A test server that they could invite "top players" to test new jobs and give feedback before changes are set in stone would be really nice. They did that event where they invited all the YouTubers to try out the 4.0 jobs at that one expo, if they just had a test server for a cross section of the playerbase it would alleviate a HUGE amount of headache.
Developers might be able to run tests and do math, but only players who play the game consistently at a high level can really describe the "feel" of a class, and perhaps more importantly, how the synergy develops into the meta. I don't see why SE is so opposed to opening up in this vein.
Black Mage
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10-13-2017, 05:04 AMLlugen
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10-13-2017, 06:05 AMRemediAnd to be fair this game has a much better balance than others in generalQuote:
Originally Posted by Wyti
Or maybe I just experienced much worse in general
@Llugen: Even if they did, they'll probably recruit mostly japanese players, which will lead the community to whine about them listening only to japanese players.
Regardless to give proper feedback ppl would need to understand what is the vision behind some changes, something that not many do, only then you can express some criticism, also players need to have the integrity to actually identify some possible exploits or uintended way for the class to be played and report it. Not so sure that many are capable of that -
10-13-2017, 06:19 AMIllyriaKnotfred
Lmao. What a joke. That's all the data thats needed, this is all old content, people know the fights. If summoners numbers are that high things already need to change.
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10-13-2017, 07:10 AMOgruMogru
I kinda feel like losing Raging strikes is at the heart of some of the problems we're having. Every other class has something in their kit to block that gap except for BLm and on top of that we're actively discluded from one of those [embolden] which still feels like the biggest intentional fuck you. Transpose desperately needs a shorter cooldown. A 1 second window every 13 seconds is horrible to deal with on top of the additional punishment of reduced stacks and longer cast times it yields. We're forced to hobble ourselves to deal with mechanics everyone else can manage with little disruption. Would umbral hearts be more effective if instead of granting free casts it granted 3 instant fire 1's? How about that troublesome Enochian button which, in an ideal world, we would only need to use once per fight? How about we get some kind of small target's magic resist down stack with each successful enochian [as in that button, not the refreshing of astral and umbral] reapplication? Actually make that button useful again every 30 seconds instead of it just sitting there.
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10-13-2017, 08:09 AMNeelapls... this is absolutly the worst argument ever you can say facing a smn - it's always us who get fucked up with every expansion in the first place - looking over to you whos cls is always supirior because of reasons, same reasons will solve your "issues" near by. Blm never had a real bad time/spot - just relax Yoshi is comin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
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10-13-2017, 10:11 AMBlackcatChen
>Blm never had a real bad time/spot - just relax Yoshi is comin'.
BLM has been relatively weak since 3.3. -
10-13-2017, 10:39 AMGalvuu
Not gonna read through it all, but I saw some talk about the Raise debate (again).
I'm not going to explain why this contradicts the job identity or the lore (and it does).
This would be a silly bandaid fix that fixes nothing.
Think where the raise has the most value- that's right, progression. It can salvage a bad pull and allow you to practice/see/figure out new mechanics. Sure, it has sporadic value if a healer dies to whatever mechanic, but usually you don't rely on dps rezing during progression (you generally won't be mana starved and it's best to have a healer do it to push phases and the like).
This is intrinsically at odds with how Black Mage functions on a fundamental level- to be executed perfectly, Black Mage requires deep knowledge of the fight and its timings and perfect cd alignment with key mechanics.
Black Mage, by design, is a bad job for progression. So if you try to fix the lack of utility with a tool for progression in a job that's naturally bad at that, you fix nothing. Why exactly aren't you taking RDM in progression?
Or better yet, the hyper mobile, infinite-mp, higher dps SMN?
You won't. You won't take them. If progression performance is a concern and you need the dps rez, you take either RDM or SMN over BLM for progression.
This job has to shine in the scenario it's designed to shine on- when you've mastered the fight.
If this is achieved by giving it synergistic offensive utility or pumping up the raw damage numbers, I don't know, but the rez is not going to cut it.
Further, I think the "selfish" dps design of SAM and BLM is quite interesting, but SE always chickens out on giving these job the actual large numbers they need (especially BLM).
Further, most buffs are now raid wide. There's a scarcity of strong, single target buffs (Dragon's Eye and... that's it now, actually). Having a few of these on top of the aoe ones would benefit this type of high single target dps job.
These jobs are pieces of artillery (especially BLM)- it's a clunky job that you point at something, so the return must be that the target explodes.
And no, single target Balance does not count, that is never ever going to outdps the raid contribution of an aoe Balance on a good party when used on a single target, neither enhanced nor extended.
I'm pretty sure SMN is really strong right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
You (and most SMNs) might dislike how it plays, but that doesn't change the fact it's strong. You either embrace the change or... dunno.
When BLM changed in HW, there was a lot of backlash (cliunky, restrictive, too hard, not simple, tight timers). Some of those complaints were valid, but I did grow to absolutely love it. It just took time.
Or try something else, dunno. But it marginally irks me that you got a lot of attention and come here to rail on us x) -
10-13-2017, 11:15 AMGrimoire-M
If BLMs ever get a raise, SE had better make it a self-only raise that automatically puts you at full HP/MP in AF3 & Enochian on a 15m cooldown, with the stipulation that if you drop Enochian again, you die. That's some selfish utility, but selfish utility is still utility, and makes them better in prog, where one of their few advantages is that they have the least punishment for death. Leylines is the only significant CD that they can lose, after all. If you lose triple-cast it needed to be popped earlier, and whatever needed it has already killed you.
Other than that, SMN needs numbers nerfs and QoL buffs. BRD/MCH need the same 5% piercing debuff DRG has (to eliminate that dependency rather than because they need damage buffs), as well as reduced emnity for self instead of halving emnity on Tactician/Refresh. BLM needs a slight dps boost to make up for their lack of utility. Melee wise NIN needs a TA nerf, DRG is fine, MNK needs Brotherhood to affect casters, and SAM is fine cause I don't know if it needs anything given the rest happens. NIN's aggro advantages add the least potency over a fight, so they are fine as is. -
10-13-2017, 11:27 AMGospelVhaeI called it, but this is pretty absurd actually. Guess we're actually back to the status quo that is 3.2Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastelli
What a game -
10-13-2017, 12:42 PMLlugenAnother dollar towards my sub, we found another person who just can't seem to muster the imagination to realize that a balanced game requires more than "it's not in the lore".Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvuu
I don't propose raise on BLM because it needs to be a rez dispenser (which you would know if you'd read my proposal for how I'd implement it), or even because I think that will somehow magically fix all of its problems, but simply because it could then bring that option to the table just like every single other disciple of magic does. Furthermore, if you want to start a lore argument, why DOESN'T Paladin have raise? It is absolutely in its lore, that and lay on hands. Give please.
And to answer your question, because I don't want to have to play a job that I don't want to have to play "for progression's sake". That also flies directly against "any class comp can do any content" that SE preaches so hard. Some classes may be better for progression than others, this is natural, but one class being SO OBVIOUSLY PAINFULLY BAD for progression is unacceptable. All these factors add together into why BLM is an awful choice to bring into raid, the most glaring of which currently is the class's failure to live up to its supposed role (raw damage as utility). -
10-13-2017, 05:54 PMRemediI mean it could come out of hot shot/straight shot OR they could rempove Heavy trust and making disembowel grant the HT buffQuote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
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10-13-2017, 07:18 PMAlexaliburMore like ALL casters have been relatively weak since 3.3, or just the fact that BRD/MCH were far stronger than everyone else that rendered already average classes useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackcatChen
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10-13-2017, 07:26 PMLelila38Could you please stop regarding everything I say as a personal insult to your Smn pride? I wasn't even referring to Smn, I explicitly stated that the new classes were intentionally overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
Thank you for saying what you did about Raging Strikes, Embolden and Enochian, you're summing up my feelings on if quite nicely. I wish I could like your post twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
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10-13-2017, 08:35 PMShiroedont agree, Bliz IV is a dps lose and needs fixing from the ground upQuote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
besides that, imo T3 should give the magic vulnerability... (unless they fix BIV, so it makes sense to use it either way) -
10-13-2017, 08:43 PMLastelliWhat do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
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10-13-2017, 10:43 PMLlugenQuote:
Originally Posted by Lastelli
^
I'm confused, I say that magic vuln should be on Blizzard IV BECAUSE it needs reworking, so that would be part of the rework. Additionally, each Umbral Heart should give increased damage to whichever fire spell utilizes it by a percentage, like 5% or even 10% if you wish.
Putting it on Thunder III would only increase the necessity to rely on thundercloud procs, which are good of course but you don't always get them. This is partially why I think the thunder dot could be additive instead of refreshing to 24. To illustrate, this would mean I could use Sharpcast Thunder III and use the proc right off the bat to get 48 seconds of thunder up and ticking, and any subsequent thunderclouds would add to that timer, capping at 60 seconds (so using any additional thunderclouds above 46 seconds would be a small waste).
In case this reply wasn't already long enough, I'd like to point out that since 3.0 launched, BLM has lost a significant amount of mobility. In 2.x, you can rely on procs to move and swiftcast if you have to at pretty regular intervals, and you aren't locked in by any ley lines. Since 3.0, your damage comes from standing still and hardcasting Fire IV, which is fine, but that is where mobility issues arise single target (obviously). A tweak/update to firestarter where you could firestart Fire IV or Fire III would be nice, or combo into IV from a III. It could also be interesting if they applied a similar trait to Thunder like is currently in PVP where if you do enough damage/casts to a target with the dot, it gives you a thunder ready proc regardless of the 10% per tick chance.
I know you blokes want the job to be a "turret class" but a little more mobility would go a long way into improving the class's damage without even requiring any other adjustments (which it definitely still needs). -
10-13-2017, 10:45 PMSfiaPersonally, I feel like none of these actually address the issue. BRD/MCH provide too much damage. saying they need to provide their own piercing debuff changes nothing, and you would STILL bring a bard and a machinist.They are too strong in their current form in terms of both offense AND defense. The same goes for ninja, trick attack needs significant changes, threat tools need to not be an exclusive utility. DRG also provides a lot, it's not on the same level of absurdity of NIN/BRD/MCH but it is very powerful and would still be desired even if ranged physical was very weak. Summoner is now approaching this level of strength as well with the recent buffs. And monk is not very far behind in terms of damage contribution while also being very strong in prog with fists/riddle of earth and mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
So we have 4 very strong jobs, and monk which depending on your composition can also be on this higher tier of contribution.
That leaves SAM/RDM/BLM.
Nerfing 5 of the 8 dps classes to create balance for 3 could be done, however it seems to me like bringing the contributions of the 3 to be in line with the others is a much more simple approach.
Having played a lot of RDM, I actually feel it does not need much in the way of changes. It is very good at what it does, and has a strong identity as a safe and easy prog slot.If any change was to be made, I would recommend bringing it's personal dps up a very small amount, but this would not make or break the class, nor change its viability in endgame. Perfect balance is unlikely to ever be achieved between 8 jobs, so having niche jobs which excel so clearly in areas is a great way to make the job of total balance easier.
Samurai needs more damage. Whether this is through personal dps, or raid utility it doesn't matter, the result would be the same - providing more DPS to your team. Currently it is very easy to perform to a decent level on, which goes to show how well the dev team has designed this class with their new philosophy (of bringing the skill floor down) in mind. Red mage is good in this regard also. Samurai is decent in prog because of it's low skill floor, however monk still outshines it in this regard. I'm not a melee main so I wouldn't want to suggest how to best fix these problems as I am not the best person to do so.
And that leaves Black Mage.
Damage is too low. With no contributions to other peoples damage, all you provide is what you hit the boss with, and that needs to go up SIGNIFICANTLY. It is a bad situation to be in when a 10% total damage increase would still not solidify your position in a team looking to optimize.
It is important to point out that from a pure damage perspective, BLM is below SAM yet provides no utility advantage over it and is more immobile. It is the WORST dps class - not just the worst caster and it is important to realize that the utility jobs (SMN/DRG/MNK/NIN/BRD/MCH) outpace black mage damage contributions often in raw dps ALONE, and if not then their utility pushes them to vastly exceed what a BLM can provide. The other DPS carry (SAM) is more mobile AND does more DPS - so even if NIN/BRD get nerfed, it would require every other DPS class to be nerfed in order for BLM to be competitive. This is the unique problem of a class who provides nothing to the team but damage.
Defensive and resource utility is non existent.
We can directly compare black mage to other roles competing for its slot right now. This is NOT to say these jobs should lose their ability in these regards, it is simply to show that BLM does not have nearly as much to offer as almost every other class in the game.
We are the worst caster to use manashift. We have 1 time in our rotation where we can use it (and only under a randomly generated proc) without a mild-significant dps loss. Compare this to SMN/RDM being able to freely weave this at no loss now.
Compare Manashift to Refresh, 3000MP to one target or over 6000MP to all party members. A complete no brainer.
Addle and apocatastasis now have to be either weaved with procs or instant cast abilities (of which we have limited and cannot be relied upon) or you lose dps. Compared to SMN/RDM, they can do this freely at any time with no loss.
Pallisade is the ranged equivalent to apocatastasis, providing equal utility to apoc, which can be used at no loss to the ranged user.
Dismantle is a significantly stronger addle. Troubadour has the benefit of not requiring a target, and Natures Minne is just icing on the cake.
And lastly is the issue of raising. I personally have no opinion on whether black mage should be able to have a raise, however after taking away a lot of unique utility (namely apoc) through the homogenization of the caster role, I find it very odd that no recompense was given to their power budget.
Now, this is completely disregarding other issues that BLMs face (mobility, punishment for error, the burden of cast bars etc.) and it is clear as day that the job simply... lacks. There isn't enough to it, and I am starting to sympathize with people who are simply locking the class out of party finder options.
In my initial post I shied away from talking about changes I would like to see and believe would be healthy for the class and balance as a whole, however I'll get a little bit into that now.
There are a few easy fixes which, when combined, could solve the problem of using apoc and addle specifically, with benefits to manashift usage (although not completely solved) without affecting the damage of the class.
Firstly is to make foul instant cast, giving us an actual on demand mobility/weaving spell at no cost to our own damage.
The problem with an instant cast foul used for weaving is that you will run into MP issues when in umbral ice (MUST blizzard4 first and then you risk not enough MP after a thunder 3 when returning to astral fire to complete your rotation). So to remedy this, I would like thunder 3 to be reduced to the MP cost of blizzard 4 in umbral ice3, or better yet, completely remove mp costs from blizzard4 and thunder 3 while in umbral ice 3.
Convert is currently an awful CD, an outdated remnant of pairing it with raging strikes. A 3 minute CD with an absurdly low value (compare this to Battle Litany, Battle Voice which also share this window) and cannot be reliably used due to the HP cost.
By making this skill useful, we can also address a key issue with BLM damage - unreliability during burst windows.
By making convert into a reliable bursting tool, we can fix the anti-synergy with other classes lowering the discrepancy in damage which we have no control over.
My personal idea for this ability is to put it on a 120s CD, refill MP to full and grant astral fire 3. This means trick atack/chain stratagem/hypercharge buff windows can be reliably hit with powerful spells, regardless of where you are in rotation, and would still align with BLM's current on-the-fly thinking playstyle.
These changes would be a start for a more usable black mage. They certainly wouldn't address all the issues they have and I believe further tweaking would be needed but these are a couple of huge problems existing with easy solutions. -
10-13-2017, 11:06 PMLlugenQuote:
Originally Posted by Sfia
So much this. I tried to make a post like this like two months ago and everyone laughed and said they LIKED their "turret DPS", which blew my mind.
If it were up to me at this point, I would get rid of Convert completely and rename it Indulge, gives the same amount of MP but does not affect your HP and just make it 60 seconds recast. That way it could be up every time your sharpcast is up for fire and every other ley lines (and by your 2 minute logic, it would be up for each of those too)
Making foul instant cast would be great for emergency movement, this is another thing I suggested a while back. I think Foul should be stronger in general for what it does, perhaps each usage of the skill increases the potency of it by 10% up to double potency if you didn't lose astral/umbral that whole time.
I'd also love to see a BLM "meditate" so you can hold your astral/umbral static sort of like SAM does with the Kenki gauge, which would help greatly with the ONE SINGLE SECOND window to juggle with Transpose.
Recast on Aetherial Manipulation should be reduced to 20s or even 15 (or even 10 if they REALLY want BLM to focus less on having to physically walk), and while they're at it, they should consider having Between the Lines move the Ley Lines TO the caster, instead of the caster to the Ley Lines.
All of these suggestions plus some of the other ones I made a few pages back would go a long way and would be a lot more rewarding than just "oh here's Fire/Blizzard IV back to 280 potency glhf", and even that probably still wouldn't be enough.
Last but not least, no matter how strong a "selfish" DPS is, party utility of some kind will almost ALWAYS be superior in a party. Utility IS damage, just not YOUR damage. With this in mind, the mindset of "raw damage as utility" is staggeringly flawed.
tl;dr? Here's a list of potential suggestions:
"Buffs" and Quality of Life
-Increase Astral/Umbral timer to 15s
-Implement a "meditation" skill allowing the BLM to hold the Astral/Umbral timer static while standing still (for downtime)
-Thunder refreshes current Astral/Umbral timer (including Thundercloud)
-Every time a Thundercloud proc occurs (not every use of the proc, just every proc), the Polyglot timer gains 5 seconds
-Foul refreshes current Astral/Umbral timer
-Scathe costs zero MP and refreshes current Astral/Umbral timer
-Durations of Thundercloud and Firestarter procs extended to 30 seconds
-Foul made instant cast
-Each time the Polyglot timer completes, the next Foul will increase by 10% damage up to 100% damage increase (after 5 minutes of continuous Astral/Umbral juggling)
-Zero MP cost for all spells under Umbral Ice
-Increase damage of all spells in Astral Fire regardless of whether they are fire spells (Thunderclouds, Foul)
-Thunder III timer increased to 27 seconds, or 30
-Thunder applications are additive up to 60 seconds (vs. currently they simply refresh)
-Firestarter trait to work with Fire IV
-Firestarter "combo" from free Fire III to free Fire IV
-The expenditure of an Umbral Heart results in +10% damage from the spell which used the heart (or 15% or even higher, if you wish)
-Fire I using an Umbral Heart is instant cast and guarantees a Firestarter proc
-Aetherial Manipulation recast reduced to 15s (or 10)
-Between the Lines brings Ley Lines to the BLM rather than vise-versa, or a new skill that does that
-While standing in Ley Lines, the caster is rendered immune to esuna-able status disorders, 20% incoming damage reduction, and cannot be interrupted (or some combination thereof)
-Convert changed to 90 seconds recast, or changed to Indulge: 60 seconds recast, no longer costs HP but gives 30% MP.
-Convert stays at 180s recast and gives you back full MP bar and refreshes Astral Fire III, and potentially even gives you a free Firestarter and Thundercloud proc
-Or.... do the boring thing and increase potency of Fire IV/Blizzard IV to 280, or buff Enochian to 20% magic damage etc etc
Potential Utility
-Consider free off-gcd 180s recast Raise skill
-Consider 180s recast buff that extrapolates Ley Lines to party-wide speed buff
-Blizzard IV gives +10% Magic Vulnerability Up for 45 seconds
-Consider Mana Channeling, 120s recast tether to player that transfers MP over 5-9 seconds (for downtime)
-Consider a Dragon Sight-style tether as a BLM buff 10% to damage, 5% to target's damage
-Consider making Enochian give +2% direct hit or crit or speed similar to BRD being under song -
10-13-2017, 11:40 PMBlackcatChen
You forgot the most boring change of all they could do.
Enhanced Enochian is now +20% instead of +10%. -
10-13-2017, 11:43 PMLastelli
We only need one small fix to solve a lot of problems. They should remove disembowel debuff and balance DRG, BRD and MCH as necessary, considering both their personal dps and party support skills. Right now, ranged dps are a big issue since their personal dps is very high when a DRG's in the party, but they also contribute to rDPS with their support skills by quite a lot. As long as the DRG-ranged dps synergy will remain as it is, it will be impossible to achieve jobs balance.
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10-13-2017, 11:48 PMRemedi
This patch they changed shake it off AND tribind, yet we are still dealing with freeze beign totally useless or scathe nigh useless and you llugen have given a valid idea on how to improve it.
Honestly I don't agree with all the proposed changes in the lists but it's something to work with, also I don't think you mean to add them all
edit: What if umbral hearts also allow you to cast astral fire spells with the speed buff you get from beign in umbral? -
10-14-2017, 12:13 AMGalvuuYou're missing the point. Let me make it clearer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Due to its inherent design, Black Mage will always be one of the worst (if not the worst) job in this game for progression.
Even if we had a rez with no cooldown, this wouldn't change (and what, you're gonna sacrifice one of your mobility tools to rez? What if you can't wait until UI, gonna got your AF phase and tank your dps?). SMN and RDM would still be better at rezzing, would still be more mobile and likely much better in progression.
As things are now, you can progress with BLM. You're on the back foot and need to put in extra work, but it can be done, and has been done.
To make this job a good candidate for progression, you need a lot of changes, some of which are fundamental changes to how BLM plays. If we go down this path, it'll take far too long, and it's not even that likely that it'll turn out well (SMN had a lot of deep changes that initially backfired so...).
Your alternative is accept that the job is suboptimal for progression and turn towards other things it can bring- damage, making it a good candidate for efficient farming/speedkilling once content is past progression.
This is much easier to achieve. You pump its numbers, or you give it synergistic offensive utility- or both.
It's easy to return the potency lost on the IV spells, it's easy to buff other spells, it's easy to extend T3 duration, it's easy to make Enochian 20% damage like Ofillomen said and it's also an interesting idea to tack a magic vuln onto B4 (which will also push caster-centric comps into the spotlight, which hasn't happened since what, 1.X when people stacked BLM?).
A raw single target dps that can compete with the other dpsers is also a less explored design space. SAM was looking ok in 4.0 before they decided to start buffing BRD/MCH/DRG out of control as usual.
This is why, imho, you just can't make this job work competitively for bleeding edge progression. The fact you need to predict mechanics in advance to stay put as often as possible or align your cds perfectly with troublesome mechanics (this on top of a layer or rng that makes your AF/UI cycles oscillate with up to 8s of variance in their duration) and the fact that you often rely on your team (be it for Aetherial or to stay god knows where so you can stay put, potentially forcing healers to adjust their positions) means that BLM is always iffy for progression- possible to pull it off, but harder and more time consuming. Rez or no rez, this won't change. So just go down the easier route of increasing its damage potential. That's what I was getting at.
This is only conditionally true, and we're talking a ~1.6pps difference which results in less than 1% dps. The 5xF4 AF cycle that bypasses B4 can only be used if you have 5seconds on your Foul clock with a Foul charge and get a TC proc or an instant tick going into UI. If these conditions are met, you can bypass B4 and go into a 5xF4 AF which nets you the discussed 1% dps gain. This is extreme min/maxing, and you're still going to use B4 like 90% of the time to play optimally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
Understand that a 1.6pps gain is very minimal, and if you time something wrong and go into UI with 0 mana and no Foul/TC proc, it takes literally less than half a second waiting for the mana tick to make this strategy a dps loss. In doubt, it's always better to be conservative and use B4. Some mechanics (Forced March in O3 and hysteria in O4) will gradually accrue Foul clock time and allow you to do this three or four times, but it's actually not significant as things stand. -
10-14-2017, 12:24 AMLlugen
Did... did you even read my post? Why are you obsessing so hard over raise? I mentioned it once in a veritable mountain of suggestions, and in case you didn’t pay attention yet again, my proposal is for it to be off GCD and cost nothing. This would NOT affect its output at all outside of clipping if you aren’t smart about it.
BLM perhaps should be tough for progression but right now it’s just TOO far behind, and that needs addressing. -
10-14-2017, 12:37 AMGalvuuI'm responding to a post a few pages back, not the last one. And the idea is about progression in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
It's not like you can't progress with BLM, which is what you're making it sound like. I did it. It was hard, but feasible.
What I'm stating is that you need to change the job deeply to make it much better at progression.
If Ultimate is as hard as Gordias was on 3.0, the value of raw dps is also heightened due to tighter checks, so it's just better to look towards raising it's damage potential (single or synergistic) to make it better at killing things fast.
But I did read your most recent post, and your very suggestions highlight all of this. Many of them are pretty extreme, and most don't even heighten the damage potential of BLM. Many of them make no difference. For instance, Convert isn't a considerably dps gain at all now. Its power was the synergy with Raging Srikes, that we lost. Spells being free in UI also does nothing, because you're always going to cast the same spells in UI (B4/T3/Foul) and you don't have mana issues with these now. You don't need a stasis to keep AF/UI in downtime because you can already transpose to get Foul ticking. Dragging the Ley Lines towards you is much worse than what current Between the Lines does, as having it on a certain location helps you completely evade some mechanics with one magic button. Anything that extends timers just makes the job easier to play, and not actually stronger when executed perfectly. Free F4 doesn't extend the overall AF timer. There's other stuff, but most of these are so "out there"- why not something simple like adjusting the numbers and getting the magic vulnerability only? (Which admittedly you do have there, amidst a sea of... "questionable" suggestions). -
10-14-2017, 01:54 AMzuzu-bq
Unless the stars align and you can do one specific thing inside a really specific scenario, Blizzard IV is not a dps loss so be careful assuming it just is. Doesn't mean Blizzard IV and Umbral Hearts aren't a bad mechanic, because they are. It barely rewards you anything while making your rotation tighter inside buff timings.
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10-14-2017, 02:00 AMLlugen
Just because you have no imagination or can't see how the suggestions would affect damage does not make them bad:
-Thundercloud refreshing the Astral/Umbral timer would mean not needing to cast Fire to refresh it which would mean more potency per Astral Fire phase with another Fire IV.
-Spells in Umbral Ice costing no MP would mean no longer needing to line up with server MP ticks which are a huge pain at times and can completely negate the importance of spell speed as a stat (If you're waiting .3 seconds to cast Fire III so you don't clip your MP then there goes your "extra casts from having high spell speed" logic right there).
-Thundercloud being additive rather than refreshing the timer would mean that never is any potency lost from any Thundercloud used below 36 seconds on the timer (unless the target dies), but this alone would be a MASSIVE potency buff, since you'd no longer be clipping your own Thunder at 9 seconds because your Thundercloud proc is about to run out, AND it would mean more chances at more procs, and potentially no longer needing to cast Thunder III in more Umbral Ice phases.
-Foul potency increase by 10% per Polyglot not only rewards good play but addresses issues with enmity at the pull and gives even more incentive to keep Astral/Umbral, and is, of course, a potency increase that is more dynamic than just "oh here let's make it 1300". They could even make the ticks on the UI gauge glow to indicate that you're "still charging".
-Firestarter "combo" from Fire > Fire III > Fire IV would be particularly compelling since if your Thunder timer was already up at close to 60 seconds you wouldn't bother with Sharpcast Thunder III (which would definitely be better to do with the proposed Thundercloud timer change)
Anything that helps with movement ALSO helps with damage, because a BLM that can stand perfectly immobile does pretty well, but mechanics (and of course progression) dictate that this cannot happen. Again, some classes will be better for progression than others, this is only natural, but I'll reiterate that it's just so far behind that it's discouraging both to the players of the class and to the groups looking for casters. Raising that floor with things like a raise and higher mobility through various adjustments would go a lot further than it seems on the surface. To continue with my Thundercloud refreshing example, that would mean using the Thundercloud to move AND not having to worry about refreshing Astral with a Fire spell. The transpose juggling window is doable but unforgiving and still rather small, plus the proposed "meditate" could make sure you're in either Astral or Umbral depending on which you want for the scenario.
I don't like the idea of flat adjustment to potency. Not only are flat adjustments boring but easily breakable, as we have clearly seen with Summoner since 4.08 (when the dot ticks were increased from 40 to 50). What seemed like an insignificant change resulted in the class being insanely strong coupled with the other changes. They are the very definition of "a band-aid fix" and goes into the logic of "if we give more potency per spell then they can do more damage which means the damage sacrificed while moving is less overall" and that's not addressing the real issue.
Thinking outside the box, I find, is simultaneously more rewarding, interesting, and adapts the strategy more than just "oh we'll give it 20 potency." For example, giving +10% damage to spells using Umbral Hearts would mean FOR SURE that you want to use Fire IV on them and not Sharpcast Fire, and also keep your Umbral rotation pretty standard since you'll want those 3 10%s whether or not you get the full duration of the Astral phase. -
10-14-2017, 02:26 AMSpeckledBurdSaying that Fists/Riddle of Earth makes monk more survivable is outright false, it's just by and far the worse way of maintaining a buff in the game, especially when compared to spamming transpose and hitting Enochian to maintain Enochian and your Umbral Hearts. The only time it ever saw use this tier is Exfaust during The Decisive Battle. Plus, it can actively be detrimental, in Shinryu EX you're basically forced to get a vulnerability stack from his charge if you want to keep your stacks. Mantra's value is also extremely questionable, it only effects healing spells rather than abilities when the majority of the healing done is done in rapid bursts with abilities rather than spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sfia
Saying Monk is even comparable to the contribuation of MCH/BRD/NIN/DRG is also pretty laughable. Monk's damage contribution is relatively low for how weakly Brotherhood buffs the party. -
10-14-2017, 03:33 AMSfiaI talked about this ability in the setting of progression, meaning you don't necessarily need to use it for GL refreshing, it's used because its a 20% defensive boost. To say that is "outright false" is grossly underselling one of the strongest parts of monks toolkits and its viability in progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
In an optimized party, monks personal damage is very high, and in the reasonably popular and strong triple melee composition brotherhood is well utilized and you will find you might be surprised when you actually break down how much damage monks are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
And this is the point where I feel like we're probably talking about different states of the game. In real progression (while still undergeared in actually difficult content) mantra is invaluable. Because we haven't had difficult content where the tuning is actually challenging in so long you may have a reduced appreciation for anything which increases ehp and hps.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
Regardless of all this, this doesn't concern black mages current balance state because no matter which way you shake it we're bottom of the pile. -
10-14-2017, 04:12 AMLlugen
Her point stands that it should work with abilities as well as spells, though. I think she means that things like Assize and Indomitably aren't affected by it, which probably means also Earthly Star.
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10-14-2017, 04:22 AMFerrinusI thought 5xF4 was a small but definite dps gain and its only drawback was that you had to use B4->6xF4 every so often regardless just to buy Foul charge time. Did the math get corrected or am I remembering something wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
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10-14-2017, 04:26 AMKabooaI think it swings one way or another based entirely on MP ticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
Which, suffice to say, is real !@#%ing dumb. -
10-14-2017, 04:32 AMTsuKojIt's a dps gain if you don't have to wait for a mana tick before casting thunder 3 and you can foul that ui phase. Or if you can immediately foul, and you time thunder 3 so that it casts before the last mana tick so you can go back to af with full mp. In other words, it's a gain if you have thunder cloud or if you have really good timing on your mana tick. It's a loss otherwise since you'll lose a fire 4 next af.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
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10-14-2017, 04:33 AMFerrinus
Either way, I’m with Galvuu that BLM just needs more damage and that that damage should be located within B4 to make B4 an indisputable rather than marginal DPS gain.
Idea: Spells cast with Umbra Hearts benefit from a UI3-style cast speed bonus AND mp cost halving, which is to say their cast times (not recast times) are halved. So, your first three F4s always enjoy the effective dps increase afforded by Triplecast.
Also, each time you spend one or more umbral hearts, Foul gains a couple seconds’ charge time instantly. -
10-14-2017, 04:36 AMLlugen
Not a bad suggestion, but I'd still like to see a blaringly obvious damage increase on them like +10% damage for each heart. Polyglot timer increase I think would be most effectively served under procs, which would give it "the RNG" that both SMN and RDM have with their proc timings/Enkindle reduction.
And although obviously Galvuu and I don't see eye to eye on much, I appreciate that their heart is in the right place about the job needing improvements. I'll once again say, however, that any "selfish DPS" will be certainly out of "the meta" and STILL out of "favor" of parties whenever concerning party play when it comes to utility. This is a no-brainer, so I would rather see BLM get some meaningful utility (maybe not AS MUCH as other jobs, but SOMETHING) than simply a damage increase. Furthermore, whatever can raise the floor for progression would be very welcome, which is why I suggest a raise ability and most of my suggestions involve increased mobility and timer management rather than potency adjustment, because ultimately the reason that BLM is bad at progression is mostly because of movement and partly because of phase push planning (not getting your whole thunder dot ticks or fire phase etc).
Once more: unless its damage can be buffed SO HIGH that it is still STRONGER than the utility (see also, PARTY DAMAGE), then taking the classes with utility will ALWAYS be more worthwhile as far as synergy/"the meta" are concerned. -
10-14-2017, 04:53 AMTsuKoj
Agreed, I want more damage or offensive utility. Defensive utility on a class is clunky and counter-intuitive to the design of the class. Not for lore reasons, but due to class design. Since blms timers are strict, and the class is about fitting the most into those timers, it's detrimental anytime you have to clip a cast unexpectedly. Blms imo are the worst users of manashift after smn changes just due to the fact that it's not On demand unless you don't mind losing a cast. Using it during af means a lost f4, using it at the end of the af phase means you can't b3, using it at the end of ui means you might not have full mp going into af, so blms have 1 ideal spot to use it, and that is at the start of ui, after the first mana tick before the second. In a situation manashifts even needed(if a healer/rdm/smn/pld died) blms have to cut their rotations short or sacrifice a cast. Blms are also the probably the worst users of apoc even though it was their own spell before. Using apoc clips a cast and since blms have the longest cast timers(veraero/thunder doesn't count), they have a more inconsistent timing for apoc. Clipping a cast with an ogcd during certain times , like when your doing quad fire 4 during ll+convert is also really risky to the af timer.
Offensive utility can at least be timed and is consistent regardless of pug or static groups, and it makes learning fights easier, and I miss seeing big burst phases with blm. Consistent dps is nice, but with the way most fights are designed in this game, burst is much better than sustain due to mechanics forcing downtime and phase transitions essentially cutting 20s off cd timers. -
10-14-2017, 05:16 AMRemediI agree and proposed this a while agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
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10-14-2017, 08:11 AMHaroldSaxon
Until Square Enix acknowledge the disadvantage of being a permament caster is (i.e. every spell is a cast outside of 4 spells every 60 seconds and RNG procs) and the power of stacked dps buffs, then BLM is always going to be undesirteable. That along with Square Enix's obsession with buffing MCH and keeping disembowel in the game.
Right now, BLM is the flat out worst DPS class. It doesn't offer anything that isn't provided in a better way by another class.
I would go as far as to say that anyone who doesn't agree with the above needs to actually attempt to play the class to a high level, or is biased. -
10-14-2017, 08:45 AMBernkastelx
Probably mobility lower aetherial cd to the same or at least 10 secs cd instead of 30 secs. Playing the new smn feels so good cause I have mobility throughout my entire dwt phase, even then ruin iv instant casts and ruin ii make so I can still push something during the mechanic. Blm its just a pain to play now, I even stuck with it for sophia ex "not fun to learn as blm btw". Now its "I hope triplecast is up oh its not oh look my ley lines is in aoe again guess i'll deal with it >.>", just not fun at all. I could deal with blm not being mobile or not having utility if their dmg made up for it which sadly imo its not worth the headache.
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10-14-2017, 10:50 AMzuzu-bqOnly if you can guarantee a Foul after that all. It's not absolute. And to guarantee it you need MP tick manipulation and a natural Thunder proc. That's why I said "if the stars align".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
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10-14-2017, 11:14 AMHaroldSaxonAetherial manipulation having a lower CD will not fix things because of the animation lock and lack of instant cast spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastelx