant or didn't.
We want them to read what we posted and actually inform themselves. So that when they speak to us, even if it's to still tell us bullsh*t, it's at least done in a way we can understand. Not many people will be pleased by this, and they know so. But at least it will address the overall topic without just flipping people off.

Mods may be unrealistic and unhelpful bc we don't know their standards. But so many Hrothgar on PC feel like they have to use them to enjoy their character. That does send a message. One that, in any other circumstance, they wouldn't like to hear. They didn't like to hear it on plugins and 3rd party tools. So why would they like to hear it here?

What exactly is a "sorry" going to prove? Pretty much everyone has moved on, except for a few hrothgar players. Like it or not nobody really cares about this. Doesn't seem like many have "voted with their wallets" either as people are still on here posting. Hrothgar was/is a novelty race and always will be.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

What exactly is a "sorry" going to prove? Pretty much everyone has moved on, except for a few hrothgar players. Like it or not nobody really cares about this. Doesn't seem like many have "voted with their wallets" either as people are still on here posting. Hrothgar was/is a novelty race and always will be.

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Ok thanks you really obviously care about everyone in 14 having a fun time.
Literally nothing hrothgar players do will matter, are you blind?
"Vote with your wallet" lmao if every hrothgar unsubbed today it wouldn't matter. Yoship would be all "Oh well nobody wants to play a race we purposefully screwed over, guess we don't need to improve!". The entire community needs to give a crap and thanks to players like you and your valuable "its a niche thing who cares" input, the dev team feels 0 pressure or desire to improve.
People would not shut up about mviera and they exist and boy the dev team made it explicit that they were designed to get all the new hair options theyd add Endwalker on. The only players who care about hrothgar are hrothgar players so I don't know why you people feel the need to fill up threads with useless, reductiontionist bull like this.
Hrothgar players: Could you please make a real effort for us?
Every other race: Lol stop playing so I can get a new Ultimate every patch and exciting new fashion accessory emotes.
Thank you thank you so much for caring about all the players and making sure they get their moneys worth out of the game.
"Like it or not people don't really care" Oh no thats palpably apparent as it has been for the past three years. Thanks, so so much.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

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Okay, remember when I said I wasn't angry? Enough. I've honestly had enough of you.

"Sorry" is a minimum, but it would at least prove that they acknowledge the issues that they themselves have caused. Prove they've paid attention to the fanbase. Because otherwise all we had was handwaving our criticisms away and giggling like idiots when presenting Hroth Karen.

You mistake "complacency" for "moving on". People haven't moved on. This subject is still referenced in other threads by non-Hrothgar players. And I only made one thread, Churro. This one isn't mine. People just recognized "okay, the devs are being idiots" and are waiting to see what to do. But you do have people stating their piece and keeping the topic going so the devs can't turn a blind eye. If they do, then they're at fault.

The real question is where do you draw the line? Because two things:
a) What, the game must be at 1.0 levels of bad, with people leaving the game, for the dev team to fix something? Because let's be real here, we're constantly spammed with "You're just 2% of the population", what dent would that make?
b) Today it's Hrothgar, and it's "oh it's minor, it's nothing". Tomorrow it's Viera. The day after it's equipment. Then it's Roegadyn. Then it's Elezen. On and on. The more you let this go, the more you become complacent to things and don't say what you think, the more you'll allow for crap like this

And, dude, so much of this game was changed for so little. Remember Gunbreaker sound effects? How many people actually played GNB at launch? How many even complained at all? Yet that got patched.
Or better yet, you're gonna tell me Dragoons who care about Ultimate outnumber us? Because they likely don't, not enough to patch an uncommon, non-threatening, tiny bug that gave them the zoomies and make a big deal about it. Bc afaik, bug fixes are listed in the patch notes.

Your bar is so low it's drilled a hole to China.
You call us unrealistic and too hopeful, but you're just shutting people down.

And one last thing? It's still not up to you to decide whether or not the race is limited or not, that's for SE to say. Because you're just making assumptions that we can just refute with "no they didn't", and it'd cause a ridiculous loop. So far, they've only been vague about it, otherwise it wouldn't have been contested. Even when they say something like "We will never do this", fans ask and they do it. That's how we got Housing Time Limits, ffs!

You are not reasonable. You're just shutting people down. But the interest is neither on you nor on other stooges, it's on Hrothgar players. And those are the ones who have been keeping it alive and wanting the dev team to do something, even if it's just a statement.

They aren't going to make changes this soon though. Think at some point they get to fixing all this but far likely not till after fem hroth drops, at that point theres no more plans for new races, so really no excuse to not improve and expand on current races...

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Originally Posted by XiRon

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I have hundreds upon hundreds of posts in support FOR viera/hrothgar since 2019. I'm sorry, but maybe I have lost my patience at this point. Hrothgar (and viera) should have never been added to the game. If they weren't going to be done right then they shouldn't have been done at all. Simple as that.

Apparently, hrothgar players are getting their money's worth - as has been told to me in the past - since they are still subbed to the game. I remember seeing so many people threatening to unsub when they released the patch. They are still subbed!

Give me a break, I was one of the first in support of viera/hrothgar, and was in support updating and fixing both. You really think it's just hrothgar having to deal with lower quality assets? Have you seen the viera foreheads? Tails being cut off, the sparse inclusion of new hairstyles to the game, and every other compromise of quality? Heck, an entire Garlemald expansion was cut! I'm sorry, but I think making hrothgar ears clip through a few ugly hairstyles is the least of their issues.

I feel like I should explain. This is a thread about hrothgar and our, very likely, unlikely wishes and dreams by 6.2 if not yknow THIS expansion. Not 7.0. Not female hrothgar exist in 8.58. Not 20 years after they added more pores to middy faces. This expansion. So I don't understand why nonhrothgar feel the need to point out how unloved hrothgar are. Apart from ANY TIME a hrothgar player says "hey its like so lame brand new additions to the game dont work on muh boi" everyone and their mother says some "you play hrothgar please neck yourself because YOU are halting dev time...playing a race they added to the game"-adjacent comments.
Its is ABUNDANTLY clear how much the devs have not wanted to work on hrothgar, no one here is blind.

churro bro sometimes you just need to learn to stop talking

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Snip because this is a link and you can read the post yourself.

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Sturm, this is the thing.... This thread is about.. Our wishes for 6.2. It's OUR speculation of what could be added, it's what WE want for 6.2. You can be in support of us all you want, but the second you almost try to minimalize the issues we have? Lower quality assets my ass. Im sure you can deal with your tail being removed from armour for one piece of armour that you might not wear. Because guess what, we too. Have a tail, that gets removed when we wear this armour. We too, have terrible assets from heads that were literally reshaped to fit garbage hairstyles to body textures that make 32 bit look detailed. Sparse introduction of new hairstyles? I haven't had a new hairstyle since I started to play this game. Im happy with that. But when I'm given options, and the options are just displays of laziness and mediocrity from either the developer's side or the artist's side that are so obviously just ports of unwanted hairstyles because guess what...

MOST HUMANOID HAIRSTYLES DON'T FIT ONTO FACES WITH MUZZLES.

The thing is. We don't care if you were 'one of the first'. Because to those of us that have played for less time... We really don't care, it's not a race. All I care about is that the race that literally got me to buy the game is treated as well as the other races and not left to the side like some unwanted stepchild. This forum is not here for you to almost downplay the issues that we are pointing out about our race. This thread is for people to state what they'd like to see, improvements to HROTHGAR. Read. Hroth-gar.

Put simply... You are talking yourself into a hole, and we really aren't going to offer you a ladder to climb back up. You can't be talking about hairstyles and hrothgar in the same sentence and trying to make out that your hairstyle that will probably be locked behind RNG upon RNG that might be good, but might be absolute garbage is MORE IMPORTANT than the general fidelity of an entire RACE.

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other... Imagine knowing that there's people out there that think that way about you. But you wouldn't know that... As a race whose Male counterpart was only added due to FAN DEMAND. You'd think you'd be more in support of... Y'know. Other races getting the treatment that the fans are asking for.

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Originally Posted by Karowolus

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other...

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The playerbase is honestly just as bad

We already have to deal with furry comments, because people just think furries are degenerates and can't come up with original jokes of their own.
We already had to deal with Viera players whinging that our race stole Male Viera from them.

Why is it that we have to deal with people insisting "Oh the devs designed this race to be like this in the first place, get over it"?

So much in this game had a design in mind and it got changed halfway through. So much in this game changed because the fans asked. Hell, this game only exists because fans asked and showed support for improvements. If you're such a player and you're that old, you'd know so:
- Male Miqo'te
- Female Roegadyn
- Genderlocked gear
- Now people are asking for Genderlocked gear to be removed, and they're slowly working on it
- A Gunblade-wielding class
- A Scythe-wielding class
- GPose and its utilities
- FFXI-style Bard Performance
- Improvements to older or controversial content (Eureka and Blue Mage)
- VIERA AS A WHOLE

The devs said nothing about us being designed this way on purpose on official statements. And if they were designed on purpose, it still doesn't matter because so much of this game was changed already due to fan support. So literally, what the hell. That's such a garbage statement to make, it's frankly an insult at this point. It's nothing more than gatekeeping and discrimination. One that grows worse because the devs keep dismissing us altogether. And that's where I pin the blame on: the devs should know that their silence and the way they've been treating us makes us too easy a target. It just feels like bullying in an MMO. It's not even toxic, it's just ridiculously sad. To know that you're going to be mistreated by the fanbase on Character Creation. To know that you're going to get told to "shut up and take it" by people who don't even know what it feels like.

Because we get it. A race is more than just coding or tweaking 3D polygons. But holy crap, listen to yourselves!

Honestly at this point it just feels like picking on us is too easy. So much for the good and inclusive community people insist on throwing at new players.

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Originally Posted by Karowolus

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They were never meant to be a full race from their inception, and that's where the issues stem. Don't worry I have made sure to include viera when I say I don't think hrothgar should have been added anymore. I like viera. The fact of the matter is the game would be better off without either, at least until it would have been sustainable for them to do the races right. Still, they are added, and Yoshida already addressed the matter. Getting anything in that patch is wishful thinking, getting an apology is probably the same, in my opinion. I mean, I won't rule out that they could get something sooner than later, but realistically speaking, I'd say you all might get a hair with ears by next expansion - if you are lucky. Who knows though, maybe Yoshida hasn't ruled out a hair with ears showing in an update sometime this expansion. I am in support of viera/hrothgar getting updates, but after three years of hoping for something of quality, I came to the realization that that is unlikely to ever happen, and thus the races should have never been added.

The reality is, they are a limited race. Even if Yoshida hasn't outright stated they were "limited" specifically, doesn't change that fact. They were never meant to get hairstyles OR headgear (not even glasses). Even when they said they would get hairstyles they were supposed to be racial specific. Hrothgar having to fantasia to switch their wig was acceptable from the outset. Now, obviously, I think SE underestimated how much people would have wanted to customize their hrothgar, but that's beside the point. They were designed in a corner, and now it's supposedly excessively difficult to update them the 'right' way. He definitely shouldn't have tried to placate the hrothgar community with those styles, however viera were getting hairs (of also suspect quality, just fit better on a viera head) and he probably didn't want hrothgar to feel left out.

The game was in a different state when they were added. I do think SE made an error in approving viera/hrothgar. It was their "last chance" to add races, and this good intention has turned sour. Granted, covid was right around the corner, and they had no way of knowing it. That simply made everything more difficult. Viera/hrothgar are part of the reason their development schedule is slowed, and that is a fact explained by Yoshida himself on how costly races are. Like, I'm sorry, but it's a fact. I also thought male viera shouldn't have been added so soon, and was against the prospect from the start. Now we have male viera who are just as limited as their female counterpart. So I am in agreement with many hrothgar players on that front. Without male viera maybe it would have been more plausible to update male hrothgar or female viera. Also, it wouldn't have set the precedent for female hrothgar - which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

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That's the rub, isn't it?

Like, hear me out.

Yes, hairs are not as straightforward as modders make it look like. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a modder, I don't know if SE has strict standards, I don't know if a Hrothgar walking around with hair is a strain on anything. Making a mod for hair is easy, but it's not clear-cut. But SE didn't expand on their standards. All they gave us was "it's too hard" and ran away.
Yes, Hrothgar is a different race, not everything will fit. They need to work on things to fit, but they say stuff doesn't fit their criterion.
A criterion which isn't applied equally; they claim to dislike clipping... or at least, that we the playerbase don't like clipping. But even the final boss of Endwalker clips through itself. And some Hrothgar hairstyles clip through gearsets. It's not abnormal, many hairstyles do if they're long enough.

It's clear they need to overhaul our races, right? I mean, they're poorly designed to begin with, the it's done is a complete mess... And I've stated this before: I think that is why they're changing the races and some graphics.
I just think that by focusing on other races first and just throw low-end crap at us is going to hurt them in the long run. Because it's more and more stuff they'll need to address.

It's obvious it won't come in 6.2. Not such a sizeable change to the game. They NEED to overhaul how these races are, but for that they need time and resources. And what I've been saying so far is:
1 - They need to understand that the fans actually do want that overhaul
2 - They need to allocate resources for it
3 - They need to prepare themselves
Because what we got in 6.1 shows they didn't prepare, allocate time and resources. Just operated blindly.
We KNOW it's a drain. But it has to happen eventually. If it doesn't, then this will never change, and that isn't fair.
It obviously won't come in 6.2. But if we don't say anything, such an overhaul won't EVER come. You saw how 6.1 went. If we don't say anything, odds are they won't do anything at all.

The problem lies in communication, which is both sparse (they don't give enough\not often) and negligent (it's not transparent and misses the point). And given other topics, this one caused a large uproar. Yet BLM had a post, DRG had a post. We just had one comment.

On Viera, I don't want to exclude them. It's just that their situation hasn't escalated like ours has.

Just keep in mind though. You have good points. It's just that you essentially say "It should have been better, but it's not, so deal with it" when saying that we were designed like this and get over it. If I told YOU that, you wouldn't like it either, would you?

Churro, none of these things at this point really matter anymore. While everything you've said is most likely true, the fact that hrothgars have been neglected and viera has had the spotlight is undeniable. Viera is the more customisable race. Male vieras are a thing.

Now shift the work on hroths, please. That's all that we ask. If the problem is the head, release the head customisation at the aesthetician. If only existing haircuts are added to all heads, make them good looking and let us keep our ears. If no race specific haircuts are made, LET US KNOW, and if they are, make them available with every head. Headgear would be nice for at least for the artifact sets. Square has had the time since hroth release to see what people want with them and now act surprised? If they have no interest in the race they should say it out right.

Hrothgars are filled with bad design but that is not an excuse to continue to do things badly.

...how often will I (and other people for that matter) need to keep saying the same thing over and over?

Because seriously, this has derailed into the same usual dumb loop that we've had in 3 other threads.

Are people even reading what we write? Because this stuff's bloody obvious by now, just pay attention and read.

...So re-railing it back. 6.2's coming up eventually, I wonder if they will re-enable ears on the hairstyles they added. It's as simple as a boolean switch, so unless I'm missing something on their critera or standards, it should be easily done. Clipping is... unfortunate, but a part of virtually every 3D game afaik.
It's the bare minimum fans asked for after 6.1. So I'm with OP, they could at least re-enable those. If not, I wonder what sort of problems such a change causes that they'd be unwilling to do it. Surely it can't be polygon count? We don't even have ear animations o.o

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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I seriously doubt the devs read the English forums, let alone the cms. Maybe a moderator comes in here on occasion to read a post or thread after a flood of reports. You all probably need to start compiling your feedback on Twitter, then it might get noticed. It's been three years, and Yoshida was "surprised" by the feedback. Let that sink in.

They do need to overhaul the races, but that will take quite a bit of time. No it won't happen in 6.2, and I doubt it will happen anytime this expansion, frankly I doubt it will happen next expansion either - for viera/hrothgar at least. As I said prior, hrothgar are a novelty race to SE and meant to be so. I don't think they have any real intentions on actually overhauling the limited races. To me it sounds like they have dug their feet in, either you all get faster hairs with no ears, or you wait for a significant period of time for an occasional style. No elaborations, and the silence tells me they have zero intentions on streamlining this process (if it's even possible) anytime in the foreseeable future, and I suspect female hrothgar will be in the exact same boat as male hrothgar. On top of the fact that more frequent updates sets the precedent that they are expected to actually support viera/hrothgar more in the future. They could probably make hat hair for viera for example, and even make more headpieces work, but that would set that precedent that they are expected to do so from then on.

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Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi

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Viera were ignored for pretty much the entirety of ShB. Male viera was flooded on all platforms, and is objectively a more popular request. The big thing with viera is: they are popular in Japan. If any feedback is going to reach them it's Japanese feedback and Twitter spam.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

snip, also curse 3Kchar

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I do let that sink in. Churro .-. my whole posts so far have been calling them out on that.

And tbh I'm gonna wait and see. The new race lift is gonna be after 6.3, right? That won't be enough, nowhere near enough, to deal with Hrothgar and Viera. Issue is, if they don't have any intentions of overhauling us, they should say so. That's literally all we want to know: for them to come clean and be frank with us.

They did dig their feet in. Both of them. If they come and state "Yeah, sorry but you guys are out of the equation", then there will be our answer. We'll be satisfied on that front. But then we'll have every right to point and say "Yeah. And we're discriminated for it". Until they do, though, people will keep nagging them over and over. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. But at least one will help reverse the tide of mistrust that came with 6.1, not just Hrothgar. Housing, BLM nepotism, Adventurer Cards, PvP being bugged to hell and back tenfold...

They probably don't read the forums other than just passing comments. It's how they got Reaper; he specifically said the Western community asked for it, not the JP one. So there is some level of awareness about what we write. And even so, JP did at least point out how they felt. With less posts than us, but JP doesn't really care either. They tend to post on their own social media, which SE does pay attention to.
But that doesn't mean we should stop trying altogether. They want feedback, they got their feedback right here, so don't they dare say they didn't get any.
In the end, the final thing we'd question them for is if they're paying attention overall.

Also, Viera weren't ignored in ShB. We got Male Viera, how do you think that happened? They listened. A lot of Viera players badgered SE for them when they had enough bothering Hrothgar players for "stealing male Viera". That didn't come out of nowhere. They just didn't get fixes. For the reasons you yourself mentioned. But they did listen... just not what they were supposed to >w>
And that's what a lot of people end up criticising those who demand Female Hrothgar so much: You saw what happened to Male Viera. After 6.1 are you SURE you want that?
Besides, this ain't no Viera thread. Viera have issues, but, and I say this again, the situation has escalated on our side. If Viera wanted their stuff addressed, they have every right to do so in their own threads. And they'll have my support there.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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I should clarify, female viera were ignored throughout ShB, it wasn't until the very end of the expansion that they even said that they were looking into adding hairs. For that matter, the hair that was made for viera is of suspect quality, like I said. I was there waiting for hairstyles on viera for two and a half years, and that hair was all we got. Male viera were just dropped on us one day, supposedly being done in some devs' free time. Viera even get their ears cut off in reaper form, not that they are the only ones who had that happen to them: au ra get their horns removed, and tailed races lose their tails - even though they said that races would have unique reaper forms.. so much for that.

I don't know when that racial update will be, I don't really follow SE's liveletters, but if it's coming that soon, that is honestly surprising to me. I am glad for it in any case if it's true. Viera/hrothgar getting a full on overhaul - anytime soon at least - I definitely seriously doubt.

It doesn't matter if Yoshida made that statement or not, people would be nagging him regardless for an update. It would literally make zero difference, and I'm really not sure what an empty "sorry" would accomplish either. For that matter, it would require them to admit fault. This is how the race was designed from the start. You all getting an earless hairstyle is a bonus in their view, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

snip

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Yeah, and they weren't the only ones. None about what you said makes Viera any different than Hrothgar. The differences come in Endwalker proper, and especially the escalation of 6.2.

And what we want isn't "sorry", it's transparency in their replies. Because "It's too hard" and leave doesn't exactly say anything. So much in this game was also "too hard" and they did it. So why pool all the fuss on races?
Plus. It's clear that what we need is an overhaul. Like you said, it's unlikely to change how we're done. And I agree: it seems all it will be is a texture upgrade.
So it's less "Oh we're sorry that we can't" and actually explain to us why it is they're choosing to single us out. More than whatever theory we can conjure, more than just tell us "it's hard, period". We want to know why it is, and if there really is nothing they can do. And if there is, why aren't they doing it?
Is it textures, polygon count, PS3 artifacts, engine issues, issues with staff number, money being allocated?

They'd still be nagging him, sure. It's why I said "damned if you do, damned if you don't". But if there's any effect at all it would have, it'd certainly reverse some of the mistrust the playerbase has on him.
Because one thing is him dropping an answer and leave, another thing is him dealing with a situation very poorly. He's always been throwing and dropping answers. This time the situation caught fire. So one statement from him with actual recognition of the people that came forward WOULD speak volumes more than whatever they have done. But at that point, Churro, it really is up to you to trust in that. It's not up to me to convince you that it will. It won't work on everyone, but it would work to appease just enough to matter.

Still. It's obvious the game is dropping in quality anyway overall. Blind is anyone who isn't seeing it. As you said, it's not just on Hrothgar, nor just contained to Viera. It's spreading, slowly, and it'll reach a lot further than just two races.
But I maintain what I said. If no one says anything at all, that quality will continue to drop harder. If there's something said, at least they can't justify it with "well, people didn't say anything, so we thought it was okay". It wasn't okay. So if you know it's not okay and will still do it, then you should explain your reasoning.

And keep in mind, that "no one said anything, we thought it was ok" is exactly why Yoshida claims to have been so surprised. We weren't loud enough. So now we're writing. If he ignores it, it's on him.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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They have already been transparent on why hrothgar is the way they are - multiple times. Their unique head design is where the problems arise. Each head has to be done individually as they all have different shapes. They can't just copy and paste a shared hairstyle on each head like you can with viera - funnily enough "unique heads" is the same reason they exclude headgear for viera, I digress. It was designed that way from the start. What more is he supposed to add? It's why the CM that posted in the initial hrothgar hair thread simply reposted that statement. There is most likely nothing new to show hrothgar players past what was said. The only thing new I suppose they could really add is whether they decided to keep going with earless styles or the lengthy wait for a proper hairstyle.

People keep going at it as if the issue at it's core hasn't already been addressed.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

They have already been transparent on why hrothgar is the way they are - multiple times. Their unique head design is where the problems arise. Each head has to be done individually as they all have different shapes. They can't just copy and paste a shared hairstyle on each head like you can with viera - funnily enough "unique heads" is the same reason they exclude headgear for viera, I digress. It was designed that way from the start. What more is he supposed to add? It's why the CM that posted in the initial hrothgar hair thread simply reposted that statement. There is most likely nothing new to show hrothgar players past what was said. The only thing new I suppose they could really add is whether they decided to keep going with earless styles or the lengthy wait for a proper hairstyle.

People keep going at it as if the issue at it's core hasn't already been addressed.

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If it was addressed, why this reaction from the fans, hmm? Why the outrage, all the memes?

What's worse is that the devs being this complacent does end up causing stupid comments and crap from the rest of the community. They can't control online interactions, but one word from them would go a long way to shut down quite a lot of the crap we have to face from players. The power of a statement is quite strong.

And unfortunately, they weren't transparent. Nowhere near as you think.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

If it was addressed, why this reaction from the fans, hmm? Why the outrage, all the memes?

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Because the Core issue: the Heads, has yet to be fixed.
It was addressed, we know about it, but the outcry wont stop or change until it is fixed.

Acknowledging it and telling us they are working on it is nice and everything...but it wont stop the outcry. People will just keep being cynical and just rekindle their dissappointment.
"Why are they only NOW doing something about it, when will it be done, is it gonna take another X-years" it wont stop, Until its fixed.

In other MMOs I played I always played whatever "beast" race they have. I started FFXIV with free trial, so Hrothgar option was locked out from me at the beginning. After purchasing the full game and endwalker, as a sprout I consumed my one and only Fantasia that I got from MSQ to hrothgar. When I chugged that potion I didn't know this choice will lock me out from 99% of wearable hats. I contacted GM and they refuse to revert my changes.

Now all that left is regret, broke and broken. Might start a gofundme account to fund my transformation back to Roegadyn, anyone want to sponsor me?

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Originally Posted by Heh

In other MMOs I played I always played whatever "beast" race they have. I started FFXIV with free trial, so Hrothgar option was locked out from me at the beginning. After purchasing the full game and endwalker, as a sprout I consumed my one and only Fantasia that I got from MSQ to hrothgar. When I chugged that potion I didn't know this choice will lock me out from 99% of wearable hats. I contacted GM and they refuse to revert my changes.

Now all that left is regret, broke and broken. Might start a gofundme account to fund my transformation back to Roegadyn, anyone want to sponsor me?

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Careful. A lot of people without an ounce of neurons say "Oh you knew what you were getting into, you can't complain".

The game should really just tell you about the limitations when they try to make a Hrothgar or Viera. Not everyone will find that information so readily available. It's always an asterisk on fan pages.

Yknow what really gets me though? The fact that they wanted hrothgar players feedback but waited until 2 minutes before the patch dropped to show us their "hard work".
Viera got to see their new options MONTHS before Endwalker dropped. They could've said "hey these are about what hrothgar can expect in 6.1" or they coulda showed something in February when they had another pll. They couldve been getting months more feedback and waited til the last minute because....why? If you really had no idea what hrothgar would want you have myriad ways to ask. You could make a post on twitter, send every hrothgar a moogle mail, like theres options available if feedback on your most difficult race needs fans input.
As others have said the only good option was Snow and yes while it does suck that you have to pay for Snow it was an event reward eons ago and ofc if any male hroths wanna fanta to fgar in 7.55 they get Lightnings great style. Now ofc we need them to fix ears this millennium so fgar don't get preemptively screwed out of ears on a style that costs money.

It honestly just sounds like Sturm is just trying to convince themselves rather than convince others. At this rate I'd ignore their input because all they're really doing is just bringing everybody down. This is a thread to be hopeful and to share ideas, along with ways in which hrothgar could be improved in the upcoming updates. It's not a place to point out what people have been told and that players straight up don't believe.

Put simply, this thread isn't a place for you to be a debbie downer and regurgitate the bullcrap that both the Community Reps and Yoshida have said to us. This is a thread where we want to come up with ideas and give SE a clear thread wherein they can accrue feedback rather than having to wade through an argument caused by one person wanting to settle for mediocre rather than quality.

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Originally Posted by Karowolus

It honestly just sounds like Sturm is just trying to convince themselves rather than convince others. At this rate I'd ignore their input because all they're really doing is just bringing everybody down. This is a thread to be hopeful and to share ideas, along with ways in which hrothgar could be improved in the upcoming updates. It's not a place to point out what people have been told and that players straight up don't believe.

Put simply, this thread isn't a place for you to be a debbie downer and regurgitate the bullcrap that both the Community Reps and Yoshida have said to us. This is a thread where we want to come up with ideas and give SE a clear thread wherein they can accrue feedback rather than having to wade through an argument caused by one person wanting to settle for mediocre rather than quality.

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The most awkward part is that she's been at it for 3 threads to my knowledge. Just seems like whenever we deign to be hopeful and provide Yoshida what he needs, with the full awareness that he's this dismissive, you'll always have Churro around telling others "I'm sorry but they won't, they don't care, this won't work".

I told her before: it's not our job to convince her otherwise. Not her, nor anyone else.

If they care, they'll care. It won't please everyone, but be honest here, what ever has? NOTHING in life pleases everyone. Get over yourselves. Getting anything is still ten times better than what we got.
And if they ignore it, it's on them. They and the morons defending them keep pinning the blame on Hrothgar players. No more. If they ignore it, then they can't ever say anything about us.

The ball is on their side.



My hope is that something will be said in the PLLs into 6.2. If they don't, refer to the "if they ignore it" sentence.
I wish the ears would be visible on the garbage hairstyles we had (+ the Snow one, but that's not garbage).
So now we wait. We wait and we see. And if nothing, absolutely nothing, comes out of it, the fault is not on us. And that alone speaks volumes. Not just to us, but to the rest of the community:
Quality is dipping. It's notorious on us, but it will spread. It already has. It's all about where you yourself decide to draw the line.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

So now we wait. We wait and we see. And if nothing, absolutely nothing, comes out of it, the fault is not on us. And that alone speaks volumes. Not just to us, but to the rest of the community:
Quality is dipping. It's notorious on us, but it will spread. It already has. It's all about where you yourself decide to draw the line.

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Snipping to this because this is important... If they do it to us. What's to stop them from doing it to other races? We don't know what they're doing, and neither do you.

Nothing is gonna come out of it. They don't care about one of the least played jobs.
Why spend time on updating Hrothgar models when 10 times the players fantasia daily back to their basic looking miqote and au ra females?

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Originally Posted by Karowolus

Snipping to this because this is important... If they do it to us. What's to stop them from doing it to other races? We don't know what they're doing, and neither do you.

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Yeah. Quality has been dipping for some time now. I just think that 6.1 brought it into the spotlight with mishap after mishap. It definitely opened my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

Nothing is gonna come out of it. They don't care about one of the least played jobs.
Why spend time on updating Hrothgar models when 10 times the players fantasia daily back to their basic looking miqote and au ra females?

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Because its likely they didnt want to design it as they did in the 1st place, but they had to cut corners for time & money.
So now they SHOULD correct this. 1% or 2% of the population plays them? So what, those are still people who play and want & deserve more then what they got. And have been told there is more coming...but the devs are dragging their feet/taking a long time to deliver.
Probly more people would be playing, and even go back if design issues were fixed.

Its possible Hrothgar wont get addressed in the 6.2 Live Letter, but I dont believe "they dont care"
They are just working at a snails pace...which is annoying.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Its possible Hrothgar wont get addressed in the 6.2 Live Letter, but I dont believe "they dont care"
They are just working at a snails pace...which is annoying.

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Their entire reaction to what they created with the "new" Hrothgar hairs before the patch went live and the tone-deaf response to the backlash afterwards (along with the radio silence since) told me all I needed to know. It's obvious to me that they don't care. But they should. Maybe at some point in the past they would have, but they clearly do not now.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Their entire reaction to what they created with the "new" Hrothgar hairs before the patch went live and the tone-deaf response to the backlash afterwards (along with the radio silence since) told me all I needed to know. It's obvious to me that they don't care. But they should. Maybe at some point in the past they would have, but they clearly do not now.

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Im sure they do care, yes the "New Hairs" are bad, and I think they found them humorous.
But they need to do better and not take shortcuts. They need to put some REAL time into it. as much as Id like it done sooner, My last ditch faith in them is gonna be with these "Upgrades' In the future Roadmap. Sooner done then later, but that will be my ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by Karowolus

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Accrue what feedback? As far as I can tell, the same thing is being "discussed" as in every other hrothgar thread. People don't seem to even believe what Yoshida says in the first place, so what does it matter if he makes a statement? It's obvious if he was to make a statement in 6.2, it probably wouldn't be to many hrothgar players liking. Maybe if he gets on his hands and knees and begs for hrothgar players' forgiveness? That he is dropping everything so he can put ears on a hrothgar hairstyle?

As if I am the one settling for low quality, I am on these forums constantly posting for quality.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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From my view, it seems more like people are demanding rather than being "hopeful". I'm sorry if, on occasion, I try to make a reality check. Frankly, in my opinion, at this point, Yoshida shouldn't have even bothered with hrothgar hairs in the first place. A good intention turned sour. I don't fault him or SE if they truly are ignoring hrothgar players. I tried to back you all at the start, but it has gotten really out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

Why spend time on updating Hrothgar models when 10 times the players fantasia daily back to their basic looking miqote and au ra females?

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Oh yeah? It's not like every single hrothgar pretty much looks the exact same with the exact same face, even more clones than miqo'te!

Rejoice! I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Accrue what feedback? As far as I can tell, the same thing is being "discussed" as in every other hrothgar thread. People don't seem to even believe what Yoshida says in the first place, so what does it matter if he makes a statement?

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That's...completely fair, actually. I am, admittedly, one of those people who are talking in circles on this long after it has been discussed to death, and who doesn't believe him. At this point I'm mostly just venting. Anything constructive was probably said in the days following 6.1's launch. I have nothing left of value to contribute to this I suppose. You are probably 100% correct on this. I very well might not believe him even if he does come out and make a statement. Sometimes saying nothing is best. They've already done enough damage, in my opinion. No sense in digging that hole of theirs deeper.

Getting fixes in 6.2 is unlikely, that's true. But Yoshida saying something that isn't tactless in the live letter won't hurt him, hm?

Is hroth hair still tied to the face? If so, does this mean I am correct in assuming that when Square adds new hroth hairstyles to the game, that you need to purcha$e a fantasia to access them? Or did they change things recently?
I'm asking because I genuinely am amazed if it's still this bad. And anyone who bought a fantasia for that awful new hair deserves a refund.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Is hroth hair still tied to the face? If so, does this mean I am correct in assuming that when Square adds new hroth hairstyles to the game, that you need to purcha$e a fantasia to access them? Or did they change things recently?
I'm asking because I genuinely am amazed if it's still this bad. And anyone who bought a fantasia for that awful new hair deserves a refund.

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In 6.1 they did the amazingly difficult job of giving hrothgar access to both of their facetypes original hair options. But we still do not have access to all base hrothgar race options because each hrothgar head was designed deliberately obtusely to limit character options in a game that proudly advertises new options for glam or style every patch. It would sure be nice to know we'd be getting all racial styles in 6.2 but we can't even have that because "its hard" and new hrothgar options are allegedly going to take longer because 3 years just wasn't enough time.