Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

From the Discord Live Translation:

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Yoshida is aware of all the suggestions people do to reform drk but he says he can't do them because it'd be a redesign, need like 6 months to do it

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Patch 4.2 released at the end of January, 4.3 is supposed to come out towards the end of May. That's 5 months they could have used. 4.25 released in mid March, about a month and a half after initial 4.2 release, I would assume the same would be for 4.35, so early/mid July. That's 6 months. Now not everyone wants a full complete rework of DRK, just changes to a few core skills, if they even just delayed the changes to 4.35, that's 6 months right there.

If they aren't willing to give drk more mitigation or utility it should do more damage than war, but it will never happen because war would cry and unlike drk they actually listen to them.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

If they aren't willing to give drk more mitigation or utility it should do more damage than war, but it will never happen because war would cry and unlike drk they actually listen to them.

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This. Warrior has more utility, both raid wide and personal, than DRK.
It should be obvious that DRK deal more damaga than WAR, but war is their baby. They "reworked" the job like patch into SB, but DRK needs until 5.0? The hell?

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

From the Discord Live Translation:


Patch 4.2 released at the end of January, 4.3 is supposed to come out towards the end of May. That's 5 months they could have used. 4.25 released in mid March, about a month and a half after initial 4.2 release, I would assume the same would be for 4.35, so early/mid July. That's 6 months. Now not everyone wants a full complete rework of DRK, just changes to a few core skills, if they even just delayed the changes to 4.35, that's 6 months right there.

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Their development philosophy is abysmal, primarily because they refuse to make proactive changes. Instead of focusing on feedback from the get go, they seem to have stubbornly kept to their design until it was clear the community flat out rejected it in the same vein they did Heavensward Paladin. The fact it may take an additional six months to fix a job that has struggled for almost a year now is... absurd.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

That's not a niche though, that's the opposite of a niche. That middle of the road idea is going to help nothing; people will still take PLD/WAR because both excel in their areas whereas DRK will only ever be middling in them.

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https://i.imgur.com/wJ5fcq8.png

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This. Warrior has more utility, both raid wide and personal, than DRK.
It should be obvious that DRK deal more damaga than WAR, but war is their baby. They "reworked" the job like patch into SB, but DRK needs until 5.0? The hell?

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I don't think Warrior should have a party/raid shield in general. It goes against it's class-fantasy in my eyes. I'd be fine with T. Swift it was a personal shield/damage reduction only. SCH getting buffed again, WAR (to me) is the best of the three tanks. Feeling like HW.

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Originally Posted by Otorinth

https://i.imgur.com/wJ5fcq8.png

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http://www.humormeetscomics.com/wp-c...12/sarcasm.png

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

Patch 4.2 released at the end of January, 4.3 is supposed to come out towards the end of May. That's 5 months they could have used. 4.25 released in mid March, about a month and a half after initial 4.2 release, I would assume the same would be for 4.35, so early/mid July. That's 6 months. Now not everyone wants a full complete rework of DRK, just changes to a few core skills, if they even just delayed the changes to 4.35, that's 6 months right there.

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Not surprising tbh. Another thought that crossed my mind, I can't be the only to think of it. But back previously when he said that reducing Shadow Wall's cooldown wouldn't help because the content is designed around it..

What he said without saying is that content is designed around Warrior using their exclusive invulnerability, Holmgang, every time DRK would only be able to Shadow Wall.

Hmm... Invuln or 30%..

Invuln or 30%..

SE logic :confused:

So of course they haven't had any time to re-work DRK (aka fix their eff ups) in the last 11 months

8 changes to drk coming and plunge change confirmed. I didnt see anything specific though other than plunge comments.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

8 changes to drk coming and plunge change confirmed. I didnt see anything specific though other than plunge comments.

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Can you elaborate or link job change details? I couldn't make the LL.

Yoshi did what he normally does and remained very vague and avoiding of it. Have to wait till patch release to see changes. He only commented on plunge and mentioned 8 changes.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Can you elaborate or link job change details? I couldn't make the LL.

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There weren't any:

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Summary: DRK - No adjustments for Dark Arts, Potency increase, Defense portion increased, usability improved (8 items), Plunge buff, animation cooldown will be reduced.

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from a blogpost in the reddit discord translation tab.

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2018/0...-patch-may-22/ again says something different so anything conclusive will be until patch day.

The reason he probably avoids flat statements for job changes is cause anything could change from now till release probably. We may not even get all the changes at once as im sure they will be working on drk and monitoring public reaction/responses like they did with war.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

The reason he probably avoids flat statements for job changes is cause anything could change from now till release probably. We may not even get all the changes at once as im sure they will be working on drk and monitoring public reaction/responses like they did with war.

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Drastically changing something within 2 weeks isn't going to happen with SE. They are very set in their ways. Hell, most preliminary patch notes don't change at all once the full notes are released.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Drastically changing something within 2 weeks isn't going to happen with SE. They are very set in their ways. Hell, most preliminary patch notes don't change at all once the full notes are released.

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Regardless, the option is there. Y'all would complain even more if he stated something and it ended up being different on release.

I highly doubt they could make a change within 2 weeks. We'll most likely know what the other 7 changes are as soon as the preliminary patch notes are made public.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

The reason he probably avoids flat statements for job changes is cause anything could change from now till release probably. We may not even get all the changes at once as im sure they will be working on drk and monitoring public reaction/responses like they did with war.

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Why do people keep saying this? As if they need to make an excuse for SE?
What we see is almost always what we get, the major exceptions being expansion patch notes.

I'll wait and see what the other changes are until I flip any proverbial tables. I know a lot of people dislike the core playstyle of 4.0 DRK so this patch does nothing for them, but I don't, I just want the tools it has to be more competitive with the other tanks. So this could fix the job for me.

Not expecting it to fully satisfy because SE rarely does with buffs, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why do people keep saying this? As if they need to make an excuse for SE?
What we see is almost always what we get, the major exceptions being expansion patch notes.

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:rolleyes:

At any rate 8 possible changes to drk coming, any guesses?

My pics are:
Plunge (obviously)
living dead
soul survivor
maybe darkside so its not a one and done?
Hopefully a lifesteal outside grit?

i still wait for Darkart last 2 second longer change

It's a bit hard to tell if the other adjustments are inclusive or additional (ie, offensive/defensive buffs, plunge, animation locks + the 8 other usability adjustments.. or are those part of the 8 items being adjusted?)

If they aren't changing Dark Arts then perhaps they will change some other things, such as take off MP cost for TBN and make it a longer CD, take DA effect off Syphon Strike* and/or C&S so you have more spots to hold DA. Something along those lines maybe.

My though was they said there were 8 adjustments. Plunge, and potency buffs. Now we do not know if Plunge was 1 out of 8. Or if Plunge was one and there were 7 other potency buffs to equal 8 adjustments.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's a bit hard to tell if the other adjustments are inclusive or additional (ie, offensive/defensive buffs, plunge, animation locks + the 8 other usability adjustments.. or are those part of the 8 items being adjusted?)

If they aren't changing Dark Arts then perhaps they will change some other things, such as take off MP cost for TBN and make it a longer CD, take DA effect off Syphon Strike* and/or C&S so you have more spots to hold DA. Something along those lines maybe.

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No one should be surprised at random potency buffs tossed around. Straightforward, smidge more damage. Whoo.

I'm more interested in the "Defense portion buff" as reddit has listed. That could be pretty much anything. Wall to 40%? TBN shield increase? Dark Mind physical? Wide open vagueness, but specifically on defense. This is the section Ill be jumping to on patch day.

I feel like if DRK becomes the DPS tank higher than PLD, we’re gonna end up going circles. I mean doesn’t WAR have AoE shields now? It would probably switch to PLD complaining about unique utility or job identity.

with 3 tanks around ppl will always find one that they deem to be inferior. no matter if it's true or not.

it's the never ending balancing circle

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

with 3 tanks around ppl will always find one that they deem to be inferior. no matter if it's true or not.

it's the never ending balancing circle

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That’s a fact, no doubt. Im more concerned on how it feels to play the class rather than the damage at this point. Also It’d be nice if they fixed the crafted BiS stuff, but I guess they can only tackle one issue at a time.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

Dark Knights are the slayers.

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Preach!

As a previous main Paladin who switched to Dark Knight as soon as Heavensward came out, I just haven't found the joy of DRK since Stormblood. Every time I play it feels off beat somehow. (Also I miss Scourge and Shadow Skin, and I loathe the fact that Reprisal became a Role skill.)
I've enjoyed reading thus far (page 7) in this very dedicated thread and I can't wait to see what changes we will see to Dark Knight in the upcoming patch.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

That’s a fact, no doubt. Im more concerned on how it feels to play the class rather than the damage at this point. Also It’d be nice if they fixed the crafted BiS stuff, but I guess they can only tackle one issue at a time.

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To be fair, adjusting the Primary Stat to Attack Power contributions for tanks back to how they were in Heavensward would most likely require no more development time than would a single potency buff to any of Dark Knight's skills; it's a value change on a given table. The removal of any further binding of primary stats to gear would likewise be a toggle.

Because items do not appear to adhere to growth curve formulas, but are instead given individually, I suspect retrofitting Fending accessories to carry two-thirds of the item-level-normal amounts of both Strength and Vitality (with the further sensible option of sharing a primary stat expansion cap), would take considerably more time, as might turning all primary stat materia into cracked or ruptured materia to be converted to another materia by choice or chance, respectively, but that's about it.

There's no real reason that pentamelding should be so required long-term for tanks and only tanks except that the developers apparently want tanks to have the option/obligation of spending far more money than everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's no real reason that pentamelding should be so required long-term for tanks and only tanks except that the developers apparently want tanks to have the option/obligation of spending far more money than everyone else.

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At this point it feels like they're making a point.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

At this point it feels like they're making a point.

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Is this point framed between a finger and thumb to one side, and two more fingers to the other, with "@tanks" written down its length?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is this point framed between a finger and thumb to one side, and two more fingers to the other, with "@tanks" written down its length?

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Nah. Just that it doesn't matter how insignificant a boost it is, people will still pay for it.

As it stands currently, assuming equal skill among all involved, pentamelded "BIS" accessories are like .2-3% more RDPS from both tanks total.

Clarifying: The materia slots are worth that much. Ideal stat set ups are probably worth a little more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Nah. Just that it doesn't matter how insignificant a boost it is, people will still pay for it.

As it stands currently, assuming equal skill among all involved, pentamelded "BIS" accessories are like .2-3% more RDPS from both tanks total.

Clarifying: The materia slots are worth that much. Ideal stat set ups are probably worth a little more.

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https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...378&height=161

That's the difference between WAR using pentamelds or not. About 2% DPS.

At 1% DPS gain per 1000 HP you lose (since that's the real loss between crafted and tome/diamond this tier) it's pretty decent. Personally I'd go way lower in some fights if I could and equip slaying accessories for sweet additional main stat but that's Heavensward and now how things work now.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...378&height=161

That's the difference between WAR using pentamelds or not. About 2% DPS.

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I know the numbers. 2% Tank Dps even at the 99th-100th rank of players is like 200, and among similar players who net a RDPS total of around 45-47000, 200 is about .3-4%. (So I was off a tad.)

If you think that's worth however much it can cost (Which on Gilgamesh, just considering materia it can be upwards of 4-5mil), more power to you. They're only necessary the first week of heavy progression, and even then necessity is debatable.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Ah sorry, I didn't mean to come off as trying to correct you. I was just giving an express absolute example of the difference based on the tank DPS calculator. It's definitely small enough that it's not a huge deal for anyone not trying to compete for DPS high scores, and it's definitely not going to mean the difference between enraging or not in a fight.

I didn't mean to sound snippish either.

As a goldsmith primary, believe me, I -want you- to want my rings and stuff, but it's also silly to paint them as anything other than optional beyond a very niche case.

A little feedback from a leveling pov.

I haven't touched DRK since the start of HW so i was positively surprised about few changes (no MP drain) As i was leveling (during last week) from 60 to 70 it was painfully obvious DRK was lacking mitigation vise compared to PLD and WAR. SB leveling dungeons aren't exactly challenging but the extra mitigation would have helped a lot on several pulls.

Here comes level 70 and TBN, a core mitigation tool for SB content. Why on earth is this skill level 70? Why isn't such an important skill introduced earlier? What were they thinking?

I feel The Blackest Night and Delirium need to switch places for leveling and roulette (SB dungeons) in mind. It's such an important asset for the job it needs to be introduced while leveling and not after hitting the level cap. Delirium on the other hand can wait until 70.

I am anxious for these defensive boost that they say they have made. A big reason why I have not ran leveling roulette during this expansion on my DRK is because of how painful it is to run compared to WAR and PLD.

However I wonder how will they make changes considering they have been revolving the entire defensive kit of DRK on a lvl 70 skill TBN.

The tank meld expense is just an undue burden on serious raiders. You are doing your party a disservice to pass up the highest damage gear for the entire tier available on day 1. Sure, they are virtually indistinguishable from 370 (almost) BIS counterparts, but you wont get all 5 of those pieces for weeks if you are a top tier, clear on week 1 type of group (which are the people who would buy pentameld day 1 anyway). If you are a player that cant afford pentameld, then you probably aren't clearing savage raids on opening day either and wait MONTHS to get full 370. Sure 6 months later you wont need it as you can get your weekly loot upgrades from the 24 man raid and hunts, but if you are in that situation, then you didn't need BIS gear to start with to do what you do.

The people who benefit the most from the crafted pieces (people that can buy on day 1) are largely the same people that will have the near identical 370s the fastest. Those who would actually use them for the majority of the ilvl cycle will probably never pentameld. Its just a stupid situation that only exists for tanks, but doesn't need too.

SE doesn't want to make vit our stat? Fine. Don't want to give us the same str as other classes? Fine. Don't want to hybrid Str/Vit? Fine. Redistribute the frakking str points between left and right side gear. Take some off my head to feet and up the gains on my accessories so tanks have the same gear progression as every other job instead of this janky crap. No rebalancing. No formula changes. No power creep. Just evenly distributed stats that actually grow with ilvl. World 1st raiders need a Gil Toss to get an edge? Pentameld full set of gear day 1 like they do now anyway. But that gear will be replaced over time just like every other job. Want to save your money and still be the best (eventually)? You can skip crafted just like everyone else and slowly build a 370 set. Equality! Achieved by typing different numbers into gear.

From Reddit Translation of Yoshida's interviews :
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...from_the_game/

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[Dark knight]
To reach 100% safisfaction for what players demand, a huge adjustment will be needed (note: e.g such as players wanting devs to remove dark arts spam from DRK), and those changes won't be possible in a regular patch, so they decided to prioritize the clear and understandable feed back and adjusted as much as they could with the available time. The changes to Dark knight will be basically improvements to usibility (this term is used a lot in Japanese) and buffs to both their DPS and defensive capabilities.

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What a lame excuse ! So Warrior can be rework in a regular patch but not DRK ? Seriously ? /disgusted. I don't think it's a bad translation but a bad communication for sure. So lame...

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Originally Posted by Arek

So Warrior can be rework in a regular patch but not DRK ?

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God it annoys me how many times people say this... Warrior was not a rework. It wasn't even a massive change to how the job functioned, they just simplified how to use Berserk and IR and added Auto Critical Directs to it, that's all it was. It seems like a rework, but the changes themselves weren't anywhere near what one would call a rework; which is usually used for drastic changes to job flow and alters the job's indentity ins some way, not just effect changes and potency increases.

Furthermore, you're conveniently ignoring this:

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(note: e.g such as players wanting devs to remove dark arts spam from DRK), and those changes won't be possible in a regular patch, so they decided to prioritize the clear and understandable feed back and adjusted as much as they could with the available time.

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As noted with the parentheses; e.g. stands for example given-- meaning that was what Yoshida mentioned in regards to a rework, the word rework here is referring to Dark Arts being adjusted/lessened, if you actually bothered to read it you'd have understood this. In fact, it was even said in the liveletter. They can't adjust Dark Arts right now as that would require an entire rework, but they're implementing as much as of our feedback as they could without altering Dark Arts.

In other words, they actually listened to us for once.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

God it annoys me how many times people say this... Warrior was not a rework.

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To be fair, WAR was heavily reworked in 2.1. It was far more broken than any tank ever have been, but still, they did it back then.