Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Quor

That'd be the job right there. Maybe we can crowd-fund one of those high-quality foam builds of the new circular Tenka so the cosplayer can Fart of a Thousand Cuts while on-stage and maybe get that changed back too.

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I thought about a lvl70 styled Samurai Glamour though with a:
回
天
on the back, so Yoshida and friends know what's up^^

" Alninio: The only thing i'd bring back is Kaiten "

Another one.... Another one... Another one...

1. turn Tsubamegaeshi into a follow Up to Iaijutsu, just how it is with Ogi Namikiri right now
2. turn Senei and Guren into buffs for Shinten and Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

This solution really overcomplicates a very obvious solution to maintain a niche that is an very excessively rare problem currently?

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Sorry if I'm coming back to this post but it really isn't that overcomplicating, basicly turn Ikishoten more into Warrior's Battlecry, just that Shinten becomes Senei and Kyuten becomes Guren.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

when you decide to not hold your OGCD's. Need to not hit something? just don't cast your AoE it's that simple, which is very rare situation.

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This is what I mean by saying "This is what the Dragoon does", The Dragoon would've to not use those skills, The Samurai on the otherhand sees the Situation and thinks 'I should not use this skill, so I use that skill instead'

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

It just sounds like two 2min discount Kaiten cooldown activations for Kyuten and Shinten. But, we can agree to disagree.

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errr no? again think of it more like Ikishoten turning into Battlecry. My 2 Solutions free 3 skillslots by reincorperating them into approcriate buffs/changes to existing skills (which is enough to bring back Kaiten), now true my Solution would result into the restriction that you can't use Senei/Guren outside of Ikishoten.. but c'mon both 3skills are on 2minutes anyway. by merging the Shohas, you get rid of the ability to utilize the Meditation Stack resource in an explicit single target situation, which again totally fine for the Fantasy of the Dragoon, not so much for the Samurai.

I'm sorry if I trigger anger, which is not my intention. I just want to offer insight about my thoughts for the future of FFXIV's Samurai. I also wish you all a Merry Christmas.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

**snip**

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We just have to agree to disagree.

Your 1st suggestion is sensible. Your 2nd one is not, which is Ikishoten buff? turning Senei/Guren into buffs? to apply to Shinten and Kyuten? Even if interpret Ikishoten turning Shinten/Kyuten buttons into Senei/Guren buttons through activation saving 2 buttons? I can see gameplay changes no one asked for? Normal Shinten weave cast obstruction which can be detrimental to our rotation, Guren/Senei now locked not behind 25 Kenki but Ikishoten which can be very bad for Fates and Dungeons when mobs die before we can cast all of it and making us lose a resource vs being able to hold it.


Compare that to the solution that many other Samurai's unanimously suggested and agree upon...

• 1. Iaijutsu and Tsubame are combined as 1 button
• 2. Shoha and Shoha II are combined as 1 button and skill
• 3. Senei and Guren are combined as 1 button and skill

Square's Button Bloat excuse? now can be solved by picking solution 1,2,3 or two solutions or all three solutions to give back Kaiten. And no matter what they pick? it wouldn't change our gameplay rotation at all except giving back Kaiten. And let me put an emphasis on " Rotation".

Your suggestions are unnecessarily overcomplicating a otherwise simple problem that plenty Samurai's suggested and many, even those on the Balance Discord already unanimously agree upon. And this is coming from Samurai players that quite literally " Breath Samurai rotation ".

But, then again any of this is a pipedream that Santa can't give us for Christmas, or any other mascot for any other Holiday.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

We just have to agree to disagree.

Your 1st suggestion is sensible. Your 2nd one is not, which is Ikishoten buff? turning Senei/Guren into buffs? to apply to Shinten and Kyuten? Even if interpret Ikishoten turning Shinten/Kyuten buttons into Senei/Guren buttons through activation saving 2 buttons? I can see gameplay changes no one asked for? Normal Shinten weave cast obstruction which can be detrimental to our rotation, Guren/Senei now locked not behind 25 Kenki but Ikishoten which can be very bad for Fates and Dungeons when mobs die before we can cast all of it and making us lose a resource vs being able to hold it.

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I see so you do not use Ikishoten and Senei/Guren in conjunction, even though both are on a 2min cool down and will comeback at the same time..okay.. though I use Ikishoten and Senei/Guren in conjunction with my Big Kahuna Combo: Ogi Namikiri > Senei (for Single Target) or Guren (for AoE) > Kaeshi Namikiri (available every 2minutes) and it's quite a tasty combo! but let me clearly explain what I want with "turning Ikishoten into Battlecry":
looking at Battlecry: Battlecry gives you 50 points and turns Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos and Decimate into Chaotic Cyclone
looking at Ikishoten: Ikishoten gives you 50 points and activates the Ogi Trigger, so since Ikishoten and Senei aswell as Guren are on a 2minute cool down, they always comeback together if they're used in conjunction thus turning them into buffs for Shinten and Kyuten should be taken into consideration

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Compare that to the solution that many other Samurai's unanimously suggested and agree upon...

• 1. Iaijutsu and Tsubame are combined as 1 button
• 2. Shoha and Shoha II are combined as 1 button and skill
• 3. Senei and Guren are combined as 1 button and skill

Square's Button Bloat excuse? now can be solved by picking solution 1,2,3 or two solutions or all three solutions to give back Kaiten. And no matter what they pick? it wouldn't change our gameplay rotation at all except giving back Kaiten. And let me put an emphasis on " Rotation".

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I do not get the Button Bloat Excuse.. since you have to make the decision: Shoha or Shoha II and same with Senei or Guren, how this fact is ignored is really telling, but combining Shoha/Shoha II turns them into Geirskogul but cycle, same with Senei/Guren which then would be like Wyrmwind Thrust which would result that the Samurai would've 2 Resources entirely AoE which would betray the Job Identity of The Samurai!

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Your suggestions are unnecessarily overcomplicating a otherwise simple problem that plenty Samurai's suggested and many, even those on the Balance Discord already unanimously agree upon. And this is coming from Samurai players that quite literally " Breath Samurai rotation ".

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Ahh I see breathing the Samurai rotation, maybe that's the Problem because since April'22 (and let's be honest) we're nauseatingly spamming Shinten like a bitch, which can corrode the brain, while we agree that Tsubamegaeshi shall be rolled up into Iaijutsu (because Ogi already does that) we must not reduce entire resources into sole Situations, that's what the Dragoon already does. Having a decision to make is what makes the Samurai.
So it is not to breath the Samurai rotation, because frankly the Samurai Rotation since 6.1 is a rotten piece of bullshit, we all agree that 6.08 Samurai was peak gameplay (even without guaranteed crits) but it is to breath in general, which FFXIV's Samurai isn't able to utilize in combat anymore and that sucks

You don't want to combine Shoha/Shoha II or Senei/Guren because you don't want it to be like any other move that's a default AoE without a single target variant. And you're saying somehow that's SAM's identity(when there are several jobs that also have a single target and AoE variant of an action). But at the same time you suggest making Ikishoten to basically copy what Infuriate(Battlecry) does.

yeah counterquestion: Is Ikishoten an Attack?
No, you use it for 50 Kenki and the Ogi Trigger, there is no decision to make, you use it when it's available/approcriate to combo into.

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

(when there are several jobs that also have a single target and AoE variant of an action)

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you're talking about NIN's Bhava & Toad and WAR's Fell Cleave and Decimate, those are more an equivalent to Shinten and Kyuten, which is why I see the solution to address "Samurai's Button Bloat" in Warrior's Battlecry, I mean Senei is just a bigger Shinten on the same cooldown as Ikishoten, so why not reincorperate it that way? My Reasoning that this Stuff is an Important Part of the Samurai's Identity is founded by My Aikido Training, correct me if I'm wrong but: If you try to recreate/recapture/design a concept/playstyle/whatever and someone else who works on the real thing of what you recreate/recapture/design giving you the thumbsup, that's an indicator of doing the correct thing.
Which is why I see the Importance of Kaiten,
which is why I see the Importance of being aware of my surroundings,
which is why I see the Importance of Discovery and Mastery.
The DevTeam of FFXIV nailed those 3 points perfectly with the Samurai up to 6.08. Though since 6.1 it's just a Shinten Spamming Bitch and then seeing people wanting to haggle and bargain those Core Aspects in order to get back their Kaiten irks me sick.. wait Battlecry is Infuriate!?.. ugh damn you Samurai Champloo!!

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I see so you do not use Ikishoten and Senei/Guren in conjunction...

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Yes and I said " for Fates and Dungeons when mobs die before we can cast all of it ". Specially when Group-Fate-Farming in say Elpis, this can happen, not all the time, but at times can because I like to line up mobs before I use Guren. Made worse by your suggestion since it's all loaded on Ikishoten activating everything vs just it hinging off of 25 Kenki. Emphesis on it being just " Dungeon mobs and Fates however... "

Most my activity is in Savage, and claiming I don't use Ikishoten and Senei in conjunction? Suggests I don't know how to play SAM or my rotation. Quite the subtle insult... that I'll take on the chin...

My FFlogs is public, and there is XIVanalysis. I am not flawless... but I know some Samurai's apparently use Meikyo + Yukikaze 1st then Kasha and Gekko religiously both as opener and in general which is very suboptimal. Found that out reviewing a free-styling Samurai from a friends static who dealt apparently less damage then a ranged-physical at times during P8S... wondering why they have issues meeting the damage check.

I admire your passion for sticking to your point, though we can't see eye to eye on it except for wanting Kaiten to return. Just agree to disagree.

Suppose “Kaiten” does return…why not merge tge AoE abilities all the same all while retaining to most SAM abilities without as much ability pruning?

I can slightly agree to the logic then again I’ve always been in favour for pruning only enough but not a whole lot.

Never Forget!

the thing with the demands we have to bring back Kaiten differ and that's bad, though I think it was on the 2nd Page of this Thread where I shared my Interfaces and regarding the changes looking at my AoE Interface, literally nothing would change but Kaiten would return^^

again, I'm sorry if my view points translate to insults, and I apologize for ewoking that kind of agony(especially at this time), though that "turn Ikishoten into Infuriate" could bring a change that makes the return of Kaiten a guaranteed possibility, by the way: that "turn Ikishoten into a trigger for Senei and Guren", isn't my Idea, it was from xAFROx, I just love that Idea so much that I will share it with everyone who cares about the Return of Kaiten^^

me personally I do not care about Savage, if a Job isn't fun on max lvl it's bad, simple as that and having Kenki solely to mitigate Shinten Spam instead of giving you the ability to boost all of your Weapenskills frankly sucks.

+on one thing I have to correct you, we not only want Kaiten back, we also want to roll up Tsubamegaeshi into Iaijutsu^^

regarding the pruning, I'd say that the Ikishoten rework to act more like WAR's Infuriate kinda does that already^^ since Senei would be on the same button as Shinten and Guren on the same button as Kyuten, which would free up 2 buttons, one for the Return of Kaiten and the other for the Single Target Ogi on lvl92^^

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Never Forget!

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Gal! you have no Idea xD I used that Video to learn this Move in real life^^
with that said Happy Holidays ^-^

first, another explaination of why Kaiten is important:
Kaiten gave the Samurai the ability to enhance their Weaponskills with Kenki and through excellent Resource Management the Samurai was able showcase Mastery.
Without Kaiten, Kenki is mainly there for the Samurai to spam Shinten like a Bitch.

now to why I feel the need to write this post:
with the PLD Rework and the Devs action to remove DoTs I have the feeling we're going to see the Extinction of DoTs. Now I rather wanna see the removal of Positionals because let's face it(..lol) when you're going to guarantee to hit the Positional you use True North to secure it, so why not remove positionals and delete True North, another old mechanic deleted another button saved!
But I have the feeling that I think too deep about that stuff so just remove all DoTs and leave the Community in the vague hope that we might get a DoT based Job in future.. xD yet on a more serious note, after the PLD rework and the DoT removal.. what do I think comes next? maybe they come for Samurai again and rework higanbana to be more like what Trickattack is right now!(ugh.. yay).. funnily the current Trickattack is basicly the old Disembowel, a debuff to the target that serves no one but the initiator.. yay, seriously I dislike the new Trickattack, it's not ruined, but just controversal to me.
Higanabana change prediction: Check
Now do I want Higanbana to be changed and do I like the Extinction of DoTs: No, my only suggestion/hope that may come as a Change to Higanbana would be that Kaeshi Higanbana would count as it's own DoT, once they merged Iaijutsu and Tsubamegaeshi, just how Ogi Namikiri works right now.

I see a Crossroad of Destiny here:
if we're lucky, all Positionals bite the dust
if we're unlucky, all DoTs will bite the dust

and it all goes down from there

I know that I start on commenting on a PLD Change in the DPS Forum but it sparked a hopeful thought* about that regarding future Samurai Changes.
It's true that I dislike Divine Might on Paladin since it makes me question why can't I have Divine Might as a Trait all the time, but that's besides the point that I saw.
with Divine Might getting triggered after Royal Authority alongside Atonment Stacks shows me that the Game is able to handle 1 Skill that triggers 2 Buffs (which might not be the first example of a Skill doing that but the most recent!)
Now what does this have to do with the Samurai? simple! Ikishoten currently gives you 50 Kenki and triggers Ogi, what if Ikishoten also would trigger a Buff that turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren? 2 Buttons saved enough to bring back Kaiten, which could be changed to guarantee the next Weaponskill to be direct hit instead of 50% more damage so that the combat designers don't cry because Auto-Crit Midare/Ogi are getting old. What do I want? I want to responsible to hit big, which was what Kaiten was enabling, giving the Samurai the Ability to make the Big Hits hit Bigger!

*to prevent disappointment, I do not believe in my hopeful thought, because in reality this game's Combat Direction is headed towards unmitigated braindeadness until they add Auto-Play via an Update.

Sorry if I drift into additional questioning the Kaiten Removal again but I naturally oppose the Kaiten Removal so:

• In 6.1 they took Kaiten, which resulted the Kenki Resource not granting the Samurai the ability to boost their weaponskills through Resouce Management, No just Spam Shinten like a Bitch.
• The Ninja got Trickattack reduced to a Personal DPS Boost (like old Disembowel worked) and Mug is the New Trickattack.. on 2minutes! yay..
• Speaking of Dragoon.. Jump got changed in 6.1 so that it triggered Mirage Dive on the same Button, which funnily got reverted so Mirage Dive is it's seperate Button again (Hey! Devs! I would honestly appreciate a reintroduction of Kaiten, you reverted a Dragoon Change, so could revert the Kaiten Removal aswell, please?)
• Looking at Life Surge, it's quite similar to Kaiten with that it makes the next Weaponskill stronger, though it's on a (now 40 second) Cool Down and does not interact with the Dragon Gauge, why didn't that Skill already got cut and potencies adjusted?
• Looking at Paladin, Fight or Flight, again, no Oath Gauge Interaction, why no cut and readjust the potencies..

.. because that's what they did to Samurai, they cut Kaiten, even though Kaiten had Kenki Gauge Interactivity that shaped the Samurai Gameplay on a Foundamental Level.
Well what's the use of Kenki now? Spamming Shinten like a Bitch

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"Whaaat? Having trouble hearing you! 'Bring back Dismantle'!? You want Dismantle back? Ok sure we can bring Dismantle back!"

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I'm sure that this is along the lines of what happened. On behalf of Machinists everywhere, we thank the Samurai community for inadvertently advocating on our behalf.

well I also played some other Jobs and realized Samurai is just like White Mage.
Samurai spams Shinten, White Mage spams Glare.
Since my Main is on Cerberus I decided to get through DRS and get that Cerberus Mount, thus I yanked that Unusable Kaiten Button off from my active interface (since I play on Controller) so Kaiten yanked and hello True North, that I can use with Meikyo Shisui (which I also had as macro but the Meikyo Charge fucked that macro.. thx SE). Then only the ranged Spot was free, well playing through it as DNC then and got the Mount! I reduced my Aspectations to at least my Character looks Good and that carries me through a FFXIV Session alongside Loporrits and maybe playing Alts. I'm not so bewildered about the PLD rework but Goring Blade is kind of a waste now in feels. I also checked out SMN.. lol plays like a Pre-released Overwatch Character.. Though I attended a GameJam and got asked how I would the Kaiten Playstyle translate in an 2D enviroment and I worked out a plan within the bounds of my abilities for that. I also wrote stuff to better articulate why the Kaiten Removal is Bad. I wrote a script parody and even got to a content creator with it. 7.0 will be a Make or Break Expansion since the Bore has Spread noticiply with less things to enjoy by the day.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Never Forget!

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https://i.imgur.com/hSigXg6.jpg

Patch 6.4 dropped not so long ago and still kaitenless

Although i started playing quite recently, just the last august, my main goal was to get samurai asap and i quite did. Thus being stated it becomes clear that im unfamiliar with kaiten gameplay and havent been aware of its once presence until this march when i found out that it was actually a thing and the thing was big. That made me wonder why its been removed and after record-short terms of searching i figured out that its far from me being the only one who was wondering. Long story short i've recently read this and another one thread over the last day and man do RyuuZero loves drg and therefore most of skill merge counterarguments was about "it would be the same as those 2 skills that we already have on another job". Some might agree some might disagree but as i read further i came to a simple yet quite effective solution on button bloat which also would solve the same mumbling about accessibility issues.

So. Lets look truth in the eye. If ones would really be concerned about reducing button bloat and keeping variability at the same time (ST/aoe (especially for sam as its the main topic here)) we would get a "One Button To Rule Them All".
BEHOLD! THE STANCE SKILL! Specifically oGCD ST/AoE stance swapper with nearly no cooldown (something close to thm element changer). This little guy should appear as soon as you get ur first aoe weaponskill (which then would be considered as a trait for specific weaponskill). And as it comes from said above this button simply changes your ST skills to their AoE counterparts which are now also "*cannot be assigned to a hotbar".

With this solution we actually merge skills but instead of losing variability "because now everything is aoe wtf" we now have one or another for a single button that does about the same thing but mostly with different potency, therefore one button = 2 weaponskills which empties like a dozen of buttons (actually only 6 if im correct about it) leaving some place to put this stance skill, bring back KAITEN and drop any other new things they will want to throw into us (that are not like lets say ST ogi since its gonna be swapping with current namikiri back and forth). And GCD oGCD wont be a problem since nearly all of them share their cooldowns with their counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Damokl

So. Lets look truth in the eye. If ones would really be concerned about reducing button bloat and keeping variability at the same time (ST/aoe (especially for sam as its the main topic here)) we would get a "One Button To Rule Them All".
BEHOLD! THE STANCE SKILL! Specifically oGCD ST/AoE stance swapper with nearly no cooldown (something close to thm element changer). This little guy should appear as soon as you get ur first aoe weaponskill (which then would be considered as a trait for specific weaponskill). And as it comes from said above this button simply changes your ST skills to their AoE counterparts which are now also "*cannot be assigned to a hotbar".

With this solution we actually merge skills but instead of losing variability "because now everything is aoe wtf" we now have one or another for a single button that does about the same thing but mostly with different potency, therefore one button = 2 weaponskills which empties like a dozen of buttons (actually only 6 if im correct about it) leaving some place to put this stance skill, bring back KAITEN and drop any other new things they will want to throw into us (that are not like lets say ST ogi since its gonna be swapping with current namikiri back and forth). And GCD oGCD wont be a problem since nearly all of them share their cooldowns with their counterparts.

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I've actually started using this AoE/ST stance few weeks ago and it is really good for some jobs. The way I implemented it is pretty annoying to set up, but it would definitely be worth it if devs made simple, native ST/AoE switch button, obviously not mandatory, but for those who want it. But IF there really was button bloat problem, then I'm afraid this wouldn't fully solve it.

I use this setup for most of my DPS, but for tanks and healers I don't, since it becomes more complicated, because there is more abilities that are neither ST or AoE exclusive.

Healers have ST damage/AoE damage (granted, these 2 categories are just 3 buttons, but still) and then bunch of AoE and bunch of ST heals, so you have 4 main categories and bunch of skills that don't fit any of them on top of that. Maybe you could have DPS skills on both layouts, where AoE layout will have only AoE heals and so on. But then you would need to swap layouts mid fight, which is not the way I use them.

Tanks on the other hand, have bunch of mitigation and other utilities which you need to have available at all times. I've looked at my PLD, and even though I could make these layouts, I would still need extra hotbar for all the mitigations. So it really feels like it's mainly DPS that benefit from this.

To give better idea, here are my SAM's hotbars:

https://i.imgur.com/qjgcpk0.png

So for SAM, I've saved 6 buttons. Theoretically, I could maybe put some other skills to the 3 empty slots in my AoE layout, but then I would need to be swapping layouts mid fight, which I really don't want. This way, I just swap layouts in dungeons, whenever I fight trash or boss.

While this is certainly good idea, it has some limitation (but possible upsides definitely outweight them). For example, MNK has Meditation which turns into forbidden chakra (ST oGCD) when you have enough stacks, but Enlightment, which is AoE counterpart, doesn't have the meditation part. So in AoE layout, I need to keep both meditation (which turns into ST oGCD) and AoE oGCD. But of course, if they really natively implemented this, I'm sure that these things could be easily fixed.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I use this setup for most of my DPS, but for tanks and healers I don't, since it becomes more complicated, because there is more abilities that are neither ST or AoE exclusive.

Healers have ST damage/AoE damage (granted, these 2 categories are just 3 buttons, but still) and then bunch of AoE and bunch of ST heals, so you have 4 main categories and bunch of skills that don't fit any of them on top of that. Maybe you could have DPS skills on both layouts, where AoE layout will have only AoE heals and so on. But then you would need to swap layouts mid fight, which is not the way I use them.

Tanks on the other hand, have bunch of mitigation and other utilities which you need to have available at all times. I've looked at my PLD, and even though I could make these layouts, I would still need extra hotbar for all the mitigations. So it really feels like it's mainly DPS that benefit from this.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

While this is certainly good idea, it has some limitation (but possible upsides definitely outweight them). For example, MNK has Meditation which turns into forbidden chakra (ST oGCD) when you have enough stacks, but Enlightment, which is AoE counterpart, doesn't have the meditation part.

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Yeah i wanted to mention about exceptions but seems that i forgot, i suppose utility abilities and spells should remain as they are. But for healers this scheme for sure would be quite harder to do

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I've actually started using this AoE/ST stance few weeks ago and it is really good for some jobs.

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Your post reminds me of the " Samurai Stance " idea I brought up to go to the far extreme to save up to 6 buttons, theoretically speaking though. Post was " Here " <- I doubt even if Square compresses skill-kits in this manner? that they would provide more nuances and depth to each Job as they have been making Job dumber.

I just want Kaiten back... I'm not even asking for a new expansion/buff/beast-tribe/haircut/glamour/new-race/Ultimates/Extra-Raids/better story, You have people on the General Forums asking for a Fat-slider and for characters to be able to get pregnant with probably like a " give-birth-emote ". Meanwhile me right... asking for the bare minimum of something that already existed to return... just Kaiten, I swear to god I'm literally asking for just 1 button how is that to much to ask?

it apparently is to much to ask yes... it just is...

Bruv if people across the forum come to a similar thing without even knowing someone already was talking about that exact thing or even more improved of what they thought (like me seeing yours) how do SE havent come to this idea :skull_emoji:

Besides that, ive read that thread to the end and came to a conclusion that Ryuu by this point really being obsessed with 2 things:
a) dragoons' Geirskogul
b) having entire rotations with ST/AoE of basically the same exact skills on separate buttons instead of accessing them from a single button with a single button that changes all of your ST rotation skills to their AoE counterpart.

Like man at this point doesnt even get the idea of the stance changer and skills being merged to one button but remain separate. He doesnt get the idea or should we say he disgusted of the idea of "ST rotation set turns into exact same but AoE rotation set by a single oGCD" and glorifies having all of those skills as an eyesore and yet again a button bloat. While in reality 4/5 cases you do not even need 1/3(aoe) of those weaponskills and in that 1/5 case you do not use 2/3(st) unless you minmaxing-speedrunning the instance which is not the case for casual gameplay and especially my currently 65lv sam ass (this statement also applies to my Hagakure usage or should i say 'not usage').

Instead what is he saying can easily be applied to dancers who have the required fluidity for weaving ST and AoE skills back and forth alltogether and separately (and which in fact i enjoy a lot) thus they have that mentioned previously variability to make decisions for the second half of basic rotations (ST3/AoE3+ST4/AoE4 and fan and the order depends on that 50% chance of getting required buffs GCD1 for GCD3 and GCD2 for GCD4) and at this moment im confusing even myself so endure or just skip this part. We samurais dont have that option, the only connection between our ST and AoE rotation is iaijutsu
I also found this 2017 guide which is still absolutely relatable except kaiten (and hagakure for me specifically)
https://i.imgur.com/0qq0ydt_d.webp?m...fidelity=grand

Long story short every job so far ive seen by now has in total 26 job-specific assignable buttons be they skills, spells or abilities so not so many jobs would benefit from such stance concept and the least beneficial would be healers i suppose? And now that i give it a second thought the only idea of adding a button that lowers that number by 1/3 for 1-3-5 jobs out of all of them is unbalanced on its own. But dreamers do be dreaming am i right? Moreover its not like it is actually unbalancing potency-wise, just less buttons for some of them and the only real unbalance it would make is accessibility and its not that i blame people who cant do this and that due to buttons layout or any other accessibility reasons, me myself is not a pianist. I unlocked sage, assigned buttons, looked at those again and said hell nah, i leveled thm and unlocked blackmage, i looked at the job traits window and said hell nah not even trying to assign them, not my jobs, imma stickin to sam and dnc, slashin n spinnin

Also i have not a single damn idea about what his "That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh" in that thread is even supposed to mean and if he was talking about [Eukrasia] then its completely different and unrelated thing and moreover its literally just a buff (IS THIS A KAITEN REFERENCE?!)

Nah man, we need to consolidate buttons by removing Kaiten, there's no other way...

What? Combine Iaijutsu and Tsubame-Gaeshi? Are you mad? Combine Ikishoten and Ogi-Namakiri? That'll never work, anyway, we're keeping Senei, which is completely redundant and only exists to pretend Samarai gets a new skill at 72 instead of just upping Guren's potency with more drop-off or separating their cooldowns.

Also another workaround would be if they added prerequisite cone attack with like 50-100 potency to all those aoe/st skills which then would determine if skill gets more potency and deal bigger big numbers to one enemy or it would do its average big numbers but with drop-off for more enemies. (JuSt LiKe NaMiKiRi In ThE pVp MoDe tho it has no prerequisites, just hit n go, one enemy? huge number, many enemies? big number)

The biggest offender to me is that it's supposed to be replaced with Something. That's why they removed Kaiten, or should be the reason since it didn't solve the non-existing Button Bloat issue. Where is this improved gameplay everyone seems to not mention? all these " it was just button bloat " posters? " it's a button you press every time " one-liners, like where is this improved gameplay then? Cause I don't see it. I see a whole lot of Shinten Spamming and not much of anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

The biggest offender to me is that it's supposed to be replaced with Something. That's why they removed Kaiten, or should be the reason since it didn't solve the non-existing Button Bloat issue. Where is this improved gameplay everyone seems to not mention? all these " it was just button bloat " posters? " it's a button you press every time " one-liners, like where is this improved gameplay then? Cause I don't see it. I see a whole lot of Shinten Spamming and not much of anything else.

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— non-existing button bloat nor action bloat as many stated and may state again. And if something then players got even more action bloat and moreover we will still get more buttons and actions as we get more expansions and at some point there would be no choice except to trivialize existing skill/spell/ability setup for hotbars by putting different skills on the same buttons and trigger them under certain conditions. Players still can do in-game macros to put skills on skills like Ryuu did with ikishoten but imo its only the matter of time until it gets implemented officially

Kaiten had one big issue. You had to use it 100% of the time on your Iaijutsu or the potency would be a waste.

The animation of Kaiten was really appreciated by the community, and the effect of x1.5 Potency on the next attack was also extremely good.

On the last iteration of the Samourai, you had a huge difference between Minimum damage of a Midare (No kaiten, no crit, no DH) and Maximum damage (Kaiten, CRIT DH). (Of course this is all an example, nobody should use Midare Setsugekka without Kaiten first).

But, even if people tend to love that style of Gameplay, I think a Major issue did rise up to the dev team. Kaiten itself and the rigidity it brings to the class (Not doing damage if you don't use it correctly).

Why ?

Cause Kaiten is actually no different from Dark Arts in the principle (Press a button to upgrade next attack). The dev's team seems to have reached a wall on the evolution of the Samourai for the future patch and I guess that Kaiten was in the way of this evolution. Getting rid of Kaiten may allow them to modify what Samurai will experiment later on OR modify how you use your Kenki gauge.

If you think about it for just a second... Don't you think that managing the Kenki with various ability (Not only Shinten/Kaiten) can add a great depth to the class ?

I think that now that Kaiten is gone, they have more flexibility for the future.

But, should have they retired it like how they did ? No. Absolutely not. I agree with the community that it was a bad idea... If they had removed it in 7.0, along some rework, I don't think people would complain like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Kaiten had one big issue. You had to use it 100% of the time on your Iaijutsu or the potency would be a waste.

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That still doesn't make it a " Job Design issue " it makes it a " Skill issue " though... and we use it on Ogi Namikiri as well which doesn't make us use Kaiten on Iaijutsu 100% of the time... (where did all these non-Samurai players come from talking about something they barely used...)

I can apply your logic to any Job/Skill/Combo/Slidecast/Raidbuffs being miss-used or executed suboptimally, Kaiten is not unique in this sense... Making this as flawed of an argument as your Rigidity point, since this also doesn't stop any other Job from functioning either with rigidity or any limits put on them. Kaiten just meant that you had to weave it properly with Kenki management i.e players just suffer from " Skill-Issues " which also is not limited to SAM since SAM is not deemed as the hardest job ever. Even if you want to argue latency issues, MCH ranks higher on the list with this problem before SAMs Kaiten. It's removal should not have happened the way it did, that's about as much as I agree on with your post.

Miss execution of Kaiten is the literal point... where the game presents many ways for me to mess it up? But I choose to do it right and as perfectly as I can for a long period of time, resulting in Big Numbers, Big Crits, making it feel Satisfying. Compared to Shinten spamming? No matter how perfectly I exectute this into Raidbuffs? it feels weightless.

You'd probably have to partially nerf/merge some Samurai skills to make it properly work, but I think Kaiten could be brought back, IF it reduced variance by making the next attack a guaranteed Crit. I get why SE removed it (it feels bad when your big attacks don't crit, and it was a recognised problem with Samurai), but the animation and fantasy were arguably iconic to the job, and removing Kaiten was the wrong choice to make.

( Me before Kaiten removal )

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Xs0sXKR/SPIN2.gifhttps://i.ibb.co/fNdNp9Y/SPIN.gifhttps://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png







( Me after Kaiten removal )

https://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif


( Based on accurate in-game canon lore, true stories & testimonies. Obviously... )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

That still doesn't make it a " Job Design issue " it makes it a " Skill issue " though...

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Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

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That doesn't sound bad. I would much rather have 3 Kaitens than 3 pairs of identical skills we have now. Casuals will mash whatever buttons they desire anyway, and people who want to get good will accept the new challenge, even though the challenge is merely finding good keybinds. But if they finally merged the ST/AoE oGCDs, we would even same amount of buttons AND have all the Kaitens we want! Well, I personally would have one extra free keybind, since I still have Kaiten on my Shift + F keybind 'til this day. But imagine 3 different animations for each Kaiten though, that sounds really sweet.

But because you're just trying to shitpost with "gotcha" argument, since you're probably impatient for tommorow's patch, I recommend this video on Kaiten:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHj-1_Yn1U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

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Rich, " GNB main " talking about... another Job having too many buttons claiming they do nothing in particular... or Skill-Issue with 1 button to much on a Job they don't play? You gone tell us next that you played SAM in high-end-content when Kaiten still existed for you to ever have played with Kaiten to even contribute anything to the thread-topic? ( might be a trick question cause like ya know you like haven't? )

Regardless!! Lets uno reverse, by your logic we will remove 10 things from GNB, lets apply your logic. Oh the pickings lets see, remove...

1. Brutal Shell
2. No Mercy
3. Jugular Rip
4. Rough Divide
5. Bow Shock
6. Blasting Zone
7. BloodFest
8. Abdomen Tear
9. Eye Gouge

Delete " Camouflage " as the 10th thing turn it in a passive or something for the exciting gameplay that change will do (obviously). Definitely can't call it Skill-Issue or Button Bloat at this point, but I doubt GNB is now improved...

We debunked the non-existing Button-Bloat issue of SAM with even better solutions to reduce button bloat beyond three buttons without needing to change the gameplay nor removing Kaiten " ages ago ". Like... did you missed the memo? ( where do these players come from... )

We can only hope they will maybe give kaiten back in 7.0. I hate the current SAM rotation with all the shinten spam. I've come to hate shinten with a passion now, so much so that I hope some day shinten is deleted and wiped off the face of the earth. I've pretty much become a caster main now, because this current iteration of SAM just isn't fun.

I still miss Kaiten. I will always be sad until it's re-added. Kaiten was a defining satisfaction feeling of SAM.

With the release of 6.4 it becomes evermore clear to me that FFXIV's Hook is the MSQ and maybe some Bonus Features but Gameplay ain't one of them..

though, let me address my DRG Talk again because due to misunderstandings I face ridicule that makes the official FFXIV Forums look worse than Twitter.

my DRG Argument was in response to merging skills that had a fine but notable difference: ST&AoE, which is a difference that the Samurai utilizes to its adventage.
The DRG does not. the DRG has 3 Line AoEs with Fall off Damage where the Samurai has 3 ST skills with AoE alternative skills, so 6 skills but Samurai also has different resources which justifice them.

Regarding 6.4: Big Tenka is funny but I still want Cone Tenka Back. But I have the feeling Big Tenka was made for P12, just a feeling..

Now to my Observations and well.. demands sound a bit harsh but it has been a longtime now and Samurai is like the Overwatch 2 of FFXIV Jobs at this point:

Crits don't feel special anymore, which could be, in the Samurai's case easily remedied with Kaiten just applying Direct Hit onto the next Weaponskill BAM!! Direct Crit Midare and Ogi for 20 Kenki, yay~

• Return of Kaiten, 20 Kenki for the Next Weaponskill to get applyed Direct Hit
• Cone Tenka Goken
• Ikishoten, not only enabling the Ogi Trigger but also turning Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren.

The Song the rings the wish of the Return of Kaiten shall not be silenced

Since i haven't said that previously and i haven't noticed someone else said it as well i want to mention one crucial thing about "direct hit kaiten", it is the fact that DH only does 25% dmg increase no matter what. I would rather appreciate much more the completely opposite, some skills become guaranteed direct hit and Kaiten makes that skill is now guaranteed crit hit which on paper can go as high af since crit hit rate actually increases not only the frequency of crits but also damage of crits which then make kaiten really feel impactful increasing ur dmg by at least 40% if we say someone did not invested in crit at all. But in fact we would get crit overflow since we temporarily get enough of 'crit rate' stat for it to increase our crithit chance by flat 100%. And then after crit chance reaches 100% all 'crit hit rate' stat in players' possession in fact becomes 'CRIT HIT DAMAGE' stat (marvelous humongous numbers)

To summarize all above and make it short
They give us:

• all 'guaranteed crit' skills are now 'guaranteed direct hit'

• kaiten is back and it grants 'guaranteed crit hit'

We get:

• MIDARE and OGI

• if we crit it becomes MIDARE!! and OGI!!

• if we Kaiten (and we will Kaiten) it becomes MIDARE!! and OGI!!

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY9A2Yd3834

We give:

• happy yet edgy samurai approving nods

• prob grateful thankful claps here and there

• end of whining

and it almost looks like they half-reverted changes for sam scale to pre-6.1 by adjusting those in more appropriate way than they did or they can make Kaiten to be 'Third Eye' passive upgrade so 'Third Eye' now eats 20 kenki and grants Kaiten buff AND if Kaiten attack is landed 'Third Eye' cd is refreshed therefore they keep our button bloat reduced, action bloat reduced and our rotation slightly shifted to contain third eye AND they also can bring back spinny-winny animation to be 'Third Eye' animation

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8480725150.jpg
New Tome Weapon obtained.. and it clips through the arm.. just great..
but you know.. playing Samurai is only sad if you know that there was more than Shinten Spamming at Bosses.