I'm gonna say it. cause no one else will.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I’m a RDM who shamelessly selfheals in certain situations. Not because I don’t trust the healer, but because I see them either babysitting a tank who might be undergeared, or I know there’s about to be a ROUGH mechanic coming up and it requires more healing output than the healer can feasibly do, or I don’t trust *myself* to get out of AOEs fast enough to justify letting my health get to a certain point.

They’re specific situations that come up more often that one’d think, but I will gladly waste a GCD or two in those cases.

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I selfheal all the time when I am not familiar with the fight, it is likely I will screw up and I am not sure the healer in my DF are prepared for that.
I rather waste 1 GCD than taking a death debuff

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I selfheal all the time when I am not familiar with the fight, it is likely I will screw up and I am not sure the healer in my DF are prepared for that.
I rather waste 1 GCD than taking a death debuff

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And that's the core of why there is the available downtimes for healers in which they can add whatever dps they can without committing to a rotation and with the knowledge that even a simple dot and spam rotation helps; it's time that can also be spent catching up on healing.

Some narrow-minded healers seem to believe that this downtime exists just for casual healers who may struggle with healing and cannot be expected to be able divide their focus between catch up and bonus dps unless they are lucky and that it should be modified for more "advanced" healers so there are more options for those "pros" who watch Netflix or write books or check emails or whathaveyou during fights because they're bored, but it's little more than self-gratification.

Not every run will have downtime.
Sometimes the catch up will be harder.
Sometimes you'll have to rez someone.
Sometimes you'll have to sprint to safety, or pull someone else to safety.
Sometimes you'll be busy popping buffs, throwing aoe shields, using ethers, checking timers or typing.

The downtime dps is never guaranteed, no matter how pro a healer is because we play as a team and human error applies to the entire party and it's the entire party that a healer is responsible for keeping alive.

Claiming boredom with something that should be a healer's lowest priority and what has been declared a luxury by SE is unforgivable and annoying vanity.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Huh?
Huh?

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Ohhh, got them!

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Originally Posted by VictoriaLuv

maybe buffing other people. dps should be last resort. why placing buffs on others players. or debuffs so monster/boss takes more damage. dps opinions should be last thing., it isn't a healers thing have max parce.

did ever think of adding other things then dps. like support abiltiies

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Which is what I've already suggested. And AST already ticks one of those boxes and you'll see I keep referring to AST as the healer closest to where they should be.

But I think the solution should vary between each healer so there is variety and we get to satisfy different types of healers. WHM's downtime would be best suited for a big burst damage DPS, but is simple and maybe gets a little utility to keep it viable. SCH would be better suited as a DoT mage in its downtime. AST would be best suited to remain as an enhancer. SGE would be good to focus on augmentation through buffs/debuffs.

This way you satisfy a lot of different approaches and can be balanced against each other.

But ultimately what the buffs/debuffs will amount to is an overall rDPS. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of mechanics built around buffs and debuffs would be interesting and cool, but making any such things meaningful would require a lot of changes to existing encounters and game design.

Sadly people's obsession with rDPS is simply down to how the game is designed. Success and performance is based on how you react to mechanics, staying alive and the overall DPS. And mechanics don't use anything specific to your toolkits beyond dealing damage and not dying (or being rezzed if you do).

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Not every run will have downtime.
Sometimes the catch up will be harder.
Sometimes you'll have to rez someone.
Sometimes you'll have to sprint to safety, or pull someone else to safety.
Sometimes you'll be busy popping buffs, throwing aoe shields, using ethers, checking timers or typing.

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Every run has healing downtime.
-Use your healing CDs, instant oGCD casts, or Healing over time to slowly fill the health bars, when there is no damage incoming. Using Medica II or Aspected Helios without letting your HoTs do the healing is a waste of time and MP. You very rarely have to spam GCD heals to keep playerd alive, you have a wide array of oGCD abilities that are very strong with all healers. OGCD and go back to Dpsing.
-Swift cast Raise. Or with multiple dead people just stand there and Cast raise. It either takes less than a second or around 8. RDM are better at raising people en-masse than healers for raids too. Raise go back to Dpsing.
-You have movement tools for damage. With the new shorter cast times for our Nuke spells, Movement is much less of an issue. Move, go back to Dpsing.
-Our mitigation tools are all oGCDs we can weave into our spells, our buffs are all oGCDs we can weave into our spells. We can easily press them and go back to Dpsing.
-Using ethers? We don't need ethers. Use your MP tools which are all oGCDs btw, and go back to DPSing.
-Casting shields: The new abilities (Krasia, Exaltation, Aquaveil, Protraction) for Tank busters are all oGCDs. Regen healers get oGCDs shields (Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection) Ironically for shield healers they are GCDs (Adloquium and Eukrasian Diagnosis), meaning Regen healers can more easily Apply shields and guess what, go what to Dpsing.
-Typing? Does anybody actually type anything during combat that isnt just the occasinal quick heads up in a panic? Not sure this counts as part of our healing time.


You seem to believe Healing dowtime to be some sort of myth. There are extensive tools that prove that it isn't just check the average parser.

Also what isn't self gratification. This is a game for self gratification. It's a game. It's meant to be enjoyed. That's not very useful as a criticism.

Everything you just wrote applies specifically for you and not necessarily for all players, yet that doesn't seem important for you, ergo the vanity.

Can you promise every run or even pull will provide the same opportunities for every group and every player, even with excellent personal management?

Of course not. This is not a one-player themed game.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

snip.

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Tanks fail mechanics? Party wiped, play better next time.
DPS fail DPS checks? Party wiped, play better next time.
Healers fail to heal? Here 30s till the next big dmg, raise the dead ones, drink your milk, and don't forget your pacifier. You're doing great!

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

Tanks fail mechanics? Party wiped, play better next time.
DPS fail DPS checks? Party wiped, play better next time.
Healers fail to heal? Here 30s till the next big dmg, raise the dead ones, drink your milk, and don't forget your pacifier. You're doing great!

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I'm no pro healer, but I'm fairly certain "healer failed to heal" comes with more consequences than 30 seconds of "keep at it, champ" in any dungeon at all. And it definitely doesn't mean "moar dps then."

Again, here is the minority calling healing boringly easy, which is an entirely seperate and very PERSONAL issue that the player themself should look into.

If healing bores you, don't heal, and don't try to ruin things for players who are not bored.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Everything you just wrote applies specifically for you and not necessarily for all players, yet that doesn't seem important for you, ergo the vanity.

Can you promise every run or even pull will provide the same opportunities for every group and every player, even with excellent personal management?

Of course not. This is not a one-player themed game.

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Will the downtime be the same? No of course not. Will there still be downtime? Yes absolutely.

Case in point:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/dpW2b...12041&source=6
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/B4QXa...casts&source=5

One of these runs has 0 deaths, the other has 8. If I just dropped the cast bars blindly and unlabelled, it’d be a struggle to tell the difference.

The actual difference here is how well you cope with people failing around you.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm no pro healer, but I'm fairly certain "healer failed to heal" comes with more consequences than 30 seconds of "keep at it, champ" in any dungeon at all.

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Yes, it comes with a bit of guilt, but I usually just get over it. I'm no pro either, I mess up all the time, but never once have I considered healing to be unforgiving. I always blame myself for messing up, and try to do better next time.

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If healing bores you, don't heal, and don't try to ruin things for players who are not bored.

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If I don't like healing I would have played a different job. Alas, I don't get to heal much as a healer either.

Being able to fail and failing as a healer is one of the most important parts of learning how to be a good healer. If a healer never fails they will hold on to bad habits and never learn how to get better. Healers are the role that improves the most when they fail. If healers are not able to fail then how are they going to get better? I guess they could read a guide but I'm sure most of them won't.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

If healing bores you, don't heal, and don't try to ruin things for players who are not bored.

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Why please the entire playerbase if you can please just a portion of it, amirite?

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Originally Posted by rewd

Why please the entire playerbase if you can please just a portion of it, amirite?

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More like why displease many to please a few.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

And that's the core of why there is the available downtimes for healers in which they can add whatever dps they can without committing to a rotation and with the knowledge that even a simple dot and spam rotation helps; it's time that can also be spent catching up on healing.

Some narrow-minded healers seem to believe that this downtime exists just for casual healers who may struggle with healing and cannot be expected to be able divide their focus between catch up and bonus dps unless they are lucky and that it should be modified for more "advanced" healers so there are more options for those "pros" who watch Netflix or write books or check emails or whathaveyou during fights because they're bored, but it's little more than self-gratification.

Not every run will have downtime.
Sometimes the catch up will be harder.
Sometimes you'll have to rez someone.
Sometimes you'll have to sprint to safety, or pull someone else to safety.
Sometimes you'll be busy popping buffs, throwing aoe shields, using ethers, checking timers or typing.

The downtime dps is never guaranteed, no matter how pro a healer is because we play as a team and human error applies to the entire party and it's the entire party that a healer is responsible for keeping alive.

Claiming boredom with something that should be a healer's lowest priority and what has been declared a luxury by SE is unforgivable and annoying vanity.

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Not every run will have big downtime. But a huge number of them do.
However, we have the tools to handle that downtime REGARDLESS of what we have available to us during our downtime.

If I have 20 healing spells and 2 DPS spells, then in those groups where downtime might be small then I have 20 healing spells I can use to deal with it.
If I have 20 healing spells and 8 DPS spells, then in those groups where downtime might be small then I still have 20 healing spells I can use to deal with it. My ability to deal with those situations has not changed.

In practice though, you're talking 70% downtime in a lot of scenarios.
Heck, I looked up my performance on runs people have recorded and whilst having a grey parse (like 5%) on my EX trial progression runs on there (Memoria Misera and Emerald Weapon) I still had 50-60% downtime. I'd look at Savage, but nobody has ever uploaded logs of runs I've been in. And I don't do much savage as a semi-casual.

But I don't think people not wanting to be bored playing the role they want to play is vanity. Believe it or not we just don't want to sit there spamming the same button over and over the majority of the time and there is no real reason to.

Either: up the healing priority by increasing the healing requirement to an engaging level on all content or make the downtime interesting. Those are the choices to make things engaging.

But if they up the healing priority then your low end healers are going to find healing less accessible. The devs don't want that to happen and it would be selfish to make healing inaccessible to low end players to satisfy our boredom, especially when there's an alternative solution.
If they improve the downtime with a secondary focus that is not required for 95% of the content, you're going to keep it accessible. Nothing about the healing aspect of the role needs to be touched. So no, it's not a vain solution, it's one that keeps it engaging without ruining anybody's healing experience.

And it kinda strikes me as odd that people keep downplaying healer DPS as a secondary unimportant thing because healers should heal, yet are opposed to making the DPS aspect more interesting because it 'makes things too complicated'.

The reality is, a person's healing focus is derived from the content and how the healing kit reacts to it. It has nothing to do with your DPS kit.

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Originally Posted by Acece

Being able to fail and failing as a healer is one of the most important parts of learning how to be a good healer. If a healer never fails they will hold on to bad habits and never learn how to get better. Healers are the role that improves the most when they fail. If healers are not able to fail then how are they going to get better? I guess they could read a guide but I'm sure most of them won't.

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100% this. And this is a game designed so that you do learn by failing, this is why the hardest content in the game isn't just about how skilled a player is but how well they can learn from their mistakes.

And it's not just healer mistakes that cause wipes but sometimes the healer still gets the blame...and no credit when they save the party from the person who'd be causing a wipe. Using some examples:
- Crysallis -> Most wipes are caused by tanks or/and DPS
- Good King Moggle Mog -> Most wipes are caused by tanks or/and DPS
- Titania -> Most wipes are caused by DPS
- Ravana -> Most wipes are caused by tanks or/and DPS
- Angra -> Most wipes are caused by DPS

In the example of Titania, if I am healing then I end up doing all I can to keep my DPS up whilst keeping people from dying so we don't lose that DPS check.

I don't begrudge people making mistakes either and think it's part and parcel of the experience especially in DF. And even seasoned players make them. I guess it's when people don't learn from them that it's an issue.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

And that's the core of why there is the available downtimes for healers in which they can add whatever dps they can without committing to a rotation and with the knowledge that even a simple dot and spam rotation helps; it's time that can also be spent catching up on healing.

Some narrow-minded healers seem to believe that this downtime exists just for casual healers who may struggle with healing and cannot be expected to be able divide their focus between catch up and bonus dps unless they are lucky and that it should be modified for more "advanced" healers so there are more options for those "pros" who watch Netflix or write books or check emails or whathaveyou during fights because they're bored, but it's little more than self-gratification.

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The developers have gone on record saying that they do not want to increase healing uptime because they do not want to make things too hard on baby healers. Healer downtime most certainly exists — from Sastasha to Ultimate. This isn’t some construct “DPS-oriented healers” have created; it’s just simple fact. Even in runs where everything that could possibly go wrong has gone wrong, there will healing downtime.

“Catching up on healing” is not that difficult to do considering how overpowered healing is in this game, and how many tools each healer has. Some have more than others, true. But they can make recovering a run easy if they are even worth half of their salt. I said it in a previous post, but a lot of the shiny new tools healers got this expansion are overpowered and overkill for most content. When I pop them in runs purely because I want to overmitigate the everliving heck out of everything versus because said mitigation is actually necessary is telling. It may be fun as heck to pop every healing cooldown I have to overmitigate one mechanic because LMAO what else am I going to use them on—but it’s also depressing. Why can’t they actually be necessary? Right: because the developers want to cater to the lower end of the skill spectrum.

Even the hardest content in this game has more than 50% healing downtime for a healer that is playing it safe.

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Not every run will have downtime.
Sometimes the catch up will be harder.
Sometimes you'll have to rez someone.
Sometimes you'll have to sprint to safety, or pull someone else to safety.
Sometimes you'll be busy popping buffs, throwing aoe shields, using ethers, checking timers or typing.

---

Every fight has downtime of some kind. To say that “not every run will have downtime” is disingenuous.

Catch up in most content isn’t that hard. The majority of fights in this game are easy wars of attrition where you don’t have to worry about enrage timers and can just throw bodies repeatedly at a boss until it dies. That said, all damage in encounters is scripted, and can be easily mapped out by any experienced healer. Or even one not as experienced but familiar with the fight. This includes when someone who shouldn’t take damage takes damage. If you know X melee-range AOE happens now, and you see the SAM just standing there not moving out of it, you can easily prepare to toss a heal and/or regen on them because they’re going to get hit. Even in that split second. And it will take a grand total of 2.5s at most. Then you have another 20~30s still of single-target nuke spamming.

Raising takes 8 seconds at most. Then you’re left with the time between when you raised and healed the person who died and the next “big” mechanic.

If you have any knowledge of a fight, you won’t really have to move to safety. You will be pre-positioning. Even if you don’t pre-position, running to safety takes a second to two at most. Certainly not any extended amount of time. Rescuing someone else to safety would, again, take a few seconds at most. And then you are left with downtime once again.

Buffs are all on a timer for the healers that have them. Chain Strat and Divination are all on 120-second timers. They take half a second to deploy and minimal thought. AST cards are all on 30-second intervals. You will not be spending a lot of time popping these buffs outside of your opener if you’re an AST. Most buffs are one button presses and done. Shields are always timed to line up with mechanics, which are scripted. If you know when they’re coming, you’ve already thrown up shields/mitigation and are back to dealing damage. Checking timers also only takes a couple seconds at most—and you can still be pressing buttons while checking timers.

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The downtime dps is never guaranteed, no matter how pro a healer is because we play as a team and human error applies to the entire party and it's the entire party that a healer is responsible for keeping alive.

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Except it is. Because even with people bumbling around in every way possible, these fights are still scripted; and always will be. It’s not that hard to keep an entire party alive in an 8-man or 24-man with just one healer worth half their salt. Even a paper tank. There have been very few instances in this game where I have been stuck doing nothing but healing. The only I can recall are tanks doing large pulls in dungeons but lacking the gear and/or mitigation for it. But in boss encounters? I’m spamming my single-target most of the time. Even in Ultimate. Even when playing it safe.

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Claiming boredom with something that should be a healer's lowest priority and what has been declared a luxury by SE is unforgivable and annoying vanity.

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Too bad healing in this game is also boring outside of the hardest content in the game. Good healers already have healing cooldowns and GCDs mapped for their fights. There’s very little variance in usage even when paired with another healer the same job as you. Big raid wide coming up in 10? Well, I have already planned to use Earthly Star for this—and I can even place it down in advance for it to detonate on its own without my input. Then I get to wait for the next one—which could be anywhere from a few seconds (rare) to upwards of a minute or longer. One of my biggest gripes of E7S was that I spent the first two minutes of the fight NOT HEALING AND DEALING DAMAGE when I cleared it. Because the only outgoing damage was taken care of by oGCDs, and then there was one buster. Which I had a PLD in my static, so they just pressed Hallowed and laughed at it. Riveting.

I’d rather get the runs where everything that could go wrong goes wrong. At least I get to use more than just a few skills in my arsenal then. It’s the primary reason I run healer in Extremes or when 24-mans release. Maybe I’ll finally be able to actually heal!

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

More like why displease many to please a few.

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They are not mutually exclusive, even though you are unable to realize it. Among other things, I'd add.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

More like why displease many to please a few.

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It's almost as if making blanket changes to appeal to a subset of people at a certain skill level is bad, it's a good thing they've never done that with healers.... oh wait

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

BUT I'M NOT AT 100% AND YOU'RE SITTING THERE SMASHING GLARE! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS 100 HP OUT OF 40K HP THAT I'M MISSING?!

/s

Non-healers need to learn their HP total isn't their concern. If they want to help out with oGCDs, fine. By all means (But I hear you RDMs and PLDs smashing Vercure/Clemency. Stop. Do not. That's a waste of your GCD.) If I'm worried about HP totals, I will do something about it. If I'm not, then they shouldn't be concerned, either.

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Tbf as much as I agree with you about the healing, I legitimately can't trust random people I don't know to keep me above a certain hp threshold, especially on a DPS job. If you drop low there's a 5% chance it's just a good healer doing their job and a 95% chance it's just a noob healer who isn't paying attention.

Most skilled healers nowadays are largely either people who heal only in savage/ultimate and play other things outside of it, skilled players who flex into it but don't consider it their main job (I.E. Legends and Necromancers,) or the very few who enjoy it and are actually good at it.

"But I don't think people not wanting to be bored playing the role they want to play is vanity."
"Too bad healing in this game is also boring outside of the hardest content in the game."
"It's almost as if making blanket changes to appeal to a subset of people at a certain skill level is bad, it's a good thing they've never done that with healers.... oh wait."

I get it. You have all said it repeatedly. You're bored with healing the way it is. That's a you problem. Not everyone feels the same way.

Stop trying to make healers more of a dps class because you DON'T SEEM TO CARE FOR HEALING ALL THAT MUCH AND WANT TO STEP AWAY FROM THE FUNDEMANTAL CORE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HEALER, WHICH IS SIMPLY HEALING. Not everyone wants to kill the lore and turn healers into better murder-machines because some players can't hold still for a few seconds during a fight.

Again, more support options, sure. NO MORE DIPS for HEALERS, ty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

"But I don't think people not wanting to be bored playing the role they want to play is vanity."
"Too bad healing in this game is also boring outside of the hardest content in the game."
"It's almost as if making blanket changes to appeal to a subset of people at a certain skill level is bad, it's a good thing they've never done that with healers.... oh wait."

I get it. You have all said it repeatedly. You're bored with healing the way it is. That's a you problem. Not everyone feels the same way.

Stop trying to make healers more of a dps class because you DON'T SEEM TO CARE FOR HEALING ALL THAT MUCH AND WANT TO STEP AWAY FROM THE FUNDEMANTAL CORE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HEALER, WHICH IS SIMPLY HEALING. Not everyone wants to kill the lore and turn healers into better murder-machines because some players can't hold still for a few seconds during a fight.

Again, more support options, sure. NO MORE DIPS for HEALERS, ty.

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It not more dps options it making it more interesting then it currently are. To keep you more engage then what they are now. I dont know where people keep getting more dps options from.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

"But I don't think people not wanting to be bored playing the role they want to play is vanity."
"Too bad healing in this game is also boring outside of the hardest content in the game."
"It's almost as if making blanket changes to appeal to a subset of people at a certain skill level is bad, it's a good thing they've never done that with healers.... oh wait."

I get it. You have all said it repeatedly. You're bored with healing the way it is. That's a you problem.

Stop trying to make healers more of a dps class because you DON'T SEEM TO CARE FOR HEALING ALL THAT MUCH AND WANT TO STEP AWAY FROM THE FUNDEMANTAL CORE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HEALER, WHICH IS SIMPLY HEALING. Not everyone wants to kill the lore and turn healers into better murder-machines because some players can't hold still for a few seconds during a fight.

Again, more support options, sure. NO MORE DIPS for HEALERS, ty.

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I’d ask if you’re actually reading what people are saying, but I believe you mentioned earlier in the thread that you aren’t. So not much point in that—I already have my answer. Even if I didn’t get it from just reading this response from you.

However, I’ll bang my head against this brick wall one more time: healer mains have been asking for years for more in-depth healer mechanics but the developers refuse to give us more healing to do. The developers do not want to upset the baby healers, so they dumbed down the role just as they have dumbed down other roles. These healers are NOT wanting to be green DPS—they just want to be engaged in their role. If it isn’t through healing, well, it has to be through damage because we sure as heck aren’t doing anything else in this game. They won’t let us!!

Besides, FFXIV being so damage-oriented isn’t entirely the fault of the playerbase. The devs were the ones that removed things like debuff cleansing and crowd control throughout the expansions, and gave mitigation tools to every single role to the point that they are redundant (seriously, every role has x% mitigation now). If you wanted more support options, you’d need to take them away from the other roles, because adding support onto the healers would just add to the oversaturation at this point. And, to be frank, his support you’re speaking of was originally a physical ranged mechanic. Not a healer mechanic.

Nowadays, the only “healer mechanics” we get are “HEAL TO FULL OR DOOM KILL EVERYONE”. Which is easily taken care of by one healer more times than not (see: TGC’s Cleansing Strike). Sometimes we get things like E12S’s pre-enrage healer check or E11S’s cycles—it just sucks that, with gear and a good group, it’s not even a threat anymore.

If you had bothered to read my post instead of taking one line out of context, you’d see that I am asking for more reasons to use my ENTIRE toolkit. I am complaining about my kit being overkill. They won’t give them to me, so at least give me some other kind of mental engagement. Standing around waiting for someone to take damage certainly ain’t it. And I’d be standing around for a lot more than just “a few seconds” in most content in this game if I were to just heal and do nothing else.

When you have this many healers being bored with healer gameplay, it is no longer a “you” problem but a job design problem, an encounter design problem, or both.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If it isn’t through healing, well, it has to be through damage because we sure as heck aren’t doing anything else in this game. They won’t let us!!

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@Axxion. I wonder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

@Axxion. I wonder.

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I’d appreciate it if you’d stop taking my posts out of context, thanks.

Good job omitting the prior remark I made about how I’ve been asking for more healing to do; and since the devs won’t give me that, now I am asking for another form of engagement.

And it isn’t just me. It’s a lot of the career healers. Again, this is far more than a “you” problem. It’s a combination of role design and combat design.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

It not more dps options it making it more interesting then it currently are. To keep you more engage then what they are now. I dont know where people keep getting more dps options from.

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They don’t have a proper argument, so they skew remarks or take sentences out of context to attempt to make one.

I think we've just been talking in circles for a while so let us stop indulging them, lets just say they suck and leave it lol. Sylphies will never change their minds so no point in trying to debate them when they don't even try to come to it with an open mind.

This is prime bait. Grade A.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

"But I don't think people not wanting to be bored playing the role they want to play is vanity."
"Too bad healing in this game is also boring outside of the hardest content in the game."
"It's almost as if making blanket changes to appeal to a subset of people at a certain skill level is bad, it's a good thing they've never done that with healers.... oh wait."

I get it. You have all said it repeatedly. You're bored with healing the way it is. That's a you problem.

Stop trying to make healers more of a dps class because you DON'T SEEM TO CARE FOR HEALING ALL THAT MUCH AND WANT TO STEP AWAY FROM THE FUNDEMANTAL CORE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HEALER, WHICH IS SIMPLY HEALING. Not everyone wants to kill the lore and turn healers into better murder-machines because some players can't hold still for a few seconds during a fight.

Again, more support options, sure. NO MORE DIPS for HEALERS, ty.

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And this is where you are wrong and are either trying to be obtuse or haven't listened to anybody. The way you are framing it is very far off the mark. I am starting to feel like you're arguing from bad faith.

I care about healing. It's NOT that I WANT to step away from the fundamental core of what it means to be a healer. It's because the game ALREADY does this. The downtime is there, it exists and we can't fill it with healing because all the healing that needed is done.

I look at these big healing kits we've got and lament I don't get to use it fully.

We are left with DPS and this is because of how this game is designed, there are no other meaningful options they can put in place except anything that contributes to rDPS, unless they change fundamental core design. Again, if they make fundamental changes that offer better support options as a healer then fine, I'd embrace it because I love being a healer. If it was about wanting to DPS then I'd play a DPS.

But I am also realist and don't think the devs would make THAT much of a drastic change to make healing engaging again. And I don't think they would do anything to make playing a healer less accessible.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

@Axxion. I wonder.

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I'm talking prior to hyo response. Many people always argue that people that want healing to be more engaging just want complex rotations. Which always lead down a rabbit hole on which they are wrong.

What Hyo is saying ( please correct me if im wrong) is that if healers are not going to be interesting then make healers dps heal us. take sage and how there kits work. While they attack they also heal the team.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’d appreciate it if you’d stop taking my posts out of context, thanks.

Good job omitting the prior remark I made about how I’ve been asking for more healing to do; and since the devs won’t give me that, now I am asking for another form of engagement.

And it isn’t just me. It’s a lot of the career healers. Again, this is far more than a “you” problem. It’s a combination of role design and combat design.



They don’t have a proper argument, so they skew remarks or take sentences out of context to attempt to make one.

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I can agree to that.

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Originally Posted by Acece

lets just say they suck and leave it lol. Sylphies will never change their minds so no point in trying to debate them

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Very open minded if you.

@Saefinn. Why make it sound as if healers spend more time either twiddling their thumbs or spam clicking a single dps button than they ever do healing? I have never experienced this and it makes me wonder if we are even playing the same game or you and others are being obtuse or arguing in bad faith.

This is what really gets me. There is already plenty to do as a healer and y'all make it sound as if you practically afk during fights, be it sastasha or eden savage, unless you force yourself to spam the dps button, which kills your credibility.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Very open minded if you.

@Saefinn. Why make it sound as if healers spend more time either twiddling their thumbs or spam clicking a single dps button than they ever do healing? I have never experienced this and it makes me wonder if we are even playing the same game or you and others are being obtuse or arguing in bad faith.

This is what really gets me. There is already plenty to do as a healer and y'all make it sound as if you practically afk during fights unless you force yourself to spam the dps button, which kills your credibility.

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People who made the argument have posted numerous run records to demonstrate their points. Why don't you do the same?

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Originally Posted by Axxion

I'm talking prior to hyo response. Many people always argue that people that want healing to be more engaging just want complex rotations. Which always lead down a rabbit hole on which they are wrong.

What Hyo is saying ( please correct me if im wrong) is that if healers are not going to be interesting then make healers dps heal us. take sage and how there kits work. While they attack they also heal the team.

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I’ll clarify a bit.

Basically, I’m in the camp of healers that wants more reasons to use my healing toolkit. As it stands, I can heal most big mechanics with oGCDs. I have an answer for nearly everything even with paired with a healer that still thinks Cure I spam is acceptable practice at level 80. And my answers are all overkill. Things like Horoscope Helios, Neutral Sect, Seraph. All of those are overkill in a lot of content because the outgoing damage is spread too thin, or just paltry unless the entire party is sporting 4 stacks of vulnerability up.

I want to use my shiny new toys, but the developers do not want to overwhelm baby healers. Fine. I can accept that even if I don’t like it. The problem is, is that this carries into harder content as well. Savage. Ultimate. There are a myriad of examples where I am spending more GCDs on Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis than healing.

So, if the developers do not want to give me more healing to focus on, at least make what I am doing a bit more engaging. Which is spamming my 1 nuke. I’m not even asking for combos. I’d be happy if they brought back Aero III/Miasma II for the jobs. Just something else to upkeep since they won’t let me focus on healing more.

SGE’s gameplay of healing being directly tied to damage is amazing. I would love more kit interactions like that—but I know it’s an unrealistic desire, since it would force non-DPSing healers to actually press their damage buttons. And the developers have said they will never force that. Their solution to the other three healers being boring as sin to play when it comes to DPS rotational complexity is to basically play SGE. Which is sad. I’d love for all three to have kit interactions like SGE. (That aren’t a damage loss, which Misery technically is.)

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Very open minded if you.

@Saefinn. Why make it sound as if healers spend more time either twiddling their thumbs or spam clicking a single dps button than they ever do healing? I have never experienced this and it makes me wonder if we are even playing the same game or you and others are being obtuse or arguing in bad faith.

This is what really gets me. There is already plenty to do as a healer and y'all make it sound as if you practically afk during fights, be it sastasha or eden savage, unless you force yourself to spam the dps button, which kills your credibility.

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No, there really isn’t. Your insistence that there is tells me you either don’t actually heal content—or you are one of those spam-Cure I-on-a-90%-HP-tank/100%-Medica-II-uptime kind of healers. Even in Eden Savage, the majority of any healer’s casts are damage ones. Just pull any halfway decent healer log and look at their total casts. Even in Ultimate, a healer is doing more damage than actually healing. Seems a bit backwards to me. If only the developers would actually give us more healing to do.

I wouldn't mind more challenging healing myself (though only slightly more, since I think it's already plenty challenging), though I hope you haven't forgotten that we're at the end of an expac and it's only natural that you're overhealing just about all the current content and there IS an impending ilv crunch coming that will no doubt change healing across the board, especially coupled with the new content which everyone will face in green gear at best. Your healing toolkit is about to be a lot more relied upon.

So why ask for more? The pedestal you stand on is about to be kicked out from under your feet and is only ever temporary anyways. Lay off the demand for more dps buttons till you see the true amount of changes. Healers are fine the way they are without these weird desires for more complexity to fill small downtimes that are likely about to vanish for the next several months after launch.

Stick to healing and stop whining about how boring it is, or play something else for everyone's sake.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ll clarify a bit.

Basically, I’m in the camp of healers that wants more reasons to use my healing toolkit. As it stands, I can heal most big mechanics with oGCDs. I have an answer for nearly everything even with paired with a healer that still thinks Cure I spam is acceptable practice at level 80. And my answers are all overkill. Things like Horoscope Helios, Neutral Sect, Seraph. All of those are overkill in a lot of content because the outgoing damage is spread too thin, or just paltry unless the entire party is sporting 4 stacks of vulnerability up.

I want to use my shiny new toys, but the developers do not want to overwhelm baby healers. Fine. I can accept that even if I don’t like it. The problem is, is that this carries into harder content as well. Savage. Ultimate. There are a myriad of examples where I am spending more GCDs on Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis than healing.

So, if the developers do not want to give me more healing to focus on, at least make what I am doing a bit more engaging. Which is spamming my 1 nuke. I’m not even asking for combos. I’d be happy if they brought back Aero III/Miasma II for the jobs. Just something else to upkeep since they won’t let me focus on healing more.

SGE’s gameplay of healing being directly tied to damage is amazing. I would love more kit interactions like that—but I know it’s an unrealistic desire, since it would force non-DPSing healers to actually press their damage buttons. And the developers have said they will never force that. Their solution to the other three healers being boring as sin to play when it comes to DPS rotational complexity is to basically play SGE. Which is sad. I’d love for all three to have kit interactions like SGE. (That aren’t a damage loss, which Misery technically is.)

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Gotcha gotcha thank you for that.

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

People who made the argument have posted numerous run records to demonstrate their points. Why don't you do the same?

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How about I link the "Tales from duty finder" thread. Would that work?

How about you post literally any of your healing logs in Savage? Or even Extreme?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

How about you post literally any of your healing logs in Savage? Or even Extreme?

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Are you trying to flex or something? I'm talking about healing on all levels. No one cares about your achievements.

So you haven't healed in Extreme or Savage?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I wouldn't mind more challenging healing myself (though only slightly more, since I think it's already plenty challenging), though I hope you haven't forgotten that we're at the end of an expac and it's only natural that you're overhealing just about all the current content and there IS an impending ilv crunch coming that will no doubt change healing across the board, especially coupled with the new content which everyone will face in green gear at best. Your healing toolkit is about to be a lot more relied upon.

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You’d have a point if there weren’t Week 1 Savage instances where I’m doing no healing. This is far more than outgearing content. Week 1 Eden’s Verse was still not that demanding on healing outside of E8S. I’d say the same for Promise if I hadn’t been forced into playing physical ranged as opposed to the role I really wanted to play, but the only heal checks in it where E11S cycles and E12S.

It actually is my hope that the stat squish will up healing requirements, but I somehow doubt that. Considering we’ve been asking since HW for more healing and have yet to see it. Just more tools to be overkill in the content. And the developers also won’t make things too uncomfortable for baby healers. Which fine. I don’t necessarily need dungeons to have Savage-level healer checks. I’d just like more reasons to use my kit more.

I’d love to be wrong, but my hopes aren’t high.

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So why ask for more? The pedestal you stand on is about to be kicked out from under your feet and is only ever temporary anyways. Lay off the demand for more dps buttons till you see the true amount of changes. Healers are fine the way they are without these weird desires for more complexity to fill small downtimes that are likely about to vanish for the next several months after launch.

Stick to healing and stop whining about how boring it is, or play something else for everyone's sake.

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Pardon if we don’t feel optimistic about what the expansion will bring after being repeatedly disappointed. The devs said in both SB and ShB we’d have more healing to do. I’ve yet to actually see it outside of some portions of Ultimate (others, not so much—looking at you, Twintania). If anything, healers continue to just get stronger—even with the lack of scaling they added in ShB to post-70 heals.

There's never been a stat squish before either, right?

Sage is supposedly more complicated that other healers from what I hear.

The content is getting progressively more epic and intense with each expac.

And FF14 is watching WoW crumble and no doubt learning from it.

You may be giving up on them a little too soon.

I don't see a need for massive healer changes in light of all this. I honestly believe there is more great things coming in any case, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you're bored, main something else.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

There's never been a stat squish before either, right?

Sage is supposedly more complicated that other healers from what I hear.

The content is getting progressively more epic and intense with each expac.

And FF14 is watching WoW crumble and no doubt learning from it.

You may be giving up on them a little too soon.

I don't see a need for massive healer changes in light of all this.

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Key word is “supposedly”. We’ll see how complex it is in practice when the expansion launches. Even if we assume it is just as in-depth and as complex as Yoshida has claimed, however, that still leaves the other three healers. Are they to be stuck in noncomplex boring land for forever because SGE exists? Presumably so, given his recent interview.

The content hasn’t really gotten more intense or epic, though. Dungeons are still the same. 24-mans are still the same. Savage likely won’t surpass current difficulty because the developers prefer the accessibility. My only hope is the Ultimates at this point. Content you do isn’t more intense. The healing requirements for ShB leveling dungeons were the same as SB. The only exception being Holminster Switch had spice to it that Sirensong Sea did not. But overall, the others weren’t any harder than those who came before. At most, the spike we saw going from Shisui to Bardam’s simply happened earlier with Holminster.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Sage is supposedly more complicated that other healers from what I hear.

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if you even bothered reading tooltips you would see sage is more of the same