Yoshi-P on Character Growth

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Or maybe, just maybe, they like the current system and disagree with your "interesting" ideas. Nonetheless, forum representation of any game is a decidedly minority. And even then, different forums have different stances. For instance, the FFXIV reddit community is far less negative than this board. Your opinions are just that: opinions. Don't presume they are unique just because you fancy them. I, for one, found Black Desert boring. You said in another thread you liked it. To me, BDO is a boring grindfest to you it may be something else. That's okay. We just have different interests.

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I've come to terms that nothing we say will ever happen and as I've said already I will play to enjoy the story and the few fluff they add then unsub until the next patch. Ill get my last Vet reward since those will be ending as well and enjoy other games and give my money elsewhere.

And i agree with you on BDO but something still draws me to it but the RNG can suck it.

Yoshi's right in terms of the big picture, think of a MMO like running a casino: you don't give comps to the shark big-time winners, you give comps to the casual big losers. Why: because they are much more in need of something to keep their interest (and give you money) than the sharks (the sharks already will stay because they win).

Consequently, there's not enough marginal benefit from attempting to pander the "raiders" or whatever other designation you give to the hardcore folks. Even if they burn through content real quick (cause they hardcore), they are going to do that no matter what and they'll come back on a fairly regular basis. On the other hand, focusing on the hardcore risks a total collapse: the hardcore people (borrowing someone else's quote) burn through content faster than normal human levels no matter what and there will be high attrition from everyone else (because they're going to get gated hard). Hence you lose the "hardcore bored" people AND everyone else, a classic double negative.

Yeah I don't like the sounds of the FFXI system. Swapping gear in combat just sounds cumbersome. I don't think that multiple gear sets is a necessity with horizontal progression, that said I am also not opposed to (or for) the idea of having multiple gearsets - FFXIV has a system already in place to pretty easily change your gear.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

Yoshi's right in terms of the big picture, think of a MMO like running a casino: you don't give comps to the shark big-time winners, you give comps to the casual big losers. Why: because they are much more in need of something to keep their interest (and give you money) than the sharks (the sharks already will stay because they win).

Consequently, there's not enough marginal benefit from attempting to pander the "raiders" or whatever other designation you give to the hardcore folks. Even if they burn through content real quick (cause they hardcore), they are going to do that no matter what and they'll come back on a fairly regular basis. On the other hand, focusing on the hardcore risks a total collapse: the hardcore people (borrowing someone else's quote) burn through content faster than normal human levels no matter what and there will be high attrition from everyone else (because they're going to get gated hard). Hence you lose the "hardcore bored" people AND everyone else, a classic double negative.

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I agree with your post, but I don't see how providing character progression beyond max level counts as designing content for raiders. That would be content for everyone, and I am confident some raiders would love it, some would hate it, some non-raiders would love it and some non-raiders would hate it.

Interestingly, from my perspective, this game already designs pretty heavily around raiding. Once you are max level there is very little to do (combat-wise) outside of raiding. Most non-raiding content is non-combat related (gold saucer, mini games, crafting, gathering, housing etc.)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Not sure why people would have multiple gear sets with the addition of horizontal progression. Is this an FFXI thing?

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Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Interestingly, from my perspective, this game already designs pretty heavily around raiding.

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Having not played a while, I am basically a new player.

Businesses only really care about two kinds of people: (1) new customers, and (2) the really big spending customers. Lets assume that a business can only devote sufficient resources (i.e. attention and service) to one group. Sub MMOs care most about new customers. Why? Because there aren't really any big spending customers; the sub model puts a natural cap on the amount you can get from one person. Hence, quantity is needed to profit. In contrast, F2P is all about getting and pandering to the whale hardcore players: you aren't getting money from a lot of people playing for free, so F2P has to pander to hardcore people dumping lots of cash.

Hence, for a sub game like FF14, there is just not enough upside to try to pander to the "raiders" and add more gates; if anything, SE should go drastically in the other direction if AS is as punitive as people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

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That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

That's not at all what I think of with horizontal progression. FFXI lasted as long as it did at the same level cap with the core concept of sidegrades. These were not necessary things to get because they were not upgrades. They were different options to reach the same end. They were usually extremely minor upgrades at best, or sometimes extremely slightly inferior.

The whole system is based around the lack of having to upgrade, and is exactly the kind of thing that Yoshi was talking about that he wants in XIV and says he's doing with ilvl but isn't, because the ilvl system requires you to go out and get that piece of gear, the very thing he said he doesn't want.

XI's gear swapping during combat is a completely separate thing, and was definitely a negative of the game.

Basically, it is a desire to have ilvl tiers last longer than they do.

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Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Then what incentive does this provide? Why farm whatever content for negligible upgrades or downright inferior gear unless it's for glamour? Furthermore, if we do not have to upgrade constantly, how do you then incentivize people to do content? Just a throw away example, say they removed weekly caps. I guarantee people would grind out exactly the amount they needed for progression/glamour then never touch the roulette again. Now I know you didn't reference that specifically, but when changing a system, you need to consider how to ensure people will still do the content consistently because you'll always have a flux of newer players and you don't want them trapped in hour long queues.

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It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

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I wouldn't want to see FFXI style gearing in FFXIV. This is what kind of turned FFXI into a chat room and lead a lot of people to not do the new content. Horizontal progression is an oxymoron it doesn't really exist what FFXI had was vertical progression on a very small scale. What you already said the upgrades were minor. For example FFXI came out with a medium difficulty event Salvage. It had drop rates on nms in the zone in the range of around 1%. I actually knew people who killed this turtle NM 300+ times for the monk body. But the itemization was that a several of the pieces were worse had worse stats then gear from 6 years ago that dropped from Sky or hnms, however about half of those pieces of gear that were very slightly better maybe had 1-3 more attack or accuracy or 1% more haste something really small. The hard core playerbase in FFXI were like yea I am going to run Salvage daily even though it has 1% drop rates for those really small upgrades which may effect character damage by around 1% but its best in slot. However the more casual players were like I am not doing this it doesn't offer a big enough upgrade I am good with my sky gear from 6 years ago.

So for these players who didn't want to run the new content for the small upgrades they quit never bought the next expansion which was Wings of the Goddess. Some of them just logged in the game used it as a chat room. Many people will not do content with really small upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

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Here too you're talking about something entirely different. The drop rate has nothing to do with the gearing system. The rate of gear acquisition doesn't have to change from what we have now on FF14.

Changing to a "more options" system doesn't mean "We're going to make this exactly like FFXI so you're going to have a 1% drop rate to get this piece of gear."

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Here too you're talking about something entirely different. The drop rate has nothing to do with the gearing system. The rate of gear acquisition doesn't have to change from what we have now on FF14.

Changing to a "more options" system doesn't mean "We're going to make this exactly like FFXI so you're going to have a 1% drop rate to get this piece of gear."

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A lot of people didn't do the content like Salvage because it had maybe 1 or 2 more attack on the gear form what they already had. Wasn't that it was 1% drop rates alone. It was the super small upgrades that people didn't feel like was worth their time.

The FFXIV equivalent example if they used the FFXI system "SE adds the next alexander raid. For the most part half the gear is worse then the previous alexander raid, but half the gear has maybe 5 more crit, or 5 determination on it but overall has similar stats to what they already released. You have to learn new fights spend a lot of time to get gear that you won't see a huge increase on damage at all."

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Originally Posted by Zumi

A lot of people didn't do the content like Salvage because it had maybe 1 or 2 more attack on the gear form what they already had. Wasn't that it was 1% drop rates alone. It was the super small upgrades that people didn't feel like was worth their time.

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It wasn't worth their time because of the 1% drop rate though. If it's easy to acquire, time isn't much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

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Ok, but if they kept the gear acquisition the same but it was all horizontal, and new higher level gear only came once a year. What happens when your already gotten "decently" good gear in a few weeks? You dont need gear any more, so why keep playing?

More options would be nice, but I can't see it changing anything up.

So a game that offers character builds and such takes to much time and Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it? What? Diablo 3 and even the Borderlands series are very time friendly and I'd even say they don't get that involved with their builds until about half way through the level cap, similar how 14 doesn't really pick up until 30.

It seems to me that Yoshi just doesn't have the drive to add builds and elements into this game, he maybe trying to please every crowd this game has, so why not release some side content that does builds? I mean if people can get a RP icon next to their name, I don't see how they couldn't add a new game type.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It opens up the ability to gear up multiple jobs. Hardcore/world-firsters can go for that slight upgrade. More casual players can go for their choice of content, even if it's slightly inferior, because it's good enough.

One example we already have is our 24-man raids. They're clearly inferior yet people do them anyway. Under a more horizonal system, it wouldn't be inferior; it would be on par.

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We can already do that. No content outside Savage requires even ilvl 250 gear. In fact, I'll almost certainly be doing Sophia EX at ilvl 234.

And how many people complain that invalidates the rewards for clearing Savage? People do 24-man raids because it's a necessity to upgrade your gear from ilvl 230 to 240. If you only needed lore to buy ilvl 240. WC might well be dead content on the basis of how mechanically intensifying it can get. People generally gravitate towards the path of least resistance. If you make it so everything drops similar gear, the easiest means of obtaining it will be what content gets done.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

We can already do that. No content outside Savage requires even ilvl 250 gear. In fact, I'll almost certainly be doing Sophia EX at ilvl 234.

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So then why do people even bother playing then if they don't need the gear?

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

everyone's efforts are rewarded.

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Actually your efforts mean nothing really. I can log in, do expert, log out, come the next day and repeatedly do that just to get the latest tome gear, making doing anything else like materia melding pointless. because the standard stats from that gear is all you need to do anything. Or I could sit around and wait for the hunt ls to go off and kill them while watching netflix and meet my daily cap quickly. Strongest gear now with perfect melds? Next patch you'll just be standard, nice job on that raid clear btw, shame your gear is now 10ilvls lower than the new tome gear ;)

It all really makes sense to just to sub when a new patch drops. :/

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So then why do people even bother playing then if they don't need the gear?

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Just to do story and look pretty by bashing your head in unison with your teammates for some fancy new duds I guess. :/

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So then why do people even bother playing then if they don't need the gear?

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Some do it purely for fun, others for the rewards. Dungeons are done because tomestone gear is the best means of progression outside Savage. What you're purposing is multiple avenues to achieve the same result. We've seen them attempt this in smaller doses (Aquapolis, Beast Tribes and etc). But doing so with gear is just going to push people in the easiest direction. If my goal is to clear The Creator Savage, I want the fastest way possible to obtain necessary gear. If it came from say, PotD. Then I'll skip dungeons outside running them a couple times for fun because they don't offer what I'm looking for in terms of progression.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Some do it purely for fun, others for the rewards. Dungeons are done because tomestone gear is the best means of progression outside Savage. What you're purposing is multiple avenues to achieve the same result. We've seen them attempt this in smaller doses (Aquapolis, Beast Tribes and etc). But doing so with gear is just going to push people in the easiest direction. If my goal is to clear The Creator Savage, I want the fastest way possible to obtain necessary gear. If it came from say, PotD. Then I'll skip dungeons outside running them a couple times for fun because they don't offer what I'm looking for in terms of progression.

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Actually I'm proposing multiple sources that come later to obtain the same level of gear; gear that we aren't going to need, because we already have more or less equivalent gear. But you already explained that we don't need gear in our current system, so I fail to see how not needing the gear is a negative.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Actually I'm proposing multiple sources that come later to obtain the same level of gear; gear that we aren't going to need, because we already have more or less equivalent gear. But you already explained that we don't need gear in our current system, so I fail to see how not needing the gear is a negative.

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And like I said. How will this incentive people to farm for said gear outside glamour if it accomplishes nothing? Case in point, the two new dungeons will drop ilvl 235 gear. I'll either GC it or pass on everything that doesn't look pretty. Why? It does nothing for me. Furthermore, if say, ilvl 260 gear is obtainable outside The Creator Normal, and through an easier piece of content. People will spam that instead.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

So a game that offers character builds and such takes to much time and Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it? What? Diablo 3 and even the Borderlands series are very time friendly and I'd even say they don't get that involved with their builds until about half way through the level cap, similar how 14 doesn't really pick up until 30.

It seems to me that Yoshi just doesn't have the drive to add builds and elements into this game, he maybe trying to please every crowd this game has, so why not release some side content that does builds? I mean if people can get a RP icon next to their name, I don't see how they couldn't add a new game type.

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Because the RP icon is a simple UI feature. Character builds necessitate an entire addendum to the character menu infrastructure and basically overhauls progression as a whole. Not only would that impact everyone by design, the cost would be exceptionally high. You're comparing two completely different concepts-- one that requires significantly greater resources.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How will this incentive people to farm for said gear outside glamour if it accomplishes nothing?

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It doesn't have to, because we already don't have incentive to do content. Yet people do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually your efforts mean nothing really. I can log in, do expert, log out, come the next day and repeatedly do that just to get the latest tome gear, making doing anything else like materia melding pointless. because the standard stats from that gear is all you need to do anything. Or I could sit around and wait for the hunt ls to go off and kill them while watching netflix and meet my daily cap quickly. Strongest gear now with perfect melds? Next patch you'll just be standard, nice job on that raid clear btw, shame your gear is now 10ilvls lower than the new tome gear ;)

It all really makes sense to just to sub when a new patch drops. :/

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everyone can play like they want , no one is forcing u to stay subbed :P
also i prefer new gear every 3 months, then running around in the same gear for 1 year ^^
but guess tastes are different :P

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

everyone can play like they want , no one is forcing u to stay subbed :P
also i prefer new gear every 3 months, then running around in the same gear for 1 year ^^
but guess tastes are different :P

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What you Just Said is actually the same if you think about it, Just slightly less cosmetic unless you dont like the raider gear, plus higher ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually your efforts mean nothing really. It all really makes sense to just to sub when a new patch drops. :/

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Wow. You must be a real pleasure to play with, I guess. Different people enjoy different things. So what if people enjoy actually playing the game? All efforts towards gaming mean nothing unless you have a monetized YouTube account, yet people still play cause it's fun.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It doesn't have to, because we already don't have incentive to do content. Yet people do it anyway.

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Yes, we do.

You cap tomestones every week for better gear
You farm the extreme primal for a weapon upgrade
You farm Alexander normal to further upgrade your gear
You attempt Savage for BiS

A 24-man raid is subsequently added for those who struggled with Savage earlier and need higher ilvls to ease the process. If we had ilvl 270 gear to everything, albeit with negligible stat differences. Why do half that content? One of the primary complaints regarding Savage outside its difficulty is the lackluster rewards. Making near equivalent gear easily obtainable would only further diminish the investment.

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

What you Just Said is actually the same if you think about it, Just slightly less cosmetic unless you dont like the raider gear, plus higher ilvl.

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maybe , with the only difference that i play the game coz i like it , also to play with friends and keep contanct to em :P
not just for my personall character progress ilvl :P

also i craft to , so have enough stuff to do and gathering :P

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, we do.

You cap tomestones every week for better gear
You farm the extreme primal for a weapon upgrade
You farm Alexander normal to further upgrade your gear
You attempt Savage for BiS

A 24-man raid is subsequently added for those who struggled with Savage earlier and need higher ilvls to ease the process.

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None of this would change with the proposed system.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

What about gardering, what about getting the tomestone gear, what about the x.x5 suff? ( anima, podt, orther possible new content )
What about GC? the more you play the better your garrisons will be...
what about wonders tails, what happens if you miss the chanse of getting a very nice rewards?

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There is a problem with every content you mention.
What is their reward ? If it's cosmetic, most peope won't care. If it's gear, it will automatically be weaker than Tome gear and raid gear. And in one month, you can grind enough tome (capped and uncapped) to faceroll everything except raid. Of course, you won't have BiS gear, but you won't care either.

The worst part on gear reward is that if you quit the game for 6 months and come back, then you'll obtain the new Tome gear at the same rate as those who played constantly while skipping the intermediate gear because it has become worthless.

The "good" thing about horizontal progression is that most gear will stay relevant throughout the expansion.

I'd like to see the entire roulette df tab to be removed. Players that get dropped into a dungeon they hate or tired of doing is not a real good strategy for player retention. They'll start the bad habit of doing the bare minimum roulette per day and log off anyway. And then sooner or later not log on at all.

Instead, increase the baseline tome rewards per dungeon, remove stupid penalties/caps/weekly lockouts, and let players gear up their alts faster.

I'd love a gear system like Monster Hunter, I felt it was a nice balance between horizontal and vertical progression.

You could take the horizontal path and get mutliple armors to make specific fights easier, or you could go vertical, and stick with one armor set for everything and just keep upgrading that.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

None of this would change with the proposed system.

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They would just be rendered pointless. I'll reiterate. Your proposal would put ilvl 270 in multiple pieces of content from the onset. What motivation do I now have to do The Creator normal beyond achievement farming? I can get ilvl 270 gear in faceroll dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

I'd like to see the entire roulette df tab to be removed. Players that get dropped into a dungeon they hate or tired of doing is not a real good strategy for player retention. They'll start the bad habit of doing the bare minimum roulette per day and log off anyway. And then sooner or later not log on at all.

Instead, increase the baseline tome rewards per dungeon, remove stupid penalties/caps/weekly lockouts, and let players gear up their alts faster.

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And in doing so guarantee players grind out the latest tomestone within a week and never do those dungeons again. To cite myself the example. I can and would spam whatever dungeon netted me the highest Scripture tomes, get my gear and never do any of them again except on the occasional whim. Or I'll farm The Creator Normal day one, get everything there and also never touch it again. Weekly caps exist to ensure people still do content because they wouldn't otherwise.

Yoshi P sure loves to give exagerate examples in that reply.
In all fariness this game is on a very easy difficulty aside from savage content and the current ex primal. I'm almost positive because of that he reply he truly has no clue about whats going on with the playerbase.
You cannot continue to punish the players who love your game the most on the behalf of the socalled casuals who deserve to always catch up with doing half the work you did just because they pay for a sub.
You can make certain things a bit harder to obtain it doesnt need to be ilvl it can be something that requires a slight amount of timesink that can show that you can be rewarded for putting time and effort in.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

maybe , with the only difference that i play the game coz i like it , also to play with friends and keep contanct to em :P
not just for my personall character progress ilvl :P

also i craft to , so have enough stuff to do and gathering :P

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You didn't get my point so I'll try be a bit better at it.
Even when you have the gear from the beginning, its not relevant, because it's really only needed for savage. There is no growth or progression there at all. There is no personal progress with iLvl either. There is no progress when you can't hit a better level or anything like that, after let's said savage raid. What does progress mean? You move forward a goal or want to pass that goal on a higher goal.
1 year gear with different stats and different ways to gear up or progress character/growth is more than the current iLvl system offers. Same can be said with crafting, you have a gap and need to follow it, the gap is pretty much saying: it stops here and you cannot grow your character anymore.

To add a question, do you think you need the iLvl gear to do dungeons? Crafter gear is different because you need a certain stat to hit the thing.

Now my second question is, what does the daily game life look for you in the game?

Well, technically, you do need the ilvl to do dungeons or you can't run it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Well, technically, you do need the ilvl to do dungeons or you can't run it in the first place.

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Yes and no. Previous max iLvl (isn't it 240 now?) and you can probably do the new ones around 220-230? Which is about 6 months old gear, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not even there yet, just things I read on. So do you really need iLvl 270 to run those dungeons? Doubt it. And this is a problem a lot of peopel speak of, you can basically be geared like a person who doesn't raid, well not fully bis but iLvl you can be on their iLvl without doing any effort. It's like log in>roulette>log out> log in. But then the person scratches their head, why did I do that., when I know the gear I will obtain wont even give me any big benefit, unless I raid. See their point now?

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

[...] when I know the gear I will obtain wont even give me any big benefit, unless I raid. See their point now?

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Not exactly, because gear beyond the minimum exists to make things easier and faster. That's a general thing - a raider who successfully clears a raid certainly doesn't need any better gear from that raid, because he's just proven he can do it without. It only serves to clear the raid again, easier and faster. The deeper irony here is that the worse a player is, the better gear he would 'need' for any given content to compensate - hence, unsynced coil clear rates now are miles and bounds higher than when it was recent. If we were going by "need" and benefits, you'd have to give the suckiest players the best gear and the best players the worst gear. Now that's a huuugely popular idea, right?

That aside, progression, the feeling of getting stronger, is considered a positive thing in its own right by many. Cookie clicker works on a that principle - the plain desire to increase an arbitrary number, the cookie count in that case. It's a very minimalistic game, if it can even be called a game in the first place. But nevertheless, it got quite successful. And that's what the progression system tries to emulate.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Not exactly, because gear beyond the minimum exists to make things easier and faster. That's a general thing - a raider who successfully clears a raid certainly doesn't need any better gear from that raid, because he's just proven he can do it without. It only serves to clear the raid again, easier and faster. The deeper irony here is that the worse a player is, the better gear he would 'need' for any given content to compensate

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Yes, but most of the players doesnt raid from what ive seen. Not to sound like a complete asshole but gear often doesnt fix peoples bad play.