The MSQ Endwalker Trial Bosses are WAY too hard for newer players to FFXIV

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

So often it does not feel completely fair when u die and sometimes I am completely lost why I died, it’s also the first mmo I play which has a huge focus for healers to do damage which may be a factor. Also a smn has no self heal to speak off so u are completely at the mercy of the healers attention.

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Pretty sure you got one heal. It's not great.. but you got one.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

So in the end I expected to do better In EW as we are all on even lvl playing field, but found out that this was definitely not the case everyone seemed to plow through it with no comments and I died multiple times completely lost why I died, it was def not a good experience and I felt like a complete idiot, and decide to watch YouTube explainers to be better prepared next time.

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Boss Fights in FFXIV all follow the same pattern:
1. "Here are the things I can do". Usually done one at a time and at a recoverable pace. If you die here you should know after a wipe or res exactly what you died to. I can also suggest if you have no idea what you died to at this point, please ask. Some people will be silent, some might even be rude, but in general people will gladly tell you so that you can avoid it next time.
2. "I will do my things in random combinations now but there will always be a correct place to be or a correct movement to do to survive". This is where the actual fight begins. You have to know the proper reaction to the initial mechanics, but also understand how they combine. I.G. A knockback means get to the center, but a knockback and a half arena AOE means get to the proper SIDE of the center.

3. (occasional) "this isn't even my final form!". The boss will change into a new physical form and now either do NEW mechanics back to step 1 or it will do the mechanics faster or slightly changed. Just a ramp up of complexity. Adding on another mechanic to a combo or doing a weird version of it that either does the opposite of what it used to do or doing it slightly differently.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

I personally don’t know how to fix this, it seems that veteran players are so used to the mechanics that’s very easy for them, but newcomers are completely lost. Maybe it’s because the mechanics are all the same and there are no real new surprising mechanics and after some veteran players aren’t surprised anymore ?

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People who have been here for a while and went through the whole game when the content was newer have had these mechanics drilled into them again and again. THey know a gather, they know a split, they even know meta-knowledge like how the designers like to follow certain mechanics with certain other mechanics. I.G an AOE that drives everyone away from the boss and then an AOE that makes everyone go under the boss, or vice versa. You can't really "fix" an experience gap without compulsory tutorials, and I don't think anyone wants those.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

I understand that this in msq cannot be done as everyone should be allowed to find out by its self, but maybe the extreme script like nature of ffxiv is a factor it seems if u do it enough the fight will be trivial as there are no surprises and u know exactly when and what will happen, which in effect makes it so that if u join a party which has done that fight a couple of times a newby is completely lost and the veterans are bored.

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Honestly part of the entertainment as a Vet is meeting newbies and showing off how you know the encounter. Lots of us will do things in game to communicate things for you to do like jumping up and down where everyone is supposed to go for a mechanic. All I can recommend to improve your experience is ask people when you're confused. You seem to already have a good handle on patience. Dying really isn't all that bad in this game. It just costs a couple minutes. You can pretty much die multiple times in any encounter and if it's failed you get to try again from square one till you get it... just make sure you go into new dungeons with fully repaired gear.

No, not really...

Are you familiar with Steps of Faith? The ARR to HW final trial.
It used to have twice as much HP, with massive hit boxes on its feet that would one-hit KO almost every role.

Not using cannons? You're probably dead.
No using the Dragon Killers on the towers? You're probably dead.
Someone forgot to chain Vishap and you missed a Dragon Killer shot? You're probably dead.
You don't have LB 3 and Vishap is about to reach the final ward? You're probably dead.
Too many people died to adds and damage slowed down too much? You're probably dead.

Hope you're ready to commit to the 15 min fight all over again.

EW Story trials are no harder than Titania or Hades respectively. I don't know what to tell you...

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Originally Posted by Lemuel81

The trials were not too hard. The second one was a piece of cake. The first one, after you understand the mechanics a little bit was no issue. I think we downed it in one shot. We already have completely face roll dungeons, let's not ruin trials as well...

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I had a harder time with the second trial, mostly because it's light-colored effects on a light-colored battlefield and it doesn't play well with my glare sensitivity.

Also because I had three summoners in the party and couldn't see a damn thing around their pets.

By the time you're level 83, you aren't new. That trial does nothing you won't have already seen in MSQ content. The only thing that's new is the tells. It's still the same stack, tankbuster, floor AoEs, raidwides you've seen before. Learn the tells, die once or twice and get ressed, do them right the second time, and bam, you've cleared.

There's nothing wrong with dying or even wiping once or twice when attempting something for the first time. Make your mistakes, learn from them, and do better next time. It's not a hard concept to grasp or execute. And quite frankly, there should at least be SOME difficulty to the MSQ. Not EX/Savage level by any means, but enough that truly horrible players (like, the bottom 5-10% or so of the entire playerbase) either have to improve, or quit. If you legitimately need an "I can't do this instance, let me skip it" button, do the playerbase a favor and watch the rest of the MSQ on Youtube instead of going into instance after instance hoping to get carried.

I would like to preface what I am about to say with a caveat: I am not asking for the game to be made easier. I have gotten through all of my MSQ trials and a few raids with at most a modicum of difficulty. That is, until I encountered Venat. There is so much going on in that fight (even on easy mode) that it literally overwhelms me and then my condition (I have Parkinson's disease) flares up and I can literally no longer function at my keyboard and mouse. This tells me that despite the gear and abilities of our characters getting better, the game itself has become increasingly harder to beat. There is some truth in what the OP has said. That being said, it would be unfair for other players to have the game made easy enough for someone like me with an extreme condition to be able to complete it with ease. I may simply have to acknowledge that I can no longer progress in my storyline. You can't drop everything down to the lowest common denominator without sacrificing fun for a lot of other players. I will keep trying my best to win that fight and maybe someday I might beat it. For now though, I am just too frail to be able to last long enough with everything going on in that fight, to be able to finish it. The darn orbs powering her up always get me in the end.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

I would like to preface what I am about to say with a caveat: I am not asking for the game to be made easier. I have gotten through all of my MSQ trials and a few raids with at most a modicum of difficulty. That is, until I encountered Venat. There is so much going on in that fight (even on easy mode) that it literally overwhelms me and then my condition (I have Parkinson's disease) flares up and I can literally no longer function at my keyboard and mouse. This tells me that despite the gear and abilities of our characters getting better, the game itself has become increasingly harder to beat. There is some truth in what the OP has said. That being said, it would be unfair for other players to have the game made easy enough for someone like me with an extreme condition to be able to complete it with ease. I may simply have to acknowledge that I can no longer progress in my storyline. You can't drop everything down to the lowest common denominator without sacrificing fun for a lot of other players. I will keep trying my best to win that fight and maybe someday I might beat it. For now though, I am just too frail to be able to last long enough with everything going on in that fight, to be able to finish it. The darn orbs powering her up always get me in the end.

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This is why I don't see anything wrong with not having story mode fights jam packed with mechanic after mechanic. Sure, keep the harder fights for those that want the challenge and enjoy the frenetic mechanic dodging, no problem... but story mode doesn't have to be like that.

It's also why I am not sure if I will be returning after my break from EW. The story after 10 years is over and the game is changing. It might be moving beyond me, which is fine- and I hope it continues to grow and prosper... but I prefer the old FF, Bravely Default, Octopath style gaming and this style has gotten a long way from that.

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Originally Posted by Espon

There's nothing wrong with wiping a few times in order to learn mechanics. You don't lose EXP when you die, and you hardly lose any durability. The only thing wiping costs you is time.

I rather see new players struggle a little bit on a new encounter than complete everything in one try. That would be boring. I've had my share of wipes whenever I get a new trial or raid in roulette, but in the end we still manage to clear it in a few attempts. It's not like it's throwing extreme or savage level mechanics at you.

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lol No people RIP on the people learning. They did it when I started, and they STILL do it. Had people telling a guy he sucked the other day, he said he was new, they told him to quit. I felt sorry for him. No to most it is NOT ok. If this community wasnt so serious and hardcore all the time, let the newbies learn - maybe.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

I may simply have to acknowledge that I can no longer progress in my storyline. You can't drop everything down to the lowest common denominator without sacrificing fun for a lot of other players. I will keep trying my best to win that fight and maybe someday I might beat it. For now though, I am just too frail to be able to last long enough with everything going on in that fight, to be able to finish it. The darn orbs powering her up always get me in the end.

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Many players are altruistic to a fault in my experience. You only need to ask for help in the novice network or make a party in PF explaining your situation, and you should be able to get a team in no time. Even in the DF people will keep giving raises to people who can't keep up. If people can be carried in savage there is no way a normal trial can't be done with a couple of weaker links.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Many players are altruistic to a fault in my experience. You only need to ask for help in the novice network or make a party in PF explaining your situation, and you should be able to get a team in no time. Even in the DF people will keep giving raises to people who can't keep up. If people can be carried in savage there is no way a normal trial can't be done with a couple of weaker links.

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I appreciate your suggestions, but if I am not mistaken, Venat is a solo fight and can not be done with a group. I am basically stuck where I am with no way forward. I will just have to accept this and maybe do something else. Sadly, it pains me in the sense that I prefer gathering over combat in this game and getting access to new areas and new gathered items is locked behind the MSQs.

I wonder what would happen if you turn down the visual effects of the game and use the Trust system to fight Hydalen? If that would make things easier for you (Parkinson's) that's one way around it.

Just imho, you're not a "new" player if you are doing level 80+ content, or even really 70+ content.

If you boosted to start at level 80, well there's your problem. Working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Roxiu

I wonder what would happen if you turn down the visual effects of the game and use the Trust system to fight Hydalen? If that would make things easier for you (Parkinson's) that's one way around it.

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They are speaking of the Solo 1v1 instance that's part of the story quests, NOT the trial. You cannot have any assistance in that fight. It's always the player (WoL) VS Venat.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

I am basically stuck where I am with no way forward.

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You are using BLM, correct?
Have you considered trying to power level up a class with a lower skill floor? Swapping to an "easier" job would help.
I'd recommend:
-- WAR (it has fewer actions per minute, like BLM, and power levelling a tank will give you good que times).
-- If you wanna stick with a Caster (I wouldn't blame you, your glamour is very nice) I find both RDM and SMN are both much easier on the execution and don't ask as much of you when the boss starts throwing everything at you.


What's your iLVL?
It looks like you're using level 86 gear of about iLVL 539, correct?
Your BLM is 89. I don't know what the iLVL synch is on that duty. Could you try buying better gear from some NPC?
It looks like there is a vendor selling level 88 gear here:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2zbMPCS/Screen...732-Chrome.jpg


Also, your current materia is nice, but it's almost all Spell Speed. It sounds like your main problem is dealing enough damage in time, so if you're up for it you could also swap in some more Crit materia.


After you fail the solo duty... twice(?) it gives you the option to tone the difficulty down. What is the furthest you've gotten on the lower difficulties? I'm having a little trouble understanding how far you've progged from your description.


Also, have you looked up how BLM "works" in Endwalker?
I don't doubt your skills or capability to play it, I just know I can think I'm doing something right, when actually I misunderstood something and it's holding me back.


You're stuck for now, but we can help you through this~

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Originally Posted by ItMe

You are using BLM, correct?
Have you considered trying to power level up a class with a lower skill floor? Swapping to an "easier" job would help.
I'd recommend:
-- WAR (it has fewer actions per minute, like BLM, and power levelling a tank will give you good que times).
-- If you wanna stick with a Caster (I wouldn't blame you, your glamour is very nice) I find both RDM and SMN are both much easier on the execution and don't ask as much of you when the boss starts throwing everything at you.


What's your iLVL?
It looks like you're using level 86 gear of about iLVL 539, correct?
Your BLM is 89. I don't know what the iLVL synch is on that duty. Could you try buying better gear from some NPC?
It looks like there is a vendor selling level 88 gear here:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2zbMPCS/Screen...732-Chrome.jpg


Also, your current materia is nice, but it's almost all Spell Speed. It sounds like your main problem is dealing enough damage in time, so if you're up for it you could also swap in some more Crit materia.


After you fail the solo duty... twice(?) it gives you the option to tone the difficulty down. What is the furthest you've gotten on the lower difficulties? I'm having a little trouble understanding how far you've progged from your description.


Also, have you looked up how BLM "works" in Endwalker?
I don't doubt your skills or capability to play it, I just know I can think I'm doing something right, when actually I misunderstood something and it's holding me back.


You're stuck for now, but we can help you through this~

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Thank you very much for all those suggestions, ItMe! I really appreciate that! Sadly, the problem seems to be mostly my condition. I can get through the stages relatively unscathed but they take a toll as my condition is triggered by stress and emotion. By the time I get to the final part, where the orbs start rolling in, my brain goes into overload and that literally messes up my motor reflexes. I begin shaking rather severely. Picture Michael J Fox when he is experiencing his condition as an example of the kind of difficulty it can create. However, that having been said, I have been watching more videos and there may be some recourse at hand for me. At the very easiest level, in the final phase with the orbs, the damage taken by the spikes, can be out healed by one's own natural regeneration. If I plant myself right on top of Venat and then make liberal use of Leylines and Triplecast to cast as fast as possible and then priority target orbs that are closest or are not going to die due to the spikes themselves, I might have a chance at beating this fight. Of course, coupled with this is the need to pick a time where my condition is at it's least troublesome. It comes and goes and I have bad times and then not-quite-so-bad-times. I haven't given up entirely just yet.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

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ex1 is 100% stack all the time. there's not much to it. ex2 has a little bit going on, but if you've been leveling your character from lvl 1 you've done like 40 trials by now. Nothing here is mind shattering. It's all within the scope of a gradual difficulty progression. Wiping a couple of times on the trials is fine, pretty much every group that saw them for the first time during the first week wiped.

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Originally Posted by Torlala

No but people get abusive if you die more than once. And not just one person.

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On normal mod ? I would be curious to know what you call "abusive". 'Cause I've seen my fair part of wipes and mistakes ; and usually, people just rez or explain strats.

OMG, OMG, OMG......I finally got the Venat fight completed! I did the things I mentioned in an earlier post and my condition didn't flare up so badly tonight and I got it done! YAYYYYYY!

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Originally Posted by Eraden

OMG, OMG, OMG......I finally got the Venat fight completed! I did the things I mentioned in an earlier post and my condition didn't flare up so badly tonight and I got it done! YAYYYYYY!

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Congrats! Nice to hear you overcome Venat! :D

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

On normal mod ? I would be curious to know what you call "abusive". 'Cause I've seen my fair part of wipes and mistakes ; and usually, people just rez or explain strats.

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I mean, there is bound to be a wierdo not aware of FFXIV strict policies about harassment that will do it once. Generally speaking at worst people just quit, replacements come and it's usually clear after that.

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Originally Posted by Torlala

No but people get abusive if you die more than once. And not just one person.

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Some do yeah. Block and/or report them then. Most of the time after a few wipes I either see people try to explain what's going wrong, tell people to stop doing x, or if it's actually a full pug group then sometimes people just leave. I've only had a handful of non extreme pug duties where I've actually even seen more than like three wipes at all and one of those was Titania normal, and it was a while ago but nothing stood out as bad enough for me to remember it being said. I have had worst wipe fests in alliance raids where people can get feisty, but it's uuuusually just in general or at x role and I've seen people just get kicked every now and then.

I can count on one hand the times someone was genuinely nasty to me for messing up, and it was actually one clown specifically who spent an entire dungeon being rude and passive aggressive because I apparently wasn't using battle voice often enough lmao
Point being most people probably won't say much if anything, especially if it's only one wipe.

lol I love how there are always threads of people saying the game is too easy and threads of people saying some fights are too hard. Far as I'm concerned the balance is overall pretty perfect.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

OMG, OMG, OMG......I finally got the Venat fight completed! I did the things I mentioned in an earlier post and my condition didn't flare up so badly tonight and I got it done! YAYYYYYY!

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That's wonderful and I'm so very happy for you~
Congratulations and well done!

But EW is the 4th expansion. To reach it you must have played for a few hundred hours. There is nothing new about it. I'm honestly confused.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

OMG, OMG, OMG......I finally got the Venat fight completed! I did the things I mentioned in an earlier post and my condition didn't flare up so badly tonight and I got it done! YAYYYYYY!

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Congratulations!

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Originally Posted by Ransu

lol I love how there are always threads of people saying the game is too easy and threads of people saying some fights are too hard. Far as I'm concerned the balance is overall pretty perfect.

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I just shows how vastly different the level of skills is across players, no matter if new or old, and how most people like to think that their experience is an absolute.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

lol I love how there are always threads of people saying the game is too easy and threads of people saying some fights are too hard. Far as I'm concerned the balance is overall pretty perfect.

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Make sense, difficulty is rather subjective and more often than not in reality what people means is: I want a challenge that feel difficult but I can overcome without feeling frustrated.

Latency gave me the most problems on the trials and some dungeons. I get tired of being well out of aoe on my screen only to get hit by it.

Made a forum account specifically to reply to this thread.

I find this fight too hard. It’s the only regular level difficulty content in the game I cannot do, no matter how many times I try.

As casual content there is way too much happening on screen at any given time. I cannot see attacks being telegraphed - that are miles outside of my FOV. I’m zoomed all the way out. The screen is covered in spell effects and the bosses attacks are coming from past the edges of my screen.

“Turn off the spell effects” I hear you say - but why? Why should I have to!? Does that sound like good game design.

I’ll say agin this is mean to be CASUAL content, not hard mode, not EX.

“The game is meant to get harder as you level up” - Other people have said, but that’s idiotic. You hit a level of difficulty that’s comfortable and you stay there. If you don’t you end up with content clear rates on par with World of Warcraft, and how’s the playerbase for for that game doing.

I’m not saying the whole game is going like wow, just that this fight - is too hard for the level of content it’s targeted it. Every time it comes up in roulette it’s 30-40 mins of wipe after wipe. That should not happen in roulette.

I honestly can’t believe the snobbery of people in this thread saying THEY don’t have a problem with it so it’s fine.

Remember kupo <3 you just have to move and remember. That sums up all the events really. lol

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

Remember kupo <3 you just have to move and remember. That sums up all the events really. lol

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Did you read a word I wrote? I cannot avoid what I cannot see.

Side note;
Remember, not everyone is the same age as you, has the same co-ordination as you, the same good eyesight as you, the same reflexes or abilities as you, heck people might just not be as good at the game as you. That should not bar them from playing the game.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

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your friends should be playing fortnite instead

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Originally Posted by PixelRuin

“Turn off the spell effects” I hear you say - but why? Why should I have to!?

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Because you do not see the telegraphs. :)

Cheers

I like the difficulty of the EW bosses. I think everything else leading up to that is way too easy and doesn't prepare new players well enough.

Hmm but we need a Baseline, how low should this be at what level are we "good"?
Hydaelyn Normal is not hard but requires: you know stack marker, flare marker, cone tank buster, close tank buster (little AOE circle around the tank) and a little memory game (donut, cross and aoe around the boss, the pattern are very easy and repeat or go like "if 1 then next is 2" and so on).
The DPS check is incredible low and allow for uptimes around 50% and even lower wich is far, far away from extrem or even savage. You can take even as a "non-tank" a lot of stacks (2 damage up marker i think) before it gets problematic. I am not sure what the problem is, because the mechanics
or not fast paced, dps check is low, AEO damage from the boss is not enough... what is it ?

Tsukuyomi (Stormblood) was harder than this fight. The personal responsibility for each player is non existent. Where is the problem?
In my opinion it is communication in the party BECAUSE people forget this is a MMO. And with this we have the Baseline - dont behave as if this was a Single player game, it allows for a lot solo progress and this is nice but FF14 is still a MMO. My advice: talk with your party.

Oh and a little PSA: Wow is in bad shape BECAUSE the Devs disrespected the time of the player and the story is in a bad place and etc. many reasons together - not the difficulty or a single thing. It was a long term process with a lot bad things happen to game not ONE and many people saw it comming before it was "announced by the media".

My first time on the Zodiark trial took 4 different duty finder parties. I had watched a video so I understood what was happening after seeing it a couple times, but didn't prevent both healers and all Rezzres all dying at once for multiple attempts. (I was on RPR)

Not sure it needs to be easier personally, but I can see some getting very frustrated.

The game almost plays itself outside of high end content, I literally don't know how they could make it much easier. I mean we have a healing role that just spams one DPS button and doesn't need to heal most of the time. How do you go easier from that? Do we need to make the DPS button auto-cast, do you need a fail safe for if you accidently click off the auto-cast?

Maybe they just need dialogue options that straight up insta kill your opponent or skip dungeons if you choose a specific option. I'm not even being smarmy, with how some of the community here is maybe we just need like a Tourist mode as interactivity altogether seems like a difficult ask for some folks.

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Originally Posted by PixelRuin

“Turn off the spell effects” I hear you say - but why? Why should I have to!? Does that sound like good game design.

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Well yes.. there is an option built into the game to address your problem and it ONLY affects your personal experience. So you can adjust your experience to be able to pass the content and others can enjoy it as they wish.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

My first time on the Zodiark trial took 4 different duty finder parties. I had watched a video so I understood what was happening after seeing it a couple times, but didn't prevent both healers and all Rezzres all dying at once for multiple attempts. (I was on RPR)

Not sure it needs to be easier personally, but I can see some getting very frustrated.

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I think it took me a full lockout and over half of another to clear for me. 2 different groups. It's...definitely a lot to process at once. But yeah, even so, I don't think it needs to be easier either.

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Originally Posted by Espon

There's nothing wrong with wiping a few times in order to learn mechanics. You don't lose EXP when you die, and you hardly lose any durability. The only thing wiping costs you is time.

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I just wipe them intentionally until I get the full Echo buff, then work in getting them done.
If there was a skip option, I'd take it, especially in the role play ones.

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Originally Posted by PixelRuin

Made a forum account specifically to reply to this thread.

I find this fight too hard. It’s the only regular level difficulty content in the game I cannot do, no matter how many times I try.

As casual content there is way too much happening on screen at any given time. I cannot see attacks being telegraphed - that are miles outside of my FOV. I’m zoomed all the way out. The screen is covered in spell effects and the bosses attacks are coming from past the edges of my screen.

“Turn off the spell effects” I hear you say - but why? Why should I have to!? Does that sound like good game design.

I’ll say agin this is mean to be CASUAL content, not hard mode, not EX.

“The game is meant to get harder as you level up” - Other people have said, but that’s idiotic. You hit a level of difficulty that’s comfortable and you stay there. If you don’t you end up with content clear rates on par with World of Warcraft, and how’s the playerbase for for that game doing.

I’m not saying the whole game is going like wow, just that this fight - is too hard for the level of content it’s targeted it. Every time it comes up in roulette it’s 30-40 mins of wipe after wipe. That should not happen in roulette.

I honestly can’t believe the snobbery of people in this thread saying THEY don’t have a problem with it so it’s fine.

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If this is referring to the Hydaelyn trial then I can understand the complaint. The color palette for that arena and the effects can very easily create a washed out look that can make it hard to read telegraphs. I cleared the EX for it but for certain parts I just followed someone else since I couldn't always see what was actually going on. I don't why this is hard for people to understand though since there is so much push back against SMN and P1S I think, where if Titan is summoned at an inopportune time the spell effect can make it impossible to tell what color the orbs are.