Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

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Since this is a MMO and not a single player I already said plenty why balance wise I feel that it is affecting the game in the wrong ways

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Since this is a MMO and not a single player I already said plenty why balance wise I feel that it is affecting the game in the wrong ways

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Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

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Cannot cast higher level/the strongest spells, you say? *laughs in Verflare/Verholy*


I definitely don't agree with Remedi's position on the Raise skill but I can see why they have it. Basically they think "recovery" should be the sole job of the healers not the DPS nor the tanks. I think at this point in the game with three caster role options, two of which have raises, there is no reason for it not to be kept by the caster role. However, this obviously includes BLM, hence this thread. My assertion is further supported by the implementation of the entire role pool system in 4.0, which by extension all but means that the utility that roles have should be used across the board and is sanctioned firmly by Square Enix. Saying that "casters shouldn't be able to raise" is akin to saying that casters shouldn't have Apocatastasis and ranged shouldn't have Palisade. These skills were deliberately given and should be utilized.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"This raise doesn't inflict res sickness."

Bam. Give it a 3 minute cooldown.

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No, it should definitely still have Weakness/Brink associated with it, because those debuffs penalize the person that died (this is why they fixed weakness in 4.0 to be main stat reduction only, so the person that died is penalized worse damage output-wise for the death and the healers are not penalized as harshly (due to lowered VIT/HP in the previous version)). I stand by my suggestion that it should do something to increase the BLM's damage by using the Raise, as that would give incentive for them to use it and make some sense from a class design/lore point of view.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

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We are discussing about an inbalance between the caster role, some say that it should be giving to all and as for myself I say otherwise, frankly I would say it's not complaining we are simply explaining our point of wiew and honestly you have simply shown the wikipedia description for the RDM so I took what you said for the content it was referred to

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Oh snap, I thought this was a single player game, thanks for setting me straight...

Instead of complaining about skills that either one job gets or another lacks, try resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available.

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This is arguing for the sake of arguing. You are being pushed back on because your comments aren't relevant in the context of discussing how the game actually does and/or should work. I'm not sure what that bit about "resolving your problems in game with the tools you have available" is even supposed to mean.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Why is this so difficult to grasp? "Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot.

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What armor can FFXIV's RDM equip that FFXIV's BLM cannot? There's plenty of armor it can wear that WHM can't but then again this game separates the INT and MND stat so why would a WHM even want to wear endgame caster gear?

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They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series.

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Not very versatile in FFXIV. It's sole job is DPS. It's sole goal is killing enemies. All the tools in its kit minus one are geared to that purpose: verraise (vercure can be used offensively by proccing a dualcast mid phase transition). In Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood, Red Mage has no versatility: it cannot function as a healer, and it cannot function as a tank. The "White Magic" and "Black Magic" it uses are repainted versions of the same spell. It does not wear gear other casters cannot (minus the AF gear, but if you bring that up the other casters have more options due to more AF gear). Having a raise and otherwise being completely tooled to DPS does not versatility make.

So, take away it's versatility and it's unique gear choices, and what's left?

It's a pure-blooded DPS job.

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However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest."

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And when it's a pure-blooded DPS job, it has two options: hit hard and make others hit harder, or hit hard as all living hell. Even that second option, before it's pointed out, is a stretch given how synergy in this game works, which is what is seeing BLM into its current predicament. RDM has a unique extra niche with verraise, but at the moment, compared to say Bard, it does neither of those things. If FFXIV didn't follow the Holy Trinity, perhaps RDM could have been a support / buffer job, but it does and RDM is DPS. Balancing a DPS to have low damage output because it's "lore friendly" is a really good way to see a good job dumpstered.

Is that a difficult to grasp concept?

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue, here. The job is a DPS role, certainly, but no other DPS role can carry an entire boss fight with Vercure. The job is DPS but with high emphasis on support, much like BRD and to a lesser degree NIN. This is "versatility" in my eyes, and SE would most likely agree. It's true that the job could use more support to try to upkeep with BRD, but that's a topic for another thread; this thread is about Raise and BLM/the caster role.


With high emphasis on support, it makes sense for it to Rez Dispense(tm). It does not make sense for BLM to be able to output frequent raises, hence the recast ability idea. Attach some kind of power buff to it and bam, you got yourself a "pure damage" raise ability. Outside of Remedi's assertion that only healers should have the ability to recover (which I don't see happening, as aforementioned), I literally don't see how anyone can argue with this proposal. It is a win-win all around.


The only hesitation I could see coming from SE's end is that if BLM is given the ability to "profit" from another player's death, it may be used for grief play or harassment in the duty finder (ex: healer allows someone to die deliberately so the BLM can use the raise and get the damage boost)

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue, here.

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Look at the post I'm responding to, and it becomes somewhat clear that I'm arguing you cannot balance Red Mage like this is a single player RPG, where you can adjust a single job for "versatility."

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The job is a DPS role, certainly, but no other DPS role can carry an entire boss fight with Vercure.

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I'll let you know how happy the next healer I run into is when I spend the whole boss fight doing that. Also, it doesn't particularly matter in current raid tier content, I'm not carrying o3s, o4s, or ultimate with vercure.

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The job is DPS but with high emphasis on support, much like BRD and to a lesser degree NIN. This is "versatility" in my eyes, and SE would most likely agree. It's true that the job could use more support to try to upkeep with BRD, but that's a topic for another thread; this thread is about Raise and BLM/the caster role.

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You're right. The particular comment I was responding to though was "Red Mage should be balanced like this is a singleplayer game." Perhaps you're right and SE sees being able to heal low level content as a DPS and rez dispenser as versatility; perhaps they intentionally balanced RDM to be like all the singleplayer RPGs by having it tuned for the start of the tier (start of the game), and over time you want to throw it in the bin for a stronger more specialized job. If they did, that's dumb both for people who don't want to play it and people who do.

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With high emphasis on support, it makes sense for it to Rez Dispense(tm). It does not make sense for BLM to be able to output frequent raises, hence the recast ability idea. Attach some kind of power buff to it and bam, you got yourself a "pure damage" raise ability. Outside of Remedi's assertion that only healers should have the ability to recover (which I don't see happening, as aforementioned), I literally don't see how anyone can argue with this proposal. It is a win-win all around.

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Dude, you really are becoming a broken record. At no point have I ever made a comment about your recast raise idea. Instead you just hijack me responding to somebody claiming RDM should just shut up because singleplayer balance to harp it some more. I still have no opinion about it, just please, find less convoluted ways to keep winding back to it.

What I find most annoying is it's hard to have any conversation at all without you harping back to this in some way. I could say something as benign as "It'd be cool if RDM had verfreeze/verflood for an AoE finisher" and I'd probably make money betting you'd tie that back to BLM needing a recast raise somehow.

I understand your dislike for the job, especially since you were forced to play it for prog. I don't want RDM to be a progboy either, and I also hate the position Black Mage is in. It annoys me to no end to see 35 summoners cleared ultimate, 2 red mages, and 0 black mages. I don't care if vercure is nerfed to 100pot and verraise is dropped off the dualcast, and your BLM raise idea are all implemented at once.

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The only hesitation I could see coming from SE's end is that if BLM is given the ability to "profit" from another player's death, it may be used for grief play or harassment in the duty finder (ex: healer allows someone to die deliberately so the BLM can use the raise and get the damage boost)

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I can see that as a possibility, yes.

...I explain exactly that in the following sentences. Should probably read the whole post before replying bit by bit.

If your healer is dead or locked out Vercure can absolutely carry the group to victory, and in case you haven't done progression on RDM, a well-timed Vercure or two can and will absolutely save the party from wiping (read: "carry" to victory), so your argument is very short-sighted on this front. Healer just died and incoming tank buster/need to heal up Walking Dead, etc? You bet your ass Vercure can save the party. Even during downtime, Vercure can help healers top everyone off during GCO or during The Decisive Battle, there are LOADS of uses for Vercure outside of just "insulting the healers' intelligence" when you should be doing damage.

I'm not interested in having a "conversation" with anyone that doesn't acknowledge the suggestion (note all the people saying "hurdur don't give blm raise plz muh uptime loss of dmg want more 'splosions"), and this entire thread is about why BLM should either have raise or no caster role members should have raise, so I won't apologize for repeating myself on the topic until I get a legitimate critique of the idea. These people (devs included) don't seem to realize that raise does not have to function the way that it currently does on all jobs, as a GCD that requires a high amount of MP and a long cast time. Let's change that. Oh, and I should note that I'm not trying to call you out specifically for not acknowledging recast idea, only those who don't seem to be interested in acknowledging it.




Lastly, whether or not I dislike the job (RDM) is only minimally relevant; I only want to not be "forced" to play the job, and for others not to be forced NOT to play the job. A fix on this/these fronts can and will solve this dilemma. Let the RDMs play RDM and let the BLMs play BLM; don't force each to play the other.


EDIT: In reply to the below comment (since I've already run out of forum posts for the day, apparently, and the forum doesn't save your written response when you receive this error), I will apologize for coming off as brash. I am very passionate about the issues with the caster role, and as a player who has played it at the high end basically since launch I have done a LOT of thinking about the role and its shortcomings. Also, I'm notorious for submitting my responses and then editing them after I realize I could have said something better or more succinctly or that something came off in a bad way, so please do re-read this post as I edited it several times before seeing your response.

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If your healer is dead or locked out Vercure can absolutely carry the group to victory, and in case you haven't done progression on RDM, a well-timed Vercure or two can and will absolutely save the party from wiping (read: "carry" to victory), so your argument is very short-sighted on this front. Healer just died and incoming tank buster/need to heal up Walking Dead, etc? You bet your ass Vercure can save the party.

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Okay, you have a very different definition of carry than I do. Fair enough. No Red Mage is going to stand in for the white mage in savage progression: you're not going to outright replace the WHM and SCH with two Red Mages.

I've not once had that moment in progression where my vercure made any noticeable difference in a wipe, and for that matter nor have I had one where raising people has made a particular shift in progression. That said, my raid group likes learning the mechanics one at a time, so usually the lead's called for wipe by the time I finished trying to pick people up off the floor.

The only time vercure's actually saved somebody's life, in my experience, has been my own when I went in undergeared with no food to v4s the first time, and needed to cure myself in between the space of two flares going off to live. The strat was then optimized for healer uptime and even that was no longer necessary.

All that was just to explain where I'm coming from in regards to this discussion.

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I'm not interested in having a "conversation" with anyone that doesn't acknowledge the suggestion (note all the people saying "hurdur don't give blm raise plz loss of dmg want more 'splosions")

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Okay?
I acknowledge your suggestion. I have no comment on it, however.

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and this entire thread is about why BLM should either have raise or no caster role members should have raise, so I won't apologize for repeating myself on the topic until I get a legitimate critique of the idea.

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Sure, you have a point that this is the point of the thread. How about every other thread you've brought it up ad nauseum in? Does it ever strike you I don't disagree with you, I just don't have any critique to offer which is why I never comment on it?

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Lastly, whether or not I dislike the job is only minimally relevant; I only want to have to not be "forced" to play the job, and for others not to be forced NOT to play the job. A fix on this/these fronts can and will solve this dilemma. Let the RDMs play RDM and let the BLMs play BLM, don't force each to play the other.

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Let me quote you here:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

...I explain exactly that in the following sentences. Should probably read the whole post before replying bit by bit.

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There's no point at which I disagree with you in this sentiment, and your suggestion sounds okay. I don't care how they do it, I just want that to be the state of the casters.

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EDIT: In reply to the below comment (since I've already run out of forum posts for the day, apparently, and the forum doesn't save your written response when you receive this error), I will apologize for coming off as brash.

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Sometimes I really do dislike these forums in particular just for the daily post limit. It's an outdated system and these are the only forums I've come across which have something like this (*and the 1000 word count, which is so easily worked around it might as well be deleted) rule in place. I also apologize if I come off as brash.

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I am very passionate about the issues with the caster role, and as a player who has played it at the high end basically since launch I have done a LOT of thinking about the role and its shortcomings.

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I will admit, I'm less defensive of RDM because of the class' history and more for it filling the role of spellblade. In games, I've always preferred that archetype, and in lieu of it I prefer melee. I would actually either be a SAM or DRG main still if the group I finally found didn't want a caster more. That group then went to run double BRD through o1s-o3s prog and now I'm rambling.

Pure spellcasters have never been interesting to me, and as such I don't hold a lot of interest in BLM and SMN. That's why sometimes I'll go so far as to forget I'm playing RDM and instead fill in the gaps to pretend to be a Rune Knight or some other spellblade.

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Also, I'm notorious for submitting my responses and then editing them after I realize I could have said something better or more succinctly or that something came off in a bad way, so please do re-read this post as I edited it several times before seeing your response.

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Okay, I'll re-read it.

I should also note I apologize for the amount of derail this has caused on the thread. You are right and it is about BLM raising, end of discussion; I shouldn't have snipped at you regarding bringing your idea up to reign my off topic conversation back to topic.

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Even during downtime, Vercure can help healers top everyone off during GCO or during The Decisive Battle, there are LOADS of uses for Vercure outside of just "insulting the healers' intelligence" when you should be doing damage.

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Perhaps here is just where my selfishness and being a controller player shines. A single 350 potency cure can be life or death for one person: I then have to know who needs it most and be able to target them at a moment's notice. During GCO (which I am admittedly still figuring out the finer points of, despite my clear) I'm more focused on my own debuffs, surviving to first or third death (group pending), and then apoccing the tank with Allagan Field just before we're all knocked back.

I do, however, concede the point that vercure can be quite useful. Like I admitted earlier, I'm much more selfish about vercure than maybe I should be, only using it during things like Decisive to proc a dualcast on myself so I have dualcast and swiftcast in case he spawns on me with thunder or uses blizzard.

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These people (devs included) don't seem to realize that raise does not have to function the way that it currently does on all jobs, as a GCD that requires a high amount of MP and a long cast time. Let's change that.

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To be honest, and nothing against Yoshi P, but the whole dev team seems to like not changing things. That isn't to say I disagree that the idea of a raise needs to be uniform across all casters: in fact it's the opposite. I wish they'd branch out more into more unique ideas.

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Oh, and I should note that I'm not trying to call you out specifically for not acknowledging recast idea, only those who don't seem to be interested in acknowledging it.

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I've seen enough of what you're talking about in this thread alone. Hell, I may have spouted it a time or two and just not remembered, so I'd even understand if you were referring directly to me.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Now see that might do it or at least would make people consider it. Or alternately they could get rid of Verraise which I believe myself and most of RDMs are tired of being brought for.

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Put it into Role Actions and remove Swiftcast IMO. It stings Red Mage a little but not as much as it does Summoner. So you have:

Reanimation
Spell. 10s Cast. 180s Recast
MP Cost: 4800
Effect: Raise ally, bypassing Resurrection Sickness, with the Living Undeath effect for 10s. If this ally is healed to full health within that duration, Living Undeath is removed, otherwise, they die again.

For the 3 casters, this has the same effect but different implications.
Red Mage: A heavy cost, but instant via Dual Cast
Black Mage: Minimal Cost, but Triple Cast is required to minimize DPS impact.
Summoner: Medium cost, but loss of, at minimum, 520 Potency (4 Ruin 3s)

In return, Red Mage's Dual Cast increases the potency of spells by 20%. Based on a quick glance, this is approximately a +6% in overall damage for the Red Mage and will easily cover any loss that Red mage incurs in the scenario where they needed to swiftcast on the move.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Put it into Role Actions and remove Swiftcast IMO.

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I'm mostly for this except for how useful Swift is for RDM in its eternal game of "Jolt 2 is lava". I would keep Swift as a role action tbh, especially if the reanimation itself keeps its 180s cooldown across all three.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm mostly for this except for how useful Swift is for RDM in its eternal game of "Jolt 2 is lava". I would keep Swift as a role action tbh, especially if the reanimation itself keeps its 180s cooldown across all three.

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The removal of Swiftcast in such a scenario is required because it weakens Summoner's access to the Raise. The buff to Dualcast is to make up for this. Jolt 2 might be lava, but it still provides Dual Cast, which is +60 potency on Aero/Thunder, effectively the same as Swiftcasting Aero/Thunder over Jolt 2 minus the mana.

If we keep Swiftcast, then we run into the same problem that Summoner is the better for a once-in-a-while emergency raise.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The removal of Swiftcast in such a scenario is required because it weakens Summoner's access to the Raise. The buff to Dualcast is to make up for this. Jolt 2 might be lava, but it still provides Dual Cast, which is +60 potency on Aero/Thunder, effectively the same as Swiftcasting Aero/Thunder over Jolt 2 minus the mana.

If we keep Swiftcast, then we run into the same problem that Summoner is the better for a once-in-a-while emergency raise.

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Oh, I get what you mean with the Dualcast buff now. I could accept this kind of a change.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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The thing with removing Swiftcast but having a 10s Res but with varying effects depending on the caster using it just makes it really avoidable, and seems pointless to use it if you need to in the end.

You have both WHM and AST that have casting time boosting abilities (PoM and LS) which allows them if needed to pop off multiple rezzes in a short time. In that case any SMN isn't going to stand around for 10s at a DPS loss if someone else can do it quicker. Then you have BLM which again, would you really risk ruining your rotation just to rez one player, even if you can rebalance yourself with Triple Cast afterwards.

You know if RDM didn't have Dualcast then the insta-rez machine wouldn't be an issue. Perhaps that needs to be adjusted so that Verraise only works with Swift and not Dualcast. Least any rez would either only be every 60s or with big DPS reduction from hard casting.

No, she meant that it impacts each caster differently, see it's heavy impact for RDM since it's Dualcastable, but RDM has no innate MP recovery aside from Lucid Dreaming meaning it's turned into a more tactical choice as to when to use it. SMN has medium impact since they have Aetherflow, but miss out on several Ruin 3s, albeit that's not as big of a deal for them since they still do a fair amount of damage over that time. For BLM it's minimal impact since they essentially have infinite MP, but they would have to Swift (Assuming it was returned to BLM only) or Triplecast it not to tank their DPS pretty hard. And I think if Verraise was a unique spell with a 30 second cooldown that might do some good, but I've already said it a few times and don't want to sound like a broken record.

I like the Dualcast buff idea but I'm also toying with the idea of a stack sort of effect, something like this;

Rapid Cascade: Each unique spell you cast increases the damage of the next spell you cast by (1-3)% stacking up to (3-5) times for 5 (maybe 10?) seconds. Using a non damaging spell ends this effect.
Or have it stack when you cast a Black spell then a White spell or vice versa or a Red Spell (Jolt, Jolt 2, Impact) then either other color.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I like the Dualcast buff idea but I'm also toying with the idea of a stack sort of effect, something like this;

Rapid Cascade: Each unique spell you cast increases the damage of the next spell you cast by (1-3)% stacking up to (3-5) times for 5 (maybe 10?) seconds. Using a non damaging spell ends this effect.
Or have it stack when you cast a Black spell then a White spell or vice versa or a Red Spell (Jolt, Jolt 2, Impact) then either other color.

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I don't see much an issue with Red Mage's current gameflow. The only exception is that Impact really should have more than a filler role (Because that animation is so gorgeous). Ideally, if we wanted to shift and reward another gameplay Facet, it should be in Single Mana spenders. But that's a topic for another thread.

Well there's not an issue with it, there's just not much to it now, which is understandable given that it's only had a single games worth of development. I agree, best saved for a different thread.

Putting Raise into role actions probably wouldn't really pan out, as that wouldn't solve the issue of BLM having "infinite MP for raise", and that would only rob RDM/SMN of a different role pool slot that they would otherwise have right now. Remember, we really don't want BLM to Rez Dispense, so Umbral Ice + Triplecast Raise Raise Raise is pretty much exactly what we'd be trying to avoid.

I know I've said about a dozen times both in this thread and overall that BLM really should get a raise ability to balance the caster role, but I also agree with the opposition that it doesn't make a lot of sense for it to have the same "style" raise as the other jobs.

Kabooas proposal had a 180 second recast, that way nobody would be doing the dispensing.

There's no need to remove Swiftcast and there's no need to give BLM a Raise.

Verraise only needs adjustments to make it less powerful but still able to Raise people frequently and also quickly than others.
RDM would need some compensation by increasing their damage or increasing Embolden's effects because being a Raise dispenser is their only worth right now, or else it would just harm them even more.

BLM getting a Raise doesn't fix it and there's more creative ways to give it utility, preferrably without disturbing the BLM from doing damage.

Ah and here we have another person who didn't read the thread, although to be fair it is pretty long now. Gotta love the hurdur 'splosions people.

A recast ability off-gcd would not inhibit BLM's damage/uptime in any way, would balance the infinite MP issue, could help balance the caster role pool, and could be made so that it INCREASES BLM damage upon a successful Raise.

I wouldn't waste my time reading every single post of a 23-page thread. I'm sure nobody wouldn't.

Raise is not a necessity to caster DPS whatsoever and it won't actually balance the jobs. Raise is not an off-GCD ability. Raise increasing BLM's damage after being used not only is a lazy and uncreative band aid fix, but makes no sense either.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

A recast ability off-gcd would not inhibit BLM's damage/uptime in any way, would balance the infinite MP issue, could help balance the caster role pool, and could be made so that it INCREASES BLM damage upon a successful Raise.

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You are really picking at straws now. Just imagine it, a BLM asks another DPS to die so they can rez them and get the damage increase. No players life should have to be traded so another job can get a damage increase, but that's what would happen with this. Sounds like perfect way to increase your ff logs / parse data...

BLM needs an actual damage increase to current actions, not as a reward for raising the dead.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

You are really picking at straws now. Just imagine it, a BLM asks another DPS to die so they can rez them and get the damage increase. No players life should have to be traded so another job can get a damage increase, but that's what would happen with this. Sounds like perfect way to increase your ff logs / parse data...

BLM needs an actual damage increase to current actions, not as a reward for raising the dead.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The only hesitation I could see coming from SE's end is that if BLM is given the ability to "profit" from another player's death, it may be used for grief play or harassment in the duty finder (ex: healer allows someone to die deliberately so the BLM can use the raise and get the damage boost)

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He's considered this, actually.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

snip

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Thanks for providing that. But then it begs the question of why bring up rewards for rezzing again when clearly nothing will good would come out of it in the long run. We have trolls, greifers, bots and afkers already, I wouldn't appreciate anyone intending to die and staying dead waiting for BLM rez whilst the rest of the party is actually doing their job(s).

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Putting Raise into role actions probably wouldn't really pan out, as that wouldn't solve the issue of BLM having "infinite MP for raise", and that would only rob RDM/SMN of a different role pool slot that they would otherwise have right now. Remember, we really don't want BLM to Rez Dispense, so Umbral Ice + Triplecast Raise Raise Raise is pretty much exactly what we'd be trying to avoid.
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Theoretically speaking that might happen with a raise in the role action, realistically speaking though? Probably in the same boat as Mana shift, yoiu need to be both in umbral and with triple ready to pull off something like that, not to mention that in that way you would be screwed in a movement scenario later, so wouldn't call it a win/win scenario.
Also frankly SMN has infinite MP so the eventuality of a job having high dmg infinite resource raise is already a thing to the point you are still gonna prefer him over BLM even with him having access to a normal raise

edit: I mean in that eventuality you are sacrificing a lot for the party while SMN really doesn't sacrifices that much right now

Off-GCD 180s recast ability would prevent spamming it, and the player who is raised still would get Weakness/Brink, so that might be incentive enough not to sac/grief deliberately for it. Asking a player to die on purpose, particularly in the duty finder, would get you laughed at.

The job needs the option because the other two casters have the option. Indisputably, BLM is the weakest choice of caster to bring for your group for endgame/progression, and it's not even the best choice to bring for things like dungeons and 24 mans. It needs to be able to compete for the spot, and part of that is balancing the role so that all three jobs have access to raise, not just two of the three jobs. The mere fact that BLM does not have access to a raise ability is just another reason why we are currently in #deleteBLM meta right now, so we need a creative way to fix it.


...See how he is so quick to say "Raise is not an off-GCD ability"? And why does it have to continue to be that way? Why can't they design something new? There CAN be an off-GCD raise, there just isn't currently. Kinda like how Empyreal Arrow is an off-GCD GCD. The fact that you (and apparently every other hurdur 'splosions BLM) can't wrap your mind around that is staggering (no offense), including yoship himself, the supposed babby-daddy of the job who "would never let anything bad happen to his pet class" who, when asked during a live letter interview why BLM wouldn't get raise said "...It's a Black Mage". Facepalm so hard. Acknowledge that the balance is off; they obviously have no intention to remove Verraise and Resurrection from RDM and SMN, therefore, BLM needs to compete.

@Remedi Yes, and neither does RDM, really. One GCD worth of filler damage. This is another reason why the off-GCD ability makes more sense than the standard Raise GCD.

My point was that we already have a infinite MP caster having access to raising, there's no need to really have any concerns about making an intricate 3 min CD raise for BLM because of possible spam reasons.
It's simply too much works for something they can simply put in the role action and call it a day (while doing the same thing for healers)especially when we have more important matters to attend to.

I still think that they should rebalance it by removing it or really moderate it, but if we really agree to add it there's no point in making extreme leaps of imagination when we can have something simple

I mean SMN does have "infinite" MP for its current rotation but it still couldn't raise back to back an infinite number of times like BLM in Umbral could, because it wouldn't regen the MP back faster than it could spend it on the raises but BLM could, as long as it can upkeep the Umbral.

And really, we don't WANT simple. A GCD raise that demands Swiftcast and ruining your Astral MP table or switching immediately to Umbral not only sounds horrible due to the nature of BLM's rotation, but it's exactly what they're shying away from. The standard raise that we have in the game right now is definitely construed as white/arcane magic, and it's very true that said magic has no business being in a Black Mage's kit. As much as I don't like having to be the one forced to do it, Rez Dispenser(tm) is a design that both the devs and the players apparently like, so I don't foresee it being removed from RDM, and it's lasted on SMN/ACN this long, sooooo yep.

BLM re-balancing in general IS "the important matter to attend to", and this is a part of it, so I see no issue with "dwelling" on it. The role needs a rebalance, and the raise dilemma is a part of it.

Yes BLM can in theory ress an infinite number of times in umbral, but it needs to sacrifice resources to combat movements in order to do it which might be a problem later, not to mention the need of beign in umbral AND the target loss, if you ppl shun mana shift from BLM because these very reasons by saying that we are the actually worst users of that despite the infinite MP I don't see why it shouldn't be the same thing here.
This is would be a balanced situation because you would have the option but it wouldn't come without setbacks for you.

That's why I say it works and since it's simple it shouldn't take much time off them.
I understand ppl wanting things to be complex so that they can have depths, but I'll tell the best mehcanics in the game are those that works and sometimes keep it simple makes them works the best.

Also frankly the only reason SMN has access to raise is because SCH had to have it while for RDM it's because it's a staple white magic that they had access to and they wanted to recreate the feeling of it, I wouldn't burn my hand for them giving ress to casters because they like the idea since honestly they had no thought on the raise repercussion when they reduced R3 MP cost at all (especially since they didn't foresee the effect on dissipation when they reduced summon MP cost)

Tbh I'm still partly sure ppl are not thinking about raise in the right way and not seeing the repercussions it has on gameplay, especially how objectively broken dualcast raise can be, hopefully they'll realize the problem unless we want instant wipe mechanics to creep even to autoattacks

I mean I was preaching about Rez Dispenser(tm) being insane at the beginning of 4.0, to be sure, but what's MORE insane is that RDM has access to it and BLM gets nothing at all, and like you said now that they adjusted SMN's MP dump, losing 130 potency on SMN isn't the end of the world. We're really just arguing in circles about it, at this point, but I really do think they are much less likely to remove it than they are to give in and add a raise ability on BLM.


I just don't want to be "required" to prog on RDM in 4.2 man. Granted I'll probably just do it on SMN over RDM anyway if things stay the way they are, but as I said before, let the BLMs be BLMs and let the RDMs be RDMs. No one should have to play a job they don't like, and the caster role is basically expected to be able to spot raise if possible at this point, so BLM needs to be able to compete on that front (call me a broken record again).

If you're the raid leader and you're trying to set up your comp, are you really looking for a Black Mage to fill the caster slot? ESPECIALLY if you already have a weeb class (affectionately named, which is like everyone and their brother during the weeb expac)? No, you're going to look and say "Ok, so BLM can bring damage but SMN damage is actually stronger/just as strong, AND devotion+radiant shield increases our damage for the party and the 5 physical damage users (respectively), plus they can spot raise if both healers die or are occupied (Almagest ticks, etc). RDM might be pretty weak but it can increase our entire party damage even more (or it should be able to), and it can raise/spot vercure basically anytime it wants with basically no cost at all. Besides, we already have a weeb class for the raw damage, and weeb class damage is even stronger anyway." It literally makes no logical sense to take BLM in the slot in any way shape or form.

give blm a "dark" rez (low cast time 2.0-1.75 sec and lowish mp cost, but can not be swiftcasted) with RNG (!)..., so it will only be asked for from the healers if absolutely needed...

RNG: blm dark rez either A) gives the rezed a 20% damage increase + takes 20% more damage for 15 sec
OR B) reduces the rezed damage by 20% but buffs its overall defense by 20% for 15 sec

(random if the rezed gets A) or B), but after the 15 sec buff/debuff, weakness continues for the remaining 45 sec)

that way, its a risk, that healers / the group might want to take or not ask the blm to rez)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I mean I was preaching about Rez Dispenser(tm) being insane at the beginning of 4.0, to be sure, but what's MORE insane is that RDM has access to it and BLM gets nothing at all, and like you said now that they adjusted SMN's MP dump, losing 130 potency on SMN isn't the end of the world. We're really just arguing in circles about it, at this point, but I really do think they are much less likely to remove it than they are to give in and add a raise ability on BLM.

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Ye, we simply have a different way on how to solve the conundrum, in the end I want it gone because it trivializes mechanics too much while you want it applied to all casters to balance them out

Indeed, but what you consider to be "trivializing" is rather conservative, in my opinion. Weakness is still very taxing, and although fights are more recoverable due to more prevalence of raising and MP management etc, not to mention the aforementioned paradigm shift from Titan/Leviathan days to Sophia/Ozma days, I don't see it as "trivializing" unless damage numbers are still almost as high and speeds are still almost as fast (which they really aren't). The actual clearing of content should be a given (save for Ultimate), so in my eyes it "trivializes" nothing.

The only exception here is as I said before when sacrifice strats are used (Compressed Water, Royal Pentacle). THIS is absolutely a trivialization of mechanics, make no mistake, but there needs to be another way to address this.

Put it this way, you can resurrect some1 with healers or SMN once every minute, while on RDM virtually everytime some1 dies to a mechanic can be resurrected, this makes death more of a nuisance than a punishment.
Titan EX (and hm) taught players how to be better at the game and it wasn't just beign pushed out of bonds, you had very low chance of recovery even with diying to other mechanics. It taught you to be a better player and was essentially a game changer because up till there you never had situations like that.
You mention the paradigm shift of Sophia and Ozma and tbh it can be alright since they are mostly midcore content and pugged by most which means ppl are less reactive, but on savage and above I don't think is really needed (or at least I would keep using deathwalls on the final boss, since you know he's the end). I don't think more safety net were needed in the game however than that, as I said death should be a punishment and not a minor incovinience, you stood in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid the price and for that the entire group has to suffer, that is a good lesson for everyone.

The reason I say it trivializes content is that you risk to run in a direction where either a failed mechanic kills the entire raid or 3/4 of it or you can brute force the fight with chain ress, honestly after lucrezia said that they were able to raise 20 times in a fight and brute force the mechanics to see more of ultimate I couldn't stop thinking that it was just too much and something has to be done, frankly speaking since most ppl believe that you have to bring a RDM for the raises it kinda validates my concerns as such in my opinion this possibility should be done away or changed to be less impactful on gameplay.

edit:Compressed water and royal pentacle are also a failure on the players part since they should have told SE to fix them, If ppl wants PTR they should also be objective and be ready to point out unintended ways to deal with a fight, while SE should be less lenient when this tings happens

edit2: this is also not considering the fact that essentially they have made a highly anticipated versatile job into a rez dispenser which is shameful tbh

A combination of players complaining that content is too hard and complaining that content is too easy has certainly gotten us collectively into some sticky situations (including but not limited to the "worsening" of the playerbase at large), no doubt about that. And you're right it should have been SE's responsibility to address things like Compressed Water and Royal Pentacle. Thankfully we haven't seen any real sac strats yet in 4.x, so let's bring that back up when it happens.



To put it as simply as possible, you're of the mindset that recovery is too valuable therefore it should be nerfed, and I'm of the mindset that recovery is too valuable therefore it should be balanced. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance, but it is apparent that Square Enix does, so we should be treading accordingly.


Players/groups are GOING to bring recovery strats if they are available, particularly in progression, period. So if they are available, they should be balanced for the job (my mindset), and if they are not available, then it makes no difference (your mindset). Currently, they are available (and it doesn't look like SE intends to change that), so they should be balanced for the role, and I think SE should be focusing on that (if only grudgingly).

Well not quite, I think that too much recovery is bad and we are in that kind of spectrum right now, in my opinion HW was more balanced because it was useful but you could prog without it just fine, now seems to be mandatory to as said brute force the fight.
I have no problem with some recovery beign in the game, for example LB3 healer is fine even though it's essentially a second chance for the group because you cannot spam it and it requires charging, but dualcast raise can essentially be traslated to:
Every time some1 dies in the party you can resurrect him.
That's why I say it's too much, I know that realistically it's not that in a fight but truly that how you can translate dualcast raise in a possible scenario, it doesn't happen this way with healer and/or SMN raises and that is wat creating the imbalance

In HW there was no Rez Dispenser(tm) there was only SMN which had to sacrifice a pretty significant amount of MP that could have been used for Ruin III. That all shifted when they decided to introduce our favorite candy holder.

I had originally proposed that the Dualcast trait just not work with Verraise and Vercure, and then make Verraise the same MP cost and cast time as the other raise spells. However, now that they removed SMN MP dump and STILL haven't changed Dualcast, it makes more sense to just concede the option to BLM, preferably with a damage increase-style twist.

Dying was also more punishing for a greater part of HW, having two of the three raid tiers, being Gordias and Midas, having mechanics and DPS checks punishing you if you had some deaths here and there. While Creator had almost no death punishment we then got Deltascape as Stormblood's first raid tier. On top of being a highly forgiving raid just like it's predecessor we also got the introduction of a job that can rapid fire raises, something we never had before.

Even on the fact weakness is now a bigger of a burden for damage, the combination of the removal of HP penalty plus raise mage plus forgiving raid mechanics all made this mentality that having a DPS job to raise is amazing... when it really isn't. It's just something neat for progression that RDM can abuse on. Not that but RDM's already low DPS suffers a lot from it, something mentioned at the first couple pages of this thread. RDM is a popular job, but its popularity was solidified by all of this, having a physical buff (even if it's weak) that was overhyped before it's launch and overall people wanting it since ARR.

It's not something you can fix giving a Raise for a job that has no meaning on having it like BLM. SMN is not being played because they can raise, they're being played simply by being the best mage right now. They on top of that happen to have Raise. Once you have a fight that Raising won't let you push throught it (hi Ultimate) that ability seems just to be there instead as a small extra help instead of an important part of progression like it was on Deltascape for many groups.