The general player base needs to improve

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

There's no I in "team" but there IS one in "fail".

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I'm so stealing this quote.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

They already do enforce a minimum skill level. They do so in the form of enrage timers, instance timers, and HP values. If players are unable to successfully deplete enemy HP values before their own are depleted, or before enrages or literal time outs, they are simply not meeting the bare minimum skill required, and if they can't do that, at level 70 now, that is VERY bad.

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Firstly, I fully understand what people are arguing and how being inconvenienced by poor play is frustrating. The only point I'm making is that its not going to change. Since ARR launched I can't think of a single dungeon or NM primal that I've been unable to complete due to player ineptitude. 24man riads can be frustrating at times, yes..... but they aren't as bad as people on the forums like to make out either. Savage and EX primal are another topic completely given players tend to make their own parties for the content.

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Originally Posted by Esrain

Still, re-queuing will just pull from the same pool of people. I haven't personally vote kicked anyone outside of people being afk, though isn't there an option to boot people for different playstyles?

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I think the 'kicking for differing play-styles' is what is causing the devs to consider notifying you who kicked you.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I think the 'kicking for differing play-styles' is what is causing the devs to consider notifying you who kicked you.

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What does that accomplish though? GMs have already said kicking for "differing play-style" is acceptable. Therefore, unless that rule changes, it makes little sense. If they are moving in that direction, it only further incentivize people to not give a damn. Now an Ice Mage can report you for kicking them all because you don't want to put up with carrying them through content. I would like to imagine the devs don't want to encourage that sort of mindset.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I\\'m going to preface this post with mentioning that I understand that FFXIV is just a video game. It should be fun first and foremost. People shouldn\\'t see the game as a chore or a job but as entertainment. But that aside I agree that players can sometimes be pretty painful to play with.

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Honestly I kinda hate that sentiment. Just a video game. Not a chore not a career just entertainment.

The reason I hate that is because like many gamers video games are not a chore they are not a career they are not just entertainment.

What they are is a hobby. And like with any other hobbies people want to be challenged.

No one picks up karate with the aim of staying the bottom belt forever they want to be challenged and climb the belts

No one joins a football team that doesn\\'t want to win games, the cup or league or whatever.

Painting drawing baking all exactly the same.

Being challenged in videogames is no bad thing and certainly does not make it a full time career or chore.

Sure some people play just to kill time but others see it more of a hobby..

I fly model helicopters and planes. It's a hobby I always want to improve and get better at it. Does not make it a career or a chore

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

To be fair i dont think its unreasonable to expect a level 70 player to know basic rotations by that stage.POTD is a lot to blame i think.

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Yes. The biggest issue with PoTD isn't that it helps players level jobs quickly. It's that the mobs die so fast there is no time to do a rotation. So, players reach 50 or so and have no experience with the full toolkit of their jobs. But, if you get rid of PoTD, raising alt jobs will frustrate players due to the amount of effort involved. It would better if the mobs of PoTD had more health, allowing players to do their basic rotations.

Now I just came out of an expert on my alt on aether and I really have to question people's situational awareness. I don't suppose this game teaches you what a vulnerability up stack is? This tank I had stood in his sephirot-mode puddle on the second fractal hard boss until he had 8 stacks (two puddles merged!). Then proceeded to basically be one shot by the next tankbuster.

It's probably things like this that spurred this thread into existence. Clearly something is going wrong somewhere in the ffxiv cogwheels.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

See, I would have less a problem with it if the devs didn't constantly prattle on about wanting to shrink the skill gap between players. That was their entire mantra going into Stormblood. Their solution? Silly gauges that more than half the jobs have very little use of, though they are pretty. Yoshida on numerous occasions claimed he didn't want to lower the ceiling but is all they did. Everything became easier, thus we're back to what incentives are there to improve?

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I mean, we track fewer DoTs now?

...

Yeah, that's about the only gap-squish I can see, except in given (initially gutted) classes (like Monk having lost modular control by losing its stanceless skills). And only in the sense that such was never difficult in the first place except to highly unskilled players.

I generally hate absolutes, but it seems logically sound that whatever squishes the gap will also take from the ceiling. At best, such as through the removal of artificial difficulty or improvement of information, etc, the effect on the floor is larger than the ceiling.

The only way to squish the gap without lowering the ceiling comes down to training your population, by whatever in-fight or other in-game means available.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Now I just came out of an expert on my alt on aether and I really have to question people's situational awareness. I don't suppose this game teaches you what a vulnerability up stack is? This tank I had stood in his sephirot-mode puddle on the second fractal hard boss until he had 8 stacks (two puddles merged!). Then proceeded to basically be one shot by the next tankbuster.

It's probably things like this that spurred this thread into existence. Clearly something is going wrong somewhere in the ffxiv cogwheels.

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Oh wow. . . It's not funny, but I'm laughing at the ridiculous mental picture it gave me.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

hobby

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My statement wasn't intended to be dismissive. I can say soccer is just a sport, or The Hobbit is just a book, or Aliens is just a movie.

I never said getting better or trying to be the best you can is a chore in FFXIV. I've had people say that to me, but I never made that claim myself. What I was saying that if it does feel that way you should stop and instead make the game fun again.

If I need to be blunt I will. My post was me trying to find a nice way to say "get better because I don't want to carry your ass or waste my time". But I also wanted to make it clear that no one should play if they find it unfun.

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Originally Posted by Riardon

People immediately started crying that it is too hard. And that because they didn't learn to have patience and play well. They expected to clear it at first try and when they didn't they outraged.
So SE said "lol fine whatever as long as I have my subs here take a nerf".

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Steps of Faith was nerfed because it required a lot of coordination, DF groups were bad at that, and then people started quitting as soon as they got it. That created a wall on the MSQ that players couldn't get through. It's not a situation where newbies can just "git gud" because they don't know what needs doing on the fight, and if the people that do know get it in roulette and immediately bail, how does that work? That one is on everyone who bailed every time they got it rather than try to organize the necessary coordination. That fight had a lot of moving parts pre-nerf and teams needed to know to do the correct things.

Shinryu was also hard, but it wasn't nerfed because the same problem didn't manifest. Generally speaking people stuck it out and tried to help new folks through it. Although it did have wipes and disbands, it didn't have the same kind of huge barrier to the MSQ problem. I saw a lot of stuff from the playerbase on that encoraging other players to stick with it and not bail precisely to try and avoid a nerf, so props to the playerbase on that. Part of the price of harder baseline content is that those of us who know what we're doing are going to need to be prepared to lend a mentoring hand.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

those of us who know what we're doing are going to need to be prepared to lend a mentoring hand.

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Which is all when and good when those we are lending the hand to listen/follow. It's a reoccurring issue I've noticed, and I mentioned it before. Some people just dont want to be taught.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but lately I've found it easier and less stressful to just carry others through rather than teach them. This doesn't fix the problem but I'm not sure what else I can do.

Speaking for the PvP side of the house, one of my favorite ways to "teach" - that is, when someone fires back at the generally good advice I give or perhaps aggressively wants to stick to a basic strategy I know won't be enough in the given situation, is to literally hand them the reigns.

"Okay, you're the shot caller now. Lead us to victory."

Some, very few, actually rose to the occasion and managed to make good calls, or at least figure out what I said/was doing/continued to do was actually good strategy. Others. . . well, didn't. And while sure, it's cruel of me to put all that heat on someone's head, it teaches them that if they want to take the lead, they better know the weight it carries. You don't always have to be right, but you'd better be ready to own up to it.

That being said, it needs to be noted that someone trying to step up and help guide or offer advice isn't just some know-it-all meanie trying to ruin everyone's fun and have it all done "their" way. Sometimes, they truly just know what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, and are offering advice on the fly rather than a Mr. Happy-length guide on it.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Now I just came out of an expert on my alt on aether and I really have to question people's situational awareness. I don't suppose this game teaches you what a vulnerability up stack is?

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I get the general idea of it - if there's an icon in your 'negative effects' with a number against it probably means you've got some kind of vulnerability debuff - but that doesn't help at all with learning (a) what you did to receive it and (b) what you should do about it now. Is there a trick to removing it? Do I need to play it safe? Does it mean I should hang back and stop attacking? Do I just ignore it and carry on as I was?

And as a PS4 player it is extra hard to check the description of what the icon actually means. I have to let go of the controller, pick up the mouse, find where the cursor is on my screen, move it over to that very small icon (which can shift around as extra statuses appear and disappear)... and it probably still doesn't tell me why I have it or what to do now.

If you're talking about the sort of vulnerabilities that only affect you when you're standing in a marked floor area, that's a bit different - certainly moving out of it is one of the things you *can* do to work out the source of a debuff - but maybe some people might not realise the difference between an enemy-cast area spell and one cast by another player? It takes a long time to understand the "look" of different spells and understand which ones are player abilities. (It took me ages to realise that dangerous looking black circle with spikes was in fact a dark knight's attack and not some monster trying to drag us into the void! Also Rain of Death when you first get high-leveled enough to encounter bards using it.)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Steps of Faith was nerfed because it required a lot of coordination, DF groups were bad at that, and then people started quitting as soon as they got it. [...] That fight had a lot of moving parts pre-nerf and teams needed to know to do the correct things.

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Hmm, maybe there could be a "Minstrel's Ballad" level or something that is just the original version of the fight? How did it actually work? Just more focus on needing to use the cannons etc?

Though on my first time through the trial, only recently, I didn't even realise any of the cannon mechanics were going on. Just went along on my usual way being a DPS and hitting things that were within range.... perhaps it needed some more prompts with featured speech bubbles urging us to use the cannons, get up on the towers, and so on. It would draw attention to the fact that they are there, and even if you're not sure how to use it yourself you could see what the other players are doing with it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Hmm, maybe there could be a "Minstrel's Ballad" level or something that is just the original version of the fight? How did it actually work? Just more focus on needing to use the cannons etc?

Though on my first time through the trial, only recently, I didn't even realise any of the cannon mechanics were going on. Just went along on my usual way being a DPS and hitting things that were within range.... perhaps it needed some more prompts with featured speech bubbles urging us to use the cannons, get up on the towers, and so on. It would draw attention to the fact that they are there, and even if you're not sure how to use it yourself you could see what the other players are doing with it.

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Actually, the NPCs did have dialogue bubbles prompting you to use the chains and cannons. Missing a cannon shot was costly, but the big rub was having to literally let it all play out to the end after a costly mistake. I can understand people not liking that, but even then, Steps was never difficult. It just called for more than blind DPS.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Speaking for the PvP side of the house, one of my favorite ways to "teach" - that is, when someone fires back at the generally good advice I give or perhaps aggressively wants to stick to a basic strategy I know won't be enough in the given situation, is to literally hand them the reigns.

"Okay, you're the shot caller now. Lead us to victory."

Some, very few, actually rose to the occasion and managed to make good calls, or at least figure out what I said/was doing/continued to do was actually good strategy. Others. . . well, didn't. And while sure, it's cruel of me to put all that heat on someone's head, it teaches them that if they want to take the lead, they better know the weight it carries. You don't always have to be right, but you'd better be ready to own up to it.

That being said, it needs to be noted that someone trying to step up and help guide or offer advice isn't just some know-it-all meanie trying to ruin everyone's fun and have it all done "their" way. Sometimes, they truly just know what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, and are offering advice on the fly rather than a Mr. Happy-length guide on it.

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Wow! I did the exact thing in that other MMO. It's funny that it worked out the same way too. Almost no one rose to the occasion but the ones that did taught me some valuable alternative strategies.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Hmm, maybe there could be a "Minstrel's Ballad" level or something that is just the original version of the fight? How did it actually work? Just more focus on needing to use the cannons etc?

Though on my first time through the trial, only recently, I didn't even realise any of the cannon mechanics were going on. Just went along on my usual way being a DPS and hitting things that were within range.... perhaps it needed some more prompts with featured speech bubbles urging us to use the cannons, get up on the towers, and so on. It would draw attention to the fact that they are there, and even if you're not sure how to use it yourself you could see what the other players are doing with it.

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It was pretty much the same as now except much less forgiving. These days, you can ignore most of the cannons and such and still beat it through raw DPS. Back then, you couldn't do that. So you needed to hit with the dragonkillers, which means people needed to snare correctly, adds needed picking up and moving to the cannons so the cannons could kill them, etc.

I mean, if you're a group on Discord with a leader, that's not that difficut. You'll assign stuff, call when to do things, and such. So someone who has never snared before can be told exactly when to do it and you're probably fine. In a DF PUG, it's a lot harder to do that, so you get more errors just due to weaker coordination. On that fight, those errors were very costly, and making them didn't wipe you immediately. He'd walk all the way to the end before the wipe.

Players reacted to that with "F this". SE reacted to that by making it easier. I mean, as an Ex level fight that would have worked fine (and could have been made harder), because at that level requiring some organization isn't a big deal. It wasn't popular to require it in DF, though, although a lot of groups were able to clear it (I had good luck if someone took charge and asked "who wants to do X?" up front, and although it's more forgiving now, i still find that works).

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I get the general idea of it - if there's an icon in your 'negative effects' with a number against it probably means you've got some kind of vulnerability debuff - but that doesn't help at all with learning (a) what you did to receive it and (b) what you should do about it now. Is there a trick to removing it? Do I need to play it safe? Does it mean I should hang back and stop attacking? Do I just ignore it and carry on as I was?

And as a PS4 player it is extra hard to check the description of what the icon actually means. I have to let go of the controller, pick up the mouse, find where the cursor is on my screen, move it over to that very small icon (which can shift around as extra statuses appear and disappear)... and it probably still doesn't tell me why I have it or what to do now.

If you're talking about the sort of vulnerabilities that only affect you when you're standing in a marked floor area, that's a bit different - certainly moving out of it is one of the things you *can* do to work out the source of a debuff - but maybe some people might not realise the difference between an enemy-cast area spell and one cast by another player? It takes a long time to understand the "look" of different spells and understand which ones are player abilities. (It took me ages to realise that dangerous looking black circle with spikes was in fact a dark knight's attack and not some monster trying to drag us into the void! Also Rain of Death when you first get high-leveled enough to encounter bards using it.)




Hmm, maybe there could be a "Minstrel's Ballad" level or something that is just the original version of the fight? How did it actually work? Just more focus on needing to use the cannons etc?

Though on my first time through the trial, only recently, I didn't even realise any of the cannon mechanics were going on. Just went along on my usual way being a DPS and hitting things that were within range.... perhaps it needed some more prompts with featured speech bubbles urging us to use the cannons, get up on the towers, and so on. It would draw attention to the fact that they are there, and even if you're not sure how to use it yourself you could see what the other players are doing with it.

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Just to list the adjustments first. They...

- Reduced Vishap's HP by 35%
- Massively reduced the HP and damage of all the adds
- Reduced Vishap stepping on you by a little more than half (Used to be a borderline one-shot, if not an outright one)
- Greatly reduced cannon explosion splash damage

Prior to these changes, if you missed even a single cannon it usually resulted in a wipe. Since you couldn't easily reset and try again, this meant second or third attempts took forever to start, let alone complete. In some cases, it was faster to simply take the penalty and re-queue later. Once someone left, people bailed en masse. A significant problem outside him being somewhat overtuned is the rewards didn't justify the time. He gave no more poetics than a standard trial of that level. So you basically put in twice the effort for no real benefit. I'll never understand why they didn't stuff Vishap into MSQ Roulette and bump up the rewards.

More challenging content, you say? After the nuclear fallout we saw following Shinryu NM? :rolleyes:

As we say in Australia. M8 pls.

It's blatantly clear that there are some people who aren't willing to put forth even the smallest amount effort to not be absolutely horrendous. And I'm not even remotely talking about end-game content here or sneering at gray parses, I mean just basic things like holding aggro as a tank, using heals as a healer, using any AoE as a DPS - I really wish I were joking about these things.

I have witnessed some downright shocking garbage lately just doing my dailies and I don't know where it's coming from. I really have to wonder how some of these people even managed to correctly install the game, never mind actually playing it.

I'm not sure if it's actually true, but I find it highly amusing that player performance standards on average allegedly turned out to be noticeably weaker than the expectations projected by the devs. Says an awful lot I would say. Even better is that this problem seems to be confined more to the West just by looking at the clear rates for things like Ultimate Coil, where Japan has a colossal lead over NA and EU.

I disagree, the general player base does not need to improve. In my experience, roulettes, duty finder raids, dungeons, and trials have the right difficulty for the typical player like myself. Perfect rotations and melds are not needed to finish these, just a willingness to try and also to have fun. While I read the horror stories on these forums about people pressing one button or doing other trolling things, it's a very small minority in my experience.

It will, of course, take more skill and dedication to do extreme and savage content and the game already provides ways for such people to organize these groups. You can be totally selective. If you choose to try this tougher content in party finder then you are taking a chance and if you get a slacker or a troll, it is not the fault of us typical players and our lack of talent.

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Originally Posted by Kiryuin-Satsuki

More challenging content, you say? After the nuclear fallout we saw following Shinryu NM? :rolleyes:

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Best endfight yet. Fairly low damage, infrequent and quickly obvious danger, but enough things going on at once and with big enough booms to appear threatening.

But yes, on average it would take an extra pull to complete when getting it for roulette with bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Best endfight yet. Fairly low damage, infrequent and quickly obvious danger, but enough things going on at once and with big enough booms to appear threatening.

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Preach it.

My disappointment was at an all-time high when I started seeing all the exaggerated complaints about Shinryu rolling in on the OF and elsewhere. It truly was a moment of beauty when word of Shin NM being """too hard""" reached the ears of the devs and they essentially responded with "Well no, we're not going to change it. Please dial down the amount of sucking going on."

A small victory for the people with a functional motor cortex for sure, but sadly we might have to subdue our hopes for having another similar MSQ fight in the 70-80 expansion and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Kiryuin-Satsuki

More challenging content, you say? After the nuclear fallout we saw following Shinryu NM? :rolleyes:
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Funny thing is that fight was only hard because of the number of players who went in without doing there 70 job quest and getting there i290 gear + weapons.

Saw so many players in there still using augmented shire stuff in half there slots.. that's the only reason shinryu nm was ever hard.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Funny thing is that fight was only hard because of the number of players who went in without doing there 70 job quest and getting there i290 gear + weapons.

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He was complained about because he's miles harder than any story fight preceding him. Nidhogg had an add phase with 3 mobs, two stationary and one mobile with a very slow attack. Shin has 12 mobs interspersed with meteor drops that would kill you at i290 if you weren't exactly on the edge, as well as being surrounded by a pit. The chest beasting "it's not hard" crowd get annoying in this game.

If anything Shinryu hard is stupid because they set the bounds of what you can do in casual content too early. They legitimately can't make anything harder than him at recommended ilvl without starting to get into ex-level content. He kind of ruined Byakko hard because of this; he's actually much easier than Shin.

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Originally Posted by Minako_Nightsong

just a willingness to try

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You overestimate how little it takes to clear most of the content in this game.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

He was complained about because he's miles harder than any story fight preceding him. Nidhogg had an add phase with 3 mobs, two stationary and one mobile with a very slow attack. Shin has 12 mobs interspersed with meteor drops that would kill you at i290 if you weren't exactly on the edge, as well as being surrounded by a pit. The chest beasting "it's not hard" crowd get annoying in this game.

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No one said it wasn't hard because, as Dzian said, it was hard...because half of the randoms you'd get wouldn't even bother to do their level 70 job quest and would be undergeared in addition to having no clue what they're doing.

Coming from WoW, which is known for it's toxicity, FF has always been a rather interesting mix from what I've observed.

Roulettes are usually fine. I see lots of first timers, a higher number of friendly players than in WoW, people saying hello and the odd bad group which is natural. Mistakes are often taken in stride in easier content, tacts explained if needed.

The harder content and forums however are twice as elite as WoW. I've never seen a more "git gud" mentality in a game. Everything is "git gud" and defended, unnecessary button bloat, clunky controls, animation locks, server delay, whatever is brought up is "git gud". It's something I miss about WoW, they have an extremely smooth, responsive combat system. But I get the feeling FF players would fight to the death against any improvements to theirs. Because it's fine, "git gud" :l

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Coming from WoW, which is known for it's toxicity, FF has always been a rather interesting mix from what I've observed.

Roulettes are usually fine. I see lots of first timers, a higher number of friendly players than in WoW, people saying hello and the odd bad group which is natural. Mistakes are often taken in stride in easier content, tacts explained if needed.

The harder content and forums however are twice as elite as WoW. I've never seen a more "git gud" mentality in a game. Everything is "git gud" and defended, unnecessary button bloat, clunky controls, animation locks, server delay, whatever is brought up is "git gud". It's something I miss about WoW, they have an extremely smooth, responsive combat system. But I get the feeling FF players would fight to the death against any improvements to theirs. Because it's fine, "git gud" :l

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I agree with this.

I'm all for improvements, but good tools in the hands of amateurs don't often produce solid results. Now, if those same amateurs show more of a willingness to learn and face challenges rather than cry nerf, perhaps those good tools could be even better?

A lot of people do sarcastically fire off the old "git gud" bit, but honestly, the bar is already set so low in most content that that's really just the basis of the improvements many of us talk about.

Let me paint it differently:

From guildhests to Savage content, I strive to not just be capable of doing it, but doing it well. If something needs to be learned or be mindful of, I take the steps to know it. I PRACTICE: If I'm good at it, then I want to stay sharp. If I'm not, I want to get better. This isn't the least bit difficult; do you know why? Because it was a habit I formed while leveling. I didn't wait til endgame to start paying attention and trying to do well. For that reason "gitting gud" isn't a challenge or an answer to everything. It was just something I made a habit out of. The rest was easy after that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The harder content and forums however are twice as elite as WoW. I've never seen a more "git gud" mentality in a game. Everything is "git gud" and defended, unnecessary button bloat, clunky controls, animation locks, server delay, whatever is brought up is "git gud". It's something I miss about WoW, they have an extremely smooth, responsive combat system. But I get the feeling FF players would fight to the death against any improvements to theirs. Because it's fine, "git gud" :l

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Agree with this too. I especially like the people defending PVP - guys... it just sucks in this game, c'mon - trying to PVP with that glacial GCD on unreliable servers? The world is awash with better options for you if you want to PVP - even WoW is better.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Agree with this too. I especially like the people defending PVP - guys... it just sucks in this game, c'mon - trying to PVP with that glacial GCD on unreliable servers? The world is awash with better options for you if you want to PVP - even WoW is better.

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And how much of it have you played? How well did you play it?

Because some of us not only played a hell of a lot of it when it was better than it was now, we were good at it despite its imperfections. So my questions stand.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And how much of it have you played? How well did you play it?

Because some of us not only played a hell of a lot of it when it was better than it was now, we were good at it despite its imperfections. So my questions stand.

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PVP in FFXIV has always been terrible though. Neither the servers, the game engine or the gameplay is suited for it. And it's not a matter of being good or bad at it.

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Originally Posted by Minako_Nightsong

I disagree, the general player base does not need to improve. In my experience, roulettes, duty finder raids, dungeons, and trials have the right difficulty for the atypical player like myself. Perfect rotations and melds are not needed to finish these, just a willingness to try and also to have fun. While I read the horror stories on these forums about people pressing one button or doing other trolling things, it's a very small minority in my experience.


It will, of course, take more skill and dedication to do extreme and savage content and the game already provides ways for such people to organize these groups. You can be totally selective. If you choose to try this tougher content in party finder then you are taking a chance and if you get a slacker or a troll, it is not the fault of us atypical players and our lack of talent.

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I don't think you know what atypical means >.>

Mo one is suggesting you need perfect rotations and melds, merely that you need to actually be doing something. I can't think of any normal mode trial where at least two players (as long as it isn't both tanks/healers) could sit down and not do anything that we still couldn't cleae through DF.

I had a MNK in Rab the other night who missed every fight. When he got called out he told us "does it matter?" and fed us some excuse about how his kid woke up unexpectedly. Well then drop! But the sad thing is it doesn't matter, our group was still more than capable of killing all our adds even with one DPS just literally not participating.

If no one had noticed that guy would have gotten his clear with literally no more effort than queueing and being willing to drag down his group... Why is that even possible?

Oh, right, because once you add in 3-4k of healer dps that doesn't even get factored into fights plus the fact that these "dps checks" are based around someone spamming one button apparently if you happen to have more than one competent DPS you're pretty much set.

Click on the Duty's exit (or go into the menu and leave), and get prompted with something like this (obviously, you don't do Doma Castle with 8 people. It's a quick photoshop to get the point across):
https://i.imgur.com/jBJQOUh.jpg
If you are worried about "shaming", then disable chat when this window is open. Or simply prompt it during the black screen after the duty.

Would be a good start to provide people with a little tool to help them compare themselves with others.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Agree with this too. I especially like the people defending PVP - guys... it just sucks in this game, c'mon - trying to PVP with that glacial GCD on unreliable servers? The world is awash with better options for you if you want to PVP - even WoW is better.

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Remember when Yoshi said that he wanted PvP to be an esport? I mean, I think they did a good job with revamping the PvP for stormblood, but even then this games PvP can't really compare to pure PvP games.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

PVP in FFXIV has always been terrible though. Neither the servers, the game engine or the gameplay is suited for it. And it's not a matter of being good or bad at it.

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You know, I've covered this one a lot in the PvP forums.

A lot of people that said it was bad largely never even tried it, rather they just accepted word of mouth about it. Sometimes that word of mouth came from someone who stepped in, performed poorly or was uncooperative with their team (the ol' "first strike", get-them-before-they-get-you defensive attitude) and had a bad experience for it. Some actually did try it and didn't like it, and that's fine. Fact is however, before 4.0, a LOT of people not only enjoyed it, they were good at it. It's popular thought that PvP was "dead" before Stormblood, but there was in fact, an active and competitive community; one that's been all but destroyed by SE's questionable attempts to "fix" and foolproof PvP.

It's also popular thought that the game engine/gameplay isn't suited for it, and that's just not true. It could be better, yes. Hell, it WAS better before Stormblood, but if it wasn't suited for it, they wouldn't have added it. It might come as a surprise, but some of the PvE skills considered useless in PvE were strong abilities in PvP. It doesn't help however, the general avoidance and misunderstanding, combined with overall lack of knowledge of PvP that makes the idea that "PvP in FFXIV was always bad" so popular.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Remember when Yoshi said that he wanted PvP to be an esport? I mean, I think they did a good job with revamping the PvP for stormblood, but even then this games PvP can't really compare to pure PvP games.

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You might want to look again. I think it speaks in volumes when the players who were once dedicated to PvP when it was supposedly "bad" largely hate it enough to quit FFXIV entirely. SE ignoring issues with botting/exploiting for XP for half a year, kneejerk changes to a new mode that didn't fix the big problems and made things that worked NOT work, and the repeated, questionably poor changes made to the Feast in an attempt to "foolproof" it and make it an e-sport (while still not addressing the bigger issues like all the cheating and such) really paint a whole different picture.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

You know, I've covered this one a lot in the PvP forums.

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I know. And you really do need to stop taking it so personally.
But I support you - if playing PVP in this game - with this system - rocks your world then more power to you. Genuinely - I hope it improves to your liking.
Personally I hate it - it is infuriatingly bad from the ground up. Don't get me wrong I love dressing up my kittyboi WHM and playing in Eorzea as much as the next dude in his mid-thirties BUT (and it's a big but) this cannot distract from the fact that playing any sort of PVP with that GCD is screen-punchingly infuriating to me.
I actually logged into WoW last night (first time in 7 months) to do a bit of housekeeping and played a couple of WSG matches and believe me it's like night and day. This isn't just personal preference talking - it's not about aesthetics, it's a genuine system that works as intended and a system that doesn't.
I would love PVP to work in this game - I really would as I miss being able to hop into it here and there - but freewheeling christ - that GCD is broken and not fit for purpose and the combat is not in any way suitable for it.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Click on the Duty's exit (or go into the menu and leave), and get prompted with something like this (obviously, you don't do Doma Castle with 8 people. It's a quick photoshop to get the point across):
https://i.imgur.com/jBJQOUh.jpg
If you are worried about "shaming", then disable chat when this window is open. Or simply prompt it during the black screen after the duty.

Would be a good start to provide people with a little tool to help them compare themselves with others.

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even if the chat was disabled they are very adamant to not show Damage debt or healed or any number in normal content, with pvp theres a different mentality, with what you suggested you could have people throw out names of someone who didn't know what to do and have them shunned from future parties, unless they could make it truly anonymous yet informative or similar to the record ready check, but again with that could cause players to abuse someone D:

It's not personal, but imagine hearing the same misinformed stances on it for 4 years. It gets old.

There's also the bit where people consider the "new" PvP to be better, either without having experienced the "old", or buying into the same misconceptions about the old and using that as reason why the "new" is better. I mean, I never did Ultimate Coil; as such, I wouldn't consider myself qualified to speak in absolutes about it. That's not what you said or intended, and I see that, but I've seen far too many others do so, and again, it gets old.

Doesn't help that most of the experienced players either are forum banned, don't want to speak on the forums (generally for having been ignored for so long), or have literally just quit the game.

Where do you draw the line on improving, though? The definition of 'bad' is extremely subjective. I know I struggle hard with Rabanastre, but that's because it has some of the absolute worst, most deceiving visual queues in the game on top of stupid amounts of massive AoE spam leaving no room for mistakes. It's one of the few examples that I can think of where FFXIV tries way too hard to be difficult, missing the mark on a fair challenge completely. The player can't be blamed for that.

My concern is much more to do with other players being inconsiderate, i.e. DPS that refuse to stand next to their healers (SCH and AST have no AoE healing range whatsoever) or tanks that immediately go for stupid pull sizes without any regard to the rest of the party's gear or capability.

Okay let's cut it with the PvP talks. Anyone that played PvP on other games will easely tell you XIV's PvP might be the worst on the market right now. No amount of time or playing it well makes it a good PvP experience.