Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Except the OP isn't asking about knowing his rotation specifically and not all performance measures are rotation based. Hes trying to improve his performance in a specific instance in regards to savage without having to rely on others to know his numbers.

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Another problem you could solve by .... playing the game. Anything you do outside of what is considered a basic rotation inside a raid is intuitive and you only get better with practice, aka, playing... the game.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Another problem you could solve by .... playing the game. Anything you do outside of what is considered a basic rotation inside a raid is intuitive and you only get better with practice, aka, playing... the game.

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you have no idea what you are talking about. You are doing nothing but providing presumptuous opposition.

In alex savage, you have to discover your classes nuances. Since I play BLM, I will use it as an example. On a4s, it's very easy to lose enochain. A parser provides real time data on your dps. As a blm on a4s I can tell when I should use the ability enochain and when I should hold it to refresh for the next leg. I can see in live time which choice is the best, even if it only netted me a 25 dps gain. A choice like that is NOT intuitive. You need to see dps in real time to discover some of those nuances, not just the average dps over a whole fight.

No amount of intuition will yield that kind of data. Now, let me check your character real fast... Yup, just as I thought, opposition crafted on the foundation of assumptions made by you despite not having experience in the current fights where parsers are needed.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

I personally don't need numbers to know if I'm playing well or not, and I don't want that stuff forced on me giving me unneeded anxiety to the point where I have to quit. I've been trying to play ff14 since 1.0, And i don't want to feel forced out over this like how i felt forced out of WoW over addons and voip.

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The thing is that parsers already do exist in the game, and they are quite widespread. However, no one really cares about them that much unless there's a DPS check involved. These DPS checks only really exist in EX Primals and Alex Savage. In EX Primals, they're such small DPS checks at this point in gear that you'd need to have exceptionally poor DPS in the party to fail it. Savage is the main one. I know you say you're trying to avoid this certain mentality where numbers are forced on you, but it already exists in the part of the game that you yourself have said you haven't done yet. Considering the game has stayed very tame despite widespread parser usage, it's pretty safe to say that adding an official one won't hurt the community

The reason people disagree with you is because parsers are not what's at fault, and fighting to keep them away is not what will help prevent the issue you wish to prevent. I know you cite DCUO, but try and remember the playerbase. DCUO is a free MMO that was available on consoles at release. This means you had a lot of people playing it who were playing it because it was a free game that looked cool. You had a large player base that didn't require any investment. I'll refer to them as "adolescent" for sake of ease (note: this is a catch all term for a lot of different things I'm not bothering to dive into :P). Because of that, you got a lot of the Call of Duty mentality. This game does require an investment. Financially, it's quite a large investment compared to DCUO. This weeds out a lot of people that would bring that mentality to the game. This is shown in many of the other cases noted that had a model more similar to this game where implementation of a parser did not damage those games. Quite honestly, very few people care about performance at the moment in this game that already has a parser. Where we care about it, and the reason that we want it, is for Alex Savage.

The arguments displayed so far show how your fears, no matter how valid it may be for you to have them, are not something you need to worry about in this game.

Do you need numbers to be a good player? No. There are plenty of good players who are on PS4, which means they don't have parsers. But having numbers does offer reassurance that you are doing the correct thing, and if you aren't doing the correct thing, that there are places you can improve. It's an extremely helpful tools that many of us would love to utilize.

I'll note, I'd be completely in favor of having DPS meters be completely personal in all content outside of EX primals and Alex Savage (it might be necessary for Alex Normal as well, I've seen some missed DPS checks there oddly :P), but in that content, showing data on all party members is beneficial to the success of the group and needed.

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Your parser TELLS you that? You couldn't have POSSIBLY, figured that out by yourself, with practice, really? Interesting argument. Lets just also point out what you probably use it for the most, TRIGGERS.

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No, but it tells him that the change he made was in fact beneficial, something he would not have been able to tell without seeing the number increase on the parser, as it was a minimal change, but still a gain. You missed his point completely. (I will say I don't like triggers though, but he also didn't mention triggers. Most people I know who parse actually don't use the triggers. I feel like thats a wholllllllle different argument :P)

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Originally Posted by zosia

you have no idea what you are talking about. You are doing nothing but providing presumptuous opposition.

In alex savage, you have to discover your classes nuances. Since I play BLM, I will use it as an example. On a4s, it's very easy to lose enochain. A parser provides real time data on your dps. As a blm on a4s I can tell when I should use the ability enochain and when I should hold it to refresh for the next leg. I can see in live time which choice is the best, even if it only netted me a 25 dps gain. A choice like that is NOT intuitive. You need to see dps in real time to discover some of those nuances, not just the average dps over a whole fight.

No amount of intuition will yield that kind of data. Now, let me check your character real fast... Yup, just as I thought, opposition crafted on the foundation of assumptions made by you despite not having experience in the current fights where parsers are needed.

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Current fights meaning the only thing i haven't cleared is Alexander Savage and Thordan Extreme? Anyways, your example in A4S how you figured out you "As a blm on a4s I can tell when I should use the ability enochain and when I should hold it to refresh for the next leg." Your parser TELLS you that? You couldn't have POSSIBLY, figured that out by yourself, with practice, really? Interesting argument. Lets just also point out what you probably use it for the most, TRIGGERS.

A lot of the opposition I see at the moment is because a handful of people fear parsers and so based on that alone everyone playing on a console should be held back regardless of wanting a simple addition to the game. I would like to add in my fears and receive the support of the community also. I have a fear of any new classes being added to the game in future as I believe that playing those classes could lead to harassment from people saying the new classes suck, which would in turn lead to me being excluded from groups.

There is evidence to support the idea that playing a new class could lead to being removed from groups and harassment, just look at Machinist during the time of Bismarck Ex where some people misjudged the class and treated those who played it unfairly. My fear should be taken seriously, and as such I ask that no new classes be added to the game ever again unless you play on PC and have access to add ons, the addition of new classes via that means will have no impact on me as they aren't "official".

The above may sound irrational to some, there may be evidence to suggest that playing new classes doesn't lead to harassment, but I know deep down that my fears are true and I will continue to ignore all evidence to the contrary. Thank you for your support.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Clearly we all have to moderate how we feel about things, and controlling fears is something that humans must do throughout life. Unfortunately, simply pointing out that fears exist in the mind as an emotional response does nothing to allay those fears. If it did, none of us would be scared of anything.

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But in a way it does. Grow a thicker skin is saying find a way to deal with it and face it. Much in line with the common psychology advice is to face them head on (just google scholarly articles for facing fears). The advice is never build a padded room to pretend they don't exist and don't address them. The only person who can address the fear is the person who has it. Not me, not you, not SE. If they can't do that on their own, they should seek professional help. Again, not me, not you, not SE. Those suggesting a padded room as the solution... They aren't helping anyone with their albeit well intentioned suggestions.

Also I appreciate the quotes but they all are about a person facing and internalizing their fears and moving past it in a productive manner, which supports my point ;-)

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

First I just wanted to say, Don't bring up fears/anxiety and phobias and mock them.

What i dislike, is this hive mind mentality that you have to know numbers to be a good player, i also dislike a majority of posts in this thread from people coming off as bullies.

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This one. This is probably the one that's been holding the implementation of in game parsers. Devs are also read forums. Until this mentality change (which is won't), I hope there will be no parsers implemented.

What I love about all of the arguments against parsers is that that the people that make the arguments will never come close to touching the content where they will be used.

No one is going to care what you're doing in expert roulette/void ark/Alex normal.

These blowhard care bears with their overly delicate egos are actively ruining things that DON'T PERTAIN TO THEM.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Look how scary they can be tho =x
Can we ban baby clowns from the game? I find them highly triggering and very problematic. This game needs more baby clown free safe spaces.

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I agree we should ban all baby clowns from the game, I need a baby clown free safe space.

Is PPA becoming a thing, I hope it becomes a thing. Can we make it a thing?

Zosia you are my new favorite person.

As there is already 3rd party parsing, official parser would just make everybody equal. We can talk about fear...

Imagine that right now there are players who do parse and they know how much dps you do, while you have absolutly no idea. They have the guns, you have nothing to protect yourself. If they mock you for your poor dps, you don't know if it is true or not. Personally I would fear this situation - Other players having (or not having and pretending) information that they can use, while I stay empty handed. The situations when somebody is telling other players to do more dps happen (nothing toxic), but it also happens that sometimes these "advisors" do even less dps and they want to shift the focus on someone else.

Somebody having parser, somebody not having parser... that's simply not fair.

Also toxic players are usually quite "competitive", so they certainly already do parse (if they play on PC).

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

This one. This is probably the one that's been holding the implementation of in game parsers. Devs are also read forums. Until this mentality change (which is won't), I hope there will be no parsers implemented.

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Don't blame the lack of official parsing only on Azazua :-O /joking

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Originally Posted by melisande

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Yes, you can't figure everything out with just practice and gut intuition, that's why parsers are a thing in the first place!!! Some changes only make small differences that you would not notice without some numerical data.

But hey! What do I know, I am just a player who has cleared everything in the game. Who are you, just another person speaking from ignorance here on the forums.

Also, Why would a blm need to use triggers? That's rich, lol. What would I use triggers for on a4s? Maybe an extra notification that I have five lines targeting me? Lol! Triggers are much more of a tank and healer thing. Jfc why would you even respond to this thread if you don't even know that much. It's painfully obvious you are talking out of your bum hole

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Originally Posted by zosia

Yes, you can't figure everything out with just practice and gut intuition, that's why parsers are a thing in the first place!!! Some changes only make small difference you would not notice without some numerical data.
But hey! What do I know, I am just a player who has cleared everything in the game. Who are you, just another person speaking from ignorance here on the forums.

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If they've never used a parser and don't actively do savage... They probably have no context to know the usefulness of the tool. It's like the guy who said pets aren't contributing that much dps to be worth considering when evaluating damage output. Lols. To really understand the full benefit a person needs to have used one tackling progressive content and sadly those who vehemently oppose one due to it not being necessary likely lack those experiences or rely on a group where another person is using it to the benefit of their raid.

Or they may rely on guides developed using a parser for example it would be hard to know the optimal MCH opener definitively without using one. The arguments for ignorance hold even less water than the harassment ones.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Current fights meaning the only thing i haven't cleared is Alexander Savage and Thordan Extreme? Anyways, your example in A4S how you figured out you "As a blm on a4s I can tell when I should use the ability enochain and when I should hold it to refresh for the next leg." Your parser TELLS you that? You couldn't have POSSIBLY, figured that out by yourself, with practice, really? Interesting argument. Lets just also point out what you probably use it for the most, TRIGGERS.

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Just imagine you're a race driver practicing on a race track. Your car doesnt have any meters. You have a race coming in 2 weeks and you want to improve your lap time. You have some ideas on what you want to do to speed up but all you have is your 'gut feeling' and you literally can't be told what your lap times are while Zosia here has his lap times timed and he is informed of what his lap times are. All you'll get is you thinking "uhh I think I went faster this time. Did I? Maybe? I think so..." while Zosia doesn't have to second guess himself about any tuning he did. He knows what the results are.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

-long post-

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The majority of what i would have said in response to your initial post has mostly been covered by Zosia's response here, but to what wasn't I'd like to elaborate a bit on myself.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.

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I think this in particular is a major point of misunderstanding when it comes to human nature, let me explain.

While I'm fully aware that what the OP initially asked for is a personal parser and i keep seeing it brought up as an alternative to public parsing that most can agree on as a halfway point I'm going to have to disagree that it will go over as everyone is expecting.

let me make this clear I have nothing against the implementation of a personal parser / opt in parser, however speaking objectively it is more likely to lead to cases of harassment than the alternative of a public parser.

Now why is this?

For one, 3rd party parsers still exist and you will not convince those on PC that use them to make the switch to an inferior product, additionally this still keeps console players at a distinct disadvantage because they are getting partial information and not the whole picture.

Secondly there is no way to add one to the game that will circumvent the issues that will arise as a result of party chat.

Take this scenario:

A party wipes to an endgame DPS check and asks the four DPS classes to post their numbers so they can compare to try and evaluate where the issue lies to work on fixing it.

Two of the DPS post their real numbers, one of them lies and posts false numbers and the last one refuses to post them at all because they fear harassment.

Exactly how do you think this will go over?

A PC player running a 3rd party tool already knows which numbers are correct, those on the consoles now need to sit there and try to math out which numbers are honest and which aren't while the party now comes full stop to start a 10 minute witch hunt to figure out who is telling the truth, and i promise you it wouldn't be the most civil of discussions.

You shouldn't have to sit there to debate for data that should be readily available as the battle log can be viewed by any memeber of the party already, however a parser converts it into a more readable format for quick understanding. Having a group of players that for lack of a better term "hide" their performance for fear of being targeted for harassment will instead make themselves more obvious targets by doing so. If 7 out of 8 players in a party have no issues showing their numbers that 1 person remaining has already made themselves the odd man out and that doesn't' bode well in situations where group cooperation and team-play are paramount.

It's likely to unintentionally antagonize members of the group who otherwise would have been very nice and helpful had they known outright, but now feel they have to pull teeth or fight a party member to speak up so they can fix simple issues.

It just wouldn't end well.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.

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If you want to cite DCUO I'm the wrong person to try and use that as a counterargument against, sorry.

I personally played DCUO from the moment it launched back when it was a subscription based MMO and I played for well over a year. So we can sit here and do the anecdotal argument thing all day where I say that my personal experiences were the complete opposite of what was posted in this thread and that seeing the performance scorecard was nothing but positive to the groups I went in.

I never once saw or heard of an issue of harassment or conflict arise for players seeing their performance on display and if anything it allowed us to quickly troubleshoot if someone needed to swap roles (since everyone had a DPS spec and could swap mid raid) because someone in another role was having an issue. it also promoted healthy and lighthearted competition when we knew full well that class balance was messed up and certain specs / weapons were innately more powerful than other combinations at the time (I'm looking at you fire tank, and archer sorcery)

But like the comments before my experiences are entirely anecdotal and I also played on PC (on PvP servers) where the majority of players were already used to parse culture, it's possible the console servers were simply going through growing pains as people who hadn't played MMOs before were adjusting to the concept.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.

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Except here and in other threads we have cases of the community clearly asking for the addition of a parse or performance feedback tool, and more often than not it's the console players who have no access to this functionality asking for it.

I find it hard to believe that the developers could mis-read and misinterpret the current thread's title of a Ps4 players saying they want to be on an even playing field, not to mention that the question has been raised (and responded to) in multiple interviews and during fan fest live letters.

Myself and others see no reason that the fear of a small subset of players should restrict access to features that a larger community of players are asking for, especially considering they are also paying customers.

The counter arguments against them however have been insulting if anything as if they were children being denied a toy

Console users: 'Hey we'd like a way to get feedback on our damage like some of the PC players are able to, is there a way an official method can be added so we can see how well we're doing?"

Counter argument: "Sorry i don't think that's a good idea yours or another player's feelings might get hurt as a result, but feel free to ask a PC user to tell you your numbers"

or even better

Counter argument: "Nah you don't really NEED one you just WANT one"

Console users: "Oh... okay.."

See the issue here?

EDIT: for another perspective that most don't consider this was posted on reddit:

If this game had a built in (personal) parser, I would enjoy gearing up even more.

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This aspect of not having a parser hadn't occurred to me, but I totally agree. As a PS4 player the only visible change from getting a new piece of gear is iLvl and, other than needing a certain level to access new content, I've lost interest in my iLvl.

I'm currently on a break from FFXIV and have been playing other random games. Until I read your post it hadn't occurred to me how much I've liked getting a new piece of gear in those games because I can either see numbers for hits on the screen, or can just see the mobs dying faster.

I have all jobs in FFXIV at 50 plus a few at 60, but I rarely play any of them other than my main because I simply can't see whether I am doing well or not on them. I really hadn't realised how much of a hindrance not being able to see my own numbers was until now.

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Just a reminder that if you're going to make a post on a forum any longer than a page (~300 words) you should include a dick joke to keep your audience engaged.

One good thing about playing MCH. While I can't get a full DPS rate from it, I can use Wildfire to judge how much damage my burst is doing, since that's where MCHs main DPS comes into play. Not exactly perfect, but it does give an idea of what exactly changes in my rotation do to affect my damage. If I'm suddenly down or up a few hundred or even a thousand points on average after a few tries when compared to my usual rotation, then I know whether my new one is an improvement or not. Still, I am looking forward to whenever they do implement the solo parser into the game, just because it will be nice to have full numbers....

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

My perceived reality can be the sun rising in the morning because I perceive the warmth of it's light. Of course the sun is in fact rising casting the warm light, so it's both reality and my perceived reality.

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Just a note, the sun rising is your perceived reality but not an actual reality. The sun is not rising, the reason it appears to be rising is the planet rotated in a way relative to the sun that it looks that way (TLDR has more to do with the planet moving than the sun moving).

As for parsing, I feel very late to this thread and there are so many arguments, but here is my 2 cents.

Personal Parsers are more likely to encourage bad behavior than public ones, this is because in addition to the concerns of "elitists" forcing their standards on others, there will also be people who attack others and lie about their own progress. You'll have people demanding others post their parse, and people talking smack about others not performing well. When they say 'well my parser actually says'... 'Yeah right lol noob, we don't believe you. stop making up sh*t" etc..

Public Parsers will have everything out in the open, so there will be no hiding, no lying etc. It will allow you from the get go to see how you compare to people around you and work towards improvement if you so desire.

Not having a parser withholds data from the user.

In all 3 situations there will be jerks, and there is already ToS in place to handle jerks.

In my opinion, the downsides of not having a parser outweigh the potential downsides of having one, and that a public parser is less likely to cause problems than a personal one. This is all speculation, as there has been no research on the subject. Ultimately, everyone gets their data from one game which went from no parsers to allowing parsers, and the data is all anecdotal and not at all scientific.

@ kezy

DCUO started @ ps3 launch as a sub based MMO, what happen was the ps3 crowd had an outcry and rioted for it to be free to play not understanding what an MMO was or why it needed a sub, the devs failed to deliver the large update a mnth and with the ingame riots blocking exits to actually play people quit and the game became f2p with in 3 mnths. I'm unsure when the Parser was added, but i personally saw no good come from it. All i experi4enced and still experience is players not working together trying to top dps, and harassing you over mic.

Just fyi I still have my dcuo disk someplace in my closet, I recall buying it from game stop that game never launched as free.

I also wouldn't take ryles word for it as i still play the game on and off and it more or less a cess pool, i play it during mant. And being a female gamer i had to put up with THAT harrassment too -_-;;'


(tbh i actually don't think he played the game just trying to discredit those who made mention of it)


thing is though and this will happen, people will start complaining about dmg in content outsude raiding, some infact do already. I personally don;t care ifd a person parses or not, i just don't think its wise to subject the whole game to it. I don't feel i'm a second class players for not having a parser. But this stuff never stays personal.

And please stop talking down tpo me about dps checks.... I never had an issue beating a dps check. Seriously its not something all that hard to do, and mmo are not the only game genre with dps check type battles/content.

I read ur post 3 times just to make sure I understood it and something I wanted to express, All i have ever said is i dislike parser. I never once stated they shouldn't be added. I do thing it would be a bad idea. The reason why parser harassment isn't as wide spread as parser are supposedly (you can't factually say that but w/e ) is its a ban-able to say you use a parser. So people keep it to themselves unless in a safe enviroment. Add a parser, there will be a big switch. More people will have access and use to either troll, harrasse, etc other players. I was already harrassed to the point of moving to a jp server over being a fresh tank. Just read these forums, read fc chat, people already complain about dps not pulling their waight in content outside of raiding.

@ kaurie

what is the downside of not having a parser, mind eleborating?

@Azazua_azura

You're throwing information to discredit someone that you could be accused of yourself. Wheres your CD "in your closet somewhere"? I don't think you've shown anymore proof than he has, in fact you've shown less reason to believe his credentials when it comes to DCUO experience. While you very likely could have, you have only attacked his point through.. saying he never actually played it? I'd say this can feel rather insulting to any visitors of this forum that you would need to use ad hominem.

When it comes to the point I actually do not fall under one that cares whether or not there is an in game parser, I dislike the culture and experience but I would rather use strong points and listen to others rather than attack and bring down others' experiences. You may very well have experienced such things yourself but if you wish others to take you seriously in a discussion, you should be subject to the same criticisms. His experience can vary, he could be wrong, but when you focus on attacking someone else you are losing sight of an argument.

On topic,

@Gamer3427

My experience as a MCH is similar. While I can measure my DPS with the highs and lows of Wildfire and understand how well I'm doing at the high points of my DPS if we look at it in graph form I actually have issues trying to watch my wildfires on the screen. With how visually stimulating this game can be, it can actually become overwhelming to try to track my numbers during an actual fight so I also would love a solo parse to help me identify my actual numbers. Likewise sometimes with small latency issues I can see reassemble and a clean shot proc get lost and Sometimes I would like to know when I encountered such an issue. Overall, I would definitely enjoy the benefits with how hard it is to identify my Lead Shot's damage as well. The visuals could be better sure, but it could be more effective to know my normal Lead Shot damage and identify how much downtime I have. While I am a PC user, PS4 using Machinists already have it rough enough, I feel like the least they could use is better feedback and a solo parse method would be lovely for them I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

what is the downside of not having a parser, mind eleborating?

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From my own personal experience in The Neverending Quest To Git Gud, it was living in the blissful ignorance of thinking I was hot stuff, when the reality was that I was a massive shitter. Up until Alex savage, the game is faceroll easy for every. Flippin. Thing.

Literally any time I struggled in MSQ, echo kicked in and I sailed through everything. The leaders of my FC are so afraid of conflict that they bottle up any and all objections and just let me be a blissful idiot. (Probably didn't help that I had a hair trigger temper back in the day) The hints were here and there, and I even got kicked from a pug group, but the healers in that were blatantly screwing up mechanics and dying, so they were easy scapegoats.

It wasn't til I started I started networking with other dragoons and found an FC member who wasn't afraid to lay it all out there that I learned I was underperforming by a decent margin. (The problem ended up being poor OGCD usage)

The point of all this jive is that I could have been spared a whole lot of headache and a day of reworking muscle memory if I could see my own data from the get go and compare it to the acceptable standards. You can say "durr aggro meter, but there are aggro reducing skills, as well ad the very real (and often) scenario that you're the best of a bad group since the REAL badasses tend to never ever use DF ever.

Now you can scream harrasment all day, but did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, if you find yourself regularly on the recieving end of such treatment, then maybe you aren't as good as you think you are, and should probably man up and get better?

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

I'm unsure when the Parser was added, but i personally saw no good come from it. All i experi4enced and still experience is players not working together trying to top dps, and harassing you over mic.

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It launched with the scorecard feature, it was there from day one.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

I also wouldn't take ryles word for it as i still play the game on and off and it more or less a cess pool, i play it during mant. And being a female gamer i had to put up with THAT harrassment too -_-;;'


(tbh i actually don't think he played the game just trying to discredit those who made mention of it)

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Funny thing about that actually...

http://puu.sh/lGlMT/658c2b057a.jpg

http://puu.sh/lGny4/5414e41303.jpg

Just because DCUO isn't my primary MMO, doesn't mean i don't play at all still, i usually log in and play for an extended period of time any time a new power set is added so that i can stay current.

I find it disappointing that you felt you needed to attack me personally as opposed to carefully reading the post where I said that my experience playing on the PC servers could very well have been different than that of the console players because parse culture is something PC MMO gamers are already used to. It's very likely that the console playerbase needed more time to adjust to the idea of openly seeing your performance evaluated, however FFXIV is fortunate enough that the console and PC players play on the same servers so it isn't likely to be an issue.

I will thank you however for further illustrating the misunderstandings that can occur around the subject and how it's more often than not those who make claims about issues of harassment that are the first to try and discredit someone else based on nothing at all. I never questioned whether or not you played the game or if your experiences were valid, i did however say that they may not have been as common as you make them out to be.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

The reason why parser harassment isn't as wide spread as parser are supposedly (you can't factually say that but w/e ) is its a ban-able to say you use a parser. So people keep it to themselves unless in a safe enviroment. Add a parser, there will be a big switch. More people will have access and use to either troll, harrasse, etc other players. I was already harrassed to the point of moving to a jp server over being a fresh tank. Just read these forums, read fc chat, people already complain about dps not pulling their waight in content outside of raiding.

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This isn't true as has been illustrated multiple times by multiple posters i implore you to take the time to read some of the arguments, watch some of the videos, and step outside of your own personal experiences, they seem to be blinding you to the larger picture.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Words

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First, you're a prime example of why the anti-parsing argument is immature and naive. If you nearly resorted to transferring servers because a few people harassed you over being a new tank, that's a serious problem. Not everyone is going to have only nice things to say. In fact, not everyone SHOULD have only nice things to say. You can't merely run away from every less-than-flowery thing someone says on the internet. The true solution, the one that would solve the whole situation, is that people need to grow up. So what if people are asshats? At the end of the day is it really going to harm you? Brush it off and move on like an adult. Everyone else has to do it. Its an unavoidable fact of life that people are horrible - each and every one of them. Just deal with it like we all have to.

Second, no one is getting banned for saying they use a parser. Not a single person. Ever. The devs all acknowledge that raiders use them and they've blatantly stated they aren't going to do anything about it as long as dps shaming doesn't get reported.

Third, the downside to not having a parser? Not everyone is like you and content to frolic through the fields of La Noscea. Some people want to be good at what they do. You know how people get better at things? Practice and quantifiable measurements. Without those measurements for comparison, no one ever knows they're truly improving. It goes for anything. Literally anything ever.

https://i.imgur.com/VjX8Z6Y.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Now you can scream harrasment all day, but did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, if you find yourself regularly on the recieving end of such treatment, then maybe you aren't as good as you think you are, and should probably man up and get better?

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This is the reality behind the problem. Most of the pro-parser crowd doesn't really encounter this "harassment" because they usually perform well. Most of the anti-parser crowd seem to encounter and experience allot of "harassment". Doesn't take a genius to figure out why that is.

I'm autistic with tons of weaknesses that make even basic things needlessly complex, yet I perform great and never get harassed. My younger sister(15), who is also autistic, recently started playing mmo's herself. She would always talk about how fun it is and how good she is at the game. So I told her that if she ever were to try doing endgame content she might realize she isn't as good as she thinks she is and that she can/will be removed from groups if that is the case. Needless to say, she experienced exactly what I told her. Instead of whining and crying about it tho, she asked me to help her figure out how she can get better. Fast forward some weeks and now she really is kicking ass.

So instead of victimizing yourself, step up and improve.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Whoever said I was speaking for you? I was speaking for people I know in-game and in-real life, who fear harassment. Is that OK with you?

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What has anything you've said got to do with the fact I asked for a PERSONAL parser? I mentioned it in the title, in my post and again in the original replies to my post. You've gone off your nut fighting everyone about harassment and other rubbish that has almost nothing to do with my original post.

The point about harassment is asinine.

If people are harassing you, report them. And, there needs to be a proper punishment.

Maybe you also look into other means of curbing toxicity like rewarding positive behavior (already kind of exists with the commendation system).

With the proper systems in place, people should naturally be protected from harassment. Targeting parsers to prevent harassment is idiotic and the collateral damage is significant. Since when did cutting off your nose to spite your face make sense?

But, this is also not all SE's responsibility, either. The community also needs to play their part because this is their community. People in positions of leadership need to be more active in rewarding positive behavior and punishing bad behavior. If I'm the leader of an FC and I get a report about a member harassing other people, I need to do something about it. If a member of my static is a douche bag, there needs to be a real discussion about them finding a new group. If you do nothing, you get what you deserve.

Combating toxicity should have nothing to do with parsers.

Why are this thread alway end up this way
Yes, it is a tool
Yes, use it correctly it help improving
Yes, ppl will always miss use it
No, it is not a norm in PC MMO, only about 40% of my PC MMO have it so commonly use in general public
So please, pro and against are both viewing this issue at their field objectively
You can argue it bring greater good than it harm
The other will argue it bring worse evil and outweighed the good
There is no way to please the other side
So if you really want it, or you really hate it
Put down you prejudge, and stop the fight
Work together to find the balance solution for each other

The middle ground for this is (for me at least) that there will be a vote system to activate parser in DF party. Or there will be an option to tick "activate party parser" before queuing in DF, then you'll be grouped with people who are also tick the box. It may need more algorithms in the DF queue system for this, but that's the best middle ground that I can think of.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

The middle ground for this is (for me at least) that there will be a vote system to activate parser in DF party. Or there will be an option to tick "activate party parser" before queuing in DF, then you'll be grouped with people who are also tick the box. It may need more algorithms in the DF queue system for this, but that's the best middle ground that I can think of.

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All that would accomplish is all the good players ticking "activate party parser" and the lazy/bad players don't. Thus causing a larger rift between the two. Meanwhile the good players can expect smooth runs while the "I play how I want" crowds get placed in FF14's equivalent of ELO hell, which in turn causes more toxic behaviour then a public parser ever would. Eventually they will give up on it and tick "activate party parser" and before long df will be the same it has always been+parser enabled.

Why do people always think that people who are not pro parsers are always bad players? What the heck is this?

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Why do people always think that people who are not pro parsers are always bad players? What the heck is this?

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Observations

To clarify: I observe and analyze information based on my own experiences and stories from both sides of a camp. Then I look at that information from multiple perspectives and conclude what is true.
* My autistic tendencies are to do that daily with political/religous/world problems and in this case people's performance.*

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

bad argument about anxiety

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I don't care if you have anxiety problems outside of your control. Your standards would erase all competitive people vs people environments. It sounds like YOU need to avoid games that give you anxiety and fear, not make all games anxiety and fear free. People have anxiety from starcrafts fog of war. Not knowing what someone is doing can give you anxiety. But the people who love fog of war shouldn't be punished for the few people who can't handle it.

Your argument is like someone crying that football requires you to run. Well I have a muscle deteriating disease where I lost my legs. So I demand that football have rules in place that make everyone crawl to the Inzone. A few people having no legs shouldn't make the whole world crawl/use a wheel chair. Just like people with fear and anxiety shouldn't make everyone else live in a free of criticism world.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Why do people always think that people who are not pro parsers are always bad players? What the heck is this?

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Majority of really good players participate in hardest content (currently Savage and Thordan), and I don't know if there are any groups doing that content where no one parses (I really would be curious to know if there are any endgame statics where no one parses). Hence most really good players are at least parsed by others in their group even if they don't personally run a parser.

Of course you can be a good player who doesn't do any endgame content, but one might argue that to be a good player you have to at least follow a good rotation, which is again based on someone's parse.

Knowledge is power, it's really hard to be good if you have no actual knowledge on how you're really doing.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

All that would accomplish is all the good players ticking "activate party parser" and the lazy/bad players don't. Thus causing a larger rift between the two. Meanwhile the good players can expect smooth runs while the "I play how I want" crowds get placed in FF14's equivalent of ELO hell, which in turn causes more toxic behaviour then a public parser ever would. Eventually they will give up on it and tick "activate party parser" and before long df will be the same it has always been+parser enabled.

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I completely agree, this is what I think would happen. and I welcome it. Clearly the subject of parsers is very divisive. So why not enable this, then those that don't want to be measured by a parse can run around doing their content with like minded people, and those of us that do want a parser can do the same. In fact this is exactly what I want.

I actually do think there is a place for the "I Play how I want" people. and that place is with like minded people, they can all stick together without fear of reprisal.

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Originally Posted by Taika

good reply

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Just want to add that people who don't use parser that can do huge DPS numbers, more than likely followed some rotational guide, which was probably founded and deemed best rotation by a person who parses.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

The majority of what i would have said in response to your initial post has mostly been covered by Zosia's response here, but to what wasn't I'd like to elaborate a bit on myself.


If this game had a built in (personal) parser, I would enjoy gearing up even more.

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The counter argument for this, in that scenario where the DPS refuse to put up their numbers, their refusal will exacerbate the situation by the fact 3rd party recording of DPS is actually inaccurate as things like DoT ticks or DoT crits are estimated. Therefore, their numbers are likely to be underestimated and thus the party leader will have to make a judgement on inaccurate data from his own program. The official parser will be expected to be both precise and accurate because it has access to various damage functions which 3rd party ones will never be able to, even with RAM scanning. For example, just recently as 10-11th of November, an error in the way a common parser records DoTs completely messed up the DRG leaderboards because the DoT ticks were overestimated, leading to highly padded and inaccurate figures.

And also in that scenario where the DPS check is failed and the DPS do nothing for fear of harassment, that is a poor excuse for owning up to your mistakes. Healers and Tanks have to deal with this constant judgement already, only because their performance is immediately obvious, DPS should not be exempt from this.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Why do people always think that people who are not pro parsers are always bad players? What the heck is this?

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Because nobody who knows for a fact that they do ridiculous DPS is against knowing that they in fact do ridiculous DPS.

I think the game needs an ingame parser and scoreboards with DPS,HPS death ect after Wipes and Duty, prefferably after every boss

The game does a poor job at teaching people how to play a job as its meant to be played, and does not give any feedback to the player at all.

At 60 jobs are kinda complex and not very intuitive to learn.
If you dont get feedback on how you perform you are at disadvantage, you cant improve and you dont get fun out of improving.

Not having an ingame parser, and scorbeards after a wiped/ duty completed has hurted the community allready and first created alot of the toxic/elitism behavior.

The argument, people would get harrased if the numbers would be shown to everyone, is a stupid one.
Because simple,an in game parser/scorecard would benefit the game, the community, casual and endgame groups and every single player ALOT more then it would hurt some in some instances.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

All that would accomplish is all the good players ticking "activate party parser" and the lazy/bad players don't. Thus causing a larger rift between the two. Meanwhile the good players can expect smooth runs while the "I play how I want" crowds get placed in FF14's equivalent of ELO hell, which in turn causes more toxic behaviour then a public parser ever would. Eventually they will give up on it and tick "activate party parser" and before long df will be the same it has always been+parser enabled.

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And? I should have no obligation to carry them, see if they like their 70 minutes dungeon or trial wipes with like minded people.
Bad players can mean a lot of things, but the bad that want to improve will turn it on.

I take it the question of why tanks and healers should be the only ones with responsibilities and dps players should get a free carry just for playing a dps job has still not been answered by the anti-parser crowd?