RIP Bard

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

So, they are bringing back the rooting from 1.23? The rooting is what caused BRD to be shunned in 1.23. Another thing, when will this be viable in ARR? I mean ARR is nothing but an AoE fest so forcing us to root ourselves is suicide. NINs assassinate and DRGs jump are in the same boat. Use them at the wrong time and you are dead.

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You're not rooted, it works exactly like a caster in the sense that if you move = your move is interrupted. The trick will be when to place yourself in the stance and when you know you'll be moving a lot.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

The trick will be when to place yourself in the stance and when you know you'll be moving a lot.

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Exactly how I feel about this new ability..it's just a trick, and not a good one.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

All these Bards trying to act like they weren't going to be Dark Knights anyway...

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you say dark knight, I say machinist! ;o

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Originally Posted by Ken_8O

Exactly how I feel about this new ability..it's just a trick, and not a good one.

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Only if you can't figure out how to use it properly. As someone who's familiar with and played ALL of the jobs in this game, in particular the DPS spellcasters since this new stance relates to them in a way, I can think of quite a few scenarios in which this new song would serve me wonders for extra DPS.

Really, this new stance the BRD is getting is no different from the DPS spellcasters (and the healers) who always basically have to act as turrets anyway and position themselves properly to avoid damage while dishing out their own.

And hell, being a stance, the BRDs can just simply turn it off when the situation calls for superior mobility again. It'll be like Cleric Stance dancing. Just replace "healer stance" VS "DPS stance" with "DPSing with mobility" VS "DPSing as a turret". :3

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Really, this new stance the BRD is getting is no different from the DPS spellcasters....

It'll be like Cleric Stance dancing. Just replace "healer stance" VS "DPS stance" with "DPSing with mobility" VS "DPSing as a turret". :3

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Two major issues with what you said here. The first being, not all of us click with every job. And myself especially am not fond of caster jobs. That's just one reason I fell in love with Bard; it was smooth, I didn't need to stop and go, and could pew-pew while dodging. It's glorious.

The second issue is the idea that this will be used for 'stance dancing'. Now maybe this is just me, but for this to be effective you need to be able to go into the stance just as seamlessly as going out. Issue with Minuet is, you have to play a song. You have a cast bar for songs. Even Swiftsong has a very short period of needing to play a proper tune. So as a 'stance dance' even in that regard it's clunky and poorly thought out.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Two major issues with what you said here. The first being, not all of us click with every job. And myself especially am not fond of caster jobs. That's just one reason I fell in love with Bard; it was smooth, I didn't need to stop and go, and could pew-pew while dodging. It's glorious.

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Guess it's time to learn how to adapt then eh? What roles click with you is up to you, but when changes are made, changes are made. You either adapt or fall out. That's life. I suppose you could go without ever using the skill, but that's up to you.

As for the second part of your statement, quite frankly, that is the only issue I have with the new skill. The fact that I wish it functioned more like Cleric Stance itself. (Insta on with a cooldown period) But hey, can't have everything. I'll adapt, like I do with everything else that's thrown at me in the game.

Sorry but we like what has been given to us already. To take it and start shoving on us something entirely different, that many of us don't like, is a very bad way of doing things. You're fine with just accepting this and that's maybe because you have no set preference like some of us. Those of who don't like it aren't just going to sit there and be a good little playerbase that has no differing opinions. They may or may not see the feedback and they may or may not make changes, but not trying to fight for what you like that's already been in the game leads nowhere. 'That's life' is a poor philosophy. You shoulder never be so jaded as to just accept everything that happens with a shrug.

Besides, if you're okay with this new style, what's really funny is Machinist is pretty much anticipated to operate the exact same way. Which further leads to question why the hell it was also just shoved onto Bard.

The thing i look at is that...the new song is optional. people complained about bard's dps output well here u have it. I'm guessing they did testing with bard freely mobile and high damage output and it was probably very op./ too easy. remember they did all these changes with lv 60 end game raids/dungeons in mind. if you were fine with lower dps and mobility u still have it. i think its a good risk/reward. I can imagine the best bards will be able to use WMs and freely mobile at optimal times during boss fights for highest dps.

All the rage over a new ability that takes nothing from the Job's existing skillset. It's like taking a car in for routine maintenance then flipping a table because they hung an air freshener from the mirror when they gave it back. Don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that. "But they will have balanced everything around using it!" No, they can't, because of it's optional nature. The only thing Heavensward's content is balanced around is you getting better gear.

"They're doing something I don't like, so I'm going to yell at the top of my lungs regardless if others happen to like the changes." That's pretty much what this just turned into. Yep. I tried to be nice, but I forget how hostile these forums are sometimes.

Life has never been fair princess. It's always looking to kick you in the crotch. There's all sorts of things I don't like either, but this isn't one of them. The sooner people accept the harsh truth of life, the better off we'll be. I believe the constructive part of this conversation has come to an end.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

The thing i look at is that...the new song is optional.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice this.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

The thing i look at is that...the new song is optional.

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Just like all the previous songs. If you want to continue to bring nothing to the party but mediocre dps, you will be able to do so in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by AzraelX

The thing i look at is that...the new song is optional. people complained about bard's dps output well here u have it. I'm guessing they did testing with bard freely mobile and high damage output and it was probably very op./ too easy. remember they did all these changes with lv 60 end game raids/dungeons in mind. if you were fine with lower dps and mobility u still have it. i think its a good risk/reward. I can imagine the best bards will be able to use WMs and freely mobile at optimal times during boss fights for highest dps.

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And possibly lead to subpar dps. That'd be the eqvuilant BLMs not using their enochain for IV spells, or the new dreadwyrm trance... or the monks managing chakra.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And possibly lead to subpar dps. That'd be the eqvuilant BLMs not using their enochain for IV spells, or the new dreadwyrm trance... or the monks managing chakra.

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It's the bad Bard that concerns themselves with just their output as a DD. When I spawn into a dungeon my first act is often Swiftsong, because who doesn't like to get going a little faster? My second is to check to see who all I'm in with. If there's a caster I set in mind that I should Foe's when I can, if the tank is a marauder I consider keeping a finger ready to sing Paeon and if the healer is a White Mage and thinks it prudent to Holy I keep ready to drop Ballad. Never do I think about going balls-to-the-wall damage output that seems to be the prevailing idea of how a Bard should Bard.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Never do I think about going balls-to-the-wall damage output that seems to be the prevailing idea of how a Bard should Bard.

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It's not that people are advocating "balls-to-the-wall damage" necessarily (though sure, some are), it's that HW encounters will be tuned assuming that the BRD is making use of WM when they can. If the BRD isn't, that means the other DPS have to make up the difference. We have no way yet of knowing how much difference that is or how difficult it'll be to compensate for. I kinda doubt it'll be trivial, but that's an assumption. And the thing is, they're actually going to be balanced around a BRD doing everything you just mentioned on top of playing WM when they can. . .

From what I understand about the changes i'm already looking forward to 3.0 BRD. If something like this wasn't implemented I would have ultimately switched classes for raiding content in heavensward. Playing it as a main since the release of 2.0. I love the class, but Bard play in my opinion at the moment is lacking something. Not the "Bards parse lower than other DD" but it's the choices, I wanted more choices and variety in what I was able to do and implementing a quasi-stance dancing mechanism is exactly what I wanted. Some flavor. So no complaints here. If the job wasn't changed to the extent that was showcased I would have switched jobs for 3.x progression. 100%

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Just like all the previous songs. If you want to continue to bring nothing to the party but mediocre dps, you will be able to do so in the expansion.

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^Exactly this.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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Last I saw, bards queue as a damage dealer. You even mention this. If a bard can't do reasonable numbers, they're essentially throwing their party into a scenario where the songs are absolutely mandatory to make up for it. You don't seem to think it's a major point of a bard, but it still remains one of their aspects.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

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This will be my last response to you because this is getting off topic, but things obviously need to be cleared up. None of us are being 'hostile'. The extent of which I've said has been 'the direction the devs have taken is bad' and 'your philosophy is not something people should follow'. I've never said anything terrible to you other than giving a differing opinion. Yes I'm being assertive, possibly aggressive, but that's just me being a bit passionate. I love this game, and I love how Bard is now. I want it to grow, but not like this.

People always have and always will fight for what they have and what they want, there needs to be a push and a pull. Some things are out of your power or reach, but you never actually know unless you try. This is just one of those situations. They may look at this and scoff, but they may also look at this and work towards a compromise. That's how the world works.

ok no range dps can move and do amazing dps. To all the people saying forget bard lets go to MCH. umm MCH has to reload to even attack! And to increase dps you need to put attachments that have you not mobile/charging to unleash greater dps. So MCH will give you everything you think u won't want with BRD 3.0. As far as Hw expecting you to use Hw..that could be true with certain dps checks on bosses.. but thats the entire scope of the game. A few phases that u have to stay still to pull out max dps to keel your party alive is not going to kill you.

Well, if they move EU servers to europe and lessen the lag impairment then maybe thos whole cast time buisness wont affect BRD playstyles. I forsee japanese players in japan with their ideal ping will look at us gaijins with strange look when we cry ping issues for how many of our abilties doesnt go off because of the lag (ninjas allready are picketing for those mudra lags for they dont go off) instead of 2.5 seconds it can take up to 5 secons for it to be cast for sever needs to confirm that we stand in place before it actualy starts the ability cast time. This WM in essense is not so bad. If ping is good we can have a lot of mobility its just we need to stop for a moment to skill be cast and then we can sprint whereva we want to, but because of lag impairment for those casts to to very efficien we will need to plant ourselfs all so just server doesnt need to confirm our still standing after every move we make.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It's not that people are advocating "balls-to-the-wall damage" necessarily (though sure, some are), it's that HW encounters will be tuned assuming that the BRD is making use of WM when they can. If the BRD isn't, that means the other DPS have to make up the difference. We have no way yet of knowing how much difference that is or how difficult it'll be to compensate for. I kinda doubt it'll be trivial, but that's an assumption. And the thing is, they're actually going to be balanced around a BRD doing everything you just mentioned on top of playing WM when they can. . .

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Something as gameplay-altering as Wanderer's Minuet is very unlikely to be minor. It'd be a wasted ability if that were the case.

Chances are you'd need to be in WM for most encounters unless the fight is extremely movement-dependent in order to maintain optimal DPS. Depending on how Skill Speed affects melee casting, BRD may find value in stacking skill speed (though from what I remember, BRD is currently dependent on crit for procs, so that may cause issues in itemization).

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

This WM in essence is not so bad. If ping is good we can have a lot of mobility its just we need to stop for a moment to skill be cast and then we can sprint wherever we want to, but because of lag impairment for those casts to to very efficient we will need to plant ourselves all so just server doesn't need to confirm our still standing after every move we make.

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I'm guessing even the game's built-in ability queues isn't doing much to help those with longer ping times, then.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Something as gameplay-altering as Wanderer's Minuet is very unlikely to be minor. It'd be a wasted ability if that were the case.

Chances are you'd need to be in WM for most encounters unless the fight is extremely movement-dependent in order to maintain optimal DPS. Depending on how Skill Speed affects melee casting, BRD may find value in stacking skill speed (though from what I remember, BRD is currently dependent on crit for procs, so that may cause issues in itemization).

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Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing SS become useful for BRD, as long as it doesn't cause undue TP drain. But, yeah, I also expect WM to be a pretty sizable increase. The only thing BRD has that I think would cause you to willingly turn it off (aside from movement, obviously) is Barrage, because nearly 800 potency is too much to pass up, but for all we know they've accounted for that and have WM modify Barrage.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing SS become useful for BRD, as long as it doesn't cause undue TP drain. But, yeah, I also expect WM to be a pretty sizable increase. The only thing BRD has that I think would cause you to willingly turn it off (aside from movement, obviously) is Barrage, because nearly 800 potency is too much to pass up, but for all we know they've accounted for that and have WM modify Barrage.

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It's already been said the speed stats will be adjusted in the expansion to make the stat more worth having rather than something lots of people actively avoid.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

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"We" "us" Please don't type like everyone feels the same way. This thread is filled with mixed reactions by all those who main or alt bard. A few posts you put has been with the starting words I wrote and I for one personally do like the sound of the change. I want to believe SE will tweak it over time to adjust to the needs bards have but it needs to be used first to see what players feel after they actually tried using the skills and new play styles.

I personally feel like the skill may be great, it's optional and the most I'd like to happen? a skill animation time reduction. That's the ONLY problem I see, I know you have your preferences. That's fine and all but you're fighting against a skill you haven't even seen, they didn't show the damage rates of the shots or anything and I do prefer not falling too far behind in DPS that I'm just going to be standing around doing for maybe 2 mins in a fight before having to move around again afterwards.

Machinist is almost the same yes, but if they offer similar support or just as beneficial support merits then who do you think is going to get into those raid slots? Preferably not a bard over a machinist if their DPS is a significant amount lower, I can promise you this for a fact. Quite a bit of Raid Turns require a certain amount of DPS to be put into them most the time. If the DPS required is more needy because of the increased cap and harder monsters in HW's new raid then guess what, all jobs will need to pull a certain amount of DPS and this includes Bard.

Like I said there will be changes if there's problems with the skill but it won't be the ability to moving and shooting with auto attacks with the increased damage buff/stance because that's too overpowered to have at once for a single class/job. Also I hate to say it but bard is there for a certain amount of DPS and a certain amount of support, we aren't just one nor the other so we need to be able to do both roles as efficiently as the other and sometimes that comes with sacrifices.

Lastly, just try to remember that the base of our job isn't changing... I know right now with the changes it feels like it is but think of it as additions that depending on how they perform may not even be used all that often if at all. These are as I just wrote; Additions and nothing more, unless we see something crazy like current skills nerfed theres not much of a change so far.

Oh and I do have worries, I'm not trying to type this all down like I don't have some or I haven't considered any problems with the skill but the beautiful thing about MMOs is that it can be changed and so far stuff has been changed quite a few times to fix jobs and imbalances so don't worry too much.


Edit: I also want to note why I like bard seeing as if these changes do take place, they will be the "blm phys turret class(?)" I like bard not just for the movement, I like it for the ability to be able to be useful in multiple situations. Bard is the only class where I feel like I can actually be useful in ways that no other class can really be. It's unique because while ninja may be able to fill TP and healers can recover MP, they can't do it as often as a bard. No other class right now can do the supportive abilities that a bard can provide while doing that small amount of DPS that also fills in enough to get the group by as they allow other DPS, tanks or healers extend their abilities with TP or MP recoveries.

At first, I wasn't appealed by this class until I noticed how much value it has as a team player when I gave it a try for my first static in XIV and that made me love and appreciate the class for what it is. I know it's not the generic bard but it's something I really like to play and as long as I can support others the way I always do.... well... I'm just happy with that, mostly anyways. :D

Only a 25% potency increase lol. This song seems entirely useless because auto attacks generally do 20-25% of a BRD's dps.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'm guessing even the game's built-in ability queues isn't doing much to help those with longer ping times, then.

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That queue system is actually what makes the lag so bad. You see an animation go off, so you queue the next skill - suddenly, the animation that went off aborts midway, and turns out the skill was never executed. So the skill you wanted to queue is executed instead.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Only a 25% potency increase lol. This song seems entirely useless because auto attacks generally do 20-25% of a BRD's dps.

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Where are you getting these figures?

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

Where are you getting these figures?

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...eview?sle=true,
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...cument/crlph7t,
guy discussing it on twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pcgamesn/v/5481429,
and my own personal numbers to arrive at 20-25%.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Only a 25% potency increase lol. This song seems entirely useless because auto attacks generally do 20-25% of a BRD's dps.

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This is why i have a theory that it's meant to be Stance Danced to set DoTs, not the end-all-be-all.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

This is why i have a theory that it's meant to be Stance Danced to set DoTs, not the end-all-be-all.

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With a 3 second cast time, I don't think that's feasible. Unless Sidewinder also extends dots, but then we're moving straight into guessing.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

This is why i have a theory that it's meant to be Stance Danced to set DoTs, not the end-all-be-all.

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That'd be just fine... if it weren't that abysmal 3 second cast time. Stance dancing requires quick, seamless drops both in and out of the stance to take advantage of any given moment. The fact you have to burn 3 of those seconds just to turn the stupid thing on means wasted opportunity. This is definitely designed to be activated at very specific times/phases in fights. Trying to constantly jump in and out is going to screw rotations badly.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

With a 3 second cast time, I don't think that's feasible. Unless Sidewinder also extends dots, but then we're moving straight into guessing.

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Seems we'll get a weaponskill to refresh the dots while under minuet.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...eview?sle=true,
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...cument/crlph7t,
guy discussing it on twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pcgamesn/v/5481429,
and my own personal numbers to arrive at 20-25%.

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Thanks for that.

Still gonna reserve judgement until BRD 60 and i can see how the WSs under WM perform. Not forgetting to mention i will also need to see what the other new song is all about.

Yup, a lot of waiting on my part before i write anything off. Still optimistic and can't wait to try this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

You cannot move, you stay still and charge.

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Good, sick of seeing them run around like headless chickens.

..And back to disappointment. A 25% increase is very weak considering we're taking longer to fire and losing auto attacks. Overall DPS would be cut by more than that on the 'cast' times alone. I don't think I'll be using Wanderer's Minuet if that's all it provides.

I said before I'd wait until the numbers before I passed judgment, and here it is. Thanks SE, but I'd rather keep my mobility and auto-attacks. I'll do more damage overall.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I said before I'd wait until the numbers before I passed judgment, and here it is.

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No, here it isn't. You still don't know what the other abilities only available under WM provide, nor how current oGCD abilities will interact with it.

isnt skill speed supposed to boost DOTs dmg now? , it will be our main stat in 3.0 faster casting , less CD and more dot dmg

we are getting a skill to refresh dots (probably instant skill , to being able to refresh on the move) and sidewinder that does more dmg based around having dots.

we dont know whats going to happen to bloodletter , and barrage , maybe barrage boost the next sidewinder dmg , kinda like triple attack for nin ?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

No, here it isn't. You still don't know what the other abilities only available under WM provide, nor how current oGCD abilities will interact with it.

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Sorry, but unless those new skills are godly powerful, it's not going to make up for the cast times and loss of auto-attacks. A 25% damage boost just doesn't cover the difference in speed.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Sorry, but unless those new skills are godly powerful, it's not going to make up for the cast times and loss of auto-attacks. A 25% damage boost just doesn't cover the difference in speed.

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Yeah unfortunately 25% is low i remember someone saying (not on the forums) that it would need to be 50% for a real difference in dps but does not mean WM is useless just... Better then what i thought it would be (10%)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Sorry, but unless those new skills are godly powerful, it's not going to make up for the cast times and loss of auto-attacks. A 25% damage boost just doesn't cover the difference in speed.

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Cast times won't slow down our weapon skill usage, unless for some reason its longer than our GCD.

On the areas though, the DoT refreshing would need to have a good amount of potency because we're going to be missing out on the intial potency hits from both bites, and bloodletter oGCD.

I really hope there is something we are missing because being able to use WM with another song for a 5% total buff seems dissapointing. I still hope there is some small group bonus for singing 2 songs at once. Maybe increased pt evasion or slightly speed up health regen tic, hell I'd be ok if it made Swiftsong not disengage . I feel if it's going to be called a song then it should have some group bonus added, if not, then make it stance. I just hope brd is competitive in terms of support with the new jobs and we remain a viable option rather than end up on the sideline.