Stoneskin II

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Originally Posted by M0xie

I wouldn't say inferiority complex really. Also, not as "OMG AWESOME" as we expected. Again, WHM have plenty of heals yes, but too much hate, and not much else to do but stone spam or holy spam; I guess every little advantage is something?

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Plenty of heals - which, for a healer, I'd say it's great.

Whm is ESSENTIAL in FCoB. Try to keep everyone alive during Flames of Rebirth without one.

The point is, seems to me that the first ones believing that WHM is inferior to SCH are WHMs themselves, which is kinda dumb imho. Switch to SCH if you hate WHM so badly - just be ready to wipe a lot, with 2 SCH.

this thread is still going

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...ats-dafuq1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Felis

I'm sure Sacred Soil don't keep enemies outside of the circle.
This barrier create a savespot around the caster.

http://www.miingno.ch/wp-content/upl...12/08/r013.jpg

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MUST NEEDS and I will never SCH again <3

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Plenty of heals - which, for a healer, I'd say it's great.

Whm is ESSENTIAL in FCoB. Try to keep everyone alive during Flames of Rebirth without one.

The point is, seems to me that the first ones believing that WHM is inferior to SCH are WHMs themselves, which is kinda dumb imho. Switch to SCH if you hate WHM so badly - just be ready to wipe a lot, with 2 SCH.

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I play SCH also and haven't wiped yet with 2 in a party. Then again that party was not in any Coil. It's just more fun and much easier (/hug fairy). I still see WHM as my "main" though, which now that I read my own posts I have to wonder about :D

Well, the crux of that is that conjurers have to be mindful of their actions. Healing AND DDing are a tricky dance and people lately take offense if all a conjurer does is heal or DD. Scholars are more able to do the dance because they can heal and DD at the same time thanks to the faerie. It's the faerie that does alot of the offset in healing disparity between Scholar and conjurer. Yes, conjurer has more area heals (like, what, 1-2 more?) but we can't heal from two different points on the field like a Scholar can, greatly increasing healing range or perhaps just flat out staying out of harm's way. Point being there's little difference in healing potential, but quite a bit in utility.

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Originally Posted by M0xie

MUST NEEDS and I will never SCH again <3

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She also have another trick we don't have

http://www.dannykang.net/wordpress/w...8_09.22.49.jpg

Telekinese ^^

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Originally Posted by Felis

She also have another trick we don't have

http://www.dannykang.net/wordpress/w...8_09.22.49.jpg

Telekinese ^^

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GUYS THOSE ARE BULLETS, HEALING AGENT CONFIRMED

DUN DUN DA DUH, DUN DA DA!!!

http://i.imgur.com/5bK8c.gif

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Originally Posted by Adeline

GUYS THOSE ARE BULLETS, HEALING AGENT CONFIRMED

DUN DUN DA DUH, DUN DA DA!!!

http://i.imgur.com/5bK8c.gif

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Not really. She don't shoot herself.
In motion it look better. There you can see that she use herself as a barrier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...2dRecpMQ#t=105

Grekumah, can SCH have untraited SSII also please?

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Originally Posted by M0xie

I play SCH also and haven't wiped yet with 2 in a party. Then again that party was not in any Coil. It's just more fun and much easier (/hug fairy). I still see WHM as my "main" though, which now that I read my own posts I have to wonder about :D

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Anything outside FCoB is currently irrelevant for balance.

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Originally Posted by Naelle

This thread is dumb. No good Scholar is going to give up aero, swiftcast, cleric stance, protect , or stoneskin for an out of combat only aoe stoneskin. Make it available if you want but don't forget it's a level 50 spell.

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lol yes even if SCHs can use SSII, there will be no free CC slot for it.

So the fact you can heal and shield the entire raid in 1 cast taking 2.5 seconds during combat isn't enough for you? or the fact you have 2 shields? Have you ever seen Stoneskin fall off due to time not damage? A lot of encounters have raid wide damage at some point which will knock off any remaining stoneskin which cannot be recast on the entire raid with ease but you can and can drop a 2nd shield on the tank and can heal them for 25% of their damage while healing someone else and while dropping an AoE damage reducing shield around the raid .... wait your right this is totally unfair. Why are WHM's getting the shaft here?

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Originally Posted by DSN

So the fact you can heal and shield the entire raid in 1 cast taking 2.5 seconds during combat isn't enough for you? or the fact you have 2 shields? Have you ever seen Stoneskin fall off due to time not damage? A lot of encounters have raid wide damage at some point which will knock off any remaining stoneskin which cannot be recast on the entire raid with ease but you can and can drop a 2nd shield on the tank and can heal them for 25% of their damage while healing someone else and while dropping an AoE damage reducing shield around the raid .... wait your right this is totally unfair. Why are WHM's getting the shaft here?

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Congratulations on missing the point entirely, as many have before you. You seem to be fighting some "WHM vs SCH" war nobody else can see. Stoneskin II is nothing but convenience, it has nothing to do with power or utility.

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Originally Posted by DSN

So the fact you can heal and shield the entire raid in 1 cast taking 2.5 seconds during combat isn't enough for you? or the fact you have 2 shields? Have you ever seen Stoneskin fall off due to time not damage? A lot of encounters have raid wide damage at some point which will knock off any remaining stoneskin which cannot be recast on the entire raid with ease but you can and can drop a 2nd shield on the tank and can heal them for 25% of their damage while healing someone else and while dropping an AoE damage reducing shield around the raid .... wait your right this is totally unfair. Why are WHM's getting the shaft here?

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They aren't. Say anyone, even WAR's with Defiance but of course they're a special case, has 5000 HP.

My Succor (which is the closest analogue to Stoneskin 2 yet also SCH's only direct AoE heal that isn't a HoT thus really the closest analogue to Medica) solo right now does around 460 and almost 700 crit at i110, so that's a 460 shield, 700 if lucky. Untraited SS would shield for 500, traited shields for 900, so a WHM by himself would still shield for more regardless. Sure you can combine both as a SCH, so that would be 460 + 500 = 960, just very slightly higher than a WHM would shield by himself if you even get lucky to get the higher rolls, and 700 + 500 = 1200 if one or more party members get lucky.

Now Adlo does 900-945 and a crit does 1430 something so sure an Adlo shields more especially combined with any SS. Which isn't really on topic or relevant anyway, and also Adlo costs more to cast than a SS, Adlo can't be overridden halfway except by a higher Adlo, it only lasts 30 seconds vs 30 min which means SS should stay longer because it usually takes quite a while for AoE damage to happen in most of the game' content and Adlo-ing every party member before a fight a la Stoneskin is just a waste of time because it'll fall off by the time you're at the bottom of the list or by the time AoE damage happens, especially on 8 man parties.

Simple solution in that case would be to just round up the SS trait to 20% if you really think WHM SS needs more extra shielding I guess, honestly never understood why they just left it at 18%. Which again is just missing the point of this thread because SS2 or whatever you wanna call it is just there to save time casting SS on everyone at the start or in between pulls, that's it, that's all it is.

As you pointed out your various abilities and how they work do you really think adding Stoneskin II to SCH is only a QoL adjustment or is even required?

The two healers have different utilities and functions in how they work, WHM is more a pure healing class where SCH is more damage mitigation / reduction. While no one is stopping you from casting Stoneskin on your entire party or raid it comes with the cost of time. As you obviously get how these spells work and scale do the math on what your total damage mitigation would be with everything up and tell me both classes are on par.

My out of combat precast of Stoneskin II will be lost at first AoE Damage. Arguments over the time it lasts really is irrelevant as mine is cast before combat starts and relies on people to dodge properly to be up when the AoE damage occurs to be safe or take reduced damage whereas you can cast Succor as the AoE damage is being cast and cover those who lost their initial shield a few minutes into combat as you pointed out most of the AoE damage occurs in the middle of a phase or as a phase transition making your shields better for reactionary or event based damage compared to Stoneskin. While sure it is nice to be able to Stoneskin myself in town and have it last while I am running around I am also not doing anything and it really serves no purpose here as I am not taking damage and the first anything I do that requires level sync it is removed and requires being recast anyways.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Congratulations on missing the point entirely, as many have before you. You seem to be fighting some "WHM vs SCH" war nobody else can see. Stoneskin II is nothing but convenience, it has nothing to do with power or utility.

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It would seem that you are all missing the point and are just on the jelly train. I get that we got something new and shiny and you did not and that sucks, however when you look at the utility of each class, how your current spells work and what Quality of Life means or the impact of giving you another shield you can cast on the entire party / raid before a pull and what that does to your initial damage mitigation numbers. While you can do this manually it does come at the cost of time so giving you the same QoL change that was given to WHM does impact your class more than just the QoL which was awarded to WHM's is what you are failing to see.

WHM already has a skill that increases their spellspeed, so by that logic they didn't even need Stoneskin 2 either because they can just pop Presence of Mind and SS everyone fast, like they had already been doing anyway. The only way for SCH to get that increase in spellspeed is to summon Selene, losing their only HoT in combat while WHM get to keep both increased spell speed and two HoTs, or getting lucky and hoping your fairy procs the trait that gets you a 6 sec increase in spellspeed. So again WHM still has the advantage, an advantage that really isn't that big of a deal anyway because both classes are probably the most balanced, as balanced as the tanks are, as in they both complement each other really well by design.

Any way you slice it, SE messed up with their implementation of Stoneskin 2 when it could have been handled much better, there's no reason to try and make up some convoluted apologizing for it.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Any way you slice it, SE messed up with their implementation of Stoneskin 2 when it could have been handled much better, .

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I just read that last sentence and it just blew my mind, WTF? How did they "Mess up" their implementation. It is a WHM skill, Stoneskin is a whm skill. It isn't a SCH skill, SCH doesn't need it - People need to get over it. SE made no mistake here nor did they not do SCH's justice. SCH's having Stoneskin II doesn't matter, doesn't make a difference nor does it make them less viable. Both healers are still balanced. This thread lacks any basis of understanding or cognitive thought, it just sounds like the whines of a select few who think that SCH should get every thing that WHM has. Groups aren't going to open up PF now and make a title "WHM ONLY FOR HEALER, DONT WANNA WAIT ON STONESKINS".

Again who the heck stoneskins the whole part as SCH anyway? I mean what fight does this even matter on?

I love how scholars want to whine that they are getting the short end of a stick. So lets redirect this animosity a bit.

Scholars get an upgrade to their skill set EVERY single time the item level goes up. Lustrate is based on total hps. Cure II, III, Medica, Medica II, etc nothing goes up like that. Our skills are locked down to our stats.

Scholars have no room to argue in any way shape or form so they should drop it and live with it imo. Hell they get to benefit from the bonus anyway since their crap stoneskin ability wont even be used if paired with a whm.

On that note I would sure love to be in a position with my whm where I had to pick and choose which cross class abilities to use since I cant have all the ones I want like some classes have. Instead we get 4 that are great and 1 slot that we fill something with but, at least in my case, have never once used for any reason whatsoever.

I have to agree with the OP, this QoL change should be given to SCH as well. Since it's only castable outside of battle and the only time a SCH would use it is when there isn't a WHM in the party I don't see how it would hurt anybody. SCH stoneskin is still weaker due to the lack of stoneskin trait so why not improve the quality of their lives to?

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

Scholars get an upgrade to their skill set EVERY single time the item level goes up. Lustrate is based on total hps. Cure II, III, Medica, Medica II, etc nothing goes up like that. Our skills are locked down to our stats.

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Last I checked WHM gets an ability called benediction that's a 100% heal regardless of stats but ok.. To me that means if the person you're healing has more hp then you're healing them for more. Whm also gets regen and an AoE mass heal + regen that stacks with the ST regen. Calling SCH OP in comparison to whm is silly in my opinion, the jobs are very balanced at the moment in my opinion.

This is a QoL change for healers so they don't have to single target Stoneskin everybody in the party, I would agree that SCH shouldn't get it if it were useable in battle but it's not.

They messed up by not baking the out of combat AoE into Stoneskin and by not making it cross class the way they actually implemented it. If you don't Stoneskin, you're a bad healer especially in dungeons, especially knowing damage is coming, especially since there's no downside not to, especially since Swiftcast + SS2 is great in between pulls.

Again, it's just saving time, it's all there is and I'll be laughing the second they make it cross class, which they're most likely already planning on by 2.48.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Last I checked benediction is not based on your stats, if you're comparing lustrate (SCHs version of benediction essentially) to anything aside from benediction then in my opinion it's an unfair comparison.

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Last I checked Lustrate didnt have a 5 min Cooldown

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Originally Posted by Roris

They messed up by not baking the out of combat AoE into Stoneskin and by not making it cross class the way they actually implemented it. If you don't Stoneskin, you're a bad healer especially in dungeons, especially knowing damage is coming, especially since there's no downside not to, especially since Swiftcast + SS2 is great in between pulls.

Again, it's just saving time, it's all there is and I'll be laughing the second they make it cross class, which they're most likely already planning on by 2.48.

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Lol, I can't believe people think this XD. You could do every dungeon in this game without Protect and be just fine. I don't think I'd judge a healer on how they stoneskin in dungeons. I almost never expect a SCH to use unless they need to mitigate more damage than an adlo would. Which is very seldom. Stoneskin is a very niche skill on SCH, very niche.

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Originally Posted by DSN

Last I checked Lustrate didnt have a 5 min Cooldown

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Last I checked the overall healing potency of medica 2 is 700 potency per player (200 pot from initial heal and then an additional 500 pot over 30s), but what do I know. Benediction should definitely have a shorter CD, then WHM can have the best instant and the best potency cure and AoE cure in the entire game.

Plus, a good SCH doesn't spend all of their aetherflow on lustrate, there are other abilities that require it, like sacred soil, bane and energy drain. Only a terrible SCH is going to blow every stack of aetherflow on lustrate.

Please don't get me wrong, I have nothing against whm and I play both jobs. That's why they seem pretty even ended in my opinion, I'm just disagreeing with people who are essentially calling SCH OP when it is very much not.

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

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I AM not hating on WHMs at all which you seem to think I am. I have no animosity at all towards WHMs. I love my WHM partner in coil.

I will repeat myself yet again. Our in battle skills are completely IRRELEVANT to this conversation. Can we stop turning this into a WHM vs SCH whine fest because that's NOT what this convo is about. This is about a single QUALITY OF LIFE skill that no one can tell me why should be WHM only besides the fact that it makes them feel special. Can we all agree that SSII has no effect on in battle balance at all? Please?

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Lol, I can't believe people think this XD. You could do every dungeon in this game without Protect and be just fine. I don't think I'd judge a healer on how they stoneskin in dungeons. I almost never expect a SCH to use unless they need to mitigate more damage than an adlo would. Which is very seldom. Stoneskin is a very niche skill on SCH, very niche.

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Well sounds like you've just had lazy Scholars then, in dungeons and HM trials it's always great to have that extra protection, someone will bound to get hit even if there isn't an AoE coming, so you can stay longer in Cleric Stance. So if you think it's niche because you haven't seen many Scholars do it then I'm sorry for your experiences.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

I AM not hating on WHMs at all which you seem to think I am. I have no animosity at all towards WHMs. I love my WHM partner in coil.

I will repeat myself yet again. Our in battle skills are completely IRRELEVANT to this conversation. Can we stop turning this into a WHM vs SCH whine fest because that's NOT what this convo is about. This is about a single QUALITY OF LIFE skill that no one can tell me why should be WHM only besides the fact that it makes them feel special. Can we all agree that SSII has no effect on in battle balance at all? Please?

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It's sad that people are still trying to make this a healer vs healer thing. I agree entirely with you, especially as someone who plays both and likes them both but is only really good at one.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Well sounds like you've just had lazy Scholars then

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Sorry I play almost exclusively with a SCH that has healed through and cleared content that most sch's will never see. But she is lazy... very lazy in dungeons.. But that doesn't matter because dungeons are braindead easy, stoneskin on the whole party is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Sorry I play almost exclusively with a SCH that has healed through and cleared content that most sch's will never see. But she is lazy... very lazy in dungeons.. But that doesn't matter because dungeons are braindead easy, stoneskin on the whole party is not needed.

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So Stoneskin 2 isn't needed then? Might as well have them remove it from the game then, you've heard it here first folks.

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Originally Posted by Roris

So Stoneskin 2 isn't needed then? Might as well have them remove it from the game then, you've heard it here first folks.

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I mean obviously it was never needed. Its a QoL for WHM's who Pre-stoneskin for raid fights. SCH doesn't need this QoL, they need other QoL changes though.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

I mean obviously it was never needed. Its a QoL for WHM's who Pre-stoneskin for raid fights. SCH doesn't need this QoL, they need other QoL changes though.

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Why don't we? As has been stated, SCH is oftentimes the only healer, so why not give them this QoL change as well?

NAYSAYERS: Stoneskin II is MERELY for speeding up the PRE-PULL buffing process. SCH ALREADY has access to Stoneskin I, so SCH can already buff the party with it (since it stacks with Lustrate) if they want.

Giving SCH Stoneskin II adds NOTHING to their combat-prowess as it is OUT-OF-COMBAT ONLY.

Stop the debate.

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Originally Posted by Corfish

Why don't we? As has been stated, SCH is oftentimes the only healer, so why not give them this QoL change as well?

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This thread is full on kiddos who are made that their friend got a new racecar and they want one too. So childish and pointless.

Thematically it wouldn't make sense, Stoneskin II is the next tier for WHM's Stoneskin. It is their AoE ability - Deal with it.

SCH's literally have 0 need for this skill. This was intended for WHM's and only WHM's. In every scenario where you NEED someone to cast stoneskin on the whole party it was in a raid scenario where a WHM will be required. There are literally 0 other needs for it outside of that.

TL;DR of this whole thread :

Whiny SCH's are jealous of WHM's stoneskin, can't see that every class is different and they want the same thing that WHM has.

But it changes literally nothing. It speeds up pulls. That is all it does. And thematically who cares, I'm already using stoneskin...

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

TL;DR of this whole thread :

Whiny SCH's are jealous of WHM's stoneskin, can't see that every class is different and they want the same thing that WHM has.

Whiny WHMs need to cast SS on the whole party faster than SCHs to feel special and don't want to share their new toy with them. They can't see that SCHs can ALREADY cast SS on the whole party and what we're talking about here is about making the lives of SCHs a bit easier.

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Fixed it for you.

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Originally Posted by Corfish

But it changes literally nothing. It speeds up pulls. That is all it does. And thematically who cares, I'm already using stoneskin...

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I don't think it matters either way, I think expressing anger or discontent over it is silly. I think that urging SE to "Do something about it" when there is much more that needs to be done is silly. I also think the mentality of the SCH's that are pushing really hard for it to happen is extremely silly.

Either way it goes it won't have an impact on the game, so why should resources be devoted to making it happen.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

I don't think it matters either way, I think expressing anger or discontent over it is silly. I think that urging SE to "Do something about it" when there is much more that needs to be done is silly. I also think the mentality of the SCH's that are pushing really hard for it to happen is extremely silly.

Either way it goes it won't have an impact on the game, so why should resources be devoted to making it happen.

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I'm calling SE out on their mishandling of this. What's wrong with that? Or should we just allow SE to implement things in a half assed manner and let it slide because "oh there's more important things to worry about." WHMs fought hard to have this QoL change and were rightly rewarded for their efforts. Why can't SCHs do the same? Because somehow us having the same thing is less worth it?

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

I'm calling SE out on their mishandling of this. What's wrong with that? Or should we just allow SE to implement things in a half assed manner and let it slide because "oh there's more important things to worry about." WHMs fought hard to have this QoL change and were rightly rewarded for their efforts. Why can't SCHs do the same? Because somehow us having the same thing is less worth it?

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I just don't understand how SE mishandled this? Stoneskin has always been a CNJ skill, they even get a trait. SCH's just borrow it but it was never theirs. SCH's have had access to Succor since the beginning, I'm sure every WHM would like a skill like Succor, or a big shield to put on the tank like Adlo. There is a lot of QoL things that SCH has that WHM doesnt, that I'm sure every WHM would want but the fact is they are different classes with different skills. This concept is so simple and easy to understand yet you don't really seem to grasp it.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

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What you're not grasping is that the SCH skills you're talking about are NOT QoL. Quality of Life means that gameplay itself is not affected and it only adds to convenience. How does giving WHMs integral skills of the SCH arsenal not affect game balance? Or do you want versions of succor, aetherflow etc that do nothing in battle? Sure you can have them. Succor lasts 30 seconds and doesn't last long enough to shield most damage on the party so it's pretty useless as a pre shield. Aetherflow is a CORE part of the SCH design. We don't just use it for mana regen and tbh, the mana regen on it for me isn't even the main reason why I refresh it every minute. I refresh it every minute to use up stacks on sacred soil IN BATTLE etc. How would that not be balance breaking? I'm asking for a skill that lets me shave off maybe 10 SECONDS before battle on a full party. How does that even equate to what you're asking for?

Edit: Would you be happy if I said you could have a non game breaking version of any of our SCH skills if WHMs really wanted them? By non game breaking I mean, can only be used out of battle and only serves to better your life in a very small, small way.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Either way it goes it won't have an impact on the game, so why should resources be devoted to making it happen.

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You mean the same resources that were devoted to making Stoneskin 2 happen right after it was suggested at Fanfest, especially when back when it was first suggested on the forums the same type of people had the same "it's not needed it won't have an impact stop being entitled and asking SE for things" mentality? You mean the same resources that also keep being allocated to vanity stuff free or paid and still not fixing other inherent flaws like Benediction and all HP related operations having a very noticeable delay?

If it's really that great, just play WHM.