Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

From here on I won't be using either of my Sects, because I will be playing the game as a "Twilight Astrologian," pls dnt get mad abut my plystyle.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Fine, then DPS can just press one button like a Scholar who spams adloquium, and jumps around. They're still doing damage. This thread has just reaffirmed that there are many lazy players out there that deserve their kick.

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Maybe you should have an actual look at what healers who are healing actually do instead of making ignorant uninformed comments.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Healers have offensive abilities, right. Because they NEED them. How else are they going to level up alone? Healing mobs to death?

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If they didn't want healers to DPS in dungeons, they could disable those skills when you enter dungeon instances. They could disable Cleric Stance to make them prohibitively expensive for the damage they do. Yet the devs don't do either.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Please show me where SE/Yoshi have stated that they only added healer damage so they could do stuff single player, and that they didn't want it used in dungeons.

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I'd like to see them explain Holy. To explain Gravity.

They are both skills that are largely useless in solo content, since the number of enemies you need to be facing to make them mana efficient is far more than a solo healer will usually be facing. WHM you can make an edge case for because it has the stun component, making it more reliable for soloing groups of enemies. Not so much with AST.

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Originally Posted by craized

No, no they don't, when they queue, they join as a "healer" not a "heals and dps".

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Healer means only healing classes which both heal and dps.

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Originally Posted by craized

Maybe you should have an actual look at what healers who are healing actually do instead of making ignorant uninformed comments.

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There's plenty of healers weighing in here. We're simply saying things you don't like, even though it's the current accepted meta of the game.

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Originally Posted by craized

Maybe you should have an actual look at what healers who are healing actually do instead of making ignorant uninformed comments.

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I mained healer up until 3.3 (went relic for Dragoon). I know full well what the job is capable of and when abilities should be used. So I'm most certainly not ignorant of what a healer does, and I'd play that one right back at you as you obviously don't understand the role in the FFXIV version of healer if you take the title 'Healer' as completely literal.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

I'd like to see them explain Holy. To explain Gravity.

They are both skills that are largely useless in solo content, since the number of enemies you need to be facing to make them mana efficient is far more than a solo healer will usually be facing. WHM you can make an edge case for because it has the stun component, making it more reliable for soloing groups of enemies. Not so much with AST.

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Or assize, which switches between healing or damage, all depending on the stance you're in.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Or assize, which switches between healing or damage, all depending on the stance you're in.

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Assize is a fun one. One of the best oGCDs in the game. Free damage -and- you're giving me mana back? I feel so spoiled.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

If they didn't want healers to DPS in dungeons, they could disable those skills when you enter dungeon instances. They could disable Cleric Stance to make them prohibitively expensive for the damage they do. Yet the devs don't do either.



I'd like to see them explain Holy. To explain Gravity.

They are both skills that are largely useless in solo content, since the number of enemies you need to be facing to make them mana efficient is far more than a solo healer will usually be facing. WHM you can make an edge case for because it has the stun component, making it more reliable for soloing groups of enemies. Not so much with AST.

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ahh so it's about how SE want healers to play is it? In that case surely when you sign up for a duty you would be either a "tank" a "dps" or a "heals and dps" in that case.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Firstly 'she' is refering to me, I presume, is not talking about or asking about efficiency, I was discussing playstyle and choice of, or lack of according to the person above. Secondly, It is not necessary to dps to be a good healer. Just go in instances where you have to heal bad groups or people learning like I do and then you wont have the space to dps. Am I a bad healer? Thats subjective but I do get people through instances and get quite a few commends. Thirdly, I'm amazed that you havent twigged what the subject of the post was about. Having said that I would like to ask you how I play the game cos you seem to know more about that than I do.

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I am not you quoted the right person as your post doesn't pertain to anything I'm talking about. And I was speaking in your defense BTW.

That being said, I can't or won't tell you to play. From my experience, healers are kicked more for DPSing rather than only healing. It's not because of the DPS though, it's because they ignore healing for whatever reason and people are dying.

All I can do is encourage you to try and DPS when it is safe to do so. I can understand if it makes you uncomfortable, but if you're running as SCH your downtime and safety is far greater than the other healers. The fairy is capable of handling anywhere from 70-99% of the healing depending on group and instance, and it takes very little time to apply/reapply shields. If you can get shadow flare and bane up, the trash dies significantly faster, which means your tanks gets out of danger faster. This is part of your duty as SCH (heals with kills)

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Originally Posted by Dsync

I mained healer up until 3.3 (went relic for Dragoon). I know full well what the job is capable of and when abilities should be used. So I'm most certainly not ignorant of what a healer does, and I'd play that one right back at you as you obviously don't understand the role in the FFXIV version of healer if you take the title 'Healer' as completely literal.

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This just makes your silly comment even worse then because you know what's involved.

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Originally Posted by craized

This just makes your silly comment even worse then because you know what's involved.

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Yep, to not be a lazy healer. Shame you either encourage it, or are one of those I'm talking about. No wonder we have brain dead content for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Nalyna

I'm lvl 52 now and I think I finally grasp what people are saying: Don't be idle. I view healer as the ultimate support role. Traditionally, I think of buffs and heals as the support, but that's probably because in most game the dps a healer does is so insignificant. But as I gain more and more experience in my class, I'm slowly becoming more adept at the stance dance. It was really uncomfortable at first and it still often times is. But I'm seeing improvement. I'm probably not an amazing healer because I am not putting out as much DPS as I can, but I am keeping the party alive while at the same time not standing around doing nothing.

And I think this is what the majority of people who are in the pro-dps camp are trying to say: Don't sit there and do nothing. Contribute. This is a multiplayer game. The whole point of group play is to work as a team and help everyone progress. DPSing when you have nothing else to do is just being a team player. You don't have to be an amazing skilled player. If you have an open window with nothing to do, then do something.

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Bringing this back because this important point is getting buried in pages.

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Originally Posted by craized

Maybe you should have an actual look at what healers who are healing actually do instead of making ignorant uninformed comments.

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Oh good, the Sylphies again.

Do you guys just run dungeons with people who have broken armor? Minimum ilvl? I get it, every now and then you'll get a paper tank who needs some extra attention. But consistently? What are you doing with over half of your globals? Do you not have your fairy summoned? Are you wearing strength accessories or something? What twilight zone do you live in where turning Cleric Stance on and off is difficult in farm content? All three healer classes have an instant cast emergency heal on a relatively short cooldown. Turning off Cleric and throwing it at the tank takes less than one second. If your tank drops from full to nothing in less than the five seconds it takes for Cleric to come off cooldown there was either an unmitigated crit tankbuster or your tank is drooling on his keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Yep, to not be a lazy healer. Shame you either encourage it, or are one of those I'm talking about. No wonder we have brain dead content for dungeons.

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What I encourage is letting people play how they feel comfortable instead of being obnoxious for the sake of a few minutes shaved off a run. I guarantee you a high percentage of those who don't want to dps, don't want to do so out of fear of messing up rather than out of lazyness. Healing is arguably the most stressful role out of the three. This attitude only makes it worse.

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Originally Posted by craized

Healing is arguably the most stressful role out of the three.

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Career tank who has all lvl 60 healers and does endgame content on both roles says NOPE.

in fact, I generally run healer in roulette content to destress from tanking. And my EX roulette have about 75-90% dps uptime unless the tank is bad.

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Originally Posted by craized

I guarantee you a high percentage of those who don't want to dps, don't want to do so out of fear of messing up rather than out of lazyness.

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If you let your fear hold you back, how will you progress in your proficiency? Like I said, I too was in the "But I don't wanna dps" camp for a while. Exactly because of what you said -- I was afraid to mess up.I did mess up. But so far, every single time I've messed up, I've apologized and received positive feedback. Often times people will say "I play a WHM too and I get it." I've never been yelled out for not DPSing enough even though I sometimes wonder if they expect me to dps more. A few times people have died because I forgot I was in cleric stance. But so far everyone has been super gracious about it. I often hear "It happens. Don't worry about it."

It's nice to stay in your comfort level, but there's also something great about pushing yourself just a little. Each time you push yourself, even if it's just a small amount, you become better.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Career tank who has all lvl 60 healers and does endgame content on both roles says NOPE.

in fact, I generally run healer in roulette content to destress from tanking. And my EX roulette have about 75-90% dps uptime unless the tank is bad.

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This, absolutely.

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Originally Posted by craized

What I encourage is letting people play how they feel comfortable instead of being obnoxious for the sake of a few minutes shaved off a run. I guarantee you a high percentage of those who don't want to dps, don't want to do so out of fear of messing up rather than out of lazyness. Healing is arguably the most stressful role out of the three. This attitude only makes it worse.

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Well I hope you won't mind when I pull out Garuda and let her DPS while I watch. I'm too scared to use my DoTs and Ruin spells because one time I used Bane and the tank didn't have full aggro, so an enemy came and bit me on the bottom! I was scarred for life :'(

Cleric stance on.
Deeps.
Tank at 50% - dropped a bit quick there
Cleric stance off
Heals
Heals
Heals
Oh shit tank at 10% wtf? Wtf?
(Turns out mispressed cleric stance off so it didnt toggle off)
Tank dead
Starting to flap
Dps dead
Healer dead, group wiped
Group giving me grief.

Never had a situation like that? It's happened to me a few times. Personally I just write it off as shit happens because I've been playing MMOs since they were a thing but I can imagine there are lots of people out there who would let this stress them right out. Let people play how they want to and if they aren't comfortable dpsing then so what? Your run takes 5 more mins. It could be worse, you could get a healer who does nothing but dps and people die lots.

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Originally Posted by craized

Never had a situation like that?

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Mistakes happen. Pick yourself up like a big kid, learn from the experience, move on and become better.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Career tank who has all lvl 60 healers and does endgame content on both roles says NOPE.

in fact, I generally run healer in roulette content to destress from tanking. And my EX roulette have about 75-90% dps uptime unless the tank is bad.

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I've played all three roles in many games, over many years and to the exclusion of endgame raiding where tank can be more stressful, I find healing (especially in group content where you are the sole healer, and funnily enough especially in this game with all it's hectic movement mechanics) to be more stressful, and most definately more stressful than dps. But that's a matter of opinion. At the end of the day if someone is performing thier role, just let them be.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am not you quoted the right person as your post doesn't pertain to anything I'm talking about.

All I can do is encourage you to try and DPS when it is safe to do so. I can understand if it makes you uncomfortable, but if you're running as SCH your downtime and safety is far greater than the other healers. The fairy is capable of handling anywhere from 70-99% of the healing depending on group and instance, and it takes very little time to apply/reapply shields. If you can get shadow flare and bane up, the trash dies significantly faster, which means your tanks gets out of danger faster. This is part of your duty as SCH (heals with kills)

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Just read back :) but im sorry if there was any misunderstanding. Posts are limited, but Its not true that Ive only paid attention to those I like. Im understanding everyones point of view I may not agree but Im stll listening. Thank you for your effort. This is to others please dont slap people here for posting their experienes. Craized I get t situations like that all the time and wonder sometimes if Im playing the same game as some of the healers here that get all this space to dps. Thinks its to defend their position, excluding those that can fit SF, bioll, bio, etc in a 15 sec window ofc

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Mistakes happen. Pick yourself up like a big kid, learn from the experience, move on and become better.

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Try reading the full post, it might help you avoid silly comments in future.

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Originally Posted by craized

This attitude only makes it worse.

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This attitude will never disappear as long as people try to argue that choosing to overheal or remain idle instead of dps is proper play.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Yep, to not be a lazy healer. Shame you either encourage it, or are one of those I'm talking about. No wonder we have brain dead content for dungeons.

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That's not why it's "brain dead". Ever run brain dead content at the minimal item level, like the devs do before releasing them? Being ridiculously over geared for an instance as many players are makes brain dead content far more forgivable. Skill is not required when mechanics can be ignored.

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Originally Posted by craized

Try reading the full post, it might help you avoid silly comments in future.

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Not a thing in that post affects what I said you ham sandwich. It is general advice to others who may find such scenarios "stressful". I've experienced them all. I've lived. I've grown. I've gotten better from it. I'd prefer people to aspire to greatness than to encourage them to wallow in mediocrity. But to each their own, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by craized

Cleric stance on.
Deeps.
Tank at 50% - dropped a bit quick there
Cleric stance off
Heals
Heals
Heals
Oh shit tank at 10% wtf? Wtf?
(Turns out mispressed cleric stance off so it didn\\\\\\'t toggle off)
Tank dead
Starting to flap
Dps dead
Healer dead, group wiped
Group giving me grief.

Never had a situation like that? It\\\\\\'s happened to me a few times. Personally I just write it off as shit happens because I\\\\\\'ve been playing MMOs since they were a thing but I can imagine there are lots of people out there who would let this stress them right out. Let people play how they want to and if they aren't comfortable dpsing then so what? Your run takes 5 more mins. It could be worse, you could get a healer who does nothing but dps and people die lots.

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I don't care if the run takes 5 or 10 more minutes. When a healer stands around doing nothing for 80% of the run because all they do is heal is insulting and unfair to the other players. If a DPS is min-ilevel and the run takes longer because of that? Fine by me, they need to gear up. If a DPS is well geared and doesn't try to get max damage or even worse the ice mage? Kick. min-ilevel tank losing aggro all the time to geared DPS? Not a problem. well geared tank losing aggro all the time and not mitigating damage? kick.

This thread and others like it need to stop. If you're not comfortable playing your class even close to it's potential, then pick another class to play. Check youtube and watch any of the videos on BLMs or SMNs keeping the party alive after a healer hits the floor. Watch tanks and DPS run down boss fights while the healer stands around outside petting their fairy.

Heal-only healers and Tank-only tanks are part of the reason why healers and tanks get shit on and it's unfair to healers and tanks that try to maximize their efficiency and make the run smooth and fast. I'm not asking you to be savage raid-tier good, but make an effort.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

This attitude will never disappear as long as people try to argue that choosing to overheal or remain idle instead of dps is proper play.

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completely missing the point like pretty much everyone advocating HAELER MUST DEEPS OR DUMMY IS COMING OUT!.

the point is: its down to the player how they choose to play and nothing you can say or do will change that. if your healer doesn't want to dps. then you are shit out of luck because thankfully most people in actual dungeons are too busy trying to perform their own role rather than worrying about what others are doing and if they aren't dying needlessly most are happy enough.

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Originally Posted by craized

What I encourage is letting people play how they feel comfortable instead of being obnoxious for the sake of a few minutes shaved off a run.

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Here's the thing, in a dungeon I will just leave rather than start a kick. I'm not going to create a drama by mouthing off in front of the group and make everyone feel bad. However, if that kick option comes up? I know that it's more than just me, and I will click it.

On these forums? I'm far more outspoken, as I wish people who are reading be aware that there is the meta that a lot of people see healing as both healing and damage. Some people will rip you apart in game for the smallest thing. It's better if you teach people early, rather than let them learn bad habits, then wonder why people are going off on them. We have those who are so adamant that they are there to "heal only" that that is something that I personally find obnoxious. Give people one less reason to attack you.

We all come here to this forum through choice, to maybe look up to see how the community feels a class should be played well. The people who at least try their best don't go unnoticed. If what I say here puts people off then there's a good chance people may think twice and realise that to avoid getting slammed when healing, then they should use more than just 3 or 4 buttons, or see that healing might not be what they're best suited to. The people who actively want to make me spend more time with them because they can't be bothered? Yeah, I'll discourage that the best I can.

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Originally Posted by Llus

I don't care if the run takes 5 or 10 more minutes. When a healer stands around doing nothing for 80% of the run because all they do is heal is insulting and unfair to the other players

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yeah, this isn't actually a thing though. sure there may be some downtime, but unless the content you are doing is completely trivial, there is always scope for a healer to be doing something that is not dps.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Here's the thing, in a dungeon I will just leave rather than start a kick. I'm not going to create a drama by mouthing off in front of the group and make everyone feel bad. However, if that kick option comes up? I know that it's more than just me, and I will click it.

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so you would honestly leave because your healer was only healing? and then give yourself a half hour block for the sake of a few minutes? makes sense when you put it that way....

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Originally Posted by craized

yeah, this isn't actually a thing though. sure there may be some downtime, but unless the content you are doing is completely trivial, there is always scope for a healer to be doing something that is not dps.

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It is, though. If I can spend 70% of an expert dungeon in cleric stance, then if I'm not dpsing and I never touch cleric stance, that's the majority of the run where all I'm doing is topping off the tank or party.

Unless by "something" you mean overhealing and topping the tank off from every slightest bit of trivial damage.

There are boss fights in most of the 60 dungeons where the tank and/or party can do perfectly well on HoTs alone. But why do damage to help the fight along when you can just tab out and let everyone else carry you?

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Originally Posted by craized

so you would honestly leave because your healer was only healing? and then give yourself a half hour block for the sake of a few minutes? makes sense when you put it that way....

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I'm just going to leave this here:

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Originally Posted by craized

Try reading the full post, it might help you avoid silly comments in future.

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Originally Posted by craized

there is always scope for a healer to be doing something that is not dps.

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Any example? Or you just threw this randomly? :p
I'm whm as main, and if i was only healing i could easily watch netflix in the same time honestly. Unless you are speaking about overhealing, but... Nah.

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Originally Posted by craized

so you would honestly leave because your healer was only healing? and then give yourself a half hour block for the sake of a few minutes? makes sense when you put it that way....

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I have many things I could do/play/watch in that time. I have no interest in helping people who won't help themselves or the party. 30 minute lockout is nothing. I choose to leave rather than carry dead weight. Normally after the first boss when I feel I can gauge if there's been no effort.

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Originally Posted by craized

yeah, this isn't actually a thing though. sure there may be some downtime, but unless the content you are doing is completely trivial, there is always scope for a healer to be doing something that is not dps.

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Healer does nothing for 80% of the fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgMe5uHPsE&t=1040s

SCH doesn't use any DPS on this fight and dies to mechanics at around 60%, war and 2 ninjas finish the fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9mzOxbSJ0

So exactly what does a healer need to be doing when there's no need to heal? Watching netflix? Poking their fairy?

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I'm just going to leave this here:

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i see reading comprehension is not your strong suite. if you didn't understand our previous interactions, there's nothing further i can do to educate you. but hey, if you think you did good, you have my permission to give yourself a pat on the back.

vigiosun - the people who don't feel comfortable dpsing as well as healing, understand and accept this. they aren't fulfilling their max potential. thats ok as long as they fulfil their main role. its acceptable. but btw, there are no ratings. no one is rating anyone.

also - 2 youtube videos prove nothing other than some specific instances. if I chose to, I dare say I could find two videos where the healers won the day because of their strong heal only game.

everyone else - seeing as ive run out of posts for the day (good one SE): in conclusion - there are a lot of elitists pricks on this forum. happily they are much rarer in game.

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Originally Posted by craized

so you would honestly leave because your healer was only healing? and then give yourself a half hour block for the sake of a few minutes? makes sense when you put it that way....

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I have and will again. I'm not going to carry you while you AFK.

Is this really so hard to understand? 24pgs...
If you only heal you are a soso healer..
That is clear as the sky.
But now if you heal an dps you are healer we all want in our life.
Is up to the other players to rate you, not yourself.
is like a tank that never drop tank stance knowing it got the tools to do so.
Sure I don't support the kick option for just heal but saying that a healer that just heal is good enough I call that b*&*/&
You not pushing yourself to 100% of what you are capable of.

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Originally Posted by craized

i see reading comprehension is not your strong suite.

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Now that's genuinely hilarious.

I agree we have nothing to learn from one another. I'm not interested in understanding your perspective; play to sub-par expectations to your heart's desire.