Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Because ever since reaching level 50, big pulls have been the rule, and small pulls have been the exception.

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Then why does the game let anyone pull small after 50? Rules are meaningless if they're not enforced.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue to force the tank to pull at the pace you want isn't it's intended use, and is every bit as exploitative as choosing not to save someone that ran ahead of you and pulled a bunch of crap.

If I was pulling slow and you vote kicked me i would actually have no problem with that. Sometimes people's play-styles just don't mesh, and to vote kick the majority has to sign off. Deciding you don't want to play with me, and deciding you want to force me to play a specific way by exploiting a poorly designed skill, are 2 different things.

I'm really not sure why you people are so dead set against simply asking for big pulls at the beginning of the run, though.

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Using rescue to pull more mobs isn't exploitative. It's not in the ToS that only tanks can pull mobs. Disrupting others play through deliberately letting them die though is against the ToS though.

Your second sentence shows your lack of self awareness. YOU are forcing people to play a specific way by pulling small. Yes it's a stalemate, but what you are actually preaching is the same as what you're complaining about.

People shouldn't have to ask for big pulls, they should be standard. And they shouldn't be called "big pulls" they should be called "pulls" and anything less is "baby pulls"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Then why does the game let anyone pull small after 50? Rules are meaningless if they're not enforced.

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More so it is a community rule. You are free to pull whatever size you please, but do not expect people to always kindly wait. Just like people should not expect tanks to sit back and kindly take being dragged around. This is why I say people should just use the vote kick feature more often, remove the element for whatever reason that does not mesh with the overall desire of the group. It is a waste of time in the end imo to even try to communicate since someone in the end will be forced into a situation that they do not want to be in. So either kick the person or leave the group should be the standard when it comes to being placed in a group where ones play style does not mesh.

Things get petty when people try to force others to do something they do not wish to do, though I do get why people do as such but seems silly.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Using rescue to pull more mobs isn't exploitative. It's not in the ToS that only tanks can pull mobs. Disrupting others play through deliberately letting them die though is against the ToS though.

Your second sentence shows your lack of self awareness. YOU are forcing people to play a specific way by pulling small. Yes it's a stalemate, but what you are actually preaching is the same as what you're complaining about.

People shouldn't have to ask for big pulls, they should be standard. And they shouldn't be called "big pulls" they should be called "pulls" and anything less is "baby pulls"

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Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play. I'm guessing I'd have an easier time reporting that then you would have reporting me for failing to save you when you ran off ahead of me and aggro'd a bunch of stuff. Believe whatever you want, though. People like you can Rescue pull and people like me will let you die. The difference is that you're the one that initiated the conflict; I'm simply responding.

If people have a specific playstyle expectation, and won't tolerate anything else, they should always at least ask. Otherwise you get what you get.

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Originally Posted by Awha

More so it is a community rule. You are free to pull whatever size you please, but do not expect people to always kindly wait. Just like people should not expect tanks to sit back and kindly take being dragged around. This is why I say people should just use the vote kick feature more often, remove the element for whatever reason that does not mesh with the overall desire of the group. It is a waste of time in the end imo to even try to communicate since someone in the end will be forced into a situation that they do not want to be in. So either kick the person or leave the group should be the standard when it comes to being placed in a group where ones play style does not mesh.

Things get petty when people try to force others to do something they do not wish to do, though I do get why people do as such but seems silly.

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Here's how it should go down.

If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play. I'm guessing I'd have an easier time reporting that then you would have reporting me for failing to save you when you ran off ahead of me and aggro'd a bunch of stuff. Believe whatever you want, though. People like you can Rescue pull and people like me will let you die. The difference is that you're the one that initiated the conflict; I'm simply responding.

If people have a specific playstyle expectation, and won't tolerate anything else, they should always at least ask. Otherwise you get what you get.


Here's how it should go down.

If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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With the way the game is designed, if one does not even attempt a large pull then they are simply just bad at the game and should try to improve. The absolute worst that can happen on a big pull is that you wipe, and next time you know to pull less. This is why "large pulls" are the standard and why the onus should not be on the party to ask for a big pull, logically they should be the baseline and you tone downwards. The game is desinged in such a way to heavily reward fighting the most amount of enemies possible, and the actual tanking/healing load in any one dungeon is so low that even at min ilvl healers spend more time dpsing than healing. Again the worst that can happen on a large pull is you die and brush it off and try again, maybe smaller this time, if you dont die, great the whole run is going to be quicker, if you do die, boo that sucks, but you'll be in for a long one anyway with small pulls so that death doesn't add much time. Unless it somehow hurts your pride that you've died in a dungeon, or you fear social repurcusions, don't worry, this is a Great Community BTW, the amount of grief youd get is minimum if you at least put the effort in, because thats what small pulls are, not putting in any effort. And if your pride is truly hurt by the idea of dying, try re-evaulating your priorities.

Better communication is definitely never a bad answer!

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I can't believe you're ending our lifelong friendship over this. This can't be happening!!

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I'd tell you you'd get over it but you can't even get over someone using Rescue on you on a dungeon that one time. Lifelong to you is a blink to me. You're a puppy yapping at a big dog's heels. If you can't keep up, shut up. Don't get into a duty finder with randoms if you're still in training and expect preferential treatment. Not everyone is going to suffer you pulling one monster at a time because you can't figure out how to play a tank and "Oh no! Someone made me move! I have suddenly forgot how to use my skills!"

FF14 is the most casual of MMOs and you have somehow turned it into a chore. No wonder gaming's becoming more cutscenes than involvement.

Next up: Netflix does gaming with Black Mirror... Oh. Damn, that show DOES imitate real life.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

With the way the game is designed, if one does not even attempt a large pull then they are simply just bad at the game and should try to improve. The absolute worst that can happen on a big pull is that you wipe, and next time you know to pull less. This is why "large pulls" are the standard and why the onus should not be on the party to ask for a big pull, logically they should be the baseline and you tone downwards. The game is desinged in such a way to heavily reward fighting the most amount of enemies possible, and the actual tanking/healing load in any one dungeon is so low that even at min ilvl healers spend more time dpsing than healing. Again the worst that can happen on a large pull is you die and brush it off and try again, maybe smaller this time, if you dont die, great the whole run is going to be quicker, if you do die, boo that sucks, but you'll be in for a long one anyway with small pulls so that death doesn't add much time. Unless it somehow hurts your pride that you've died in a dungeon, or you fear social repurcusions, don't worry, this is a Great Community BTW, the amount of grief youd get is minimum if you at least put the effort in, because thats what small pulls are, not putting in any effort. And if your pride is truly hurt by the idea of dying, try re-evaulating your priorities.

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It's impressive how much effort you all put into being completely socially inept.

If you walk into a situation where you're working with a bunch of strangers and you want things done a certain way, you ask. You don't just walk in expecting things are going to happen the way you want them to, and start yanking people around if they don't. It's almost impressive that I have to explain this.

As for this being a great community... eh. I've played a lot of MMO's and I wouldn't say this is one of the better ones community wise. It is a great game, though.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I'd tell you you'd get over it but you can't even get over someone using Rescue on you on a dungeon that one time. Lifelong to you is a blink to me. You're a puppy yapping at a big dog's heels. If you can't keep up, shut up. Don't get into a duty finder with randoms if you're still in training and expect preferential treatment. Not everyone is going to suffer you pulling one monster at a time because you can't figure out how to play a tank and "Oh no! Someone made me move! I have suddenly forgot how to use my skills!"

FF14 is the most casual of MMOs and you have somehow turned it into a chore. No wonder gaming's becoming more cutscenes than involvement.

Next up: Netflix does gaming with Black Mirror... Oh. Damn, that show DOES imitate real life.

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You sound angry; I'm starting to think I may have truly jeopardized our friendship. If we're not best friends anymore then are we at least still really really good friends?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's impressive how much effort you all put into being completely socially inept.

If you walk into a situation where you're working with a bunch of strangers and you want things done a certain way, you ask. You don't just walk in expecting things are going to happen the way you want them to, and start yanking people around if they don't. It's almost impressive that I have to explain this.

As for this being a great community... eh. I've played a lot of MMO's and I wouldn't say this is one of the better ones community wise. It is a great game, though.

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No, when you're working with a bunch of strangers and there's a generally accepted means of doing something (pulling in larger groups) that the vast majority abide by to the point that it's considered the standard, the onus is on YOU to ask for smaller pulls first. State that you're under geared, you're new, you're uncomfortable, whatever excuse you want at the start because you're the one who will be going against the grain.

From the point that the majority of DPS get their AoEs the standard has been multigroup pulls for years, across expansions and dungeons. You're the one who should be asking for smaller pulls, and if you're not doing them without any rhyme nor reason I can understand the healers pulling you. It's still rude that they are doing so, but you're being inconsiderate as well.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's impressive how much effort you all put into being completely socially inept.

If you walk into a situation where you're working with a bunch of strangers and you want things done a certain way, you ask. You don't just walk in expecting things are going to happen the way you want them to, and start yanking people around if they don't. It's almost impressive that I have to explain this.

As for this being a great community... eh. I've played a lot of MMO's and I wouldn't say this is one of the better ones.

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I believe i explained why the strangers youre with expect you to behave a certain way, as it is the most logical an beneficial in the vast majority of cases. Except you ignored that part. If there is a general way something is done and you want to do it differently then the onus is on you to communicate not the other way around, expecting everyone to declare their intentions is unreasonable especially as explained (which you ignored) it makes the most sense to do it one way over another.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's impressive how much effort you all put into being completely socially inept.

As for this being a great community... eh. I've played a lot of MMO's and I wouldn't say this is one of the better ones community wise. It is a great game, though.

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Then I got news for you: you certainly don't help make the community better.

It is as if you don't read your own responses and realize just how hypocritical they come off as.

You want everyone doing everything for you. You don't want to speak up; you rather someone do it for you. You encourage blacklisting you because "it keeps me away from the trolls!!!!" You seek petty revenge because you feel "harassed" by a healer rescuing you. You wish for the skill to be changed because "da trolls" and ignore the responses that tells you otherwise.

It's clear this topic didn't go the way you wanted it to and thanks to your overblown ego, it got changed to people calling you out on your entitlement.

And I know that you'll nitpick this message too and only pick around the areas that benefit your argument because that's what you've done since you've started this topic. Have fun promoting your own blacklisting! I'm sure that is going to go well.

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I believe i explained why the strangers youre with expect you to behave a certain way, as it is the most logical an beneficial in the vast majority of cases. Except you ignored that part. If there is a general way something is done and you want to do it differently then the onus is on you to communicate not the other way around, expecting everyone to declare their intentions is unreasonable especially as explained (which you ignored) it makes the most sense to do it one way over another.

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What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Then I got news for you: you certainly don't help make the community better.

It is as if you don't read your own responses and realize just how hypocritical they come off as.

You want everyone doing everything for you. You don't want to speak up; you rather someone do it for you. You encourage blacklisting you because "it keeps me away from the trolls!!!!" You seek petty revenge because you feel "harassed" by a healer rescuing you. You wish for the skill to be changed because "da trolls" and ignore the responses that tells you otherwise.

It's clear this topic didn't go the way you wanted it to and thanks to your overblown ego, it got changed to people calling you out on your entitlement.

And I know that you'll nitpick this message too and only pick around the areas that benefit your argument because that's what you've done since you've started this topic. Have fun promoting your own blacklisting! I'm sure that is going to go well.

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I never said I made things better. Bad communities tend to bring out the worst in me. I'm also, however, a pretty nice person when around other nice people.

This community just seems to like to be disrespectful and pick fights; and I've always been the type to fight back.

This topic went exactly how I wanted it to; in that I wanted to say my piece about Rescue. I could care less who agrees with me and who doesn't, I'm just venting.

I've adjusted my stance to simply changing Rescue into a toggle that people can opt out of, though, which you conveniently ignored.

Also, I'm not the one who brought up Blacklisting. Other people decided to inform me of their decision to do that to me, like it would actually have an impact on me. I was simply responding.

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This is a judgment call on the healer, and the more the healer participates in content where the use of Rescue will undoubtedly come up, and the more aware the healer is of other jobs and the encounter; the better they get with those judgments.

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I'm sure I'm approaching my post limit, so I'm just gonna do this.

The intent is obviously in the name of the ability; the rest is just you rationalizing. If you feel like the intent of the ability is to force tanks to pull more than they want to then by all means keep telling yourself that. That's pretty obviously a misuse, exploitative and disruptive, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play.

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The only thing obvious about Rescue is what the ability does:

https://i.imgur.com/6wM0WV0.png?1

Nothing has ever been stated that this ability is intended for rescue purposes only. You are getting this impression from the name of the ability itself. I would even wager that translations in other languages have this ability named something other than 'Rescue'. Now it is definitely wrong to use Rescue to intentionally disrupt a person's play; no argument there. However, there is no way to use Rescue without disrupting whatever it was the player was doing. The question is was the use of Rescue beneficial enough to warrant disrupting what that player was doing.

This is a judgment call on the healer, and the more the healer participates in content where the use of Rescue will undoubtedly come up, and the more aware the healer is of other jobs and the encounter; the better they get with those judgments.

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If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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Yeah. There was a time I made the same argument. That was years ago and it's 2020 now. It is actually proper etiquette for the tank to pull big inside dungeons. A big reason for this is because post 50, the group has the resources they need to execute large pulls. The other reason is we are now into the third expansion of FFXIV, and dungeon runs are tedious to the majority of players. They don't want to be in there, but they queue up because they need the tomes and/or exp.

While I don't Rescue tanks into mobs to speed up pulls; it has been done to me when I'm tanking, and I totally understand it. The healer is communicating to me that I can pull more, or it is safer to tank the mobs here.

I am all for tanks learning to crawl before they walk, and learning to walk before they run. I fully expect them to perform with greased training wheels in lower level content for sure. When they are in the higher level stuff though, I fully expect the tank to know how to dungeon. Yes, I just verbalized 'dungeon'.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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So despite explaining twice why it should be (and majorily is) the norm from a more objective standpoint and thus establishing an onus, and not once talking about my preferences, you write it off as me expecting other people to know my preferences. Good to know we're arguing in field of strawmen and you have nothing of value to contribute other than hollow insults lol

Good luck, kid.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What you're stating here isn't a rule the game enforces; it's a preference that you have regarding other peoples playstyles. If you don't share your preferences then the tank is going to perform his role in the way he's most comfortable with.

Your opinions and preferences aren't known entities or rules that other people will have committed to memory. These aren't your friends, family or even acquaintances; they're strangers. If you don't communicate with them your preferences won't be regarded. Plenty of healers don't care if the tank pulls slow, and plenty of healers do actually ASK for big pulls; so this little rule of yours isn't even community enforced. This is all your personal social ineptitude.

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There's also no rule against pulling tanks into mob pulls. It's only according to your arbitrary etiquette that it's considered rude.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Using Rescue on players for reasons other than rescuing them is exploitative. The abilities intent is pretty obvious, and you're misusing it intentionally to disrupt another persons play. I'm guessing I'd have an easier time reporting that then you would have reporting me for failing to save you when you ran off ahead of me and aggro'd a bunch of stuff. Believe whatever you want, though. People like you can Rescue pull and people like me will let you die. The difference is that you're the one that initiated the conflict; I'm simply responding.

If people have a specific playstyle expectation, and won't tolerate anything else, they should always at least ask. Otherwise you get what you get.


Here's how it should go down.

If at the beginning of a run anyone cares about the size of the pulls they should speak up; otherwise the tank is going to do what hes comfortable with. If the Healer wants big pulls and the Tank doesn't then you're at an impasse. At that point the group votes on it, either in chat or through vote kick, and majority wins. Very simple. In instances where the healer decides to be disrespectful and obnoxious, however, I don't feel like anyone is honor bound to treat him kindly. I see nothing wrong with simply letting him die and then working it out from there.

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That is how it should go down, letting the person die and hashing it out afterwards is your prerogative that is true, but why not just tank the group to the best of your ability and after the pull hash it out? Letting the person die seems just as petty if not as petty as someone shirking mobs onto someone or a group forcing a player into a situation they were / are not comfortable with. In the end nothing wrong with any method, it is all personal preference just seems like a waste of time either way around. Though I am a silent kick person, if I see someone doing small pulls I start a vote to remove if it passes yay, if not I just leave or suck it up depends on my mood. Asking takes too much time and creates potential drama.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

There's also no rule against pulling tanks into mob pulls. It's only according to your arbitrary etiquette that it's considered rude.

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Right, and there's also no rule stating that I'm responsible for someone who runs ahead of me, pulls a bunch of stuff and dies. This is all about what is considered rude conduct by the community. If you don't consider attempting to force tanks to pull with Rescue rude then that's your opinion. I personally think Rescue is a terribly designed, easily exploited skill that individuals should be able to opt out of.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

So despite explaining twice why it should be (and majorily is) the norm from a more objective standpoint and thus establishing an onus, and not once talking about my preferences, you write it off as me expecting other people to know my preferences. Good to know we're arguing in field of strawmen and you have nothing of value to contribute other than hollow insults lol

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It's not the norm, though. Like I said, plenty of healers ASK for big pulls (which intuits that it's not the norm), and plenty of Healers also don't care about small pulls. This isn't a community driven, community enforced prerogative; this is you having an expectation and not having the social aptitude to communicate it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Right, and there's also no rule stating that I'm responsible for someone who runs ahead of me, pulls a bunch of stuff and dies. This is all about what is considered rude conduct by the community. If you don't consider attempting to force tanks to pull with Rescue rude then that's your opinion. I personally think Rescue is a terribly designed, easily exploited skill that individuals should be able to opt out of.

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I wouldn't say you're responsible but if you'd let them die on purpose it would mean that you're purposely slowing the party down, while the healer had the right intention of increasing efficiency which is in the whole party's best interest and the point of grouping up in the first place.

Imo people should go in with a more humble mindset and put the party before their own preference. If you can't handle big pulls and healer prepulls, just try, if you fail you can blame it on the healer but at least try and do your best for the sake of the party. Imo healers also shouldn't bother prepulling unless they're sure they can handle it even if chaos ensues, which is easy enough in plenty of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I wouldn't say you're responsible but if you'd let them die on purpose it would mean that you're purposely slowing the party down, while the healer had the right intention of increasing efficiency which is in the whole party's best interest and the point of grouping up in the first place.

Imo people should go in with a more humble mindset and put the party before their own preference. If you can't handle big pulls and healer prepulls, just try, if you fail you can blame it on the healer but at least try and do your best for the sake of the party. Imo healers also shouldn't bother prepulling unless they're sure they can handle it even if chaos ensues, which is easy enough in plenty of dungeons.

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I think what's fun for everyone should be just as much of a consideration as what's most efficient. Plenty of tanks don't like being yanked around; plenty of DPS would rather not have the pull abruptly relocated after they've popped their CDs and placed AoEs because they thought the pull was done.

This is all why if you have a preference you ASK, instead of simply forcing it on everyone.

As for my decision to retaliate, I never argued it was the nicest or most productive thing to do. I just feel like it's justified.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

That doesn't mean it's not the norm at all. Out of the hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of dungeons I've run over the last five years here I don't think I've seen healers have to ask for larger pulls at the start more than 12 times. Because larger pulls are the norm and have been for years.

The only time I see a healer asking for larger pulls mid dungeon isn't because it isn't the norm, but because the tank is performing sub-par and doing small pulls.

I've got to ask man, why do you want to do smaller pulls? They're absolutely mind numbing. It can't be perceived danger, as even if you're at (and often a bit below) the dungeon's general ilevel there's still not much danger in a multi group pull if you're properly playing your class. Hell, you can multi-pull in a trust dungeon and be fine with the brain dead NPCs. So what gives?

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I don't mind doing big pulls. I generally do them by default and if the healer ASKS me to do them I will without any fuss.

It's NOT a rule, though. I've leveled up multiple classes and the ONLY place I see wall to wall pulls really is endgame content. For most of the game tanks aren't doing them and MOST healers aren't trying to force them.

My main problem right now is how hard you're all fighting the basic courtesy of asking. That's partly why I got a bit of a laugh when someone said how great of a community this game has. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's not the norm, though. Like I said, plenty of healers ASK for big pulls (which intuits that it's not the norm), and plenty of Healers also don't care about small pulls. This isn't a community driven, community enforced prerogative; this is you having an expectation and not having the social aptitude to communicate it.

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That doesn't mean it's not the norm at all. Out of the hundreds and hundreds (thousands?) of dungeons I've run over the last five years here I don't think I've seen healers have to ask for larger pulls at the start more than 12 times. Because larger pulls are the norm and have been for years.

The only time I see a healer asking for larger pulls mid dungeon isn't because it isn't the norm, but because the tank is performing sub-par and doing small pulls.

I've got to ask man, why do you want to do smaller pulls? They're absolutely mind numbing. It can't be perceived danger, as even if you're at (and often a bit below) the dungeon's general ilevel there's still not much danger in a multi group pull if you're properly playing your class. Hell, you can multi-pull in a trust dungeon and be fine with the brain dead NPCs. So what gives?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's not the norm, though. Like I said, plenty of healers ASK for big pulls (which intuits that it's not the norm), and plenty of Healers also don't care about small pulls. This isn't a community driven, community enforced prerogative; this is you having an expectation and not having the social aptitude to communicate it.

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Or they're asking for big pulls because the tank isn't doing what most people do.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think what's fun for everyone should be just as much of a consideration as what's most efficient. Plenty of tanks don't like being yanked around; plenty of DPS would rather not have the pull abruptly relocated after they've popped their CDs and places AoEs because they thought the pull was done.

This is all why if you have a preference you ASK, instead of simply forcing it on everyone.

As for my decision to retaliate, I never argued it was the nicest or most productive thing to do. I just feel like it's justified.

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Taking "fun" as a consideration can be a slippery slope though compared to efficiency since fun is very subjective. People may consider freestyling their abilties in endgame content as fun while it's crippling their performance (ice mage etc.), does that mean it should be tolerated just because it's fun? If you're playing with people you know (friends etc.) it doesn't matter cause you've signed up for it in that case and you can decide with them what kind of fun is tolerated. With strangers though? "Fun" is a slippery criteria and efficiency, being objective, trumps it imo when weighing what to consider first.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Or they're asking for big pulls because the tank isn't doing what most people do.

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They ask at the beginning of the run.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Taking "fun" as a consideration can be a slippery slope though compared to efficiency since fun is very subjective. People may consider freestyling their abilties in endgame content as fun while it's crippling their performance (ice mage etc.), does that mean it should be tolerated just because it's fun? If you're playing with people you know (friends etc.) it doesn't matter cause you've signed up for it in that case and you can decide with them what kind of fun is tolerated. With strangers though? "Fun" is a slippery criteria and efficiency, being objective, trumps it imo when weighing what to consider first.

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That's why we have vote kick. If we have a firm disagreement on what's fun then the approach gets put to a vote. I find this method of assuming maximum efficiency and forcing it on everyone through disruptive gameplay mechanics to be incredibly rude. Seriously, if you REALLY care about maximum efficiency ask for big pulls in the 10 seconds before the instance even allows you to move forward.

Yeah, can't really agree with "using Rescue to force someone to move at your pace is polite". It's really rude to force your choices on to someone else that way.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

They ask at the beginning of the run.

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Then at that point they just letting the tank know that they want big pulls. They could be one of the few unlucky people who have frequently gotten tanks who just won't do big/normal pulls and they're sick of it and just say that as their opening line for the dungeon.

Wall to wall pulls have been a thing since Wanderer's Palace back when Tomestones of Philosophy were a thing and Warriors were completely useless as tanks... though that was just for Darklight gear and crafting stuff. Tomestones didn't really see a real purpose until the Animus step came out and then people would only spam Brayflox Longstop Hard because that dungeon let you pull everything from the very beginning to the first boss, then everything from the first boss to the second boss (most people pre-made their group and just left at the second boss and then re-entered).

Honestly if you want a tank to pull big after they pull small packs just try to encourage them. 99% of the time they pull small bc they have no confidence, are new to the content or aren't as experienced with their job. It's hilarious that tank anxiety is a thing but apparently in this thread this totally gets thrown overboard.

What's also redundant to bring up is "why are we talking about healers doing this when I died more times to tanks shrieking me!!!" Just because this one thing hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not worth to talk about. This is not a goddamn competition between tanks and healers .

maybe they can "lessen" the rescue rude pull by making it no animation lock?

everytime you get pulled, you get this "slippery/stagger/almost fell down" animation, they could just delete it so whatever attack you do when the "rescue" happen, you still doing it instead of getting interrupted because of that animation.

Tank anxiety stems for one's lack of affinity for leadership, or in this game, the illusion of leadership, and really caring a whole lot about not making a mistake so that they don't kill everyone. I can't see that as being hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, if I get pulled into aggro range am I immediately on the aggro list, or would the mobs simply kill the healer and walk away if I were to quickly lunge back to the original group of enemies without touching anything? Does 1 person in the group pulling automatically put everyone else on the aggro list?

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Just use Shirk on the offending healer.

Faced this behavior once, while the DPS of the group was extremely low. I shrugged, took a super-big pull, done my job and completed duty. I don't want to talk with such people, because they want a comfortable game only for themselves, which means that the pattern will not change.

I love big pulls as a healer and as a tank, but if for some reason tank decided to go slower or the healer asks me not to rush, okay. In the pixel world, among groups of monotonous mobs, the extra 2-3 minutes not a problem.

As for the skill, it can be very useful, and I am grateful to the people who use it quickly and accurately to save someone. Just today in the dungeon, I used it to move DPS to me so that we would not have an add from a broken container. I don’t think this guy was happy, but we had much less problems.

In general, all depends on the situation and people, not from skill. Healer just can say: "feel free to take more" and problem solved.

P. S. In the game that I played before, there was a similar ability, with the only difference being that this skill removed aggro from the party member. And if you "saved" the tank in this way, it could end in disaster. Thank god it works differently in FF XIV.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Faced this behavior once, while the DPS of the group was extremely low. I shrugged, took a super-big pull, done my job and completed duty. I don't want to talk with such people, because they want a comfortable game only for themselves, which means that the pattern will not change

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i do hope at least you ask/tell them firsthand that you want to go faster right?

if you just do that stunt without telling, that just come out you are the rude one here, they want comfortable so what? its their playstyle, you have your own.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Just use Shirk on the offending healer.

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Isn't that griefing? Likewise with letting the healer die just because you have some personal vendetta against healers attempting to encourage tanks to do large pulls?

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Originally Posted by gumas

i do hope at least you ask/tell them firsthand that you want to go faster right?

if you just do that stunt without telling, that just come out you are the rude one here, they want comfortable so what? its their playstyle, you have your own.

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I'm saying about the case when the healer simply pulled me into a bunch of mobs using Rescue and aggroing everything around. I just took these mobs and did my job. End of story. Or you wanted to know, did I asked the healer how comfortable he was by pulling me in that group of mobs? As I said, as a healer I say "feel free to take more". As a tank, I focus on the capabilities of the healer and the group. If the healer is the first time in a dungeon (players usually talk about it), I ask, ok big pulls for them or not. It’s not a problem to spend a few seconds on this simple question.

As an experienced Healer and a tank in the learning process I don't mind big pulls. I am not a fan of people pulling for me when I am tanking, but if they do they better be willing to accept any and all blame for whatever problems arise. Over month back a pre-puller in a Lab running I was doing found out the hardway that pre-pulling is not always welcomed. They were getting ahead of the raid and pre-pulling before most people were present. There Pre-pull antic's eventually led to choatic pull that wiped the raid on the bomb, during the run back to the bomb several in the raid expressed their displeasure. Including said pre-pullers group who promptly removed the pre-puller to the happiness of quite a few people in the raid. This is just some food for thought, if you are going to pre-pull make sure everyone is present and know your parties limits..

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Originally Posted by RajNish

I'm saying about the case when the healer simply pulled me into a bunch of mobs using Rescue and aggroing everything around. I just took these mobs and did my job. End of story. Or you wanted to know, did I asked the healer how comfortable he was by pulling me in that group of mobs?

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sorry, from your wording i though you are the one who do the pull

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Originally Posted by gumas

sorry, from your wording i though you are the one who do the pull

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No, I was just talking about the "Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs". I do not like this behavior, but if it happened, I will try to quickly finish duty and do other more enjoyable things. In the dungeon "Doma Castle" there are two places where the tanks firsttimers are often standing under the gun fire. Twice I had to use Rescue to move behind the guns and save them, cause fight was very intence. But usually I just jumping and writing "come here".

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Originally Posted by gumas

i do hope at least you ask/tell them firsthand that you want to go faster right?

if you just do that stunt without telling, that just come out you are the rude one here, they want comfortable so what? its their playstyle, you have your own.

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I'm getting confused now looool. Why don't we just actually ask each other in chat at thw start of the dungeon so we can know what we want.

"I want blood bath-esque pulls."

"Baby pulls please , one damn mob at a time."
..."but they link, can't have one at a time."
"You heard what I said."

"I like pulling so big that my game lags like hell."
"I can't handle that, double pulls please."

DPS: "I don't give a hippy skippy what yall want, it's about why I want. * Pulls everything*"

*Gate drops*
"Pelaton please"
"o_o ok"
*Pops sprint, pulls all things straight to boss, other 3 left behind and didn't make it before getting locked out".


Edit: LOL, I misunderstood the post that misunderstood a post.

Only one way out of this! Blame it on the ascians!

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Isn't that griefing? Likewise with letting the healer die just because you have some personal vendetta against healers attempting to encourage tanks to do large pulls?

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Wouldn't using Rescue when it's not needed be considered griefing as well? It all comes down to communication. If the healer wants bigger pulls all they have to do is say something, not arbitarily decide for themselves without consulting the tank.

Using rescue to get the tank to pull more seems to be an issue mainly on Crystal.

I decided to level an alt on Crystal to see if the memes/rumors were true about how bad people are there and yeah it's true. I've played on Primal, Light and Aether and Crystal is the only datacenter where 90% of the tanks single pull, even if the rest of the party wants to go faster(and yes even at end game). It's awful and makes these awfully boring dungeons take even longer and is where I first thought to use rescue to drag the tank into mobs.

I don't think rescue needs to be changed based off the datacenter with the "unofficial" lowest skill playerbase.

On the other hand though, I've tanked there and have watched as the healer does nothing and then I die to one pack of mobs, so I can understand a tank single pulling..... that RP data center is just....something else.