o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

it made sense that making a sword blade is harder than gluing it to its handle. And am i the only one that thought sub class requirements for synths werent high enough, i dunno, maybe i just wanna feel i earned summin by putting the time in to get my crafts up. =(

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Originally Posted by Cursive

while this is true, if the finished product synths are quicker to complete, i would guess prices would go down because there is less time involved in the process allowing for more pieces to be made in the same time frame. this is probably an assumption. most people, myself included, still wouldn't bother trying to craft lower ranked gear for profit.

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Why? Why won't you try to craft lwr R gear? And it's not the speed for which I determine the worth of my crafted items it's the difficulty of creating it and mats needed. I crafted 8 bone rings the other day, 6 regular 2 +1. I gave the +1s to myself and sold the other 6. In the wards people are selling them for 2k+. WHY?! WTF was SOOOO hard and time consuming to get the mats or create those items? Nothing. That's just people being a$$hats! The attitude you have about it leans more to the problem of inflated prices at lower levels because you don't give a crap about the lower ranked or new players. THAT is why the community sucks and THAT is why people don't communicate. Cursive, I have seen you in game and from watching you play and watching you speak to people...I never thought you would have said what you did up there. Guess I was wrong. You seem to be an elitist... /smh

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Originally Posted by Cursive

while this is true, if the finished product synths are quicker to complete, i would guess prices would go down because there is less time involved in the process allowing for more pieces to be made in the same time frame. this is probably an assumption. most people, myself included, still wouldn't bother trying to craft lower ranked gear for profit.

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Crafters are constantly making 1000's of items every day that don't get sold in the ward. Simply because it's not possible to guess what it is that people will be wanting to buy. 98% of the time your items sits the unsold for a week. If there were buy orders ("seek item" workin), I could toss some of the finished synths to the buy orders. Otherwise it's just too much trouble to list something up to sell.

I ranked from rank 32 CRP to rank 37 CRP, nearly all of which was making yew half masks. In the course of a few days I had made over 400 masks. None of them were going to sell, so I just simplified my inventory by selling them to my good friend Pimelle (the NPC near the wards in Ul'dah).

Having more low-rank items being made won't change the supply/demand curve, nor the inability of the current market to efficiently match buyers and seller.

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Originally Posted by Okiura

in a way i think it does... you don't want to gather the bolls to make the colth to make the sleves, but atm you have too! fix the mat lvl and lower lvl ppl can make them to skill up you buy them cheep and don't have to spend 30 gathering to make 1 item.

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yea, i see what you are saying. but no one sells parts and no one ever will...there are too many specific parts recipes needed because of varying colors.

i'd have to get the boll, make, yarn, make sleeves, then repeat for 4 other parts that are more complicated.

its not even that the system is complicated...there are just too many mats and too many types of mats.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Crafters are constantly making 1000's of items every day that don't get sold in the ward. Simply because it's not possible to guess what it is that people will be wanting to buy. 98% of the time your items sits the unsold for a week. If there were buy orders ("seek item" workin), I could toss some of the finished synths to the buy orders. Otherwise it's just too much trouble to list something up to sell.

I ranked from rank 32 CRP to rank 37 CRP, nearly all of which was making yew half masks. In the course of a few days I had made over 400 masks. None of them were going to sell, so I just simplified my inventory by selling them to my good friend Pimelle (the NPC near the wards in Ul'dah).

Having more low-rank items being made won't change the supply/demand curve, nor the inability of the current market to efficiently match buyers and seller.

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there is a difference between grinding items and sellable items...of course you aren't going to be able to sell those masks...every other person ranking carp around that rank is doing the same exact thing.

i've never been speechless after a set of revisions were put in place before, but i am now. these are beyond ignorant and yoshi himself should be completely ashamed with this list. we are being taken to hello kitty levels on the changes with crafting.

YAY DEVS!!!<3<3<3<3 \(^ w^)/<3<3<3<3
Now i can actually make gear for my friends and to put up for sale!<3!<3!
Just need to allow us to sign gear now =^-^=

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
THANK YOU DEV TEAM~\(^w ^)/

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Originally Posted by Alcide

If you don't like crafting just don't do it.
IMHO the crasting system was just PERFECT the way it was before:
getting gils with DoW/DoM was easy as hell, tho the pricies for materials was quite high, so an only combat player would end up with lots of money, while a crafter at his first r50 DoH would be... quite poor >.>
So the average situation was that those who enjoy only fighting had all the money they wanted to buy anything they wanted, those enjoying crafting would have a complex and engaging system and a way to earn money AFTER they invested them skilling up. (and I really don't get all the hate against crafter's prices, we invested MILLIONS to skill up while the fighters were saving them, i remember when i was carpenter 35ish all of my LS mates had about 20 millions while I had barely 1, i guess at one point we deserve an income too...)

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What about those llike myself that like to do ALL of it? That want to try and find many of the things offered in the game fun? So I'm sort of broke so I can't afford a majority of the items due to the retarded prices but yet can't craft everything.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Why? Why won't you try to craft lwr R gear? And it's not the speed for which I determine the worth of my crafted items it's the difficulty of creating it and mats needed. I crafted 8 bone rings the other day, 6 regular 2 +1. I gave the +1s to myself and sold the other 6. In the wards people are selling them for 2k+. WHY?! WTF was SOOOO hard and time consuming to get the mats or create those items? Nothing. That's just people being a$$hats! The attitude you have about it leans more to the problem of inflated prices at lower levels because you don't give a crap about the lower ranked or new players. THAT is why the community sucks and THAT is why people don't communicate. Cursive, I have seen you in game and from watching you play and watching you speak to people...I never thought you would have said what you did up there. Guess I was wrong. You seem to be an elitist... /smh

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lol! 2k+ for a bone ring sounds like a wasted inventory space to me

The parts system was a fantastic idea, and I'm saddened that it's getting abolished. The whole point of the parts system was to make crafting social. Some finished products required BSM, TAN, WVR, and CRP. Take up one and make friends who have the others. Start a shared crafting business. Make deals on parts. OR you could take up all of them and become a self-sufficient entrepreneur.

I get the point that it makes crafting finished products easier, but now it's just going to be regular old crafting. TBH I think they should have just reduced the amount of shards for parts (total shards for a lot of finished products exceeds 60). I thought the parts system was brilliantly intricate.

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Originally Posted by Enthy

YAY DEVS!!!<3<3<3<3 \(^ w^)/<3<3<3<3
Now i can actually make gear for my friends and to put up for sale!<3!<3!
Just need to allow us to sign gear now =^-^=

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
THANK YOU DEV TEAM~\(^w ^)/

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LOL.. put up for sale? and who will buy it, if everyone can make them now?

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Originally Posted by Cursive

yea, i see what you are saying. but no one sells parts and no one ever will...there are too many specific parts recipes need because of varying colors.

i'd have to get the boll, make, yarn, make sleeves, then repeat for 4 other parts that are more complicated.

its not even that the system is complicated...there is just too many mats and too many types of mats.

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aggreed red cotten, blue cotton, green cotton and all the others is too much change color while making the finial product like in XI, i sell parts all the time cos atm i can't make gear out of them cos of the 1 stupid high lvl mat thats needed.

as a side note you can't blame the crafting system for somting thats the selling system fault.

I'm not a crafter, I just level up my DoH classes up to where I'm able to repair the items needed by my DoM classes. I usually just level with leves, and I think that's wrong. But the other alternative (grind) is too overwhelming considering all of the parts and items needed to do some simple recipes to get SP. The only class I can "understand" is Weaver, the others make no sens to me.

The recipes, while realistic were kind of crazy. As someone pointed out, why would I need a r35 (recipe) item to make another r5 item? That said, I feel they took the easy way out. The removal of parts is kind of overkill, but the other alternative would have been to check each recipe on a per case basis and see what adjustments were needed. Obviously they didn't do that.

And I'm also not happy about the changes regarding the facilities. Good or not, they are a part of our crafting system and just getting rid of them seems silly.

But, not all is lost. Seems that the dev team learned a bit with 1.18 and I feel we are getting more information pre-patch day. And let's not forget:

* The following revisions are planned for patch 1.19. All changes listed are still in development, and therefore subject to change.

So if we make enough noise someone will hear us.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

What about those llike myself that like to do ALL of it? That want to try and find many of the things offered in the game fun? So I'm sort of broke so I can't afford a majority of the items due to the retarded prices but yet can't craft everything.

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you need to plan what your doing to make gil better, else be poor, your choice

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Why? Why won't you try to craft lwr R gear? And it's not the speed for which I determine the worth of my crafted items it's the difficulty of creating it and mats needed. I crafted 8 bone rings the other day, 6 regular 2 +1. I gave the +1s to myself and sold the other 6. In the wards people are selling them for 2k+. WHY?! WTF was SOOOO hard and time consuming to get the mats or create those items? Nothing. That's just people being a$$hats! The attitude you have about it leans more to the problem of inflated prices at lower levels because you don't give a crap about the lower ranked or new players. THAT is why the community sucks and THAT is why people don't communicate. Cursive, I have seen you in game and from watching you play and watching you speak to people...I never thought you would have said what you did up there. Guess I was wrong. You seem to be an elitist... /smh

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my problem with the system is the time investment...if i am spending 30min making one piece of armor (i am slightly exaggerating, there is plenty of gear that doesn't take that long...mainly only finished body pieces), i need to determine what that time is worth and compare to the market value of the item. if i deem it not worth the time investment, why would i make it? i rarely make gear for myself and instead choose to buy it for the above reason.

sort of off topic, but i hate crafting. i only did it because there was nothing else to do in between leves. if my linkshell asks me to make something i'll do it, however grudgingly, but i still hate it. maybe that gives you a better perspective on my opinion?

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Why? Why won't you try to craft lwr R gear? And it's not the speed for which I determine the worth of my crafted items it's the difficulty of creating it and mats needed. I crafted 8 bone rings the other day, 6 regular 2 +1. I gave the +1s to myself and sold the other 6. In the wards people are selling them for 2k+. WHY?! WTF was SOOOO hard and time consuming to get the mats or create those items? Nothing. That's just people being a$$hats! The attitude you have about it leans more to the problem of inflated prices at lower levels because you don't give a crap about the lower ranked or new players. THAT is why the community sucks and THAT is why people don't communicate. Cursive, I have seen you in game and from watching you play and watching you speak to people...I never thought you would have said what you did up there. Guess I was wrong. You seem to be an elitist... /smh

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He's not being elitist. Granted, a bone chip is low cost (assume 50 gil). Now add the three wind shards for the synth, which adds around 400 to the cost. Now cost of materials is up to 450 gil.

Next comes the tricky part. You have a very limited retail space. You can sell only 20 items at a time. This creates on opportunity cost, since selling a bone ring means you are NOT selling something else.

Further, how often would people actually _purchase_ a bone ring that was priced for 700 gil. How many people actually NEED a bone ring. And of those, how long do they need it for? Once a bone ring is sold, it can stat in the market indefinitely, sold from one person to the next. The person that bought it will likely use it for a week or two before upgrading. The market becomes saturated.

There is no way for me to find the people that have a need for an item, craft the item, and get it delivered to them. Trying to guess as to which items sell leads to a few strong markets that sell consistently (high rank gear, and some consumables).

I'd much rather have a new system that let people looking for gear get matched up with people that actually like to make it. I much prefer interactions in person, anyhow.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

my problem with the system is the time investment...if i am spending 30min making one piece of armor (i am slightly exaggerating, there is plenty of gear that doesn't take that long...mainly only finished body pieces), i need to determine what that time is worth and compare to the market value of the item. if i deem it not worth the time investment, why would i make it? i rarely make gear for myself and instead choose to buy it for the above reason.

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Which is cool. So Crafter have an actual reason to craft. If people dont have a reason to buy stuff, since they can make everythig easy on their own, whats the point of the wards or AH? Whats the point of Economy? Whats the point of ranking up a Subclass? Whats the point of Gatheringclasses.. etc etc etc? With this Step SE will force a lot of problems, without even seeing it.

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Originally Posted by derenkirby

you need to plan what your doing to make gil better, else be poor, your choice

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Well you could respond like that or come up with something a little more thought out lol. I know how to make gil in the game. I had just over a mil before I took a needed break...that wasn't the point. And I did it by doing both crafting and battling. ;)

Honestly I'm all for these changes. Even abolishment of parts from synthesis is a good thing IMO. Some of those parts were never created aside from being used in one or two items, they were essentially already pretty useless. This just makes the game a little more accessible to newer players and more convenient for current players, there's nothing wrong with that IMO. I don't feel it was overkill either, it's not like things are crafted from a single item or anything. You end up needing one or two fewer items and even to that end items that are more commonplace. This will drive up the demand for those items you actually need for crafting.

Honestly if the system was like this from the beginning no one would be complaining about it being "too easy" or "too dumbed down".

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Originally Posted by Nero

Which is cool. So Crafter have an actual reason to craft. If people dont have a reason to buy stuff, since they can make everythig easy on their own, whats the point of the wards or AH? Whats the point of Economy? Whats the point of ranking up a Subclass? Whats the point of Gatheringclasses.. etc etc etc? With this Step SE will force a lot of problems, without even seeing it.

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In other games crafting is even easier than it is here and yet you still see people buying things from other players. Some people simply don't want to invest the time or money to raise a craft to make their own stuff.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly I'm all for these changes. Even abolishment of parts from synthesis is a good thing IMO. Some of those parts were never created aside from being used in one or two items, they were essentially already pretty useless. This just makes the game a little more accessible to newer players and more convenient for current players, there's nothing wrong with that IMO. I don't feel it was overkill either, it's not like things are crafted from a single item or anything. You end up needing one or two fewer items and even to that end items that are more commonplace. This will drive up the demand for those items you actually need for crafting.

Honestly if the system was like this from the beginning no one would be complaining about it being "too easy" or "too dumbed down".

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So you don't think Crafters should have Guilds?

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Originally Posted by Cursive

my problem with the system is the time investment...if i am spending 30min making one piece of armor (i am slightly exaggerating, there is plenty of gear that doesn't take that long...mainly only finished body pieces), i need to determine what that time is worth and compare to the market value of the item. if i deem it not worth the time investment, why would i make it? i rarely make gear for myself and instead choose to buy it for the above reason.

sort of off topic, but i hate crafting. i only did it because there was nothing else to do in between leves. if my linkshell asks me to make something i'll do it, however grudgingly, but i still hate it. maybe that gives you a better perspective on my opinion?

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Ahhh...well it makes for an interesting POV figuring you are standing toe to toe with the crafters yet hate crafting. I would think you would actually be for this change then based upon what you said.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

So you don't think Crafters should have Guilds?

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Where did I even say that? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

I wish SE would just put out a real survey specific to each Game Play type that asks realistic questions..

Do you like the Craftng System?
Should there be subclass requirements?
Should there be Guild based rewards?
Would you prefer facilities to be recipe requirements or quality bonuses?

They really need to stop blindly tearing things apart. And I swear to god if someone references that stupid January survey again I am trolling them til they quit. That survey was so vague it was irrelevant.

I've seen no real arguemnt on how this will in ay way make crafting more enjoyable to do for anyone?
Easire in some respects and cleaning out our retainers yes.

All that i can see happening is a huge chuck on items being removed from the game so people grind on a different item and they are ones that still get vender'd as everyone and their mom makes them now.

With the potential addition and expansion of the low level components into (much wanted) new hi end gear being wasted.

But more then anything no real work being done on a recipe book and better crafting/production interface when selecting what you are crafting to make Crafting items more fun and less boring.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Where did I even say that? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

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The part where they are removing the use of Facilities and removing Guild mark rewards. Is there something else that happens at guild I dont know about?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly I'm all for these changes. Even abolishment of parts from synthesis is a good thing IMO. Some of those parts were never created aside from being used in one or two items, they were essentially already pretty useless. This just makes the game a little more accessible to newer players and more convenient for current players, there's nothing wrong with that IMO. I don't feel it was overkill either, it's not like things are crafted from a single item or anything. You end up needing one or two fewer items and even to that end items that are more commonplace. This will drive up the demand for those items you actually need for crafting.

Honestly if the system was like this from the beginning no one would be complaining about it being "too easy" or "too dumbed down".




In other games crafting is even easier than it is here and yet you still see people buying things from other players. Some people simply don't want to invest the time or money to raise a craft to make their own stuff.

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if it was like this at the beginning of the game crafters would have not been classified as full classes and any ignorant child could have crafted the gear. the people that dedicated to crafting in this game when we refused to do it in other games was because we liked the complexity of it. this is a massive dumbing down of a system that quite a few people enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

What about those llike myself that like to do ALL of it? That want to try and find many of the things offered in the game fun? So I'm sort of broke so I can't afford a majority of the items due to the retarded prices but yet can't craft everything.

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If you want to do everything you're definitely hardcore and I bet you're spending enough time online to do everything, it's not impossible, I've got a lot of friends with all the classes (DoW/M/H/L) 30+ and multiple 50s, it's not something impossible to achieve.
If you don't have all that time you just have to make choices, while other people are grinding 3 combat classes you grind 1 combat, 1 DoH, 1 DoL (as I'm doing and you can tell it from my sig).
But you just can't pretend to do EVERYTHING in an easy way.

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Originally Posted by Esk

I've seen no real arguemnt on how this will in ay way make crafting more enjoyable to do for anyone?
Easire in some respects and cleaning out our retainers yes.

All that i can see happening is a huge chuck on items being removed from the game so people grind on a different item and they are ones that still get vender'd as everyone and their mom makes them now.

With the potential addition and expansion of the low level components into (much wanted) new hi end gear being wasted.

But more then anything no real work being done on a recipe book and better crafting/production interface when selecting what you are crafting to make Crafting items more fun and less boring.

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That is exactly what I have tried to point out repeatedly. They aren't trying to fix crafting or make it fun. They are just trying to make it so easy no one has to try.

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Originally Posted by Nero

LOL.. put up for sale? and who will buy it, if everyone can make them now?

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everyone could have made them before...

also this is the stupidest reason i have ever heard.
You actually think everyone playing ff14 is gonna level all 6-8 crafts to rank 50? really???? name one game that 50-70% of the fanbase ranking every single class to capp and i will give you 3 million gill!!!!

With this bing said everyone will be buying things always cause people are not gonna spend millions of gill and 4-5 months leveling each craft i no im not lol.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Ahhh...well it makes for an interesting POV figuring you are standing toe to toe with the crafters yet hate crafting. I would think you would actually be for this change then based upon what you said.

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when i say the system, i mean the current one...the one we have right now. maybe i wasn't very clear or you misread my posts?

im 100% for these changes.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

The part where they are removing the use of Facilities and removing Guild mark rewards. Is there something else that happens at guild I dont know about?

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Where did they say they were removing guild mark rewards? They said they are making new recipes not require facility and treatise bonuses but are considering alternate ways to make them more useful in the future.

Not required =/= removed.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Well you could respond like that or come up with something a little more thought out lol. I know how to make gil in the game. I had just over a mil before I took a needed break...that wasn't the point. And I did it by doing both crafting and battling. ;)

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1 mil seems a lil low, n I'm not saying it to just be an arse, i got like 10 mil or so n have never relli sold anything in the wards, im just saying that perhaps a lil better planning would help, but yes your right, i should have put a little more thought into that

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Originally Posted by Xenor

The whole game is a timesink. Take away the timesinks you take away the game. That applies to every game. Just because you spend time playing a game doesn't mean it's bad. Improving your character should always require time, otherwise what's the point of adding new content? Too many kids gotten used to opening their new game, inputting the god mode cheat and playing through it over the years.

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You're the one who was trying to imply that this change is bad because it's turning it into a timesink. Go ahead, read what you wrote. Here it is again, for your convenience:

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It seems the difference between a good crafter and a bad crafter will soon be who has the most time

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For the rest of the context, you can click back from my original quote here. I just truncated the rest, I didn't change the meaning.

It's about who has the most time now, it'll be about who has the most time after these changes are implemented. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Esk

All that i can see happening is a huge chuck on items being removed from the game so people grind on a different item and they are ones that still get vender'd as everyone and their mom makes them now.

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So why would they remove items from the game if you can sell them to NPCs for gil? Even if it's not a lot of gil it's better then nothing. You never sold a few items to a NPC just so you can buy that 1 piece you REALLY wanted? lol I know people who LIVED off of selling crap they never used to NPCs and made a killing after runs.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Some people simply don't want to invest the time or money to raise a craft to make their own stuff.

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Exactly. And that is why the majority dont like the changes. I get all the Gil i make out of Crafting. If everyone can make their Shit without having any Subclasses, without a lot of effort ( which ive been putting in for Month ), then the Economy will drop. Its not about beeing easier. Im all up for Recipe changes, since some of the are really retarded, but SE is seriously getting rid of almost everything which belongs to crafting. That is like making a Street straight, without any curves or traffics or w/e. Everyone can reach their goal without any Problems. And a Craftingsystem shouldnt be THAT easy. Adjustments are fine.. but totally screwing it up, is not fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cursive

when i say the system, i mean the current one...the one we have right now. maybe i wasn't very clear or you misread my posts?

im 100% for these changes.

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I just may have LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiote

That is exactly what I have tried to point out repeatedly. They aren't trying to fix crafting or make it fun. They are just trying to make it so easy no one has to try.

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how does streamlining it and making it efficient make it easy? do you have any idea how to hq items? being able to make a piece of gear and grinding to 50 is easy regardless of how stupidly complicated a recipe is. making that same item well (hq) is quite different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Where did they say they were removing guild mark rewards? They said they are making new recipes not require facility and treatise bonuses but are considering alternate ways to make them more useful in the future.

Not required =/= removed.

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Not required might as well be removed since they will be rendered useless. Lets hope they actually do give them another purpose, otherwise I want all my marks back.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Not required might as well be removed since they will be rendered useless. Lets hope they actually do give them another purpose, otherwise I want all my marks back.

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They'll get another purpose, just like Fatigue Bonus XP..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Not required might as well be removed since they will be rendered useless. Lets hope they actually do give them another purpose, otherwise I want all my marks back.

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But it is not removed. I imagine it will still give you a success bonus as it usually does but it's not REQUIRED to actually finish the item. They blatantly stated they're already considering alternatives.