[1206] Water spells

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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I thought the idea of all those changes was to make game more final fatasy-ish... A FF without poison spell or slow? You must be kidding Rukki...

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Originally Posted by Procas

I thought the idea of all those changes was to make game more final fatasy-ish... A FF without poison spell or slow? You must be kidding Rukki...

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And without Water.

Just because we don't command the spells does not mean they do not exist. I am sure Chigoes will still be poisoning people.

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

Considering everybody thought THM was going to be WHM before it was announced otherwise, I don't see why not. WHM on XI has Banish spells, and Scourge could fit that role a bit as well. Having the elemental magic split between two classes is silly, even with the action bar and the ability to set any spells and abilities you want.

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Then you'd also be asking them to completely destroy the lore of Conjurer as well. Remember, Conjurer is not White Mage.... White Mage is White Mage.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Uh...but at least as of 1.20 and 1.21, there will be no way to deal water damage at all, unless there's either a trait or they bring back elemental damage on weapons. That's 3+ months playing with a "broken" elemental wheel.

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You know what they say, if classes arn't broken, fix them, and if they still arn't broken, fix them again and again... Class fixes over content, that's what we all wanted right?

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Originally Posted by Mikiko

Considering everybody thought THM was going to be WHM before it was announced otherwise, I don't see why not. WHM on XI has Banish spells, and Scourge could fit that role a bit as well. Having the elemental magic split between two classes is silly, even with the action bar and the ability to set any spells and abilities you want.

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Hm, my main in FFXI is SCH, which I'm pretty sure we:

A. Get majority of White magic excluding certain specific ones to White Mage, which means it's being split between multiple jobs.
B. Red Mage gets white magic that neither jobs get, i.e EnSpells.
C. SCH gets Black Magic that Black Mages doesn't get, i.e Helicies.

Even older FF games they've split spells between jobs, it's not a silly concept, it's a typical concept, whether you like it or not is your personal feeling.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I know March of this year seems like a long time ago, but Japan suffered its worst tsunami in recent memory which resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands, entire towns swallowed whole, and an ongoing nuclear crisis at the Fukushima power plant.

Making light of tsunamis with Leviathan would probably be received in poor taste at this time.

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It is, plenty of Animes are actually on hold because of their concepts that regarded this (One included a great flood as the backstory of the main character.) it's why they're even doing the Moogle fight first, to let time past, since even Titan was supposed to be up next or after Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by RikkCavalier

Second, do they not plan to implement Leviathan as a primal? Last time I checked, he was water-based. What are they going to do when they add him? Make him ice?? It's absurd.

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Uh, pretty sure in FFXI Leviathan not only had water based attacks he also has a water based healing ability, therefore the lack of water nukes for players doesn't mean anything in regard to enemies.

Go figure that they may just be talking about players not having water based nukes....C`mon people..

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Then you'd also be asking them to completely destroy the lore of Conjurer as well. Remember, Conjurer is not White Mage.... White Mage is White Mage.

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Conjurer is not a black mage either. Conjurer was a Summoner who had summons linked to White and Black magic in a previous FF game, therefore they could have easily taken the class either way, guess which way they chose?

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Conjurer is not a black mage either. Conjurer was a Summoner who had summons linked to White and Black magic in a previous FF game, therefore they could have easily taken the class either way, guess which way they chose?

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Yes, Conjurer leans in favor of White Mage, but Conjurer is still its own entity and deserves to still be a soloable class as a Conjurer as that is what the classes are still there for. As a mage in tune with the elements it still deserves to have some semblance of an elementalist. Leave it be with Aero and Stone, they've had enough butchering as it is.

I just expect for debuffing to go SOMEWHERE and not that yoshi thinks fights are too quick for them to be any helpful. 'Cause I'm hating this gather up 6 mobs and spam AOEs crap.

All the changes seem pretty exciting and enfeebling actions have been switched to combo bonus. I doubt we will get a class specifically to enfeeble, that would be really boring. I will be glad to first try out the changes before I complain it will nto work.

um...yeah we need those enfeebling spells...why would you take those out...? You know I do trust you devs you have done great things so far. But it's really hard to see your ideas when you take away a bunch of your stuff then don't tell us why..

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Final Fantasy 1 spells had Fire, Ice, Thunder only.

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Harm?

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Edit2: Water came in FF8 but was useless back then.

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As far as I can remember it was very nice to defeat Cactuar GF with. Water was usually around in form of Aqua Rake or Aqualung, El Nino too.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Uh, pretty sure in FFXI Leviathan not only had water based attacks he also has a water based healing ability, therefore the lack of water nukes for players doesn't mean anything in regard to enemies.

Go figure that they may just be talking about players not having water based nukes....C`mon people..

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So you think mob's having water based attack spells when player's DO NOT is somehow fair? And you somehow missed my point. That was my whole point, we should have water based damage spells for mobs with a weakness to water. If they implement Leviathan, or any mob that's water based (which they already have, crabs, water elementals, the list goes on etc), we should have water for mobs that are weak to water. THAT is fair.

I'll say it a third time so my point is clear ... lol... we should have water if they are water mobs in the game.

Why even get worked up over a water spell... its water... are you getting too thirsty in uldah? when was the last time someone was injured having a ball of water dropped on them?

I have a personal water spell i use on my kids all the time. i wash my hands, leave them dripping, then flick my fingers at them simultaneously saying "WATER SPELL!" and man does this work. send them running and flinching everytime. maybe there is something to needing a water spell....

anyone else notice how petty some of these posts are "I want my water spell!" "Jumping ruins my immersion!" well go jump into a lake, you will be immersed...

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Originally Posted by RikkCavalier

So you think mob's having water based attack spells when player's DO NOT is somehow fair? And you somehow missed my point. That was my whole point, we should have water based damage spells for mobs with a weakness to water. If they implement Leviathan, or any mob that's water based (which they already have, crabs, water elementals, the list goes on etc), we should have water for mobs that are weak to water. THAT is fair.

I'll say it a third time so my point is clear ... lol... we should have water if they are water mobs in the game.

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And we will have water, but not with our current class actions. It's not like we will never have access to Water spells ever again, and as much as it sucks, we will wait for them to come .

Also, some elements being more common / useful to enemies than they are to players is not a new concept in RPGs as a whole, not only final fantasy. Go ahead and name me a few rpgs where Darkness moves are not only common for players, but also has plenty of enemies weak to it outside of specific, key monsters.

Now name a few RPGs that have a ****load of darkness based enemies.

Cure is water guys, jeez.

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Originally Posted by Drogo

Cure is water guys, jeez.

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Guess no one played the Tales Of series. I kinda guessed right away that Cure was the water spell when I saw the changes and noticed there was no water attack

inb4TalesOfisNotFF,Iknow

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Originally Posted by RikkCavalier

So you think mob's having water based attack spells when player's DO NOT is somehow fair?

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No one complained about Sephiroth using Super Nova and player's couldn't. It's not unheard of for enemies to have access to things players don't in any kind of game genre, that's usually what makes an enemy different from player characters outside of appearance.

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we should have water if they are water mobs in the game.

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We do, it's just not attack magic. Unless Square truly dropped the ball on elemental wheel, everything will have secondary and tertiary weaknesses but one that is it's main weakness, that's obvious, but the wheel is a bit different in FFXIV and "fairness" is probably one of the oddest things to say when it comes to enemies and players.

I should be able to slam my ass on the ground and one shot enemies with low defense and HP counts then. Ogres can do it, so I should be able to right? That's fair.

Even some older FF games you didn't control all elements because they opted for a Non-elemental type spell, "Dark" has always been one of the odd man out spells in FF games which while they existed, they were never standard spells for players, usually enemies and even then it was given to Blue Mages/Enemy Skill materia.

Yea I think some of you are getting a little over enthusiastic about this.

Like I said before the removal of Shell is a much bigger issue than a lack of Water based damage spells and enfeebles.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Uh...but at least as of 1.20 and 1.21, there will be no way to deal water damage at all, unless there's either a trait or they bring back elemental damage on weapons. That's 3+ months playing with a "broken" elemental wheel.

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Beyond staves and weapons with water affinity, no, as far as I know.

I'm more talking about the people that seem to think that we can't have an elemental wheel containing water if a mage job doesn't get Water. And some of them seem to think this will be the case forever.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea I think some of you are getting a little over enthusiastic about this.

Like I said before the removal of Shell is a much bigger issue than a lack of Water based damage spells and enfeebles.

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So they are removing slow, paralyze, poison, etc. AND removing shell? I understand that they probably have a long-term plan in mind, but it just seems broken to me. If they are planning on releasing another mage class, it seems that hinting along those lines could have saved a lot of frustration, confusion, and complaining. I'm really not sure about a lot of the changes they are planning to make to the current classes. I guess it's a wait and see kind of issue, but I wish they wouldn't be so cryptic about it all (yeah, I know, we're talking about SE here).

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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No water attack spells? THM does Fire/Ice/Lighting?
Then why is the highest level craftable 1-Haned THM weapon a Water Brand?
http://ffxiv.yg.com/item/water-brand?id=5020215
Attack Magic Potency +22
Water Magic Potency +11
Water Resistance +11

That really helps the THM/Black Mage at being nuker....

Just something noticed and found to be odd.

come on SE listen to these people. wave your magic wand and have everything fixed all at once. what is taking so long?

oh, you mean you have to change codes and test stability and can only do so much with the teams you have and you are already making your fingers bleed and are working around the clock? harumph, not good enough for these people.

/sarcasm off

I would love to be able to assist in any way i can to help them make the changes they are working on. especially i would love to help with english voiceovers to make more of this game talk. is there any way i can apply for that?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Blind is there, Heavy(Gravity) is there, Bind is there, Stun is there, Sleepga is there.

They don't need to actually do anything for media and people like you to twist the info as if they were.

Generic FF debuffs do not make the game any more complex.

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I know right 90% of the ppl complaining about debuff's hardly use them. Why spend 3 seconds casting poison when you can kill it with a nuke.

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I thought the idea of all those changes was to make game more final fatasy-ish... A FF without poison spell or slow? You must be kidding Rukki...

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You guys need to get XI out of your fkin head do i need to go down the list of FF where water was an basic spell.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I know right 90% of the ppl complaining about debuff's hardly use them. Why spend 3 seconds casting poison when you can kill it with a nuke.

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I don't think I have ever really used debuffs in FF games (Exceptions being in FFX and FFVII, for FFX bosses debuffs were a HUGE help and in FFVII I really just used minipulate a lot for grinding.) they just aren't that reliable. Why spend time and MP getting all the debuffs you can on a mob when you can 1 shot it with a spell?

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Originally Posted by Bowen

I don't think I have ever really used debuffs in FF games (Exceptions being in FFX and FFVII, for FFX bosses debuffs were a HUGE help and in FFVII I really just used minipulate a lot for grinding.) they just aren't that reliable. Why spend time and MP getting all the debuffs you can on a mob when you can 1 shot it with a spell?

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That is true and its the same in this game Slow does shit in this game and i mean shit!!!!! Gravity and bind were both useless cause fkin Mobs have Ranged attack, and then paralyze the spells sucks but the potions worked better than the spell lol, then he we have the dia and absorb def and bio and absorb attack, all four them are ass mobs still hit you like a truck regardless, and the def down does not help as much.

IF debuff's was as potent was there were in XI maybe i would crying with he rest of them but since they are not who cares

Debuffs matter when fighting big, high HP mobs in long drawn out fights.

But hey, in long, drawn out fights you have more chances to combo those debuffs on mobs instead of casting the debuffs right away.

Melee-ers and DDs do the jobs of the enfeeblers in this case. What do the mages do then? Spend MP on cures, enhancing (what little of it we have) and doing damage.

I think the game flow is reminiscent of FFXII more than FFXI, and I like FFXII's game flow/pace in combat.

Speaking of FFXII, that game was also lacking in Water, Wind and especially Earth spells. In fact, the last had NO spells which the character could cast; water only had Water, with enemies able to cast Watera and Waterga; and wind having Aero and Aeroga, lacking Aerora. Fire had four spells to it, five if you included Flare (which was actually non-elemental): Fire, Fira, Firaga and Ardor, the last which was potentially the most damaging spell in the game. And consideringhow many water weak monsters there were in FFXII, and thus resistant to fire, it was pretty unbalanced, but did itnot work? The elements in FFXII functioned perfectly, even as unbalanced as they were, and I don't see why the same can't happen here.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Speaking of FFXII, that game was also lacking in Water, Wind and especially Earth spells. In fact, the last had NO spells which the character could cast; water only had Water, with enemies able to cast Watera and Waterga; and wind having Aero and Aeroga, lacking Aerora. Fire had four spells to it, five if you included Flare (which was actually non-elemental): Fire, Fira, Firaga and Ardor, the last which was potentially the most damaging spell in the game. And consideringhow many water weak monsters there were in FFXII, and thus resistant to fire, it was pretty unbalanced, but did itnot work? The elements in FFXII functioned perfectly, even as unbalanced as they were, and I don't see why the same can't happen here.

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Well FFXII did have Quake, but it wasn't a spell. But yes, it worked perfectly fine. But I have to admit, Cure having an element is pretty cool. More materia to buff it with!

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Originally Posted by Elexia

No one complained about Sephiroth using Super Nova and player's couldn't. It's not unheard of for enemies to have access to things players don't in any kind of game genre, that's usually what makes an enemy different from player characters outside of appearance.



We do, it's just not attack magic. Unless Square truly dropped the ball on elemental wheel, everything will have secondary and tertiary weaknesses but one that is it's main weakness, that's obvious, but the wheel is a bit different in FFXIV and "fairness" is probably one of the oddest things to say when it comes to enemies and players.

I should be able to slam my ass on the ground and one shot enemies with low defense and HP counts then. Ogres can do it, so I should be able to right? That's fair.

Even some older FF games you didn't control all elements because they opted for a Non-elemental type spell, "Dark" has always been one of the odd man out spells in FF games which while they existed, they were never standard spells for players, usually enemies and even then it was given to Blue Mages/Enemy Skill materia.

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Your taking this way out of context, I never said being able to one-shot mobs like the ogres or anything like that. For the Sephiroth comment: Final Fantasy VII was a completely different game. (Although knights of the round coupled with the 4x materia is more powerful than SuperNova imo) Anyways, back on topic: All I'm saying is what the OP is. Why remove offensive water magic? It's funny how no one has a good explanation. And I'm not talking about cure.. I'm talking about offensive.

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Originally Posted by RikkCavalier

Your taking this way out of context, I never said being able to one-shot mobs like the ogres or anything like that. For the Sephiroth comment: Final Fantasy VII was a completely different game. (Although knights of the round coupled with the 4x materia is more powerful than SuperNova imo) Anyways, back on topic: All I'm saying is what the OP is. Why remove offensive water magic? It's funny how no one has a good explanation. And I'm not talking about cure.. I'm talking about offensive.

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Here is my best guesstimation, and obviously it means naught as I am not a mouth piece for the Devs nor SE. They are choosing to give this game a more 'Final Fantasy' feel. It seems they are drawing inspirations from earlier in the FF series, more specifically Final Fantasy III. Water exists in the game, but now in the form of healing. Yoshi once spoke of his interest (to return this to a FF feel), and mentioned the crystal tower. WHM/CON will have control over wind magic - this, much like crystal tower, appeared in Final Fantasy III.

I'm drawing conclusions based on what was said, and what we currently know now. Whether that is a good explanation based on conjecture, even if it proves to be the actual reasoning, is still a personal call.

No more enfeebling magic???

please... you say you want to build this game along with players but when it comes to important matters like you don't even ask what the community thinks and this is a mistake

ok, do any of you seriously think that they are removing water and debuffs permanently? give your head a shake. what is the time mage? red mage? wouldnt it make sense to save these magics for those classes? if not then what would be the point of even having these as jobs if they are skills from a class? all this whining on the forums makes me sick.

Props to SE for putting up with all this.

So we'll just twiddle our thumbs against enemies weak to water? This is assuming they don't poke at the elemental wheel.

let me put it this way, they are doing what they can with what they have, they have recognized that major changes to the server and the core programming needs to be overhauled. if you read any of the dev comments they have mentioned the cost vs reward for making some big changes just arent worth it at this time.

lets say you have an old 1980 ford POS truck, you want it to run better but you know you are going to be buying a brand new off the line 2012 model in a years time. sure you will want to make some small changes (oil filter, carburetor, maybe a muffler) but would you really want to go through the trouble of putting in a brand new transmission and engine when what you have will work until your new truck get here?

are there any battles right now that cannot possibly be surmounted if there is no water spell or enfeebling magic? if the answer is yes, then tell SE and they will make adjustments to compensate, if the answer is no then i rest my case.