Blue Mage: Are you kidding me!?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

With how strict the balance is for FFXIVs raid scene, i think it was unavoidable.
Blue Mage is a horizontal progression job.
Raiding in XIV relies on a purely vertical progression.

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There was a way to do that, and it's just fresh : the base idea is Eureka.

"What the heck ??" I can hear in the background. Let me explain.

Eureka concept : A side content, in which levels are different, and with the introduction of logos actions, there are ways to do horizontal progression that are already implemented in the game. To me Eureka concept could have been used to do "lore versions" of jobs, only available in it, and not limited jobs. Of course it would need much more content than just mob/NM grinding in it, maybe add masked carnival, non instanced dungeons, tribes with quests, why not FATE à la GW2 etc...

There would have been no problem about balance : there is a classic FFXIV job version outside of it that is balanced for raid. There is a lore version of jobs available inside of it. For instance as a starter, a true SMN, a beast master, the blue mage... no need for role trinity. Like a game in the game.

I can see some of the drawbacks : you don't know how many players are gonna spend all their time in that. Plus, it is a TREMENDOUS amount of work. Like they'd need a whole team to develop several jobs, BUT job creation would be lighter cause you don't need balance on lore jobs, just being true to FF franchise identity.

It sure as hell would bring fun to all kinds of people, including end game people since they still have raid versions to play with (they'd have no complaints playing some bonus versions in another kind of content). And it would very much please solo liking people and classical FF fans, cause well it would be playable on the fly, and with the FF feel to it.

This idea is cleaving, but how much more than the concept of limited (semi ?) jobs ? That plus the DC split, they clearly are on a gamble and want to change drastically some things and are finally not afraid to do so. So, why not ?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

With how strict the balance is for FFXIVs raid scene, i think it was unavoidable.
Blue Mage is a horizontal progression job.
Raiding in XIV relies on a purely vertical progression.

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Everything is balanced in terms of potency/second.

Saying Blue Mage can't fit into this while maintaining the world progression focus and skill hunting is blatantly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Everything is balanced in terms of potency/second.

Saying Blue Mage can't fit into this while maintaining the world progression focus and skill hunting is blatantly wrong.

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So you would have every Blue Mage skill deal exactly the same amount of damage?
Or perhaps just have 6-8 core spells that youre forced to "collect" and the rest be useless fodder that just exists to be collected and switched out?
How would you do it?
Do you understand the point if horizontal progression?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So you would have every Blue Mage skill deal exactly the same amount of damage?
Or perhaps just have 6-8 core spells that youre forced to "collect" and the rest be useless fodder that just exists to be collected and switched out?
How would you do it?
Do you understand the point if horizontal progression?

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I've already listed a topic that quite clearly summarizes the design direction one would take to have the skill hunting, load out creating, expansive toolkit the Blue mage is known for while also including a specific role it fills to join randos for raids and dungeons.

I understand horizontal progression perfectly. But horizontal progression still requires an end-game, and the Masked Carnival sounds like another 2bit diversion like Deep Dungeon or Eureka.

Guild Wars 1 is the king of horizontal progression, and everything in that game was still geared around having both hard PVE end-content to participate in and altering skills so that PVP remains free form and competitive. It also is (shockingly) a 4 and 8 player game about -skill hunting through the entire world-.

Sound familiar to something FF14 might be implementing soon?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So you would have every Blue Mage skill deal exactly the same amount of damage?
Or perhaps just have 6-8 core spells that youre forced to "collect" and the rest be useless fodder that just exists to be collected and switched out?
How would you do it?
Do you understand the point if horizontal progression?

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Thy can do it just we need to wait and see January i hve a feeling this going to go my way after January but i watch all FF GAMES blue mage was on i still don't see thm op i just think its about how awesome blue mage is... also the spella / abilitys thy get look so awesome they mage Blm sad all i can see is alot of hate tht blue mage get staff tht stand out Tht's all i see as for some of blue mage spells like 1000 needles it will be useless later in the game unless its a ability spell as for level 5 death they can add a chance to like 15% chance to instant kill target but for bosses there's a immortality to it same for other spells just go watch all of there games blue mage was on u will understand Tht's why we call it bs when you saying you Can't balance blue mage spells etc

If they were to balance it for endgame content. Many iconic BLU skills would be nerfed or nonexistent. Mighty guard would be reduced to a 10% mitigation, Bad breath wouldnt do anything to enemies, and the primal skills would be nerfed.

Certain BLU spells would be useless if tuned to dungeon and current endgame content , spells like Death, 1000 needles. Even if death was just a 15% chance to kill any target it could be exploitable.

Look at ffxi blue mage, for years it has been completely unbalanced and even now in its current state after all the nerfs it still is unbalanced.

I just think Yoshi is looking at how FFXI did BLU and all the years of balancing problems it had and decided he wasnt going to put his team through that.

From a developers standpoint I dont see how you can balance the job without completely gutting iconic BLU abilities.

They could have added in BLU however I think they were afraid of putting so many restrictions on the job to make it fit.

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Originally Posted by Derio

If they were to balance it for endgame content. Many iconic BLU skills would be nerfed or nonexistent. Mighty guard would be reduced to a 10% mitigation, Bad breath wouldnt do anything to enemies, and the primal skills would be nerfed.

Certain BLU spells would be useless if tuned to dungeon and current endgame content , spells like Death, 1000 needles. Even if death was just a 15% chance to kill any target it could be exploitable.

Look at ffxi blue mage, for years it has been completely unbalanced and even now in its current state after all the nerfs it still is unbalanced.

I just think Yoshi is looking at how FFXI did BLU and all the years of balancing problems it had and decided he wasnt going to put his team through that.

From a developers standpoint I dont see how you can balance the job without completely gutting iconic BLU abilities.

They could have added in BLU however I think they were afraid of putting so many restrictions on the job to make it fit.

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They could've re-imagined the job like all the other ones we have in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

They could've re-imagined the job like all the other ones we have in the game.

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Then It would not Be Blue-Mage. It'll be any other DPS Job and sadly that is 5 DPS Jobs if not 15 Jobs (17 come ShadowBringers) over done. Blue-Mage is the only Job so far that is completely New.

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Originally Posted by Huntrss

Then It would not Be Blue-Mage. It'll be any other DPS Job and sadly that is 5 DPS Jobs if not 15 Jobs (17 come ShadowBringers) over done. Blue-Mage is the only Job so far that is completely New.

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Many blue spells have multiple iterations throughout the past FF games so why can't FFXIV have it's own version of the spells that work a bit differently?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Many blue spells have multiple iterations throughout the past FF games so why can't FFXIV have it's own version of the spells that work a bit differently?

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This it been said many, many times in this post and you listen to each group of players the ones that want Blue Mage to be Blue Mage and the players that want to Main the Job and the players that want to either Raid or PVP as a Blue mage.
But no one as said how do we remain True to Blue Mage and do this because many people want diffrent things from the Job and No one can agree the best way to Put Blue Mage in the game.
Even the Developers possible spent hours on how to bring it to this game and they decided a Limit Job System would work best. It'll give None Raiders and PVPers something to Do. plus everyone going why Blue Mage when there's other Jobs to fit this Roll. In the End No One can Agree and a Few are saying Don't put Blue Mage in this Game. This Whole Blue Mage as Been Decided on and right now it's about finish given the fact they should have it the way they want it. So what's left since we can't do anything. Play it, see how it is and give Feedback on it this would be more easier if there was a Beta Server for Final Fantasy 14 but there isn't one. So we wait and when it goes Live play it.

Yes I Agree they could of done it like every other Job but why make it the same old same old?
1, Why do we need to get all our Spells from Mobs?
2, Why Can't we PVP or Raid what makes it Limited?
3, Are we suppost to believe Blue mage one Shots everything and nothing can stop it and what fun is that?

that is the beginning of unanswered Questions that I have sorry never played the Job.

but do I agree that this is a start and how to fix it once we get pass all the stuff for Blue mage .. go Back to our other Jobs and forget about it.

All We can ever Agree on right now is how they are Putting Blue mage in and that we all Don't like it already. worst part even Gunblade and Whatever other Jobs they put in are going back to Normal. meanwhile Blue mage sits there to Collect Dust.

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Originally Posted by Huntrss

Then It would not Be Blue-Mage. It'll be any other DPS Job and sadly that is 5 DPS Jobs if not 15 Jobs (17 come ShadowBringers) over done. Blue-Mage is the only Job so far that is completely New.

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There isn't anything wrong with adding more DPS
as long as Tanks and healers get some new toys too.

It'll probably sit right under BLM,SMN and RDM anyway With its red icon,Blue job stone and it wears the int gear
i don't know why people feel the need to just simplify it
"its DPS like others"
they clearly all play pretty differently yes the goals the same "do damage" but that's every class.

it could have been a normal DPS and still be Different.

If people who say "it would have just been BLM or RDM" truly think that all jobs are "gutted and nothing like their original counterparts" then...why do you play any of them? why do you play this game if you don't enjoy rotation based combat with jobs tuned for raiding?

Why don't you just play literally any other final fantasy with a job system, or the bravely series?

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Originally Posted by Duskane

There isn't anything wrong with adding more DPS
as long as Tanks and healers get some new toys too.

It'll probably sit right under BLM,SMN and RDM anyway With its red icon,Blue job stone and it wears the int gear
i don't know why people feel the need to just simplify it
"its DPS like others"
they clearly all play pretty differently yes the goals the same "do damage" but that's every class.

it could have been a normal DPS and still be Different.

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here the thing it wasn't our call and SE decided for us all How Blue-Mage would be added.

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Originally Posted by Huntrss

here the thing it wasn't our call and SE decided for us all How Blue-Mage would be added.

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Same as they did with SMN and 3.0 BRD and MCH. Player complained and they made changes.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Same as they did with SMN and 3.0 BRD and MCH. Player complained and they made changes.

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They were in FF14 as a Normal Job and when you go on stage at a big Event (Fanfest) and Tell the world about A Limited Job you shoot for that not Change a Limited Job into a Normal Job. So your Idea they listen and change it will not happen that much off course you got to start with that Idea and adjust until it fits. Now we have other people coming and going Don't change a Thing. See that my main Point we can not agree. So whatever happens Someone will Scream Why?

Saying that every job has to be balanced for raiding is a bit short sighted. Raiding is not all there is to FFXIV, infact its entirely skip-able.
Neither does SE care about the "balance" of jobs. Look at MCH/DRK/SAM/WHM right now. Then lets look at the previous expansion where PLD wasn't "balanced" for its entire duration.

This fresh take on a class where its not designed for raiding but rather solo play is rather interesting.
I hope they add more of these classes in the future and don't just abandon the idea due to a vocal minority who only care about raids and logs.

Coming back to the game after 4 years due to the leaks for Blu, I'm quite excited for the job. Even though it's a limited job, I'm hopeful that it'll be adjusted in the future to be allowed certain end game content or duties via certain implementations to ensure a Blu with no spells does not slow anyone down.

I saw that we will be getting 49 spells and role actions. I'm unaware though if there will be actions to use outside of the gcd (not role actions). Has there been any information passed regarding this?

I mean the balance argument isn't even an argument at all. I hate to break it to people but it really isn't. Let's go role by role shall we?

Tanks, not balanced effectively and has not been effectively balanced all expansion.

Healer, laughably unbalanced and we aren't even sure if they have any clue on what to do to fix it.

Melee DPS, this is probably the closest to actual balance but still as stated before.. go talk to a SAM.

Skipping Ranged Physical for a moment.. So on with casters, this is a role that feels pretty well balanced but in reality it's not all that balanced, it's on very thin ice so dropping another caster into the mix will shatter the actual delicate balance they have now and you'll relegate all these caster mains into the pigeon hole that.. MCH have suffered in this entire expansion!

Which brings us back around to Physical Ranged DPS!! YAY!!! To even suggest that this role is anywhere near balanced is a laughable joke. Go look at the MCH threads on these forums. Go ahead. I'll wait.. It's fine. Go look. Better yet.. Go talk to a machinist and tell them they're perfectly balanced with BRD. I dare you. So end of an expansion, while preparing for a massive patch, a massive expansion, in the beginning of the press tour for said expansion, with HUGE changes to the game systems in the form of the world visit, trust, and new game + systems.. you want them to suddenly get together.. perfect all the roles job balances that they have not been able to do in all of ARR, HW, or SB, and won't be able to do in SB2, so we can effectively drop BLU in and not destroy the pseudo balance we have now.. Good luck with that. Tell me how it goes for you.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

I mean the balance argument isn't even an argument at all. I hate to break it to people but it really isn't. Let's go role by role shall we?

Tanks, not balanced effectively and has not been effectively balanced all expansion.

Healer, laughably unbalanced and we aren't even sure if they have any clue on what to do to fix it.

Melee DPS, this is probably the closest to actual balance but still as stated before.. go talk to a SAM.

Skipping Ranged Physical for a moment.. So on with casters, this is a role that feels pretty well balanced but in reality it's not all that balanced, it's on very thin ice so dropping another caster into the mix will shatter the actual delicate balance they have now and you'll relegate all these caster mains into the pigeon hole that.. MCH have suffered in this entire expansion!

Which brings us back around to Physical Ranged DPS!! YAY!!! To even suggest that this role is anywhere near balanced is a laughable joke. Go look at the MCH threads on these forums. Go ahead. I'll wait.. It's fine. Go look. Better yet.. Go talk to a machinist and tell them they're perfectly balanced with BRD. I dare you. So end of an expansion, while preparing for a massive patch, a massive expansion, in the beginning of the press tour for said expansion, with HUGE changes to the game systems in the form of the world visit, trust, and new game + systems.. you want them to suddenly get together.. perfect all the roles job balances that they have not been able to do in all of ARR, HW, or SB, and won't be able to do in SB2, so we can effectively drop BLU in and not destroy the pseudo balance we have now.. Good luck with that. Tell me how it goes for you.

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There is no pseudo balance. At the end of the day every job is playable in all content and can be used to CLEAR all content, are some jobs blatantly better than others at higher speed running tiers? yes. Does this matter at all outside of those higher tiers? absolutely not.

So please don't try and use the "muh meta" excuse for something like that, the reason why jobs like MCH, DRK and WHM get flak is not because of their lack of use in "the meta" it's because they play awfully, absolutely awfully and a lot of their core mechanics are unwieldy, this goes doubly so when doing HW/ARR content where most of their previous skills have been gutted(Lul DRK)

So yes, yes we should expect them to try to balance BLU, even if they fail at it, they should TRY to implement it into the game just like they should TRY and fix DRK MCH and WHM. God forbid we have some sort of variety before SB2 drops that isn't another atma/diadem/fate farm.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

There is no pseudo balance. At the end of the day every job is playable in all content and can be used to CLEAR all content, are some jobs blatantly better than others at higher speed running tiers? yes. Does this matter at all outside of those higher tiers? absolutely not.

So please don't try and use the "muh meta" excuse for something like that, the reason why jobs like MCH, DRK and WHM get flak is not because of their lack of use in "the meta" it's because they play awfully, absolutely awfully and a lot of their core mechanics are unwieldy, this goes doubly so when doing HW/ARR content where most of their previous skills have been gutted(Lul DRK)

So yes, yes we should expect them to try to balance BLU, even if they fail at it, they should TRY to implement it into the game just like they should TRY and fix DRK MCH and WHM. God forbid we have some sort of variety before SB2 drops that isn't another atma/diadem/fate farm.

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They can't even get machinist to play right. They have a job system in whm that is absolutely pointless, and a number of other JOB balancing issues and QoL changes. It has nothing to do with meta. It has everything to do with the fact that they have enough on their plate and in working to give us more than what we've ever had you still demand more. "GIMME MORE!! MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE!!!"

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

They can't even get machinist to play right. They have a job system in whm that is absolutely pointless, and a number of other JOB balancing issues and QoL changes. It has nothing to do with meta. It has everything to do with the fact that they have enough on their plate and in working to give us more than what we've ever had you still demand more. "GIMME MORE!! MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE!!!"

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I don't overly find having to go kill monsters I've already killed to unlock a skill I probably won't use as more than I've ever had.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I don't overly find having to go kill monsters I've already killed to unlock a skill I probably won't use as more than I've ever had.

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Which affects you, and you alone. No one else. Sure others may feel the same way as you do but it doesn't change facts. We're getting what we're getting. You do with it what you want to do with it.

i dont even know what people problems is tbh..... i think this was the best way to implement blue mage into ffxiv

there are 3 jobs in final fantasy that are "Collection" jobs

Blue Mage = Collect skills
Beast Master = Collect Beasts
Puppeteer = Collect puppet parts

this solo content is the best way to add these jobs to FFXIV without running into consent "design" problems within the group content..... these 3 jobs would be a pain to balance due to how they play.... so instead you can be OP as hell in solo content and have fun with these jobs

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

i dont even know what people problems is tbh..... i think this was the best way to implement blue mage into ffxiv

there are 3 jobs in final fantasy that are "Collection" jobs

Blue Mage = Collect skills
Beast Master = Collect Beasts
Puppeteer = Collect puppet parts

this solo content is the best way to add these jobs to FFXIV without running into consent "design" problems within the group content..... these 3 jobs would be a pain to balance due to how they play.... so instead you can be OP as hell in solo content and have fun with these jobs

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I agree except the last part but issues with FF14 Duty Finder has always been there from the FF14 2.0 (ARR). It's the fact that Blue Mage bring it more to life. I remember having to wait 30 mins or longer as DPS in ARR,HW,SB and coming soon SB2. Duty finder made it very Easy for Tanks and Healers that they'll defend it without looking at the fact Deep Dungeon is the only safe place to level DPS that or Do Fates left and right or get a group form before going in. the issue with Blue Mages is that Casual players are going this is for me to enjoy and I'll defend it before playing it .. after the fact Casual get to level 10 with only 1 spell if they are lucky instead of going Raiders go do Ultima Raiding. I have my own to do stupid Mob do your spell so I can learn it been on same mob for an hour. try not to kill the mob before the mob has a chance to do it's spell.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

So please don't try and use the "muh meta" excuse for something like that, the reason why jobs like MCH, DRK and WHM get flak is not because of their lack of use in "the meta" it's because they play awfully, absolutely awfully and a lot of their core mechanics are unwieldy, this goes doubly so when doing HW/ARR content where most of their previous skills have been gutted(Lul DRK)

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Tell this to the Monks and Samurai who can't seem to find many groups willing to take them over Dragoon and Ninja.

As for playstyle. DRK and WHM may be a bit clunky, but they play well enough. DRK is actually the strongest tank for direct mitigation in any magic heavy fight. What keeps them behind is how woefully inferior their kits are to their respective counterparts. WHM does precisely zero things better than Astro. In fact, the only "unique" ability it has over AST is Divine Benison. Yay.

Viability and balance are not the same thing. All jobs are viable, but they haven't been balanced for most of the expansion. It took the devs over a year to address any concerns regarding DRK, RDM or SAM. And even MNK loitered around for a while. All the changes they made were mentioned as early as pre-SB's launch. Balance has been a noticeable issue all expansion—one they need to address come Shadowbringers. While yes, there will always be a meta. A handful of jobs simply do almost everything better than their counterparts. That's a problem.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Tell this to the Monks and Samurai who can't seem to find many groups willing to take them over Dragoon and Ninja.

As for playstyle. DRK and WHM may be a bit clunky, but they play well enough. DRK is actually the strongest tank for direct mitigation in any magic heavy fight. What keeps them behind is how woefully inferior their kits are to their respective counterparts. WHM does precisely zero things better than Astro. In fact, the only "unique" ability it has over AST is Divine Benison. Yay.

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Oh come on now, are they able to do content? yes, can you clear story quest? yes, can you clear roulette? yes. Can you go on hunts and level sync? yes. despite whatever flaws they may have in raids, they are balanced and able to do, current content, meta or not. I play SAM and have very little problem getting into groups and doing contents, but outside of that I can actually use the job on other things, like roulettes, pvp deep dungeon, I have full access to all content in the game.

BLU does not, you're misunderstanding something being BALANCED for raid and something NOT HAVING ACCESS TO a majority of content that a real job should and ought to be able to. This isn't complaining, this is fact BLU is not a full job on release.

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They can't even get machinist to play right. They have a job system in whm that is absolutely pointless, and a number of other JOB balancing issues and QoL changes. It has nothing to do with meta. It has everything to do with the fact that they have enough on their plate and in working to give us more than what we've ever had you still demand more. "GIMME MORE!! MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE!!!"

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So what you're saying is that we should just expect nothing? we should not ask for them to balance machinist, we should just be lucky that it's in the game, the same with white mage and Dark arts Knight? I don't think I'm asking much by saying that...yes, we should be given a full new job, ON TOP of them fixing their mistakes with regular job balance.

I am not asking for more, I am asking for "A job that can play all content irregardless of raid viability" you know, something that should, I don't know be a common feature of all jobs added to the game? I don't care about raids and I don't care about raid balance(it would be nice of course) I am saying, that at a bare minimum level what constitutes a job should not be changed because the dev team decided "Well we can't make this work."

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Which affects you, and you alone. No one else. Sure others may feel the same way as you do but it doesn't change facts. We're getting what we're getting. You do with it what you want to do with it.

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It also affects me, and the multitude of other people that do not want to be locked into ARR fate's and dungeon on a job that we love. Would I be fine with it? yes, because I love BLU, would I like it? absolutely not and I feel that it should be changed.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Oh come on now, are they able to do content? yes, can you clear story quest? yes, can you clear roulette? yes. Can you go on hunts and level sync? yes. despite whatever flaws they may have in raids, they are balanced and able to do, current content, meta or not. I play SAM and have very little problem getting into groups and doing contents, but outside of that I can actually use the job on other things, like roulettes, pvp deep dungeon, I have full access to all content in the game.

BLU does not, you're misunderstanding something being BALANCED for raid and something NOT HAVING ACCESS TO a majority of content that a real job should and ought to be able to. This isn't complaining, this is fact BLU is not a full job on release.



So what you're saying is that we should just expect nothing? we should not ask for them to balance machinist, we should just be lucky that it's in the game, the same with white mage and Dark arts Knight? I don't think I'm asking much by saying that...yes, we should be given a full new job, ON TOP of them fixing their mistakes with regular job balance.

I am not asking for more, I am asking for "A job that can play all content irregardless of raid viability" you know, something that should, I don't know be a common feature of all jobs added to the game? I don't care about raids and I don't care about raid balance(it would be nice of course) I am saying, that at a bare minimum level what constitutes a job should not be changed because the dev team decided "Well we can't make this work."



It also affects me, and the multitude of other people that do not want to be locked into ARR fate's and dungeon on a job that we love. Would I be fine with it? yes, because I love BLU, would I like it? absolutely not and I feel that it should be changed.

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I like that your first 2 replies to quotes counter each other, initially you say that all combat classes are viable regardless of how well they are received in the meta. Then you proceed to go on about how we should complain that certain classes aren't viable.

BLU is something different, we don't know what the future will bring for it. For SB however the limit will be 50. And that is fine, considering we don't know yet what effect it will have on endgame. With patch 4.55 they may up the level to 60. With patch 5.0 when they overhaul the entire game for Shadowbringer BLU may become viable for max level.

Is it really that difficult to acknowledge that BLU may bring along difficulties for the current game and that its not worth the effort to redo everything JUST so you can play it in the last set of MSQ/endgame raids(that haven't been designed with BLU in mind)/roulettes(where drama will surely ensue when a BLU doesn't get his way to get a specific mob).

Just wait, see how BLU works, you are not denied from PF and the level will go up in the near future. See how it works till 50 before you already start flipping tables on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

I like that your first 2 replies to quotes counter each other, initially you say that all combat classes are viable regardless of how well they are received in the meta. Then you proceed to go on about how we should complain that certain classes aren't viable.

BLU is something different, we don't know what the future will bring for it. For SB however the limit will be 50. And that is fine, considering we don't know yet what effect it will have on endgame.

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Balance is relative.

All jobs are balanced when compared to current content that matters.

All jobs are not balanced when compared to their direct contemporaries.

This creates the scenario where there is no reason to take one Job, because the other option is plain superior in every respect. This is not a contradictory statement, this is a matter of scope.

Blue was stated to not have access to the standard end game content (RE: Raids). This isn't about balance against content or balance against jobs. Blue from conception will not be allowed in there. That is what was said.

That is the entire crux of why this thread exists. In the content that some people find the most fun, Blue isn't allowed in. At all. No other Job has been told no at the point of entry.

That this doesn't bother more of you is near incomprehensible.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Just wait, see how BLU works, you are not denied from PF and the level will go up in the near future. See how it works till 50 before you already start flipping tables on the forums.

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The person above pretty much stated what I was trying to get across perfectly, what I am saying is that every job at release was able to do all content equally, regardless of raid viability, how well they play, or what composition they play into. That is what I was saying, I can play all of ARR/HW/SB with a Dark Knight or a Samurai or a Machinist and I can clear all content with them.

I'm not asking them to fix it right before it launches, I know that isn't feasible, I am STATING that we SHOULD expect the developer's of this game to at least try to balance jobs. A lot of the arguments in this thread were that BLU couldn't be done and it was selfish and egotistical to expect the developers to balance it on top of balancing other jobs.

I think that is the wrong mindset to have, we should not just be handed something(Again I am not saying we were handed BLU it's not even out yet) ANYTHING and just say "okay this is fine" it's the same reason why Diadem was so poorly received, as was Eureka, and it's why they were in some ways, maybe not successfully, changed.

I'm fine with them messing up or making mistakes or abandoning content, what I am not fine with is people seeming to say "Well what do you expect them to do?" that kind of attitude is bad, I'm fine with people saying why they might like BLU as BOTH sides of feedback are important. I am not fine with people essentially saying "Don't expect anything but bare minimum from the devs" that is a bad thought process.

Edit: To add to that point about me being fine with BLU, I love the job, with Khimari being my favorite BLU, I'll play it on release even if I don't like the concept right now because I love BLU. I have a problem with the fact that when next content/story quest comes around I won't be able to say "I'll hop on BLU and try that" I'll be thinking "Have they updated it's level yet?" which really saddens me. There's an obvious dissonance they've put between BLU and current content that I do not think is healthy.

BLU isn't a traditional Job, it is a new design.

Neither did they flat out state you won't be able to raid with them, you'll be able to raid level 50 content without any issue at release. I understand the skepticism, however its also incorrect to say you will "never" be able to raid endgame with them. For now it is an issue, but come 5.0 it may be possible. This is due to various reasons, some they stated themselves in the live letter at fanfest. At a later point they will raise the level cap, while we can make assumptions as to why,its irrelevant for now. For the sake of not breaking the current endgame its understandable they won't bring out a new job with access to it. Remember rogue and its balancing issue at the start.

So no, you wont get a BLU to cheese mechanics in Uwu and Ucob right now. But come 5.0 when the game gets an update it could be possible. They would raise the level cap. They never exclude you from PF. You just can't run roulettes and deep dungeons.

Secondly Eureka criticism is pretty unfair as the argument is more often then not "its to grindy". And I agree its boring to just afk in the fate train or wait in the base. However if you actually play the content and interact with new people and not just stick to your social circle the content is actually pretty enjoyable. And even if its not for you, thats fine, there are other people who enjoy the content the way it is. And you'll have to learn to accept that not all content is designed with everyone in mind. Only a minority of the player base is raiding, SE can't always cater to that part. They have received fights like Ucob and Uwu at the cost of 3 dungeons. Personally I'm not fond of light party content but saying that the raiding player base is forgotten this expansion because BLU can't join the raiding scene immediately is an absurd statement.

I understand the sentiment that you wish to "main" the content you enjoy with your favorite class however everyone has a different favorite class. Its interesting that they design a new combat class that doesn't exactly fit into the raiding format immediately. I'd like to see where this goes and if its a success I hope they bring out more classes like BLU.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

A lot of the arguments in this thread were that BLU couldn't be done and it was selfish and egotistical to expect the developers to balance it on top of balancing other jobs.

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I wouldn't say selfish or egotistical, I'd say 'unrealistic'.

There's a clear divide between two contradictory ways to implement Blue Mage, and for all the nay-sayers, they are contradictory.
You cannot balance a purely horizontal progression system into FFXIV's incredibly strict vertical raid ladder, using the existing role system. "But game x has a horizontal progression system!" Yes, but that isn't built around a role trinity with as strict balance as FFXIV, this game is probably the most balanced MMO out there, and people here riot if their potency is nerfed by 10 points so...
Add in the 'gimmicks' that Blue Mage is known for, like the level spells, and balance becomes a pipe-dream.

So the two options were always a Limited Job, or gutting the identity of Blue Mage like all the other classes.
The other classes get that treatment, so why not Blue Mage?
Well they could have, however Blue Mage is somewhat different in this case. There might be other jobs that have had their identity's altered a bit, but It's a matter of scale, and Blue Mage would require enough of a change that I can see why they had a more difficult choice to make.

Red Mage has always been known for using both black and white magic. It may not have the same 'role' as it did in previous iterations, but it still has its signature black and white magic.
Summoner might have been more of a nuker than a pet job with DoTs, but it still retains its identity of summoning... summons, and it still has a nuking mechanic with Bahamut.

Blue Mage has always been the skill collector job. It has always been its own minigame, whether it's getting hit, seeing the skills, eating the enemies or finding key items, you always have the job of seeking these skills our yourself as a sidequest. That's always been the signature of the role, and its appeal. People enjoy hunting down the skills, that's the point of it. Very rarely do those skills actually come in handy for endgame, and besides a few niche examples Blue Mages usually aren't useful for actually beating their respective games.

Like I said, they could have ignored this and tried to fit it into the role system, but they chose not to, either way some people would be pissed off.
Those who enjoyed the collecting aspect of old Blue Mages would feel like it's a weak imitation, and I can't help but feel that those who wanted it shoehorned into the role system just wanted to play a Blue Mage in name alone. Summoner seems to be the closest facsimile, it uses 'enemy skills' in the form of primals, and has some 'gimmicky' spells in the form of DoTs and debuffs, plus physick and resurrect.

They also could have done both, created some sort of system to separate the two aspects, have an entirely different set of skills that bare no resemblance to the ones you go out and collect, then unlocks once you've collected all skills up to lv 50 or something.
This is where it gets unrealistic, that would require them to balance two entirely different jobs, while only getting the 'pay off' of one.
Could they do this in the future? Maybe, but there's no way they'd do it half-way through an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

BLU isn't a traditional Job, it is a new design.

Secondly Eureka criticism is pretty unfair as the argument is more often then not "its to grindy". And I agree its boring to just afk in the fate train or wait in the base. However if you actually play the content and interact with new people and not just stick to your social circle the content is actually pretty enjoyable. And even if its not for you, thats fine, there are other people who enjoy the content the way it is. And you'll have to learn to accept that not all content is designed with everyone in mind. Only a minority of the player base is raiding, SE can't always cater to that part. They have received fights like Ucob and Uwu at the cost of 3 dungeons. Personally I'm not fond of light party content but saying that the raiding player base is forgotten this expansion because BLU can't join the raiding scene immediately is an absurd statement.

I understand the sentiment that you wish to "main" the content you enjoy with your favorite class however everyone has a different favorite class. Its interesting that they design a new combat class that doesn't exactly fit into the raiding format immediately. I'd like to see where this goes and if its a success I hope they bring out more classes like BLU.

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well spoken, absolutly +1

In all honesty I don't know what the future holds for BLU. Will it raid one day ? Will it never ? I don't know.

What I DO know is it can't for the moment, so I won't spend time on it, also for the moment. If things change, I'll gladly try it out, and if things don't, well it will surely have an appeal for many other players.

It's not like it's the only new class related thing that will be added for the next 2&1/2 years. 2 non limited jobs are coming, new job actions for the ones already here...
So in the end, no harm is done once you go past initial disappointment that it's not a classical job, and the fuss could calm down a bit.

You say that, yet when you all hit that Shadowbringers content-cap and have nothing left to do during downtime, you know you're going to try BLU - because why wouldn't you, other than some self-made restrictions bourne out of hate for the handling of it? I'm glad to be one of the few who have no experience with BLU in previous games and can safely treat this like a different content type rather than 'but but but, muh normal job'!

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I wouldn't because what reason would I have to?

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Nobody said you had to - but you also can't say there is a reason not to other than the already mentioned 'self-made restrictions' that everyone is throwing up out of hate for BLU design. Nobody has to do the fashion report, or do command missions, or visit the saucer - I have no use for MP, but hey, I'll go buy tickets because why not? Plenty of downtime, especially when you've hit the point of an expansion where you're back to the weekly reset grind and little else. Same applies to BLU. You may hate that it's not a standard job, but there's no reason to avoid it entirely other than you just hate the concept - when checking it out can be easily done during downtime to see for yourself.

Lol @UwU and UCoB costing 3 dungeons. No, Eureka cost you three dungeons. At most UwU and UCoB would have cost one dungeon collectively and even then, do you *want* a dungeon designed by that sadistic team that are at their best making...


Actually yeah. Screw UwU and UCoB let's get ultimate level dungeons.

Blue Mage was never a job that I cared too much, so I don't have a strong opinion eitherway, but I more leaning towards the side of SE making it a regular job.

As for the argument of Blue Mage being more accurate to its identity as a limited job, I can agree, but I still think it is preferable to make it a normal job than to keep its identity at the cost of keeping it out of certain content.

I think unlocking the classic Blue Mage spells via Job Quests or make it so that certain Blue Mage spells can't be used in DF would've been an easier solution. I think the Level spells could be dificult to implement the way they are in other FFs, but stuff like Aqua Breath, Goblin Punch, Matra Magic, Mighty Guard, White Wind, Nova, etc would be simple skills. Bad Breath could be some debuff or DoT instead of actually paralysing, stuning, poisoning and all that. LV5 Death and LV4 Holy and all that could be part of the job mechanic, as in we would raise some Blue Magic meter (or something more creative) and increase a level that would unlock different commands like LV3 Def-less, LV4 Holy and LV5 Death.

Yes, this is different, and I know the last part about the levels has nothing to do with how these spells work in other games, but personally I think this would be faithful enough to Blue Mage, at least as much as other jobs are faithful to their original versions.

I think the job might still be reworked eventually into a normal job if enough people keep demanding. Maybe this way some balance might be reached someday.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

You say that, yet when you all hit that Shadowbringers content-cap and have nothing left to do during downtime, you know you're going to try BLU - because why wouldn't you, other than some self-made restrictions bourne out of hate for the handling of it? I'm glad to be one of the few who have no experience with BLU in previous games and can safely treat this like a different content type rather than 'but but but, muh normal job'!

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Oh I didn't express myself quite well. I did not say I will never touch it. I said in its current state I'm not interested, but I might be in the future, depending of course on what awaits this job. As someone said repeatedly, wait & see, and I'm gonna do that, I'll just wait longer than january and see what comes out of it after 5.0 hits

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

I think the job might still be reworked eventually into a normal job if enough people keep demanding. Maybe this way some balance might be reached someday.

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While you have made a well written post. I highly doubt a normal job comes out of this. Everyone points to one thing lately that I've noticed. "We want it to be able to do all content." Like this is the only job in the game that can not do all the content. We have two sets of jobs that actually can not do all the content and they aren't "fake jobs" Disciples of Hand and Land jobs. Can't take a BSM to raid, or an ALC, or a FSH, or even a BOT. Can't run through the MSQ, or dungeons, or trials, or any of the current in fashion content for whatever patch we're in.

Could they have made a raid balanced job out of blue mage? Sure, I even half expected them to, but they chose not to. They chose a different path. They were aware from the moment they made this decision it would be divisive to say the least, but this is still where they chose to go. So there's a plan in place. If you have already prejudged it and said no I'll never play this and rabble rabble rabble, That's fine. It's apparently not content that is intended for you. It's intended for those people who have asked for more open world interaction (which this is a step in the right direction), more solo playability so people aren't automatically forced into having to be in a group to do everything (yes, it's an mmo but it doesn't mean that people want to spend all day every day being forced into groups with strangers just to do things. Sometimes it's nice to go feel productive in the world on your own.) new and innovative risk taking ideas on various forms of content, for completionists who wanted more things to collect and show off, it's meant for those people. People who never let their sub lapse but don't raid, don't stress about current tome cap, and are looking for new ways to interact with the world that isn't just grind dungeons, or throw yourself at the same raid bosses over and over and over again. Sure, as far as we know they may never make it to be able to do MSQ, but for a lot of these people I imagine. That's okay. So for those of you looking forward to BLU, enjoy the content they tried to make. For those who have determined to hate it and reject this implementation, there's still at least two more fully balanced jobs coming for you in 5.0 Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Just wait, see how BLU works, you are not denied from PF and the level will go up in the near future. See how it works till 50 before you already start flipping tables on the forums.

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This is wishful thinking at best. Everything they have revealed thus far implies the precise opposite; they have no intention of making Blue Mage a fully fledged jobs but simply solo content. Why should people wait to voice their complaints if they aren't dislike the concept? Most players upset want to play Blue Mage when 5.0 hits, not somewhere down the line even if they do eventually re-balance. They don't need to wait and see. What they have seen already isn't to their liking. Hence the vocal backlash.