5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

50 sync is painful as DRK now. It's like Paladin used to be at level 50 you have a 1 2 3 combo and that's all.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

The shield is the reward itself, it cannot have a damage reward in it because it would break the DRK design.



Its not vacum mitigation because it makes DRK literally the easiest tank to heal in dungeons where you have a constant flow of high dmg from mobs. This contributes to healers dps and as a result you end up with faster clear even if you dont break it from time to time. On average its still contributes a good chunk of extra dps into the run.

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If I was a new player I would agree with you on that. But as someone who got into FF14 during Heavensward through 3 main factors; 1) Dark Knight being a playable job/class, 2) the combo system FF14 has for tanks and melee DPS, 3) Au Ra's existence.

The main reason I wasn't as upset with Stormblood DRK was because of "at least I still have 2 combos in single target" mentality but I did believe a lot of DRK skills needed to be buffed(which they did).

Shadowbringers DRK basically takes all of the good changes Stormblood DRK had up until that point and throws it out the window for making it more accessible to newer players, which only succeeded in doing so because of story and level skip books on the Mogstation, but at the cost of the people who planned on maining the DRK while also subbing GNB and ended up causing those people to main GNB over any other job mostly because GNB has more than 1 combo to use.

I honestly believe that level skip books should not exist for any job/class that was introduced after A Realm Reborn, and Story skip should not have existed until New Game+ was announced and fully implemented.

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Originally Posted by Falar

50 sync is painful as DRK now. It's like Paladin used to be at level 50 you have a 1 2 3 combo and that's all.

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And what’s really painful is that we now really get past that either. 50 is basically the cap of DRK evolution, everything past that is basically just a minor buff to what we already have.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

And what’s really painful is that we now really get past that either. 50 is basically the cap of DRK evolution, everything past that is basically just a minor buff to what we already have.

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*we now never really

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

The shield is the reward itself, it cannot have a damage reward in it because it would break the DRK design.

Its not vacum mitigation because it makes DRK literally the easiest tank to heal in dungeons where you have a constant flow of high dmg from mobs. This contributes to healers dps and as a result you end up with faster clear even if you dont break it from time to time. On average its still contributes a good chunk of extra dps into the run.

Also warrior does not use Nascent flash all the time and he does not use it when his health is full, since it only gives you enough time to heal from 3 GCD at max you want to use it when you are using big moves. Nascent flash is a heal afterall and comes up with some drawbacks that is making it not comparable to TBN.
It does not heal you over 100% hp, you cant add to yourself the extra health like TBN does. You need to receive damage then you could heal from damage taken, but then you have a healers who are right now wasting their time to heal you, not contributing to team dps and potentially overhealing you.

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You are comparing apples with pears, and the apples are untouched, while the pears are getting smashed into the ground.

The shield is the reward? What kinda joke is it then? I press HoS, RI or Sheltron, and I lose nothing of value. I press TBN and risk 3k mana = 500 pot on single target, this is also a requirement just as sheltron needs 50 gauge points. If this shield doesn't break, these 3k mana are lost, and thus the incoming damage was overmitigated.

The shield itself is NOT a reward. The reward is the saved heal you would've required otherwise. If you don't end up saving any heals, or end up overhealing anyway like with any other CD - because holding said heal wouldn't give you an additional use -, it's nothing special. e.g. AST uses ED in 40s intervals. IF damage peeks every 20s, THEN TBN becomes more valueable because it saves you an ED.
Unfortunately, damage peeks rarely occur every 20s, unless you play Ultimates. I am just repeating myself here, this does rarely occur in/at savage, trails, or dungeon bosses.

What do you want to say with your NF example?
Using NF when you're full health is essentially the same as using TBN when everything around you is stunned. Makes no sense.

Also, what drawbacks on NF are you talking about? TBN saves you 37k HP, but when you would've taken 50k dmg, you still take 13k dmg. With NF you just heal those 50k. Why would you use any heals for that? In those situations it's DRK who will need a heal sooner than the WAR. Your comparison is contradictory. The only benefit TBN has over NF is its short CD.
IF you cannot make use of its short CD, it loses its benefit! That's all I'm saying! If you don't need it to survive, or you don't save your healers a GCD heal - neither in the short run nor long run - it comes down to its short CD.

Last, but not least: I never said TBN is generally bad in dungeons. It just sux vs dungeon bosses or small trash pulls/dying trash.
Myself and every other person I know who touched DRK in expert have experienced, how good TBN is in mass pulls, and just how bad it is vs bosses. It occasionally doesn't break vs boss' tank busters 'cause e.g. even a sacred soil is enough to overmitigate, or you are just freaking overgeared. This is imho NOT good design.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If I was a new player I would agree with you on that. But as someone who got into FF14 during Heavensward through 3 main factors; 1) Dark Knight being a playable job/class, 2) the combo system FF14 has for tanks and melee DPS, 3) Au Ra's existence.

The main reason I wasn't as upset with Stormblood DRK was because of "at least I still have 2 combos in single target" mentality but I did believe a lot of DRK skills needed to be buffed(which they did).
Shadowbringers DRK basically takes all of the good changes Stormblood DRK had up until that point and throws it out the window for making it more accessible to newer players, which only succeeded in doing so because of story and level skip books on the Mogstation, but at the cost of the people who planned on maining the DRK while also subbing GNB and ended up causing those people to main GNB over any other job mostly because GNB has more than 1 combo to use.
I honestly believe that level skip books should not exist for any job/class that was introduced after A Realm Reborn, and Story skip should not have existed until New Game+ was announced and fully implemented.

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If you dont like current DRK you have the right to not like it, however it does not change the fact it is second the most played tank right now after 8 months into expansion.
The combo we had in Stormblood was almost never used, maybe in few instances just to build up enmity and then go out from tank stance, but it was rare anyway due to DRK who almost never been played as a MT it was always the war.
GNB is more fun to play than stormblood DRK, he has more skills to utilize and use in offensive manner. In stoormblood for the majority of expansion DRK had 2 skills completely useless, all he did was 1-2-3 with DA sometimes and had 3 offensive oGCD to weave in from time to time. It was fast, but not overly complicated and more simple than GNB right now, who has way more skills and you use them more often than stormblood drk ever had a chance.
Stormblood DRK was scrapped for a reason, majority complained about DRK being the weakest of tanks, requiring too much attention and engagement for so little rewards, and so here we are right now with current DRK. It was not possible to "upgrade" old DRK because the job would have to be slowed down in order to put more interesting skills into the kit, it was not possible to give anything new for SB DRK since he already had so fast gameplay and so annoying doubleweaving which was hard to execute with GCD sitting at around 2.2-2.3 sec.
Old DRK had to go, and if you would bring heavensward DRK today he would be outdated and outperformed by any other tank, thats it.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

You are comparing apples with pears, and the apples are untouched, while the pears are getting smashed into the ground.
The shield is the reward? What kinda joke is it then? I press HoS, RI or Sheltron, and I lose nothing of value. I press TBN and risk 3k mana = 500 pot on single target, this is also a requirement just as sheltron needs 50 gauge points. If this shield doesn't break, these 3k mana are lost, and thus the incoming damage was overmitigated.
The shield itself is NOT a reward. The reward is the saved heal you would've required otherwise. If you don't end up saving any heals, or end up overhealing anyway like with any other CD - because holding said heal wouldn't give you an additional use -, it's nothing special. e.g. AST uses ED in 40s intervals. IF damage peeks every 20s, THEN TBN becomes more valueable because it saves you an ED.
Unfortunately, damage peeks rarely occur every 20s, unless you play Ultimates. I am just repeating myself here, this does rarely occur in/at savage, trails, or dungeon bosses.

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When you press sheltron/rampart/hos/anything else you are still receiving 70-80% of the damage you would receive without it. That means healer still has to heal you.
Mathematically you have to receive equivalent of 125% of your max HP in damage in order for 20% mitigation to mitigate as much damage as TBN could mitigate out of the bat without costing your healer time, this is how powerful is 25% MAX HP shield over 20% mitigation. On top of that DRK also has an access to many different mitigations. DRK is the king here like it or not lol.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

What do you want to say with your NF example?
Using NF when you're full health is essentially the same as using TBN when everything around you is stunned. Makes no sense.
Also, what drawbacks on NF are you talking about? TBN saves you 37k HP, but when you would've taken 50k dmg, you still take 13k dmg. With NF you just heal those 50k. Why would you use any heals for that? In those situations it's DRK who will need a heal sooner than the WAR. Your comparison is contradictory. The only benefit TBN has over NF is its short CD.
IF you cannot make use of its short CD, it loses its benefit! That's all I'm saying! If you don't need it to survive, or you don't save your healers a GCD heal - neither in the short run nor long run - it comes down to its short CD.
Last, but not least: I never said TBN is generally bad in dungeons. It just sux vs dungeon bosses or small trash pulls/dying trash.
Myself and every other person I know who touched DRK in expert have experienced, how good TBN is in mass pulls, and just how bad it is vs bosses. It occasionally doesn't break vs boss' tank busters 'cause e.g. even a sacred soil is enough to overmitigate, or you are just freaking overgeared. This is imho NOT good design.

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But you dont use nascent flash all the time, dont you or you do? You shouldnt because it heals your from your damage done, which is the highest with infuriate boosted skills or in IR. Using nascent flash when using standard combo is a waste.
And how nascent flash is more useful on dungeon bosses tell me, if damage received from their tank busters is not something that would make a difference to your healer? And how your healer knows you are going to heal yourself out with nascent flash? He wont know he will still cast a healing spell anyway, no matter if you used mitigation or did not and want heal yourself with nascent flash, they cant read your intentions especially in random dungs.
On DRK i dont have a problem breaking TBN on bosses and i have 470 gear with weapon as exception and 1 ring, just use TBN alone. Just because it does not break in certain situation does not mean it is bad design lol, look at the job as a whole and not on the separate parts of its kit, DRK has other tools to mitigate those smaller damages, tbn is not his only mitigation skill to mind you.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Also, what drawbacks on NF are you talking about? TBN saves you 37k HP, but when you would've taken 50k dmg, you still take 13k dmg. With NF you just heal those 50k. Why would you use any heals for that? In those situations it's DRK who will need a heal sooner than the WAR. Your comparison is contradictory. The only benefit TBN has over NF is its short CD.
IF you cannot make use of its short CD, it loses its benefit! That's all I'm saying! If you don't need it to survive, or you don't save your healers a GCD heal - neither in the short run nor long run - it comes down to its short CD.

Last, but not least: I never said TBN is generally bad in dungeons. It just sux vs dungeon bosses or small trash pulls/dying trash.
Myself and every other person I know who touched DRK in expert have experienced, how good TBN is in mass pulls, and just how bad it is vs bosses. It occasionally doesn't break vs boss' tank busters 'cause e.g. even a sacred soil is enough to overmitigate, or you are just freaking overgeared. This is imho NOT good design.

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You have some misconceptions here. First of all, while Nascent Flash is stronger than TBN at its maximum capabilities, when you factor in that its heavy healing is only possible during IC and/or IR, and how infrequently you have access to those pieces of damage, the overall power of Nascent Flash over an entire fight suddenly plummets and TBN becomes significantly stronger overall. On a side note, my DRK is BiS and even in bosses in Twinning/Akadaemia (410 ilvl vs my 470) I rarely ever have a TBN not break. You simply mitigate the buster with TBN and nothing else, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If you dont like current DRK you have the right to not like it, however it does not change the fact it is second the most played tank right now after 8 months into expansion.

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During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

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I would pay that price for some other fixes.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

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I'd expect Dark Mind to change to compensate tbh. TBN gets to be so strong because Dark Mind doesn't work on half damage, compared to Thrill, Camoflauge, and passive block.

Getting a 66% cooldown increase for, I don't know, nothing or 200 DPS is a raw deal imo.

I still miss Dark Dance. That was one of a million skills we lost going from Heavensward to Stormblood.

Now that Anticipation is gone as a role skill we could potentially get it back hopefully with the ability to evade and parry magic attacks this time.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I would pay that price for some other fixes.

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Ahh, but our gameplay is fine, remember? That's why we have so many players... Surely DRK, of all jobs, wouldn't need anything to compensate for TBN. It's not like a quarter of all DRKs play DRK just for TBN, after all.

.....

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

When you press sheltron/rampart/hos/anything [...]

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Nothing you said there counters my arguments.
Yours and Lucy_Pyres problem/misconception here is, you actually are looking at TBN in a vacuum instead of looking at the full toolkit, or the practical use.

I've looked up some Voidwalker runs for WARs and DRKs to compare their healing here. The highest HPS DRK has 2970 HPS, the highest HPS WAR has 2588 HPS without Shake it off. But there is a catch, this particular DRK didn't break - at the very least - 7 TBN, probably even more (I guess 12 based on the buff duration / 29 TBN vs 22 EoD used [~37 possible]). That's a 3500-6000 potency loss!
If we ignore those failed breaks from the overall HPS we end up with 2520-2194 HPS on DRK. That is lower than the WARs' one. TBN may have proven as a strong mitigation tool, but in this case it caused a huge DPS loss.
This actually shows how flawed TBN is.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

On top of that DRK also has an access to many different mitigations.

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Eh, if you hit a non-magical fight, you acutally end up with less mitigation than the other tank jobs. You should know that.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you dont use nascent flash all the time, dont you or you do? [...]

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If you use it every ~30s you'll have the highest HPS possible, ideally every single one paired with Upheaval.
If your healer heals you directly after a hit and don't let the tank handle it, it's on the healer not trusting the tank. But why would you waste GCD heals? Or are you concerned about oGCD heals, too? Why tho?
Explain your problem here! In every single one of your posts you state that healers lose DPS uptime by healing the tank. You speak of the worst possible pug situtations, and those are irrelevant to actual balance, nor can we treat them as the norm.
Just like the Benediction into Superbolide situtations. They happen, so is Superbolide a sh*tty skill because of this? No, ofc not!

TBN is a strong mitigation tool, but it's still a flawed tool!
It's fine in dungeon pulls and ultimates, maybe even trails and savage on minimum item level. But more often than not, we end up asking ourselves if we should actually use it instead of "just do it". Yet, for good reasons.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

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Refer to the practical Voidwalker run above, case closed.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Refer to the practical Voidwalker run above, case closed.

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Case not closed. Like I said before, at its maximum potential Nascent is more powerful than TBN, this is true. However, the factor that makes TBN overall stronger than Nascent is when you factor in TBN's potential uptime and then compare it to how often Warrior is able to heal 37k+ HP from NF (as 37k is the amount of shielding TBN grants on a BiS tank). Since NF heals for 50% of damage dealt during, in order to heal 37k+ HP you need to deal a minimum of 74k damage during the 6 second window. This simply isn't possible if all you have available for NF is your basic 1-2-3 weaponskills at the given time during which you need to use it. You need at a minimum to use a Fell Cleave + Upheaval (not during IR) or an Inner Chaos charge in order to have NF's healing be comparable to the eHP that TBN's shielding gives you, and as Upheaval is on a strict 30 second CD which you keep rolling at all times, and Infuriate charges are primarily held for burst windows with raid buffs, this is often simply not possible to do. In other words; yes, if you need to use NF during IR or at a point where you can blow two Infuriate's on it, its healing is significantly more powerful than that of which TBN's shielding can offer (the rough maximum I have healed from dummy testing was around 75k HP healed from 2x IC, 1x IR FC, 1x IR Upheaval, and two auto attacks). However, over the entire course of a fight TBN will total out to a greater amount of eHP due to its uptime and its consistent level of mitigation, whereas NF's mitigation value and eHP fluctuates based upon your damage output at any given moment.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Case not closed. Like I said before, at its maximum potential Nascent is more powerful than TBN, this is true. However, the factor that makes TBN overall stronger than Nascent is when you factor in TBN's potential uptime and then compare it to how often Warrior is able to heal 37k+ HP from NF (as 37k is the amount of shielding TBN grants on a BiS tank). Since NF heals for 50% of damage dealt during, in order to heal 37k+ HP you need to deal a minimum of 74k damage during the 6 second window. This simply isn't possible if all you have available for NF is your basic 1-2-3 weaponskills at the given time during which you need to use it. You need at a minimum to use a Fell Cleave + Upheaval (not during IR) or an Inner Chaos charge in order to have NF's healing be comparable to the eHP that TBN's shielding gives you, and as Upheaval is on a strict 30 second CD which you keep rolling at all times, and Infuriate charges are primarily held for burst windows with raid buffs, this is often simply not possible to do. In other words; yes, if you need to use NF during IR or at a point where you can blow two Infuriate's on it, its healing is significantly more powerful than that of which TBN's shielding can offer (the rough maximum I have healed from dummy testing was around 75k HP healed from 2x IC, 1x IR FC, 1x IR Upheaval, and two auto attacks). However, over the entire course of a fight TBN will total out to a greater amount of eHP due to its uptime and its consistent level of mitigation, whereas NF's mitigation value and eHP fluctuates based upon your damage output at any given moment.

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Except Nascent Flash isn't a high chance of DPS loss like The Blackest Night...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Except Nascent Flash isn't a high chance of DPS loss like The Blackest Night...

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The only time TBN is a "high" chance of losing DPS is if you are blantantly using it incorrectly. Which, if you're doing, is entirely a you problem. The only times I don't have TBN break, even in dungeons on my DRK who massively overgears the content, is when I misuse it. Sorry to break it to ya.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

The only time TBN is a "high" chance of losing DPS is if you are blantantly using it incorrectly. Which, if you're doing, is entirely a you problem. The only times I don't have TBN break, even in dungeons on my DRK who massively overgears the content, is when I misuse it. Sorry to break it to ya.

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Then you are probably standing in things that you shouldn't be standing in because you are trying to get it to break, which need I remind you is not worth wasting 3k MP if your were going to use it on for DPS anyway... just cut out the middle man that is The Blackest Night...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Then you are probably standing in things that you shouldn't be standing in because you are trying to get it to break, which need I remind you is not worth wasting 3k MP if your were going to use it on for DPS anyway... just cut out the middle man that is The Blackest Night...

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No, actually, I'm not. You see the thing is, I actually know when I can use TBN and get it to break. Are there times where I go into a dungeon and my TBN won't break? Absolutely. The only real times this happens is in the pulls in Twinning prior to the first boss (barring the very last double pull). However, outside of those times every piece of level 80 content in the game currently you can make use of TBN properly. Expert roulette dungeon tankbusters/trash pulls you are quite capable of making consistent use of TBN and getting it to break, and no, you don't have to stand in anything in order to do so. Frankly, you are proving that you have a critically flawed understanding of both the job itself as well as the game's content, as one of the skills that every tank should easily develop is an accurate understanding of how much damage dungeons pulls do and how much they are capable of managing on average. This requires factoring in all of your cooldowns. If you are not capable of getting your TBN to break in these dungeons then you are objectively using it wrong, as I can get it to break without issue and without standing in AoEs, and my tanks are 470 BiS; meaning that I have the maximum possible amount of HP and the shield is still breaking.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

No, actually, I'm not. You see the thing is, I actually know when I can use TBN and get it to break. Are there times where I go into a dungeon and my TBN won't break? Absolutely. The only real times this happens is in the pulls in Twinning prior to the first boss (barring the very last double pull). However, outside of those times every piece of level 80 content in the game currently you can make use of TBN properly. Expert roulette dungeon tankbusters/trash pulls you are quite capable of making consistent use of TBN and getting it to break, and no, you don't have to stand in anything in order to do so. Frankly, you are proving that you have a critically flawed understanding of both the job itself as well as the game's content, as one of the skills that every tank should easily develop is an accurate understanding of how much damage dungeons pulls do and how much they are capable of managing on average. This requires factoring in all of your cooldowns. If you are not capable of getting your TBN to break in these dungeons then you are objectively using it wrong, as I can get it to break without issue and without standing in AoEs, and my tanks are 470 BiS; meaning that I have the maximum possible amount of HP and the shield is still breaking.

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TBN is only really good in Ultimate like a lot of people have said, but I wouldn't know since it's not content I would run regularly, especially if I were to main DRK this expansion, and with this expansion killing fun for most tanks, DRK especially, it killed any possibility of me running Ultimate and maybe Savage...

And like you said TBN is really good if there is a lot of outgoing damage from the enemies... but there lies the first problem; "IF" not "WHEN"

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Case is closed.

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You could've saved your entire post there, everything you just wrote ignores the practical use and the facts I stated in my previous post.

Go out there and find cases where TBN does not cause a damage loss and still provides more eHPS DRK vs. WAR in a 5.1 savage fight. Until then you're proven wrong, nothing else. That just shows you have no practical experience with NF.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

TBN is only really good in Ultimate like a lot of people have said, but I wouldn't know since it's not content I would run regularly, especially if I were to main DRK this expansion, and with this expansion killing fun for most tanks, DRK especially, it killed any possibility of me running Ultimate and maybe Savage...

And like you said TBN is really good if there is a lot of outgoing damage from the enemies... but there lies the first problem; "IF" not "WHEN"

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No, that's blatantly wrong. TBN is good in, frankly, every piece of content. It may shine the hardest in Ultimate but that's simply because of how much damage is going out in that content. The skill is still the single most powerful mitigation skill in the entire game, regardless of whether you're in Ultimate, Savage, Extreme, or level cap dungeons. The "if, not when" argument doesn't work because you have complete control and freedom on TBN's time of usage, nulling that counterargument entirely.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

You could've saved your entire post there, everything you just wrote ignores the practical use and the facts I stated in my previous post.

Go out there and find cases where TBN does not cause a damage loss and still provides more eHPS DRK vs. WAR in a 5.1 savage fight. Until then you're proven wrong, nothing else. That just shows you have no practical experience with NF.

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I think Lucy_Pyre is just butt hurt that they are being told that they are wrong... but I have been wrong before...

EDIT: Lucy Pyre is butt hurt that they are being told that they are wrong...

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

You could've saved your entire post there, everything you just wrote ignores the practical use and the facts I stated in my previous post.

Go out there and find cases where TBN does not cause a damage loss and still provides more eHPS DRK vs. WAR in a 5.1 savage fight. Until then you're proven wrong, nothing else. That just shows you have no practical experience with NF.

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My guy, you have not proven anything. If you read my prior post you will see that I showed exactly how TBN provides more eHP than NF. I explained it quite clearly and even gave numbers to back it up. The only time TBN provides a damage loss is if it does not break, and even boss AUTO ATTACKS in EX/Savage will break the shield. So if you aren't having TBN break in that level of content then that is 100% a problem with how you are using the ability, and you should improve upon it. There's a reason that TBN pre-pull is standard for DRK, because you can TBN yourself and then immediately pull the boss, and the first two auto attacks that the boss does will proceed to immediately break the shield. So, in other words, you need to use the ability properly.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I think Lucy_Pyre is just butt hurt that they are being told that they are wrong... but I have been wrong before...

EDIT: Lucy Pyre is butt hurt that they are being told that they are wrong...

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No, I'm trying to explain to someone who has an objectively flawed understanding of how the game and abilities work how, in fact, the game and abilities work. You simply can't accept that you're wrong even when raw numbers are shown to you.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

No, I'm trying to explain to someone who has an objectively flawed understanding of how the game and abilities work how, in fact, the game and abilities work. You simply can't accept that you're wrong even when raw numbers are shown to you.

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People are going to choose the path of least resistance for anything, which in MMOs means how many GCD healing spells is the mimimum amount for healers if nobody messes up mechanics. For DRK; what is the minimum amount of TBNs do they need. PLD; can they not use Clemency.

Then you have fights where some of the mechanics are too complicated/random that you do "stack in middle" strat...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

People are going to choose the path of least resistance for anything, which in MMOs means how many GCD healing spells is the mimimum amount for healers if nobody messes up mechanics. For DRK; what is the minimum amount of TBNs do they need. PLD; can they not use Clemency.

Then you have fights where some of the mechanics are too complicated/random that you do "stack in middle" strat...

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Bruh, you literally cannot compare TBN to Clemency. They work ENTIRELY differently. Clemency is an on-GCD ability that comes at a direct cost to a cut in the Paladin's total DPS output. The Blackest Night is an off-GCD ability that, when used properly (Read: Which should be every use of it) is 2x as mana efficient as Edge/Flood of Shadow, as that 3,000 MP is not only mitigating 37k eHP worth of damage, but it is giving you Dark Arts which allows you to then use EoS/FoS for free. Clemency is a DPS loss at any time that it is used while TBN is a DPS loss only when it is used improperly and does not break, the two abilities are not comparable in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Bruh, you literally cannot compare TBN to Clemency. They work ENTIRELY differently. Clemency is an on-GCD ability that comes at a direct cost to a cut in the Paladin's total DPS output. The Blackest Night is an off-GCD ability that, when used properly (Read: Which should be every use of it) is 2x as mana efficient as Edge/Flood of Shadow, as that 3,000 MP is not only mitigating 37k eHP worth of damage, but it is giving you Dark Arts which allows you to then use EoS/FoS for free. Clemency is a DPS loss at any time that it is used while TBN is a DPS loss only when it is used improperly and does not break, the two abilities are not comparable in the slightest.

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If I can't compare Clemency to TBN, then you shouldn't compare TBN with Nascent Flash

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If I can't compare Clemency to TBN, then you shouldn't compare TBN with Nascent Flash

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Wrong, because Nascent Flash and The Blackest Night are both off-GCD abilities that are used for the same purpose. Clemency, while it is used for the same purpose, is ON the GCD and as such is cannot be compared to either of these two abilities. Combine this with the fact that TBN gives DA that allows you to use your DPS mana-spender while Clemency does no such thing and it further enforces the point that these abilities are not comparable, as they serve objectively different purposes for their respective jobs. TBN is a core ability to Dark Knight while Clemency is a spell that sees only niche use with the Paladin. They do not serve the same function and as such can not be directly compared against one another.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Wrong, because Nascent Flash and The Blackest Night are both off-GCD abilities that are used for the same purpose. Clemency, while it is used for the same purpose, is ON the GCD and as such is cannot be compared to either of these two abilities. Combine this with the fact that TBN gives DA that allows you to use your DPS mana-spender while Clemency does no such thing and it further enforces the point that these abilities are not comparable, as they serve objectively different purposes for their respective jobs. TBN is a core ability to Dark Knight while Clemency is a spell that sees only niche use with the Paladin. They do not serve the same function and as such can not be directly compared against one another.

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Then I should be allowed to compare Clemency to TBN since they both use MP by your logic, just like how you compare Nascent Flash to TBN since they serve the same purpose.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Then I should be allowed to compare Clemency to TBN since they both use MP by your logic, just like how you compare Nascent Flash to TBN since they serve the same purpose.

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I quite literally in the post you quoted explained why TBN and Clemency are not comparable to one another. I suggest that you learn to read.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

I quite literally in the post you quoted explained why TBN and Clemency are not comparable to one another. I suggest that you learn to read.

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I suggest you do the same.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

My guy, you have not proven anything. If you read my prior post you will see that I showed exactly how TBN provides more eHP than NF. I explained it quite clearly and even gave numbers to back it up. The only time TBN provides a damage loss is if it does not break, and even boss AUTO ATTACKS in EX/Savage will break the shield. So if you aren't having TBN break in that level of content then that is 100% a problem with how you are using the ability, and you should improve upon it. There's a reason that TBN pre-pull is standard for DRK, because you can TBN yourself and then immediately pull the boss, and the first two auto attacks that the boss does will proceed to immediately break the shield. So, in other words, you need to use the ability properly.

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With this post you have proven that you have no practical experience with neither TBN nor NF in savage. 2 AUTO ATTACKS in Ex OR Savage DO NOT break the shield once you're BiS! An AA from a boss does ~15k dmg, your shield has more than 30k, this doesn't break it! And jfyi I did use TBN on pull in Savage and Ex trials at one point, and guess what - it doesn't break over 50% of the time - so I stoped doing that because I couldn't ensure it breaks.

And the point is: if you use TBN only when you can ensure that it breaks within 7s, you do NOT use it on CD. Once you start NOT using it on CD, it because less effective than NF, period!

The cases in which TBN will save your *ss when other abilities cannot are less than 0.1%. This is not what I am saying, this is what pro tank players are saying, and they have played hundreds of savage runs.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

No, I'm trying to explain to someone who has an objectively flawed understanding of how the game and abilities work how, in fact, the game and abilities work. You simply can't accept that you're wrong even when raw numbers are shown to you.

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You haven't shown raw numbers, you used THEORY numbers. And - one last time, just for you - THEORY =/= PRACTICE. You cannot compare your so-called "raw numbers" with an actual fight, that don't practice your theory because IT DOES NOT WORK that way.

Your understanding of NF is also heavily lacking. I would not be surprised if you start telling me that RI is better than NF...

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

-snip-

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Titan savage auto attacks for 32k damage. TBN shields you for 37k HP at BiS. A single auto attack from Titan will leave you with only 4-5k HP left on the shield, based on the variance in damage from his auto attack. The following auto attack 2-3 seconds later will break it, granting you Dark Arts. Eden Prime in E1S autos for around 24k, meaning that two autos total out to around 48k damage and, thus, a broken TBN. Hades EX autos for around the same that Eden Prime savage autos for. The fact that you claim to understand the inner workings of this job and its core ability, yet don't even understand the situations in which the ability can be properly utilized and applied, tells me that you have a woefully lacking in your overall knowledge and understanding. Frankly, you have done an extremely good job of proving that you don't understand the things you are saying. Bosses auto attacking for 15k? Please show me a savage boss that auto attacks for 15k damage that's level 80. Go ahead, I'll wait patiently. Spoiler alert: you can't do it, because none of them auto attack that low. Even Titania/Innocence EX, the very first levels of level 80 high end content, tuned for ilvl 430, still auto attack for around 20k damage and yes, even they can break TBN in two auto attacks. It's just barely enough, but they can manage it (not that you would even remotely need to be TBN'ing their auto attacks at BiS to begin with, but I digress).

So you can claim that you're repeating what "pro tank players" say, but your lies don't hold any weight. If "pro" tank players thought that TBN was so bad then why would DRK be the second most popular tank in current savage by a significant margin? Seeing as, y'know, the only thing "special" DRK has going for it is its powerful mitigation. To answer that rhetorical question, it simply would not be so popular if that were the case. However, the reality is that it isn't the case, and TBN is in fact as powerful as I have said it is. You may not agree with that, but that's fine. Your understanding of the ability is flawed and you don't even know how much damage bosses are doing to you with auto attacks, so I don't expect you to understand enemy damage profiles and the strength/optimization of your cooldowns when you don't even understand a concept as simple as a boss auto attack, how much damage it does, and how you are capable of mitigating it.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Titan savage auto attacks for 32k damage. TBN shields you for 37k HP at BiS. A single auto attack from Titan will leave you with only 4-5k HP left on the shield, based on the variance in damage from his auto attack. The following auto attack 2-3 seconds later will break it, granting you Dark Arts. Eden Prime in E1S autos for around 24k, meaning that two autos total out to around 48k damage and, thus, a broken TBN. Hades EX autos for around the same that Eden Prime savage autos for. The fact that you claim to understand the inner workings of this job and its core ability, yet don't even understand the situations in which the ability can be properly utilized and applied, tells me that you have a woefully lacking in your overall knowledge and understanding. Frankly, you have done an extremely good job of proving that you don't understand the things you are saying. Bosses auto attacking for 15k? Please show me a savage boss that auto attacks for 15k damage that's level 80. Go ahead, I'll wait patiently. Spoiler alert: you can't do it, because none of them auto attack that low. Even Titania/Innocence EX, the very first levels of level 80 high end content, tuned for ilvl 430, still auto attack for around 20k damage and yes, even they can break TBN in two auto attacks. It's just barely enough, but they can manage it (not that you would even remotely need to be TBN'ing their auto attacks at BiS to begin with, but I digress).

So you can claim that you're repeating what "pro tank players" say, but your lies don't hold any weight. If "pro" tank players thought that TBN was so bad then why would DRK be the second most popular tank in current savage by a significant margin? Seeing as, y'know, the only thing "special" DRK has going for it is its powerful mitigation. To answer that rhetorical question, it simply would not be so popular if that were the case. However, the reality is that it isn't the case, and TBN is in fact as powerful as I have said it is. You may not agree with that, but that's fine. Your understanding of the ability is flawed and you don't even know how much damage bosses are doing to you with auto attacks, so I don't expect you to understand enemy damage profiles and the strength/optimization of your cooldowns when you don't even understand a concept as simple as a boss auto attack, how much damage it does, and how you are capable of mitigating it.

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Now for the big question, have you done Alexander Ultimate and cleared it?

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

so much nonsense in so much text

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Funny, you accuse me of telling lies, but you still couldn't tell me ONE... PRACTICAL... USE of TBN vs NF where TBN is CLEARLY the winner. You also twist my words to benefit yourself. Who is telling lies now?!

Oh, and god forgive me, there are AAs in savage other than E2s that hit for more than 20k - IF NO OTHER CD is active - IF NO CAST is being casted in the next 3s. Oh my lord, from those so many AAs that could break the shield... no wait... that doesn't... oh, there are only 35 AAs in the first 3 and a half minute on Titan. Now that's a WHOLE LOT of opportunities to mitigate and break the shield? No!
Your theory DOES NOT WORK IN PRACTICE! Have you ever played with DRK, and mapped out a perfect mitigation rotation where TBN will surely break? I guess you have, otherwise you wouldn't write this...

FACT: The fastest kills on E1s have DRKs using 6-7 TBN - at most! - while WAR used 7 NF. Do I really need to do maths here?

USING TBN ON CD IS NOT PRACTICAL USE!

TBN is the best anti-tankbusters and anti-aoe defensive skill of the game right now, it's basically busted against that kind of damage and the resuslt of the DRK preference of many players due how strong the shield is independent of his poor gameplay. yes represent a 500 oGCD waste if is used poorly aka against AA for example since a single AA doesn't break the shield and the boss just need start casting something or starting a mechanic after an AA to screw you easily so TBN is never used against AA excep the opener and depends of the combat too. against AA DRK have superior hp drain with souleater as pasive mitigation superior to WAR and GNB ones (this 2 have dedicated free self heals skills too to compensate this).

it can have situations where TBN doesn't break on dungeons due how laughable are this content right now but you can use rampart or shadow wall alone and move but is a problem of the shield being to strong not of the desing of the mechanic itself, TBN is the last unique mechanic DRK keeps for himselfl, it needs to be preserved other wise just delete DRK from the game already.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Truth

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Basiclly this. All I've tried to say all along.

Great summary.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If I can't compare Clemency to TBN, then you shouldn't compare TBN with Nascent Flash

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"You shouldn't compare GCDs to oGCDs?! Well then you can't compare oGCDs to oGCDs either!"

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So you've got these things called apples. You can compare them with other apples.
You also have these things called defensive short-CD abilities. You can compare them with other defensive short-CD abilities.

A with A, B with B, so on and so forth.

We can call TBN a mystical red-haired unicorn, last of its breed. Or we can compare to the things it's meant to replace and function as similarly as possible to it.

But let's not conflate the uselessness of comparing a damage-wasting, combo-breaking GCD skill with a mitigation oGCD.

tl;dr: Lucy is likely overrating TBN and underrating NF here, but the two absolutely can be compared with little surrounding context in ways TBN and Clemency cannot.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Nothing you said there counters my arguments.
Yours and Lucy_Pyres problem/misconception here is, you actually are looking at TBN in a vacuum instead of looking at the full toolkit, or the practical use.
I've looked up some Voidwalker runs for WARs and DRKs to compare their healing here. The highest HPS DRK has 2970 HPS, the highest HPS WAR has 2588 HPS without Shake it off. But there is a catch, this particular DRK didn't break - at the very least - 7 TBN, probably even more (I guess 12 based on the buff duration / 29 TBN vs 22 EoD used [~37 possible]). That's a 3500-6000 potency loss!
If we ignore those failed breaks from the overall HPS we end up with 2520-2194 HPS on DRK. That is lower than the WARs' one. TBN may have proven as a strong mitigation tool, but in this case it caused a huge DPS loss.
This actually shows how flawed TBN is.
Eh, if you hit a non-magical fight, you acutally end up with less mitigation than the other tank jobs. You should know that.

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If you actually tried to gather real numbers and try to see how big real impact does nascent flash has in actual raid you would notice that its almost completely useless there, just taking a look at the top world teams and their runs in titan savage.
The amount of heal from this particular ability is so low that it only contributes 10-15% of his Warrior total healing per second. But sure its the TBN that is flawed and nascent flash is all okay and better, LOL.
At least TBN is surpassing regular regeneration on DRK sitting at around 30% of total hps, where nascent flash is two times smaller than his own regeneration.
Same stuff if you look into voidwalker numbers, nascent flash does not contribute much.
Why this happens? Because healers are absolutely capable of healing a tank and entire team with their bloated healing kit to the point where healers are overhealing by 20-40% even in the best raid statics. They dont need a help from warriors nascent flash to keep him up and running, a shield will work just better or any other mitigation in this case which will negate a portion of damage.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

USING TBN ON CD IS NOT PRACTICAL USE!

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*rubs temples*

No one is saying to use TBN on cooldown. What is being said is that, use-per-use, TBN is the most powerful mitigation cooldown in the game.

Maximum mitigation potential: NF > TBN
Minimum mitigation potential: TBN > NF
Average mitigation per-use: TBN > NF

This is, once again, based upon the fact that NF's healing is based upon the damage that the Warrior deals, and Warrior only deals significant damage for around 12-15 seconds out of every 90 second cycle. If you use a singular Inner Chaos or a non-IR Fell Cleave and Upheaval in the Nascent Flash, then the healing that you gain is roughly equal to the amount of damage prevented by The Blackest Night. However, this is, once again, not always and often is not possible. There is also the point of healers, which is worth mentioning, because depending on the situation part of the Warrior's health that they are using NF to self-heal may be healed by the healers during this process, which further reduces the strength of NF. So while Nascent is stronger at its maximum potential healing value, the average healing that you will get over a fight compared to the mitigation that TBN offers, which is consistent per-use, means that TBN is overall a stronger ability. If you cannot accept that, that's on you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions are entirely capable of being wrong. Mitigation and how strong Dark Knight is at it is the primary reason that the job is so extremely popular right now.