Good point. Also note that the jobs will be added in 1.21 so... yeah if they decide to get rid of the wyvern then they might have to rework the class all over again which can delay the patch release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon
Dragoon Poll (Should DRG have a Wyvern?)
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11-05-2011, 01:44 PMSevokevo_Royuki
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11-05-2011, 01:50 PMKeith_DragoonNo, you got it backwards, the Dragoon we are getting in 1.21 will be the Dragoon that everyone seems to be in favor of. If however the demand for a Wyvern is still strong by the time they get the pet AI working and prepare to release BST and SMN we MIGHT get a quest for our beloved Wyvern then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevokevo_Royuki
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11-05-2011, 02:11 PMKailea_Nagisa
eh screw all that, just make Dragoon like this and be done with it ^.^
This is not an official Dragoon, but how the story is, and weapon used, it does have the Dragoon spirit.
http://youtu.be/xi_YicvpPcA?t=4m9s -
11-05-2011, 02:16 PMSevokevo_RoyukiHAHA Nice I love it.. Nice reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa
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11-05-2011, 02:21 PMSilvertearRenSevokevo, I think the main problem is that the majority do not want Dragoon to be categorized as a "pet class". Hence the votes. That's the problem here. Many of us do not want to see the stats balance get screwed over just because we have access to a companion pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevokevo_Royuki
Which is why I am advocating, if Wyverns become implemented, that they be classified primarily as a mount, and not as a combat companion. That way, the Wyverns are balanced in the same way as the Chocobo system as part of a mount/pet system that applies across the board.
Someone else has already said it, but I'll repeat it again: You have it backwards. The Pet system is not being implemented pre-2.0, and if you had kept that in mind when making your arguments, you would have realized by now that Dragoons would be implemented in 1.21 without a pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevokevo_Royuki
Yoshi-P's statement was more or less about prototyping the concept of a Wyvern pet for Dragoon and exploring alternatives that do not damage the Dragoon's balance between 1.21 implementation and 2.0 implementation.
Do you understand?
P.S. To explain what I mean by prototyping, you take pre-existing resources and build some basic code around it, as well as other necessary building blocks to make the concept work in the most basic sense. Take the mob-mount videos for example, did anyone notice how the poses were all static, and that the mobs' animations were the same as the pre-existing mobs in the game? (Flapping animation of the Ahriman is the same, the walking animation of the Drake is the same.)
Prototyping is basically to build a proof-of-concept and test it to see how it works. You can't make a game without prototyping these days. -
11-05-2011, 02:22 PMTyroSooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! no single Dragoon in FF history had a wyvern... just in FFXIQuote:
Originally Posted by indira
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11-05-2011, 02:23 PMTyro
I'm cool is Wyvern is just a mount, but only that... no damage or anything involved.
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11-05-2011, 02:28 PMKeith_DragoonHe may decide against the nerfing of our stats if we all stand in support against that part and that part alone instead of shunning off the whole pet part because of a unconfirmed possibility instead of telling Yoshi P "hey we ould like a pet but we DO NOT want to be weakend because of it!" I noticed it is his going thing to nerf things before changing them just like how he said If we wanted a longer protect duraction they were looking into reducing the ffect but increasing the duration instead of just making it last longer with the same effect with a higher recast and mp cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertearRen
Do not let a random mental concept turn you away from the possibility of us having a pet while not losing our strentgh -
11-05-2011, 02:30 PMSilvertearRenI'd rather be playing FFXIV Dragoon with the idea that I'm following in the footsteps of Kain Highwind or Freya, not McDragoon Wyvernshumper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon
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11-05-2011, 02:33 PMKeith_DragoonThat is incorrect... See below:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyro
It is proven that not only did Dragoons have a relation to Dragons it was also common-place for them to fight alongside Wyverns. The most referenced Dragoon Kain Highwind is the son of one of the FIRST Dragoons in the franchise and he fought alongside a Wyvern.Quote:
Google Facts
Final Fantasy II
In their first appearance, Dragoons are not a Job but a group of spear-wielding dragon riders who fought alongside wyverns. The Emperor killed off most of the group out of fear, leaving only Ricard Highwind and his adopted son, Kain.
While it is true when you took control of the characters they did not have one present does not mean they never had them. -
11-05-2011, 02:41 PMgiottoV
Please don't vote for a dragon pet. This isn't ffxi. if they approve of a dragon pet they are going to make dragoon weaker to balance the master-pet damage. Please don't vote.
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11-05-2011, 02:42 PMAlphaDragoonFlat out. Did Kain actually HAVE a pet in FFIV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon
No. Say no to pets, people. -
11-05-2011, 02:43 PMColinoExactly. When I think Dragoon, I think Kain.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertearRen
Not pet-dragon hugger XI or some obscure plot characters from FF2. -
11-05-2011, 02:46 PMAnonymooseFFII is terrible evidence, imho. Dragon-riding cavalry fighter is not equal to guy who fights with alongside a baby wyvern that breathes on stuff. Aside from the terminology, those things have absolutely nothing in common; even among FF tradition of Dragoons and their relationships with dragonkind, XI went rogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon
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11-05-2011, 02:49 PMgiottoVYou can't even barely call that a wyvern. Its a whelp. ffxi dragoon sucks! it sucked as a DD coz of the pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyro
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11-05-2011, 03:00 PMKailea_Nagisa
yeap the only thing I ever really hated about FFXI Dragoon, was that my pet was squishy and when it died....so did 1/3 my damage -.- I had many macros set up to play the abilities how I needed them to, in order to keep my pet alive the longest. spell/healing breath macros, equipment changing/ spirit surge macros, all kinds of creative things, but of course it dies.... and that 20 min time is not up, well I am 1/3 less powerful till that timer is up. Oh and if I am soloing and it dies.... well I am screwed ;p
To implement the Wyvern pet, would be to bring all the bad with it, as it was in FFXI, and I don't want to see a repeat. -
11-05-2011, 03:08 PMgiottoVNo We are not scared. Lancer is a cool job as is. It's just We dont want to see another ffxi dragoon. Seriously It's crap. FFxi dragoon already destroyed the real final fantasy dragoon by having a wyvern pet. CID, FREYA, KAIN, richard, kimahri never had dragons or wyvern to fight along side with them. FFXI ruined it coz they thought it'd be cool. as it turned out FFxi dragoon sucked and weak. It sucked as a DD, It sucked in balista it sucked everywhere. so why a repeat? just so some teenager wanted a freakin pet and got attached to its wyvern from ffxi? WTH?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex
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11-05-2011, 03:29 PMKeith_DragoonYou say FFII is a horrible example yet you link me to a post that compares Dragoon to a character from Dynasty Warriors. While I do loooove me some DW i fail to see how that is a better example then actual lore from the same franchise and related to the same job as we are discussing. Most of your points are decent if the Dragoons in FF were taken from the actual real life Dragoon Calvary which it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Dragoon is the english localization of Dragon Knight which was not brought over only for the fact that name lentgh conflicts and Dark Knight exists and you know how we loooove to abbreviate things. Dark Knight and Dragon Knight would both be condensed into D.Knight which is conflicting and could get confusing for some people. While in the lore Dragon knights do ride Dragons and Fight alongside Wyverns they are not mounted calvary who use range weapons named Dragons. the only real similarity is after the Napoleonic Wars they were trained to use lances.
As for Kain himself while he did not fight alongside a Wyvern in FFIV he did care for his father's Dragon who does not physically take place in the game. There is no proof for or against this so its best left in the dark. -
11-05-2011, 03:30 PMSilvertearRenI'd post a link to some inappropriate FFXI Dragoon-on-Wyvern imagery to perfectly illustrate this, but we have standards to maintain here. I'll just let you guys have that mental image.Quote:
Originally Posted by giottoV
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11-05-2011, 03:32 PMKeith_DragoonOh god please don't, I have mental pictures that can't be unseen now! ; ;Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertearRen
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11-05-2011, 03:33 PMgiottoV
dragoon would be cool if it will resemble its attack of dragons like fire breath, claw, some stuff like that but no dragon pet please. Or maybe It could have a pet but only as a mount or can take a spot only in a party and it will attack independently not as a pet. I really like lancers right now. It could do massive damage with critical. I should have leveled lancer instead of a PUG.
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11-05-2011, 04:00 PMSevokevo_Royuki
Ok Can people please stop telling other people not to vote for us to have them? Clearly that is trolling and you should not tell people what to do. It is what they want and of what they would like. As for what happens in the end.. its is up to Yoshi P so stop it with the "Ohg Wyverns suck so no one please do vote for them to be added" nonsense S**t.
As for some previous posts early yes I understand what you mean. I had a friend in my LS that explained it to me exactly what he meant. -
11-05-2011, 04:15 PMAnonymooseMan, people really love jumping on the Ma Chao reference. While that does make me proud that the rest of my points are all stronger than that, it's frustrating because it was a joke. I wasn't saying "Look how great a Dragoon Ma Chao is!" I was saying, "We can't leave it as simple as what I have so far, or we end up with Ma Chao." If I was serious, the caption under the image would not have been what it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon
The rest of your post, however, is exactly what I am saying from the other angle. Though what you are saying is correct as well, it adds no evidence whatsoever for them basically soul-bonding with a baby dragon and having the smaller, weaker creature fight alongside them.
Honestly, if a dragoon was truly that close to the dragonkind, I think he'd let the child stay with its parents and instead try to impress one he could actually ride and fight alongside HIM. Again, I don't see the ability to ride a dragon mount into battle happening in XIV. The other DD would just kind of look over and be like, "HEY GUYS! JIM'S GOT THIS ONE! LET'S GO BACK TO THE TAVERN!"
Still, mostly, this is about turning DRG into a pet class, which a lot of people seem to be against. DRGs seem ready to stand on their own, here, and I can see why.
Another pressing issue is that BST is going to be utilizing a lot fewer monsters in XIV, and may in fact actually only be using one from beginning to end (Yoshida touched on this, but didn't say whether WHICH you keep from beginning to end would vary by option at all). This being the case, playing DRG would end up being exactly the same as playing BST, mechanically speaking. That sounds counter-productive... -
11-05-2011, 04:18 PMEngineer
I was reading in another forum, and took some ideas that could work for this.
what if there were a Dragoon specific pet wyvern that you can get that would take up an extra party slot like the chocobo?
this way, the Dragoon can be strong, and have a pet for those that would rather use the wyvern instead of the chocobo in battle. so there is no pet linked to the dragoon job, its just a companion wyvern, not a pet wyvern so it would take up 1 party slot.
what do you guys think? -
11-05-2011, 04:29 PMAnonymooseOhai again! Multipost = multianswer... so you can skip this if you've already been to Dragoon Pet! I'll let you choose where you and I go back and forth, if that's something you've got in mind :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
I think that would give DRG way too big of an advantage over other players if not regulated to an EXTREME degree. Basically, a DRG would never not be a duo. Lowman? Bring DRG. Soloing? Go DRG. Have a gimp party member? Kick him and use DRG. I don't imagine that 4 chocobos would be more powerful than 4 party members, but if you're going for a zerg kill, four DRG makes a full party of ass-kickery.
They'd be nerfed in weeks. -
11-05-2011, 04:33 PMSilvertearRenThat could work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
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11-05-2011, 06:25 PMLiennI agree. I even commented this mechanics in this very topic a few pages ago. IMO the Wyvern should be linked to DRG though...no DRG = no way to summon the Wyvern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
Not really, Moose...fellow NPCs are in FFXI still and use this exact mechanics. Also the idea do is exactly what you said...it would be an option for low man PT, for soloing...in the end the wyvern would also have it's own gear, lv, xp, actions...it does would be a second character, even in very single aspect of it to a PC. If a DRG wanted a wyvern he would have to grind not only the LNC but also the wyvern...if you happen to access the wyvern summon action quest at LNC 50 only, it would be a doubled grind because you would need to do 1-50 with the wyvern after you already was LNC 50...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
I am all up for pets using party slots and being even to PC characters. This would be the main aspect pet classes from FFXI were lacking...the capacity of playing even to other classes without pet...because there they both used 1 slot so they total performance of player + pet had to be even to a petless character. -
11-05-2011, 07:24 PMReliquia1) Drg was the pet wyvern job in FFXI, we have identified with the jump, AF and class identity in general of the classical dragoon being the wyvern class. This was a step forwards even though it wasn't very well implemented in FFXI, they should improve it with FFXIV rather than going backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon
2) Don't mess with DRK. Drk should be that heavy DD with dark magic spells, not a pet job. How does it make sense to give DRK a wyvern? This is not where it "properly belongs".
The only ways of implementing a wyvern would be by either
a) Giving drg a wyvern. (which is where it belongs if implemented)
b) Making a new job, hopefully a second job for lancer. But then they would most likely not give them jump and drg AF, which is missing half the point of adding it in the first place for us who identified with how Drg was in FFXI.
Like I stated earlier, there are two full DD classes. Monk and Drg, why not separate them properly?
And if I understood it right from the interviews, Drg was getting the self combo system, why not make that for MNK? (seeing as there are more possible combos with 4 limbs than a lance). -
11-05-2011, 08:01 PMEsk
3:1 now if the pole is to be believed...
Still want to know what the JP/others are saying if anything on this. -
11-05-2011, 08:08 PMTonkrai think almost the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esk
the problem is more... the people want to have the choice to stick to their playstyle of the original class..
having for now just one job option (in the future there are planned at least 2 job choices for each class)
is the most problem. so its too early to implement hybrids like dragoon + wyvern pet... like its too early for the barde.
people who played the lancer want to stick to the pure wielding polearm class, not having a pet.
and archers for example want to stick to their (just shooting with bow "damage dealer role") playstyle, not having the supporter role as a barde.
Thats the really most problem i think... they should have first added jobs for thos classes for example "lancemaster" for lancer (which only wields poles thats it) and for archer for example thief (specified in bows/daggers/ and critical attack).
AND THEN later on with 2.0. implementing second jobs like dragoon+wyvern and barde for archer.
that would have been the better choice. -
11-05-2011, 08:39 PMZanfireid very much like to see what other regions think, especially JP (they really do have the biggest pull) For all we know its the opposite there, so if anyone can find out id like to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esk
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11-05-2011, 09:10 PMReliquiaI agree with everything that you've said. But the problem is however not that it's too early for hybrid classes, the problem is that the current job for for LNC is dragoon. If it was something like a lance knight it would be fine, because a lance knight can still wield a lance and be a full DD without a pet. However if you take away the wyvern from drg then we lose what we learned to love about the FFXI drg. Even by releasing a job in the future with a pet wyvern won't be the same without the drg look and abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
When it comes to bard it's pretty obvious. The class role system was very unbalanced, there is way too many DDs, and sadly ARC took the fall for it because someone had to. It is still unclear what the bard will be doing, but I guess it's going to work as a buf/debuf light DD. At the same time it is very unfair to make those who wanted a ARC/RNG class/job to play bard without offering a RNG for it first/simultaneously.
In the end the issues regarding both jobs are a result of class identity conflicts -
11-05-2011, 09:18 PMTonkrayou misssunterstood me. i almost meant the same. first they should have implemented the "standard" jobs, which fit more the role of the basic class.. and then for a second job option in 2.0. bard for archer and dragoon (with wyvern) would have been great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reliquia
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11-05-2011, 09:25 PMZanfirewe know they wont do that, its pretty clear that as DRG we either get a pet or not and im VERY much doubting they will add in somethings close to it but with a pet. Im positive from here on out it will be class with an FF based job, later with combo jobs wich are FF named.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
id still like to see other regions #s about this, because until someone translates, we cant do anything but speculate. We already know JP have different tastes, so there is a chance they want the opposite we do. -
11-05-2011, 09:31 PMTonkralol maybe try out the google website translation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanfire
It isnt that perfect. but can guess what its about.. it isnt that bad... and it seems there are also same topics in it "server seperation, yes or no" etc.
http://translate.google.com/translat...s%2F69&act=url -
11-05-2011, 09:39 PMTonkraWell isnt yoshida thinking of implementing a pet to drg maybe in 2.0.? therefore he could offer an other, second job for lancer (lance knight or what ever) to make all player happy about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanfire
(sorry for double post) -
11-05-2011, 10:52 PMJennestiaThis isn't FFTT or FFIV or FFIX either, yet people specifically want that style Dragoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by giottoV
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11-05-2011, 11:19 PMReliquiaWell said, and even though FFIX class was a drg in terms of abilities, it visually didn'thave the same style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
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11-05-2011, 11:50 PMgiottoVExactly so why not just have FFXIV be FFXIV. Because the true vision of dragoon was in those games. FFXI made it like a joke and thought it was cool to make dragoon a pet class. What I am saying is FFXI online had its dragoon with wyvern. So its time for THIS ffxiv Online not to have one. And the reason why I compared other games with ffxi is because FF up to FFIX was the true FInal fantasy game that was made by Square soft, till they merged and became square enix. SE ruined the visions of dragoon by making it a pet class in ffxi. The result was dragoon became a weak class. Like I said It sucked as a DD, it sucked in ballista, it sucked in every aspect of the game. The only good thing about it was it had a baby pet wyvern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
Dragoon was originally a dragon knight.
Now you dont see dark knight having a pet demon.
Oh and this isnt ffxi and yet people significantly want that style of dragoon? Why not make dragoon restore it to its original glory? by not having a pet and make it become a pure DD class not a pet class.
Before ffxi When you say dragoon its a strong DD that has a dragon-like armor. After FFXI when u say dragoon people ask "well wheres its pet wyvern?" -
11-05-2011, 11:52 PMHyristAn overwhelming minority of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
And you forgot FFII.
Point being, people want Kain's version of Dragoon. Not FFXI's version.
And the people who DO want Wyvern partners are pushing for the wrong method of doing so.
Again, I've found no valid argument why Wyvern cannot be a mount companion on the same battle-ready standards as a Chocobo is planning to be. Why you want to push for a mechanic that will be a nightmare to balance when a much better solution would be available is flabbergasting.