A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

Has Warrior taken back the spot of #1 DPS amongst tanks?

As a matter of fact, it has, by a comfortable margin across all skill levels. See the week 1-2 and 3-4 results for more details.

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Originally Posted by Raiden_Ki

Has Warrior taken back the spot of #1 DPS amongst tanks?

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they're but you have to work really hard to pull that off, and i say the reward still doesn't worth as much as the effort you need to make it happen
it is complicated for no good reason

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Originally Posted by Raiden_Ki

Has Warrior taken back the spot of #1 DPS amongst tanks?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

As a matter of fact, it has, by a comfortable margin across all skill levels. See the week 1-2 and 3-4 results for more details.

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No.

Across the board it's almost identical to pld.

o1s top 4 are Warriors, yes(with #1 having a bizzare 100 dps over #2), but #2 to #7 are all within 50 dps of one another and overall there are more paladins in the top 100 than there are anything else.

o2s again, does have a Warrior on top(with, again, a bizzare extra 100 dps), but #2 and #3 are Paladins and again, going down the list it's majority Paladin.

o3s is the only one you could seriously take as a sign of Warriors doing especially well, with there being a pretty close split between pld and war down the list.

o4s is topped by a Paladin and there's significantly fewer Warriors in it across the board- this is basically because any relevant prog group generally won't take a Warrior to begin with, so it doesn't really say anything either way.

Is it dealing relevant dps? Yes. Is there a comfortable margin? No. Is it undeniably #1 dps? Absolutely not- it's about on par with Paladin. The only margin that exists are most likely the result of parse runs and really should be counted separately, but even then it's 100 dps difference- about 3% from a fed Warrior compared to a prog Paladin.

That being said, Paladins will also have the biggest presence in general simply because of sample size- MOST statics WILL have a Paladin, while Warriors and Dark Knights only have a 50:50 chance of being in at best.(It's not actually 50:50, it's in Dark Knight's favor.) So what the data actually means is more of a ballpark idea. The important part is that, no, optimal Warrior play is NOT significantly better than optimal Paladin play in terms of dps.

kind of off topic, but is Provoke broken? I had a red mage steal aggro on me in a duty once and i provoked, nothing happened..it was as if i missed. I tried ultimatum and timed both just before i use butchers block. Still nothing. It didnt seem to alter my enmity at all. Usually over geared dps rip hate off of me if im undergeared but a provoke still guarantees i absolutely take aggro at least until they hit it again. Ive never had this happen before. Just started with stormblood.

Edit: Happened again with a chocobo tanking a fate. I provoke.. Nothing changes at all. I spam butchers block in defiance and dont gain aggro until just before the fates over..I joined fated part way through and ripped hate off of plenty of other people/chocobos/summons. Did provoke change how it worked or something? This is really weird and confusing. Its not constant though. It only happened like 4 times since launch.

On topic: Warrior pre 70 is horribly boring and the dps feels atrocious. I seriously cant stand it. I do as much as if i were hitting with a wet noodle. I was doing solo stuff today and my gosh it takes me like 5 minutes to kill one stupid overworld enemy of similar level. I dont mind a challenge but this isnt even hard. Its just needlessly long.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

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Nobody is going to be BiS for a while, especially given the number of tome upgrade drops required to achieve it. I'm not sure why you'd want to do a comparison of only the top scores and ignore the overall performance trends.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Nobody is going to be BiS for a while, especially given the number of tome upgrade drops required to achieve it. I'm not sure why you'd want to do a comparison of only the top scores and ignore the overall performance trends.

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If... you go down the list you'll see the trends. "Warrior and Paladin are about the same dps-wise"

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

kind of off topic, but is Provoke broken? I had a red mage steal aggro on me in a duty once and i provoked, nothing happened..it was as if i missed. I tried ultimatum and timed both just before i use butchers block. Still nothing. It didnt seem to alter my enmity at all. Usually over geared dps rip hate off of me if im undergeared but a provoke still guarantees i absolutely take aggro at least until they hit it again. Ive never had this happen before. Just started with stormblood.

On topic: Warrior pre 70 is horribly boring and the dps feels atrocious. I seriously cant stand it. I do as much as if i were hitting with a wet noodle. I was doing solo stuff today and my gosh it takes me like 5 minutes to kill one stupid overworld enemy of similar level. I dont mind a challenge but this isnt even hard. Its just needlessly long.

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I've never had that issue... No idea.

WOW there's still people defending the new Warrior XD. That's interesting. Some will accept anything that they are forced.
SB warrior is broken by design. Doesn't matter how much DPS it's capable. It's just a Shadow of the past

yep warriors dont let pride blind you Warrior is bad dont play it, dont let people force you to play it, its broken, switch to somthing else.

Anyone that says WAR is still broken hasn't played WAR seriously since the 4.05 adjustments.
One may not like its gameplay (just like I dislike PLd gameplay) but it's absolutely effective in a raid setting.
Sure they aren't as well designed as PLD, don't have raid utility and only marginally outdps PLD with more effort but they are still amazing Tanks with the better mitigation kit and higher dps ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Anyone that says WAR is still broken hasn't played WAR seriously since the 4.05 adjustments.
One may not like its gameplay (just like I dislike PLd gameplay) but it's absolutely effective in a raid setting.
Sure they aren't as well designed as PLD, don't have raid utility and only marginally outdps PLD with more effort but they are still amazing Tanks with the better mitigation kit and higher dps ceiling.

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I think I cried a little reading that part.

Cheer up WAR bros.

https://j.gifs.com/ElA4DY.gif

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I think I cried a little reading that part.

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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that statement.
WAR isn't best OP tank anymore but it's still in a very good spot IMO.
I play all 3 tanks and never feel like any of them is a bad choice in any content. DRK still needs a bit of love but overall, we have a pretty healthy tank balance at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

oh look another War who has PLD lvled to 70 you dont get an opinion sorry bye.

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People maining multiple tanks are way more prone to see the actuel balance than someone focusing on one job and all the whiney whine that goes with.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that statement.
WAR isn't best OP tank anymore but it's still in a very good spot IMO.
I play all 3 tanks and never feel like any of them is a bad choice in any content. DRK still needs a bit of love but overall, we have a pretty healthy tank balance at the moment.

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Wait you weren't joking?

The only hotbar you will ever need:
https://i.imgur.com/qp0THVY.png

Also reposting legendary image cause still relevant today:
https://i.imgur.com/y1wPLVS.jpg

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Wait you weren't joking?

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which part you interpreted as a joke exactly?

Swiggity Swag What's In The Bag

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

which part you interpreted as a joke exactly?

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the "we have a pretty healthy tank balance at the moment" part obviously
as long as PLD has guaranteed spot(which they are i don't know why the F anyone in their right mind won't bring a PLD in their party) it's not a "healthy balance"
it's 3.x all over again

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

People maining multiple tanks are way more prone to see the actuel balance than someone focusing on one job and all the whiney whine that goes with.

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There is no balance that's the main point here.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

it's 3.x all over again

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It's not.
3.x had a clear undesired tank that did not mesh well with the content at all.
That is not the case now.

PLD is slightly better but you are not gimping yourself by not bringing one.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough. Not perfect, but way better than 3.x.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It's not.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough.

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I respectfully disagree here. All 3 tanks perform rather similar in terms of DPS and mitigation (although DRK needs some serious love in that regard so the class is not as dependant on TBN), but only PLD has access to raidwide mitigation tools. This fact alone means that there is, objectively, no reason not to bring a PLD, and that why I say it is not balanced at all. Sure you can clear content with DRK/WAR, but that puts more strain on the healers.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It's not.
3.x had a clear undesired tank that did not mesh well with the content at all.
That is not the case now.
PLD is slightly better but you are not gimping yourself by not bringing one.
All tanks are efficient at clearing the content with only a slight edge to PLD. And in that sense, it is balanced enough. Not perfect, but way better than 3.x.

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PLD isn't "slightly better" than the other 2 tanks they deal as much damage(and sometime even more) than a warrior with better party utility, and they beat dark knight in both dps and utility
it will only only be balanced once a party can perform equally good without needing to choose a specific tanks, which isn't the case at the moment because a party that has a PLD as 1 of the 2 tanks is almost guaranteed to be better than a party that doesn't have them(in situation where both party are equally skilled btw)

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Originally Posted by Gojin

There is no balance that's the main point here.

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Its still all kinds of asinine to say that someone shouldn't get to have an opinion because their opinion might actually be less biased. If you want threads that are just gigantic echo-chambers, reddit is good for that.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

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PLD is better, I'm not denying that fact, but it's not to the point where they totally eclipse the other tanks. They do have a guaranteed slot in a raid group but that's more based on their perceived value rather than their actual performance, meaning that it's great to know you have those party mitigation tools available but in reality you don't use them that much.
Swap a PLD for another tank and it isn't gonna make that much of a difference to competent healers. The main noticeable downside to not having a PLD is gonna be Hallowed Ground really.


Currently, DRK is in the worst spot out of the 3 tanks yet there are still plenty of people who raid with them and within very comparable performances.
While not perfect, it's within reasonable variance where none of them is a big outlier like in 3.x.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

I respectfully disagree here. All 3 tanks perform rather similar in terms of DPS and mitigation

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PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

Raid mitigation is likewise an extremely situational class perk. Passage of Arms is just straight up not useful in 3/4 fights this raid tier, and would be questionable even on Neo Exdeath if Almagest wasn't 100% designed to cater to PoA. Divine Veil performs a little better since there's no associated DPS loss, but even then you'll struggle to find more than 2-3 situations across all of v1s through v3s where DV accomplishes anything besides making a tick or two of Medica II/AHelios/Whispering Dawn into overheating.

Onslaught is seriously probably a bigger rDPS gain than PLD's "overpowered" party mitigation skills.

You can passage of arms for yourself you know, it's better than bulwark it's just guaranteed blocks. So calling it useless is pretty retarded. It could never be outright required because who the hell would design that fight.

You could also use it to save someone on a share damage mechanic if don't need for a specific ability. What I use reprisal for half the time.

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Originally Posted by Crater

PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

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Hey so either I've missed something incredibly big or this is straight up wrong dude and I'd like some elaboration on what led you to this conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Crater

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PLD might not have WAR levels of mitigation, but it's definitely less squishy than Dark "I have to use stoneskin to eat fluff damage because my mitigation kit doesn't exist" Knight. Blocking is decent passive mitigation, not great, but decent. That sheltron is basically always available when you'd need it is essentially a free 20% damage reduction on any tankbuster you want for a universally positive gain. Intervention is another ability that has zero opportunity cost and is just free mitigation for your MT. Divine veil is also awesome because, again, it's raid-wide mitigation at zero opportunity cost; and while passage of arms is highly situational, it's still more than what WAR or DRK bring to the table (nothing).

The important thing to note here is that paladin's utility isn't really "necessary", but it costs basically nothing and is tacked onto a kit that would be fantastic in its own right.

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Originally Posted by Crater

PLD absolutely does not perform similarly to WAR and DRK in terms of personal mitigation. PLD is incredibly squishy compared to either of those two classes.

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While PLD does not have the same amount of CDs a WAR has, PLD still has a lot more going on than DRK. Shelltron alone is great for tankcrunchers of any kind. The only class that seriously needs some love is DRK, since its currently to dependant on a level 70 skill (and has a half the time useless CD - dark mind).

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Originally Posted by Crater

Raid mitigation is likewise an extremely situational class perk. Passage of Arms is just straight up not useful in 3/4 fights this raid tier, and would be questionable even on Neo Exdeath if Almagest wasn't 100% designed to cater to PoA. Divine Veil performs a little better since there's no associated DPS loss, but even then you'll struggle to find more than 2-3 situations across all of v1s through v3s where DV accomplishes anything besides making a tick or two of Medica II/AHelios/Whispering Dawn into overheating.

Onslaught is seriously probably a bigger rDPS gain than PLD's "overpowered" party mitigation skills.

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Im pretty sure that two healers that can dish out a few more stones because of raid mitigation can increase rDPS by more than Onslaught alone can, though I admit I am not really as good in the mathematical theory than others here on the forum. Sure, its all in relation to the skill of the players in the raidgroup, but I like to think that a properly timed DV or PoA can easily help with Roar and Blaze(O1s), Gravitational Wave and Long Drop (O2s) and Queens Waltz and Dimensional Wave in O3s (I admit I am not on O4s yet).
Can you explain what you mean a bit further?

Its amusing hearing ppl say pld is squishy when it has the highest sustain currently.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Its amusing hearing ppl say pld is squishy when it has the highest sustain currently.

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It isn't squishy, it's in the middle between DRK the squishy tank, and WAR.

What exactly is the metric people are using to determine "squishiness"

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Originally Posted by Felorr

What exactly is the metric people are using to determine "squishiness"

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I'm guessing alot of people are apparently using number of cooldowns/dmg received as the metric but that's not exactly how it works. I think of it in terms of self sustain, in all my experience on war... PLD has lived longer in emergency situations or after healers die. This is most noticeable during royal menagerie with both tanks constantly being hit. Even my static pld buddy has saved me quite a few times with clemency just for a recovery with raises going around.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that statement.
WAR isn't best OP tank anymore but it's still in a very good spot IMO.
I play all 3 tanks and never feel like any of them is a bad choice in any content. DRK still needs a bit of love but overall, we have a pretty healthy tank balance at the moment.

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A tank being definitively better in all areas is not a good thing.

HW WAR was not good. Neither is SB PLD.

Yes I liked how it felt and how I was useful. But I don't need to be OP to be fun or useful. But I also don't want to be "eh. You can do the content with it just fine."

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

A tank being definitively better in all areas is not a good thing.

HW WAR was not good. Neither is SB PLD.

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No it's not good.
But the problem was never HW WAR or even SB PLD. The problem was HW PLD which was straight up bad. SB DRK is nowhere as bad as HW PLD was.

Current tank balance isn't perfect but it's by far the best we've had so far. And really, SB DRK isn't broken or anything... it need a dps buff to catch up to PLD/WAR and a bit more mitigation/utility.
It'd be very easy to fix through potency adjustments if SE deemed it appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

No it's not good.
But the problem was never HW WAR or even SB PLD. The problem was HW PLD which was straight up bad. SB DRK is nowhere as bad as HW PLD was.

Current tank balance isn't perfect but it's by far the best we've had so far. And really, SB DRK isn't broken or anything... it need a dps buff to catch up to PLD/WAR and a bit more mitigation/utility.
It'd be very easy to fix through potency adjustments if SE deemed it appropriate.

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I worded that previous post badly.

I didn't mean to imply that SB PLD is OP like HW WAR was.

I think it's fine as it is right now.

HOLY NECRO WTF LMAO!