SE needs to do more to help bad players

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Originally Posted by Nims

(of course you main samurai....).

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I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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So to elaborate on my point before.

There is a difference between contributing by being extremely basic at your role and contributing by going beyond the basics.

Contributing through healing alone is equal to a Tank holding Aggro and a DPS dealing damage. They all mean little to nothing on their own but you need them all to clear a run.

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Originally Posted by Nims

I mean...you asked....



The game technically doesn't say it has the best community, part of the playerbase says that. And I personally don't care how the community is, not sure why you're trying to use this as a point. Thinking "Oh the community is so nice so I can play like absolute garbage and it's ok" is not ok. This is also why I'm for parsers, in a community where people call other people out, this way of thinking isn't broadcast openly.



No you can't turn that around, I'm not going out of my way to make things worse for other people. So again...why is it acceptable for you to ruin other people's fun? Why is it acceptable for you to make things take drastically longer than they should? Not because you're new, not because you don't know the mechanics or are practing the mechanics but simply because you want to make things go worse?


Um, no? This community needs to take responsibility for it's own actions. The person that got the death threat was an old WoW player that actually likes this game more than WoW now. The person that made the threat was a long time FFXIV player....



So why don't you just build a team of people you know and only do dungeons with them? That way you all can press only the cool animations (of course you main samurai....). Making the game harder weeds out people like you and I'm totally okay with that.

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Because unlike you, when I don't get upset with players around me when I use a convenience tool for fast grouping. I accept what it gives me.


I mean, at one point in time this game did take pride on the community it has. Just players like you been getting louder and louder.



The sad thing is, I'm not saying that your views are wrong. I'm just stating this battle you won't win. You can adjust to the bad players or not. You can't force players to play how you want them to do it.


So I guess the saying does go. You don't pay for our subs :). and if being bad ruins your fun. Thank you for paying that heavy burden.


Also neato I made someone sig. I like that comment I made. Thank you :)

Don't wanna end up like WoW with lfr

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I'm sorry.

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It's okay sweet summer child.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Because unlike you, when I don't get upset with players around me when I use a convenience tool for fast grouping. I accept what it gives me.
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Because it's a covenience tool does not make it acceptable for you to not even try. There's one thing, again, to just generally not be good. It's another to not even try. You simply aren't even trying.

And if you accept what's given to you, why not accept that people are going to expect you to play your class properly and atleast try?

It's a two way street.

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You can't force players to play how you want them to do it.

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We aren't asking for that. We're atleast asking for ways to deal with them that doesn't punish us.

Why am I getting a temp ban for saying you're garbage when you KNOW you're garbage?
Why am I getting a 30 minute penalty for leaving a group with people that only uses 2 skills because they have cool animations?
Why is it there a 2 hour (fact check on that, I know it's like an hour to three hours) cool down on kicking people when there's many people that refuse to try?

This game gives people like you too many chances, tools, and opportunity to harass (cause that's what it is at this point) other players.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Hm? I am trying to what I want to do. As much as my fun factor will let me. If that means it takes a extra 5 to 10 mins of a run being slower. I'm willing to put that burden on my group. As long as it gets done that is all that matters, and if that ruins your fun. I'm not really sorry about that. Lucky for you, I don't group with players unless I got to do it.

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You simply can not do what you want in a group setting with randoms. Again it's a two way street, I can not expect randoms to play the way I want them and I don't when I'm pugging. Why are you exempt from basic human decency by actually playing your class and being considerate?

Welp if you keep getting kicked don't blame it on the "community" and gripe about how the "community" isn't the best any more.

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Originally Posted by Nims

It's okay sweet summer child.



Because it's a covenience tool does not make it acceptable for you to not even try. There's one thing, again, to just generally not be good. It's another to not even try. You simply aren't even trying.

And if you accept what's given to you, why not accept that people are going to expect you to play your class properly and atleast try?

It's a two way street.

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Hm? I am trying to what I want to do. As much as my fun factor will let me. If that means it takes a extra 5 to 10 mins of a run being slower. I'm willing to put that burden on my group. As long as it gets done that is all that matters, and if that ruins your fun. I'm not really sorry about that. Lucky for you, I don't group with players unless I got to do it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Because unlike you, when I don't get upset with players around me when I use a convenience tool for fast grouping. I accept what it gives me.


I mean, at one point in time this game did take pride on the community it has. Just players like you been getting louder and louder.



The sad thing is, I'm not saying that your views are wrong. I'm just stating this battle you won't win. You can adjust to the bad players or not. You can't force players to play how you want them to do it.


So I guess the saying does go. You don't pay for our subs :). and if being bad ruins your fun. Thank you for paying that heavy burden.

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So I just want to pose a question to you. If on the off chance that one day the duty finder just happend to pair you with a full group that did not believe in doing anything but auto-attacking, how long would you stick it out before saying anything? I know it is an unlikely scenario, but it is fully within the realm of possibilities, and odds are in that situation you would have to carry the whole group to even have a chance of completing it, you might even have to convince someone to push an ability.

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Originally Posted by Nims

Only white knights praise this community, others don't care and the rest sees this community for what it is. People that literally send death threatens if you criticize the game.

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Are you a lazypeon fan by any chance?
He tweeted about death threats but never actually gave any evidence of such after he has been asked to do so, also he just deleted this tweet where he wrote down about it and never ever got involved in it at all.

Do you really believe in his lies? Thats sad how easy it is to manipulate people through 1 tweet. xD

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

So I just want to pose a question to you. If on the off chance that one day the duty finder just happend to pair you with a full group that did not believe in doing anything but auto-attacking, how long would you stick it out before saying anything? I know it is an unlikely scenario, but it is fully within the realm of possibilities, and odds are in that situation you would have to carry the whole group to even have a chance of completing it, you might even have to convince someone to push an ability.

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I would not get upset. I might just laugh, and be like well we can't do this. I will try a new group later.

At the end of the day, I'm happy if people enjoying the game, even if it takes a little bit longer.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Are you a lazypeon fan by any chance?

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No, a twitch streamer (Scottzone) slightly criticized Eden (he over all enjoys FFXIV) and was sent a death threat that he actually showed on stream....then got a 30 day ban for it. However the hate over Lazypeon's video is just as valid too. There was a thread made here about it (I mean why?) and then this community went there and started harassing him.

I love Archeage, many people don't. I'd never go out of my way to attack someone that doesn't like Archeage.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Are you a lazypeon fan by any chance?
He tweeted about death threats but never actually gave any evidence of such after he has been asked to do so, also he just deleted this tweet where he wrote down about it and never ever got involved in it at all.

Do you really believe in his lies? Thats sad how easy it is to manipulate people through 1 tweet. xD

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Welcome to the Future...
1 person says something, the masses believe it.

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He tweeted about death threats but never actually gave any evidence of such after he has been asked to do so, also he just deleted this tweet where he wrote down about it.

Do you really believe in his lies?

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I have no doubt he got death threats from a youtube video, because you get death threats from saner people than the hardcore MMO crowd for saying less offensive things about topics like the weather, the best building material for a shed, the frequency at which you should change an air filter, and what the sell by date on food means.


People are getting death threats and doxxing attempts on their families for REPORTING NEWS TOPICS on youtube. Its a cesspool.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Good job on illustrating my point.
First, that someone in the party was required to Heal in some capacity. In this case, you on your RDM. Every outgoing heal you had slowed the run down.
Second, you were reduced to a single pull only snail pace.

Now recreate that scenario in your head, but answer me this: How far would you have gotten if you hadn't taken over the role of Healer?

And to make sure you understand what I'm saying, The entire point of the challenge was to demonstrate that a Healer in the party contributes to the success and speed of the run without ever casting a damage dealing spell.

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If I didn't step in to heal, it would have been just a little dicier, but doable. Of course, DRK had its own healing tools as well. Do you want me to recreate this scenario without DRK using abilities like Abyssal Drain and Soul Eater as well?

Also, 20 minutes = snails pace? That's pretty good for basically three strangers adjusting.

And you completely missed what my scenario painted for you. If I am able to DPS and heal on RDM, it means that I had time to DPS without worrying about the tank sampling some fine Hell's Lid dirt. RDM doesn't have regens, it doesn't have shields, it doesn't have oCGD heals. So we are talking about raw heals that cost a good amount of MP. All I did is prove that for most of that dungeon, that someone on a Healer job is not necessary.


I can guarantee that people would rather take me on RDM than have a Healer that just heals and idles.

People die sometimes. Mechanics are easy to miss even if you have some familiarity with them from other dungeons. I get the side of the argument that Healers should DPS to make things go faster, but if they are keeping people healed and no one is dying, I'm not going to gripe that they aren't damaging and I am not going to vote to kick them either. For some people, maybe they are doing a new role or just came back from time off the game. Maybe they aren't comfortable with the loadout or the resource management yet, but still need to do and clear content to progress.

If you are looking for a quicker run and you are pugging the dungeon, then that is your issue. Join a FC or get some of your current FC members to form a group with you. I get that runs can take forever sometimes, but insisting others play their character to the same expectations you would play them is again a "you" issue. If you are upset enough to kick them for it or berate them then it is clear that you do not care about their enjoyment or play style so why should they care about yours? There are already tools out there to narrow your search for content clears like Group Finder, Free companies etc. Complaining about how others play when you matched with them because you didn't use those other tools (or people weren't available in them) seems more about you wanting to be catered to and less about what someone else is doing.

Some people may not be as uber as you are in a certain role, but so what? Its a game to be played and enjoyed. Just because you may have a ton of experience in the runs/dungeons doesn't mean someone else does. And approaching it in a "you need to play this way or else" manner does not help anything get better and just makes the community more toxic. I was bad once, I'm sure there are things I am still bad at. Others took the time to speak to me like a person, not an employee and I learned some things along the way. Struggling doesn't mean they aren't trying..

All SE has to do is to become less strict when it comes to "harassment" and let the community police it self.

At the moment we are not only forbidden to point anything out no matter how ridiculous it is, like a SAM doing the least DPS in a party for example.
We cant even tell someone to use X or do Y cause the special snowflake might see it as a form of harassment and report you to the trigger happy GMs.

I agree, they need a training facility to help improve player skills.

It could be a list of different things to improve.
> Stack mechanics
> Avoidance / dodging (a continuous barrage of random line AOE to dodge)
> AOE markers
> Doritos
> Keeping aggro
> Being a crazy healer
> the list goes on and on...

Something that just pushes people to their limit, even people that are used to savage content could benefit the higher levels of training. It could even have a continuous mode to just keep going until you're tired or die. Leaderboards could even be added to make people more excited about it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I would not get upset. I might just laugh, and be like well we can't do this. I will try a new group later.

At the end of the day, I'm happy if people enjoying the game, even if it takes a little bit longer.

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Could you laugh it off thousands of times though?

While the above situation would be a rarity for you, and easy to laugh off a few times,
the equivalent of it for better players happens much more often and it can get very frustrating.

They don't want to impede on your fun, but they also would like you to respect their right to fun as well. This might mean you have to meet us all half way when the game does force you into group content, and use some of the skills you don't like or find clunky.

As Nims said, it is a two way street, the vast majority of people in the middle are pretty flexible. Those who refuse to budge for the sake of the group are the ones people get upset with. That goes for both the super try-hard that isn't happy if the dungeon isn't done in 30 seconds or less, or the person who doesn't care if they are sinking the Titanic so long as they are having fun.

So for the sake of everyone's fun, could you respect the bit of fun everyone else agreed to sacrifice when they queue up using the duty finder tool by also sacrificing a little bit of your own?

If you don't think we agree to sacrifice a little bit of fun when we use the tool, its actually a big part of the price we pay to save the time of putting the group together by getting random people.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Because you have no say in it? You used a convenience tool for the system to make you a group. Your fun being ruined for my own is not going to make me lose sleep. You losing time, again same. I don't have this problem because they add a trust system I used now and can go at my own pace. But what I am stating is that bad players being bad players is ok in my book as long as they are having fun. If taking longer to do something is that much of a problem. I would make friends and do premade groups. You have that option.



This is a war that you can't win. You can't force people to play better. I have plenty friends who don't care how bad they play, and have tons of fun even being bad. I respect that.

Making content harder won't make them play better. It will just mean your time gets more wasted when they join your group.

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Can't say I disagree with this. Making MSQ stuff harder will only make me do it through PF just to avoid traps.

But one way I think that might help, is if they added rewards that everyone wants to harder content. As of now, you only get higher level gear/weapons or a mount with an abysmal drop rate. So what do bad players do? wait for it to be unsynced or when the ilvl is high that they can get away from messing up mechanics. And that's mostly done for EX trials, not the raids. For savage raids, they really don't care about being BiS and they already get similar gear for glamour from normal raids but undyeable (there was a thread long ago asking to make them dyeable). And if they really wanted that dyeable gear, they'd do it unsynced.

Eureka is the best example of how reward can get people to do something and put in the effort (I'm not arguing if Eureka is good or bad here lol). But, there are those that felt they were forced to it because they really wanted that relic, glamour, hairstyle, minion, mount etc. No one forced them to go through Eureka, but they did. Because they wanted those rewards. Now imagine if Eureka actually had challenge to it? You now have BA. Where those that really wanted Ozma mount put in the effort to get it.

So long story short, put good incentivising rewards in harder side content that would make someone actually want to learn and do it.

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Originally Posted by Nims

No, a twitch streamer (Scottzone) slightly criticized Eden (he over all enjoys FFXIV) and was sent a death threat that he actually showed on stream....then got a 30 day ban for it. However the hate over Lazypeon's video is just as valid too. There was a thread made here about it (I mean why?) and then this community went there and started harassing him.

I love Archeage, many people don't. I'd never go out of my way to attack someone that doesn't like Archeage.

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One troll giving him a death treats makes up opinion on the entire game community? lol
Try to criticize WoW classic saying its bad in the yt video, and tell us how that turned out. xD

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

One troll giving him a death treats makes up opinion on the entire game community? lol
Try to criticize WoW classic saying its bad in the yt video, and tell us how that turned out. xD

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So because WoW people do it that makes it okay? Not following the logic.

Plus I talk crap on WoW constantly, it's an awful game and I don't understand how it ever got popular. I don't receive nearly as much hate as I do when I call this game a snooze fest after 3 weeks.

Also nice way to soften it up by going "Oh one troll..." it needs to be none, it's a freaking themepark MMO.

Playerbase calls the devs transphobic because gender locked races (something common in Asian mmos)
Playerbase sends death threats to two different streamers.
Player makes a thread asking for people to get banned because they're doing constant emotes around them.
Player made a threat showing someone telling him to "kill himself" because he gave tips on how to properly tank in a nice way.
Streamer trash talks healer, then kicks him because the healer used holy and then gets support from the rest of the playerbase.

Most of this was all in like the last week or two?

GCBTW

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Could you laugh it off thousands of times though?

While the above situation would be a rarity for you, and easy to laugh off a few times,
the equivalent of it for better players happens much more often and it can get very frustrating.

They don't want to impede on your fun, but they also would like you to respect their right to fun as well. This might mean you have to meet us all half way when the game does force you into group content, and use some of the skills you don't like or find clunky.

As Nims said, it is a two way street, the vast majority of people in the middle are pretty flexible. Those who refuse to budge for the sake of the group are the ones people get upset with. That goes for both the super try-hard that isn't happy if the dungeon isn't done in 30 seconds or less, or the person who doesn't care if they are sinking the Titanic so long as they are having fun.

So for the sake of everyone's fun, could you respect the bit of fun everyone else agreed to sacrifice when they queue up using the duty finder tool by also sacrificing a little bit of your own?

If you don't think we agree to sacrifice a little bit of fun when we use the tool, its actually a big part of the price we pay to save the time of putting the group together by getting random people.

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See that is a tough thing to ask here is why.

I mean that sounds fair, but truth be told it is just not how some players think or want to play.


If you are asking me, I would not be in your groups at all. Myself, I know my limits and just don't have fun doing group content. If I've soloed most of the time having fun in my own way, and being forced to group to keep going with the story. I've been playing my fun way for so long, trying to do it a way I don't enjoy would just make me a worse dps :p.


But like I said I'm a bad example. I'm very laid back and accept things how they are. I don't think your views are wrong, I just accept things how they are and how people are. I got really no right to ask players to play better.

Asking for players to play better is pointless, and it is just more stress than it is worth I feel if you care about that sort of thing.

Asking for the game to be harder, will just end up wasting your time even more. It won't force players to play better.


I just don't see the point of that.

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Originally Posted by Nims

Snip

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Your never gonna quell all Trolls or every bad egg in ANY community or Fandom. Its impossible, diversity is a thing.
The Minority of people who call the Devs Transphobic, a few who sent Death Threats, etc... represent the smallest margin of the people who play this game. And using them as examples of a Whole playerbase is unfair to the larger Majority of people who don't Condone or participate in such things.

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Originally Posted by Nims

So because WoW people do it that makes it okay? Not following the logic.

Plus I talk crap on WoW constantly, it's an awful game and I don't understand how it ever got popular. I don't receive nearly as much hate as I do when I call this game a snooze fest after 3 weeks.

Also nice way to soften it up by going "Oh one troll..." it needs to be none, it's a freaking themepark MMO.

Playerbase calls the devs transphobic because gender locked races (something common in Asian mmos)
Playerbase sends death threats to two different streamers.
Player makes a thread asking for people to get banned because they're doing constant emotes around them.
Player made a threat showing someone telling him to "kill himself" because he gave tips on how to properly tank in a nice way.
Streamer trash talks healer, then kicks him because the healer used holy and then gets support from the rest of the playerbase.

Most of this was all in like the last week or two?

GCBTW

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Did you just invent your own sampling method?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Your never gonna quell all Trolls or every bad egg in ANY community or Fandom. Its impossible

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I get that and that's not my argument. Sending death threats is a step beyond trolling imo and it's not acceptable.

A lot of people act as if this community is perfect, there's nothing wrong and is never toxic, "great community btw" when that's simply not true which is my point. I've played a lot of mmos, watched a lot of YT and streamers and ffxiv is the only playerbase that will actually attack people if you call the game bad.

Again to clarify because I know people are going to willingly play dumb. No one is saying every single person in the playerbase is doing this but to act like this playerbase isn't toxic is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Did you just invent your own sampling method?

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No...those are called examples.

Edit: To help people follow this topic cause I can see they're not going to.

Originally the "MUH COOL ANIMATIONS" Sam was trying to use how nice this community is as some type of point and that we should deal with bad people or else this won't be a nice community any more. My point is this community is just as toxic as any other, just in a different way(don't criticize the game, don't say the lore is trash, don't use parsers, etc). I then gave examples, specifically, one of death threats. Someone else chimes in as if death threats never happens and then tries to go "Oh it's just a troll". Which still goes into the "this community is just as toxic" point.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Myself, I know my limits and just don't have fun doing group content. If I've soloed most of the time having fun in my own way, and being forced to group to keep going with the story. I've been playing my fun way for so long, trying to do it a way I don't enjoy would just make me a worse dps :p.


But like I said I'm a bad example. I'm very laid back and accept things how they are. I don't think your views are wrong, I just accept things how they are and how people are. I got really no right to ask players to play better.

Asking for players to play better is pointless.

Asking for the game to be harder, will just end up wasting your time even more. It won't force players to play better.

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Thank you. Maybe one day you will find a group or game that changes your mind about group content. Maybe if you go and level up the trusts later might find out like doing the dungeons more. You at least understand and respect where the other side of this argument is coming from.

Some others don't really get both sides.

In group play, you often do have the right to ask people to get better, as it usually all boils down to the weakest link. The group can only cover for the weakest link for so long.

Also a harder game does force people to play better, but that isn't always the correct solution to get a better player base. See Super Mario Maker Levels for examples.

Based on some of the things you said though, I do think you could potentially handle the group content if you ever started to find it fun and were willing to put in a little practice to break potential bad habits from soloing as you at least respect that everyone is sacrificing some fun in group content. A truly bad player doesn't respect that, and also would out right refuse to change for any reason.

If you want every healer to dps during down time then the game needs to change to mandate that.

For example: The healing mana costs across the board are increased slightly and the single target casted DPS nukes RESTORE mana instead of costing mana = healers need to DPS during down time in order to manage their mana.

Unless the above happens, the majority of healers are just not going to DPS as nothing in the game tells you to play that way outside of the community.

There are people who like to learn, others have difficulty learning and there are more things I'm too lazy to put here. Of course so far no one is obliged to continue in a group that is failing, today I was Eden two and there were many mistakes, people started arguing against each other ... The group decided to break down and ended up there. I tried again with another group and it was alright. I think people's biggest problem is thinking that everyone is or should be like them. Following the line of thoughts of some I've read ... It would be like (Wrong on something ... Kicked.) This is bad.

I really liked the things of ffxiv just because nobody criticizes when they don't know something or forgot a mechanical x. I always found it really inviting. I only once had stress inside a dungeon, other than that I only met people who were receptive to learning. I think saying that people don't try to learn is an exaggeration.

Here's the best solution:

Remove Duty Finder.

Never again will you have to suffer grouping with someone you don't wish to.
Never again will you have to worry about healers not DPSing if you want them to.
Never again will you have to worry about DPS not AoEing when there is more than 3+ mobs.
Never again will you have to worry about people not learning mechanics.
Never again will you have to suffer the newbie that hadn't got the fight down.

You will get the perfect group, every time. Why? Because you pre selected it yourself.

Oh wait. We can already do that, by actually premaking our groups. Maybe you all ought to do that so you don't have so many of these issues. Player created problems have player created solutions. This is always true. And its true here.

I think they have shown they have no interest in making players better. Dungeons are getting easier so are trials and raids. Even the final boss of ShB was super easy thanks to all the whining from Shin. I love this game but I do wish SE would make the MQ harder to force people to learn to play the game.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I think they have shown they have no interest in making players better. Dungeons are getting easier so are trials and raids. Even the final boss of ShB was super easy thanks to all the whining from Shin. I love this game but I do wish SE would make the MQ harder to force people to learn to play the game.

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If that was all it took to get players to play better. We would have it. All that would do is waste people time more :P.

I like how easy things are, but I would like people who want tough content to get it also. Just not in the MQ.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Here's the best solution:

Remove Duty Finder.

Never again will you have to suffer grouping with someone you don't wish to.
Never again will you have to worry about healers not DPSing if you want them to.
Never again will you have to worry about DPS not AoEing when there is more than 3+ mobs.
Never again will you have to worry about people not learning mechanics.
Never again will you have to suffer the newbie that hadn't got the fight down.

You will get the perfect group, every time. Why? Because you pre selected it yourself.

Oh wait. We can already do that, by actually premaking our groups. Maybe you all ought to do that so you don't have so many of these issues. Player created problems have player created solutions. This is always true. And its true here.

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I am all for that. Let's do it.

It will almost be like before the days of these cross sever team up dungeon finders. Only, instead of having to have a webpage or participate in a non-offical forum to give the illusion of "PF", FF14 actually has PF.

You know what came with those forms of party creation (game provided PF and using websites/forums)? Player created Blacklists. We don't bother to track people on Blacklists now because it isn't worth the effort with DF and DRs. Since the game does the work and makes the parties for me, there's no reason to try to Blacklist someone who doesn't exist to me after the event is done.

But, if I have to make my own group for everything and every-time, you bet I am making a blacklist and sharing it with my FC. I wouldn't be the only person doing it. This practice was done in FFXI and WoW.

So, there's the tradeoff: remove DR and lose the privileges that DR brings (anonymity), or go just PF and lose those privileges.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

I am all for that. Let's do it.

It will almost be like before the days of these cross sever team up dungeon finders. Only, instead of having to have a webpage or participate in a non-offical forum to give the illusion of "PF", FF14 actually has PF.

You know what came with those forms of party creation (game provided PF and using websites/forums)? Player created Blacklists. We don't bother to track people on Blacklists now because it isn't worth the effort with DF and DRs. Since the game does the work and makes the parties for me, there's no reason to try to Blacklist someone who doesn't exist to me after the event is done.

But, if I have to make my own group for everything and every-time, you bet I am making a blacklist and sharing it with my FC. I wouldn't be the only person doing it. This practice was done in FFXI and WoW.

So, there's the tradeoff: remove DR and lose the privileges that DR brings (anonymity), or go just PF and lose those privileges.

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I have a few friends that would agree with you.

I just don't think its that bad in all honesty. Everyone on both sides are kinda blowing the situation out of proportions.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Here's the best solution:

Remove Duty Finder.

Never again will you have to suffer grouping with someone you don't wish to.
Never again will you have to worry about healers not DPSing if you want them to.
Never again will you have to worry about DPS not AoEing when there is more than 3+ mobs.
Never again will you have to worry about people not learning mechanics.
Never again will you have to suffer the newbie that hadn't got the fight down.

You will get the perfect group, every time. Why? Because you pre selected it yourself.

Oh wait. We can already do that, by actually premaking our groups. Maybe you all ought to do that so you don't have so many of these issues. Player created problems have player created solutions. This is always true. And its true here.

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These problems aren't specific to the DF.

Nobody says every bad player has to turn into elitists and know their rotations perfectly. It is totally fine if they screw up their rotations, its also fine if they keep dying to new mechanics. But at least they will learn how to play their job, their role respectively. Learning your rotation and seeing those numbers can feel rewarding and also prepare you for endgame content. Extreme Primals, Savage raids, Normal raids even (with current low iLVL).
Implying that they wont have fun just because they had to get better at DPS is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

I am all for that. Let's do it.

It will almost be like before the days of these cross sever team up dungeon finders. Only, instead of having to have a webpage or participate in a non-offical forum to give the illusion of "PF", FF14 actually has PF.

You know what came with those forms of party creation (game provided PF and using websites/forums)? Player created Blacklists. We don't bother to track people on Blacklists now because it isn't worth the effort with DF and DRs. Since the game does the work and makes the parties for me, there's no reason to try to Blacklist someone who doesn't exist to me after the event is done.

But, if I have to make my own group for everything and every-time, you bet I am making a blacklist and sharing it with my FC. I wouldn't be the only person doing it. This practice was done in FFXI and WoW.

So, there's the tradeoff: remove DR and lose the privileges that DR brings (anonymity), or go just PF and lose those privileges.

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Yep. Let's do it. Also make it if you're in any of the group's blacklist (or you have ANY of the group members blacklist) and try to join, it fails to join. Also, increase blacklist limit to 1'000'000'000 characters. And make it so you can broadcast a player to blacklist and get them automatically added to all your friend list's blacklists too, as well as all LS and FC members' blacklists. I'm deadly serious about that. Watch how quickly the bad players get locked out of content doing that.

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Originally Posted by Makrar

If you want every healer to dps during down time then the game needs to change to mandate that.

For example: The healing mana costs across the board are increased slightly and the single target casted DPS nukes RESTORE mana instead of costing mana = healers need to DPS during down time in order to manage their mana.

Unless the above happens, the majority of healers are just not going to DPS as nothing in the game tells you to play that way outside of the community.

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But the game is already designed with plenty of room for healers to DPS

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

These problems aren't specific to the DF.

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Yes they are.

A good group leader won't have this issue in PF. If your group stinks from PF its because the leader failed.

We gonna have a leadership tutorial now?

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Originally Posted by Krojack

To be fair, guildhests which are designed to teach people various game mechanics aren't required. I was already level 60 and wanted to unlock mentor and found out I had only completed half of the guildhests available.

They could start by making those required content as you're leveling up. They are short and quick so it shouldn't bother anyone. They should also make people buying a level 60 level boost on a job role they don't already have to 60 to go back and do all the guildhests as well. I've had those boosted tanks not turn on their tank stance or that Paladin not know about Flash (when it was in the game) to pickup groups of mobs.

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Guildhest were required for the main story Quest at one point, I believe they were removed in heavensward, maybe 3.1...




Regarding healer DPS...
The debate is not about dps, it's about being idle.

Dps only comes in to the discussion when we consider what can be done instead of being idle.

Every player should be expected to attempt to use a beneficial skill every time the gcd rolls around.

Exactly which skills are dependant on the class and encounter design from the devs.



Stop arguing for healers to not have to dps, argue for other things to do during downtime if people are so against using damage skills.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Yes they are.

A good group leader won't have this issue in PF. If your group stinks from PF its because the leader failed.

We gonna have a leadership tutorial now?

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You really think people who got fed clears don't join farm parties?
The PF is a mixed bag.

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Originally Posted by Nims

Player makes a thread asking for people to get banned because they're doing constant emotes around them.

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Talk about out of context

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I'm on board with the group that thinks parsers would in fact make the community more toxic over all. It would turn into a "must have > X dps else get kicked" or just the normal "You're bad vote kick" in dungeons.

What SE could do it add a built-in personal parser that shows just your DPS (and HPS if on a healer) then after the fight compare your numbers to others of your job with the same average ilvl gear. If you're on Monk and have average ilvl 440 and your DPS is 4,000 less that the the average 440 ilvl Monk you could see this. It would give you an idea that you're doing something wrong and should do some reading up on your class.

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im gonna keep it real with you, chief; having standards for a party, especially a party finder party, isn't toxic. if you're barely pushing 8k on a BLM in a Titania farm party i'm going to kick you, full stop. If you're pulling less damage than the tank in a dungeon as a dps you're practically afk and should either actually hit buttons, learn your rotation, or leave. Thats not toxic, thats the basics.