CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM

Since 1.18 it was easy to see this coming, but I am still a little disappointed. I feel like they are ignoring and/or mucking up the THM and CNJ lore with this. Yes, I know, the job is not the class, and neither mage really fits WHM or BLM perfectly, but I feel it would have fit so much better the other way around. Pretty much what Wynn is explaining so well.

But I don't think this will be changed, so if this is the path they are taking, I have to say: please give THM more nukes! Elemental nukes just look so much neater than Scourge/Banish/Shadowsear -- I'd prefer to kill things with fire, not blobby dark spots. ;)

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

here's my 2cent...

I couldnt care less since i have both classes maxed out, lol.
Id suggest the simple way and level both while you still can.

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Congratulation, you win the prize for most selfish comment in the Forum. Try thinking about the New Players who are the only hope of this game surviving. I'm pretty sure they want there chosen Class' back story to make sense..

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Well now we're just arguing semantics, unless you really believe some big nasty raptor is going to knock you out instead of just eat you.

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It doesnt alter the fact that the status is KO, and the message I believe says you were knocked out, also the status for dying/getting knocked out while your weakened is called Brink of Death, in other words you are about to die, not you have been killed and brought back to life 2 times.

Raise =/= necromancy and it is in the lore of the game that the thurmaturges atleast experiment with necromancy which makes them dark mages or in FF terms black mages.

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

Oh sorry, lol ... wasnt actually meant @ anyone besides the thread title i guess. :P

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Oh, I didn't think you meant directly to me, I was just thinking maybe you were right. :)

I decided to wait for the announcement though. I could be leveling a THM for nothing. :rolleyes:

I really do not understand how people can't understand that Changing who has what spells is alot easier than rewriting the entire story of these classes..

THM are Priests dedicated to balancing Life and Death.

CNJ sages dedicated to the balancing of elemental forces.

It would be far easier to swap cure and drain than it would be to rewrite these back stories.

I suppose they could be trolling us and decided to change the names of the classes in Japanese and what they called CNJ is now THM and vice versa.. lol I wish...

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Originally Posted by Delsus

It doesnt alter the fact that the status is KO, and the message I believe says you were knocked out, also the status for dying/getting knocked out while your weakened is called Brink of Death, in other words you are about to die, not you have been killed and brought back to life 2 times.

Raise =/= necromancy and it is in the lore of the game that the thurmaturges atleast experiment with necromancy which makes them dark mages or in FF terms black mages.

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You realize the only reason MMOs use the phrase Knocked Out instead of Died is so the ESRB doesn't have to Rate there game M right?

I have a hard time seeing CNJ losing their elemental spells... The lore just doesn't really allow for it. Same with THM using primarily astral and umbral.

I think they might keep those spells and Yoshi is using a different approach to make things work here.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

You realize the only reason MMOs use the phrase Knocked Out instead of Died is so the ESRB doesn't have to Rate there game M right?

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Then this game would have to be rated M now because if you get KO'd twice its basicly saying "OMFG dont fight you moron you WILL DIE!!!!"

Also there are plenty of movies that have people dying that arent rated M, the term death doesnt mean its only sutable for people over 18.

If the cencorship in US is that bad then all RPGs should be rated M because you are killing things, oh and you are using a sword to kill them thats even worse. Cencorship is not as bad as you think if it was to the extent that a fact of life (death) is as bad as watching someone get disembowled with a chainsaw, with blood splattering everywhere, then there is something wrong.

I think they use KO instead of death because then "why couldnt I revive Aeris".

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Originally Posted by Answa

Nobody really cares anymore. People are just defending their previous stances. I thought there was a strong indication that CNJ would be BLM. Others THM. THM won. The end.

Please stop this.

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Never has someone posted more, about posting less. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Then this game would have to be rated M now because if you get KO'd twice its basicly saying "OMFG dont fight you moron you WILL DIE!!!!"

Also there are plenty of movies that have people dying that arent rated M, the term death doesnt mean its only sutable for people over 18.

If the cencorship in US is that bad then all RPGs should be rated M because you are killing things, oh and you are using a sword to kill them thats even worse. Cencorship is not as bad as you think if it was to the extent that a fact of life (death) is as bad as watching someone get disembowled with a chainsaw, with blood splattering everywhere, then there is something wrong.

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lol You obviously do not know what your talking about. ESRB standards are ridiculously strict. Believe me, I work with them every day. But this is not the point of the topic.

There are implications of Grave robbing against THM I recall no situation that insinuated that they committed acts of necromancy at any point in time during the story. The concept as a whole is in direct conflict with their philosphies as described in game. Rouge members aside the organization can only lose from the practice of Necromancy because they're goal is to get all of there Customers to leave all their money to the organization when they die.

They are not "Dark Mages" they are Priest and they happen to offer retribution to those to kill there followers. It has nothing to do with Dark Magic.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I think they use KO instead of death because then "why couldnt I revive Aeris".

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Lol, oh yeah and I dont remember that game being rated M, just because somone died Kiote.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Lol, oh yeah and I dont remember that game being rated M, just because somone died Kiote.

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Is there something wrong with you? It's not about one person being killed in a story. It's about repeatedly subjecting the user to the experience of death. You really should not argue about things you know nothing about.

I'm glad I leveled both. Rage=0.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

lol You obviously do not know what your talking about. ESRB standards are ridiculously strict. Believe me, I work with them every day. But this is not the point of the topic.

There are implications of Grave robbing against THM I recall no situation that insinuated that they committed acts of necromancy at any point in time during the story. The concept as a whole is in direct conflict with their philosphies as described in game. Rouge members aside the organization can only lose from the practice of Necromancy because they're goal is to get all of there Customers to leave all their money to the organization when they die.

They are not "Dark Mages" they are Priest and they happen to offer retribution to those to kill there followers. It has nothing to do with Dark Magic.

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To mold that aether into sorcery, the thaumaturge makes use of a scepter or staff, within which is housed a medium - a natural stone imbued with magical properties. The guild is centered at the Arrzaneth Ossuary in Ul'dah, within whose hallowed walls are said to reside powers of life, death, and the beyond.

Thaumaturges are unparalleled in their powers of destruction, eclipsing even the Disciples of War.

From gamerescape, showing they are linked to life, death and the afterlife, and although I cant find it its i have seen a few quests that have linked the thaumaturges to necromancy, but they deny any connections, there in some quests in uldah from what I remember.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Lots of... heated discussion going on up in 'ere. While the black and white "this class will be this job" was stated on the recent LIVE broadcast, the more in-depth class adjustment news will be posted in the coming days, so I hope that everyone is looking forward to it!

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THM will prob get all the elemental spells and CNJ will probably get the Astral and Umbral spells. That would be my guess or simply get the spells like Banish.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

THM will prob get all the elemental spells and CNJ will probably get the Astral and Umbral spells. That would be my guess or simply get the spells like Banish.

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I really doubt that they'll be swapping the entire basis upon which the classes are built. There's way too much lore players have been invested in at this point.

More likely CNJ will get more of a healing focus and THM will get more of a nuking focus, while at the same time, CNJ keeps their elemental ties, and THM stays with their principle of life and death.

Not sure exactly how he plans to do it, but I just don't see the entire lore of the classes changing at this point.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

I really doubt that they'll be swapping the entire basis upon which the classes are built. There's way too much lore players have been invested in at this point.

More likely CNJ will get more of a healing focus and THM will get more of a nuking focus, while at the same time, CNJ keeps their elemental ties, and THM stays with their principle of life and death.

Not sure exactly how he plans to do it, but I just don't see the entire lore of the classes changing at this point.

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That and the classes still need to be able to solo to some extent. CNJ losing any kind of offense would kill that. Glad is kinda in that situation right now, but if they do end up getting dual wield and with the self-combo stuff that would probably be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Is there something wrong with you? It's not about one person being killed in a story. It's about repeatedly subjecting the user to the experience of death. You really should not argue about things you know nothing about.

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There are plenty of games where you die repeatedly, and are not rated M.
(Quick example, w/o any complexities to get in the way, WoW. You literally die, and are brought back to life. Repeatedly. But it is rated T. In other RPGs where death/life/afterlife are big themes tend to have actual death in place of KO)

I'm fairly sure later installments used the term KO for the above mentioned "Why Can't I revive "xxx" character?"
The idea in DnD (Which RPGs such as FF and DQ were inspired from.) is that you are KOed, and if no one is around to guard you, whilst you are knocked out, then either you die of your wounds, or are killed then.
What WAS censored, was the game over.
"Annihilated" was term once used for game over.

You die in Dragon Quest games and those aren't M. You're brought back to life because the goddess doesn't want you to die yet when you're wiped out.

Anyone who seriously thought CNJ was going to be BLM was delusional. I have been gone for a year, just started again on a new server with 1.19 and rolled a CNJ, it was plainly obvious that it was going to be WHM. Maybe the people that have time invested were just hoping, but all you had to do was read the spell list.

I got CNJ to 50, getting storyline quests done and then will level THM to 50. Not like it is hard, took a complete noob two weeks to get to 50.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Never has someone posted more, about posting less. :rolleyes:

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Because I conceded that it could've gone both ways since the first page, but people just went straight into "I told you so" mode. Then started fighting, when it was all meant to be lighthearted. That annoys me.

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Yes, I played it. And yes, there was a tree burning in the Gridania storyline and it was bad because it pisses off the elementals when you burn their homes. However it had nothing to do with the conjurer class and has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

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How does angry elementals not have anything to do with Conjurers, who worship elementals? I'm confused by your logic.

It could've gone both ways. CON could've been BLM easily. THM could've been WHM (not as easily, due to lack of healing spells). The lore is there. I'm not denying that. The lore allows for CON's to be WHMs just as easily as BLMs, and it allows the same for THM. There's confusion because both classes were essentially able to do the same things without much fuss. It stands to reason that SE is planning on making major adjustments to these classes to change that.

Salt up the forum all you want.

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Yes, that is true, but that doesn't make you any less wrong.

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So you're basically saying that SE is wrong for doing it this way? Good luck with that.

I wonder how much will be swapped around

I always had the impression that BLM was about nuking everything with elemental spells - every black mage so far had Fire as his/her basic spell and other ones came along later.

FFXIV made it somehow mixed since CNJ had both nukes and healing spells. It does make more sense to me to leave the elemental nukes to CNJ and move Cure to THM, less changes and more plausible when considering the lore, why would a WHM worship the elementals and a BLM life an death? Unless they want to redefine the term BLM and make it a class that wields dark magic (scourge, etc)

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Originally Posted by Denmo

How does angry elementals not have anything to do with Conjurers, who worship elementals? I'm confused by your logic.

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Really? That's the best argument you could come up with. There is an elemental so it must have to do with conjurers? Whatever, I don't even need to argue that one.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

So you're basically saying that SE is wrong for doing it this way? Good luck with that.

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No, I'm saying YOU'RE wrong about the classes, which you are.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...rysystem/magic

Thaumaturge
"Death is Only the Beginning"

"In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection."

This has been the description on the FFXIV page for THM since prerelease. It is literally the first of the classes lore. The same lore that so many here desire to swear up and down does not link THM to being BLM.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...rysystem/magic

Thaumaturge
"Death is Only the Beginning"

"In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection."

This has been the description on the FFXIV page for THM since prerelease. It is literally the first of the classes lore. The same lore that so many here desire to swear up and down does not link THM to being BLM.

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[Comment deleted by Moderator] Death does not relate to BLM lore, and in fact would relate more to the life/death aspect of WHM lore, obviously.. Terrifying destruction?... Really?... You are using an analogy that can be used to describe practically any high damage dealing class/mob/npc to prove your "point" now?.. OK.

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Originally Posted by Exni

[Deleted by Moderator] Death does not relate to BLM lore, and in fact would relate more to the life/death aspect of WHM lore, obviously.. Terrifying destruction?... Really?... You are using an analogy that can be used to describe practically any high damage dealing class/mob/npc to prove your "point" now?.. OK.

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Odd, I thought the high damage dealing mage class of terrifying destruction, out of the only two mage classes would be a no brainer for BLM.

To add though, I am curious why your so mad about this information, you have niether CON or THM past level 12, it appears you don't even have a dog in this fight.

BLM is gonna be so gimp if it's full fledged DD

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

BLM is gonna be so gimp if it's full fledged DD

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I am curious to read the logic behind your assumption ?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Odd, I thought the high damage dealing mage class of terrifying destruction, out of the only two mage classes would be a no brainer for BLM.

To add though, I am curious why your so mad about this information, you have niether CON or THM past level 12, it appears you don't even have a dog in this fight.

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I just figured he was sarcastic, since Black Mage lore in most games is it's one of the darkest and deadliest form of direct magic casting even to the point they can cast doom on their enemies and allies if they so wished.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Odd, I thought the high damage dealing mage class of terrifying destruction, out of the only two mage classes would be a no brainer for BLM.

To add though, I am curious why your so mad about this information, you have niether CON or THM past level 12, it appears you don't even have a dog in this fight.

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I already answered that question that last time you tried that.. Even gave you the name of one of my mains..
Actually reading what people post, rather than just rambling off your own opinionated nonsense, might help.. some.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I am curious to read the logic behind your assumption ?

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When has it ever not been gimp? This game plays largely like XI already.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

When has it ever not been gimp? This game plays largely like XI already.

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I don't know, BLM is pretty damn powerful with affinity staffs in XI. The only way they've been gimped is they could never attack frontlines as well as other jobs in later games.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I just figured he was sarcastic, since Black Mage lore in most games is it's one of the darkest and deadliest form of direct magic casting even to the point they can cast doom on their enemies and allies if they so wished.

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The two spells death and doom which were sometimes associated with BLM never defined the lore of the class. I'm rather surprised you of all people would come on here and try to claim that..

Btw For Coglin: (look to your left..)

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I don't know, BLM is pretty damn powerful with affinity staffs in XI. The only way they've been gimped is they could never attack frontlines as well as other jobs in later games.

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I guess they could become relevant if monsters can't be melee burned but in this game melee are effective. Also BLM even now is underused so why would it suddenly become relevant?

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Originally Posted by Exn

The two spells death and doom which were sometimes associated with BLM never defined the lore of the class. I'm rather surprised you of all people would come on here and try to claim that..

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No, but Black Magic has always been linked to death and doom type spells, which is why they're always referred to as 'Dark Arts'. It wasn't always in the player's hands, but story wise, it's always a type of sorcerer/sorceress that was modeled after the typical Black Mage, which in generalized terms, they deal in dark arts and not so much as light arts (curative magic.)

This is why in job based FFs that followed a story Dark Knights and Black Mages were always the more feared. Even though comparatively speaking Blue Mage's fell magic is even darker than black magic, it's hard to deny that Black Mage is linked to Death.

Necromancy is another art that's more heavily linked to Death than Black Magic is, if you're taking the 'Death' thing literally.

I dunno, But he may twist it all he likes. He will have difficult time convincing anyone that "death" and "terrifying destrction" are unbecomming of a black mage. I think the general population would agree that those two terms define a black mage rather accurately.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

No, but Black Magic has always been linked to death and doom type spells, which is why they're always referred to as 'Dark Arts'. It wasn't always in the player's hands, but story wise, it's always a type of sorcerer/sorceress that was modeled after the typical Black Mage, which in generalized terms, they deal in dark arts and not so much as light arts (curative magic.)

This is why in job based FFs that followed a story Dark Knights and Black Mages were always the more feared. Even though comparatively speaking Blue Mage's fell magic is even darker than black magic, it's hard to deny that Black Mage is linked to Death.

Necromancy is another art that's more heavily linked to Death than Black Magic is, if you're taking the 'Death' thing literally.

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Aye, black magic in the traditional sense is linked to death and doom, but I was only arguing that FF BLM lore in not defined by death. It is, however, inspired and defined by the elements.

THM lore, to me, has always felt like it is inspired by necromancy, which like you said relates directly to death. Necromany is about exploiting the inverse relationship of life/death by reanimation and etc. If even by a small stretch, necromancy, again... to me, seems more closely related to WHM lore, than trying to stretch it all the way into FF's elemental based BLMs.