Coil mode for main story

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Originally Posted by billydata21

The only way this is a good idea is if you have the option to put the buff up and no good loot drops if you have it on you.

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It doesn't matter because when this buff comes up the good loot will only drop from turn 6+

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Originally Posted by Gandora

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If one puts in even a tiny ounce of effort, they ARE capable of seeing any kind of content SE releases, regardless of being "casual" or not, SE doesn't need to or even should have to add multiple difficulties to help people who aren't even willing to play the content they create without screaming "OMG EZ MODE PLZ, DERP I TES WANT TO SEE TEH STORIEZ OMG I HAVE TEH LIFS, GIMME EZ MODE !!!"

This logic makes no sense.

Why is Square Enix taking content away from the hardcore community again? Are they making old casual content hardcore after a while? No? So why are they making hardcore content casual after a while?

If I want to relive the challenging content in ff14 in the future I simply won't be able to because that crutch buff will be there and I doubt i'll find a party that won't want to use it. Plus allagan will start dropping like candy, so that "hardcore" gear that's supposed to signify good players immediately becomes redundant once the floodgates are opened.

To reiterate, as they add new content, the amount of casual content in the game will completely overwhelm hardcore content.
>Coil 1-5 will become casual post-nerf
>HM primals will become casual post-nerf

So the casual players have all this content while the hardcore community is stuck grinding the little hardcore content that is there. I just don't see it. What's going on at SE?

"bububut I want to see story" Too bad, its a reward for completing the difficult content. Since you all felt youtube was a bad suggestion this is what I really wanted to say.

So admit your just not good enough to see the final parts of the story and watch it on youtube or man up and do the content, two perfectly resonable options.

Or "gasp" wait for the nerfs that square enix said would come after more progressive content is out, another valid option.



Let me reiterate this.

Seeing the end of the story is a reward for the players who can finish coils.

PS - ive done turn 5 and the story was certainly great and interesting addition to completing coils.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

This logic makes no sense.

Why is Square Enix taking content away from the hardcore community again? Are they making old casual content hardcore after a while? No? So why are they making hardcore content casual after a while?

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An example of old casual content becoming hardcore is the extreme mode primals. Sort of, anyway. Also if you've actually been part of a hardcore community you know that in most cases the more reasonable players no longer care if people are playing nerfed outdated content because they're already on to the next hardest raid that's out.

Its kinda sad that people actually want their hands to be held through this game. Easymode coil would ruin the experience and satisfaction, along with the skill you develop by going through coil.

And if I may add to my previous post, as there's no edit post button on the mobile version of the site: There is plenty of casual-accessible content as is, please stop trying to ruin it for the players who actually like a challenge because "m-muh story."

I like the OPs idea which is all fine and good, but the Devs response annoys me. Can't we have some difficult content in the game? Why do we have to nerf things all the time. The hard content forces people to actually learn how to do their jobs, be a team, and not carry people through to more content who have no idea what's going on or how to play the game. Too many times I have been though duty finder and find a tank with relic and they cant even complete a wanderer's palace.

It sounds to me like the player buffs will come when more hardcore content is released. In other words, you'll get Primal extremes, while they buff players for Primal HMs. Why would you have a problem with that? It allows the people that want a challenge to move on to a great challenge, while making older content (that you've likely done a hundred times) easier for everyone else. It's in SE best interest to make the game accessible to all walks of life. And honestly, it's in your best interest too. There are probably 10 casual players to every one "hardcore". If you stop these people's progression, then why should they continue to pay SE money every month?

Buffing players in older content when new content releases should make everyone happy. Everyone gets to progress in the way they personally want to. Having a long blockade of difficult content to separate the hardcore and the casual is always a horrible idea. Keeping it at 1 tier is enough.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

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absolutely nothing is stopping them from completing the content,besides themselves, from the posts here i've read , they would rather just wait till it's nerfed into the ground so it doesn't require much of them

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

However, I am still left with no understanding of why something like this would devalue anyone else's experience.

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It makes it easier which in turn makes the win feel less satisfying. That can devalue other player's experiences. Unless of course if it's an option you can toggle on/off but if that happened there would need to be some form of penalty for using the buffs unless most people would just refuse to do the normal mode without buffs in anyway.
But yeah making it easier can devalue other people's experience who enjoy the challenge. I personally really enjoy shmups. If I had the harder difficulties taken out of the games I played then I would get bored fast and just not bother to play anymore. Just wouldn't be fun.
Perhaps not the best example though as the difficulty in those games is part of what makes me love them.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

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I'm a troll because I think people should at least ATTEMPT said content before asking for a nerf? Asking for a story mode dungeon is asking for a nerfed dungeon. Half the people here asking for a story mode, haven't even attempted Coil yet, they aren't even CLOSE, not in gear wise, but level wise to doing it. All they know is that people said it's hard. Then they give reasons like "it's not my play style" "Why should I have to gear up to experience hard content?" " I don't raid, I don't care about end game" " I don't want to grind to get better gear, that's not fair!" ._. With reasons like those, there doesn't need to be a story mode for an optional raid and SE apparently doesn't think so either, hmm go figure.

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Originally Posted by Ptolemy

absolutely nothing is stopping them from completing the content,besides themselves, from the posts here i've read , they would rather just wait till it's nerfed into the ground so it doesn't require much of them

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You're not getting the point. Their motives don't matter in the slightest. The most important thing is that you balance the game so that everyone feels compelled to continue playing. If the more casual player wants to wait until Coil is nerfed/they're buffed while in coil, who cares? By then, turns 6+ will be available and people that played 1-5 for months will have moved on. Both groups get their preferred type of content and SE continues to make money. Or would you rather make the game a hardcore paradise were casuals leave once they hit 50 because they don't want to die on Titan HM 50 times and never get their relic?

I'll start by saying I'm new to mmos and find myself wiping on some of the easier dungeons. Personally, I'm not keen on dungeon nerfs/player buffs. These fights are a challenge and I want to improve to be able to succeed. I don't particularly want SE to dumb down stuff so that I feel better about myself/the game. >.> It will have the opposite effect. I do feel that the game is actually pretty easy overall seeing that I'm level 50 already, but what do I have to compare it to?

I've met a number of players who say the game is "too easy". The only time I feel bad is when I mention that I wiped for the 5th time on Garuda HM and some other player is "LOL Garuda is so easy!L2P!" But that's not a problem with the game difficulty, that's a problem with assholes. :)

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

In the future, instead of creating easy modes of dungeons the team plans to add powerful buffs to players that will make difficult dungeons (including Binding Coil of Bahamut) easier to complete.

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This is the way LotRO and a few other games went. It allows for development flexibility leaving content stable. Can't get 8 people? Buff 4 to do an 8 man dungeon. Many of the lower level dungeons nobody ran in LotRO you could solo through signature buffing. They were hard as hell but you could do it. It's really all about how far you want to take it.

Here it would allow people to at least get a lay of the dungeon, learn the moves, learn the core attack moves before duty finder queue.

Bosses are a part of the story and boss difficulty is a part of their story. What does it tell you about a boss when it takes a great deal of effort to beat vs a boss than can be steamrolled.
Do you remember anything about the boss in Tamtara? Now do you remember the dragon that kicked your butt for weeks before you finally overcame it?
Part of the story is their strength. Denying them their strength is denying yourself a part of the story you do desperately crave.

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Originally Posted by Ptolemy

absolutely nothing is stopping them from completing the content,besides themselves, from the posts here i've read , they would rather just wait till it's nerfed into the ground so it doesn't require much of them

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So what is the problem?

I fail to see why so many "hardcore" players complain about this, by the time the nerf comes we will have higher content, with stronger items as rewards. Turn 1-5 are going to be easier anyway just by having that gear.. And if you can turn off the buff just do it, no one will stop you from equipping old gear and running old content. And you'll say you won't find others that want to do this, and well... Guess what? That's because only a very tiny minority cares to do that. So yes, you're in the minority. Sorry.... (minority of minority, cause a lot of the hardcore players that care for that level of a challenge prefer new content, we all know old content we have already cleared is significantly easier) and even if this wasn't the case, then you would just find more players that want to.

People like feeling like special snowflakes just because other people are not able to do stuff they do. Even though they will have new content and gear by then, apparently that is not enough of a barrier.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

I'll start by saying I'm new to mmos and find myself wiping on some of the easier dungeons. Personally, I'm not keen on dungeon nerfs/player buffs. These fights are a challenge and I want to improve to be able to succeed. I don't particularly want SE to dumb down stuff so that I feel better about myself/the game. >.> It will have the opposite effect. I do feel that the game is actually pretty easy overall seeing that I'm level 50 already, but what do I have to compare it to?

I've met a number of players who say the game is "too easy". The only time I feel bad is when I mention that I wiped for the 5th time on Garuda HM and some other player is "LOL Garuda is so easy!L2P!" But that's not a problem with the game difficulty, that's a problem with assholes. :)

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And you shouldn't feel bad, and neither worry about content getting nerfed, because it will get nerfed, and ocne it's nerfed there will be more hard content, so you'll have always something to challenge yourself with.... And if there isn't. Then the players that seek to challenge themselves with content will just quit. Sad? Maybe. But that's the way it is, there will be other games that present harder or equal challenges too. Having said that. I doubt SE will remove the challenge from top end-game. Because that is something that people always want, even if it's a small percentage of the players.

On another note, I've wiped HM garuda too? So what. xD It's not only about how you perform, it is not a solo dungeon. And even if every player in there were very experienced and skilled and what not, you could still wipe to lack of coordination and just poor sync overall between players (maybe garuda is not the example for the lattest, but it still can happen and will happen on harder content, why it won't happen on garuda? because it simply doesn't require that much gear, and yes, sadly, gear allows you to avoid coordination and mechanichs and such, it just makes it easier).

If everyone went and did garuda in AF gear (the ilvl 50 and 55 set) with equal items for their other slots, then it would require much more skill, and groups of experienced players could wipe easily too.

It sounds like to me the hardcore players want to kick out the casual players.

I know there is going to be more content coming out. And it isn't nice to belittle people who have reading comprehension problems.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

It is equivalent to working hard to get something for along time, then it becoming a simple joke that anyone can do without really trying.

Like getting a college degree and high school grad ends up with your same job at the same pay. Casuals need to simply step it up. Having limited play time is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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If MMO companies listened to garbage like this, they would quickly lose the majority of their playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Bufkus

If MMO companies listened to garbage like this, they would quickly lose the majority of their playerbase.

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Huh, so why is it SWTOR failed quickly and had to relaunch F2P? Why is it Tera failed quickly and had to relaunch F2P? Why is it ATB failed and had to relaunch? Why is it majority of new Korean MMOs failed and had to relaunch as a "Sequel"? Why is it Chinese MMOs continue to fail and relaunch as 'Sequels'? Why is it a lot of Asian MMO developers are scared to localize their MMO to the western markets?

Sorry, but what Xatsh said is far from what would axe a playerbase compared to..you know, lack of content, poor gameplay systems and overall boring MMO - That loses players much faster.

To all of you want an easy mode for coil, let me try to explain why people are fighting you so hard on the issue. I do not consider myself an "elitist" or hardcore in the least. Adding an easy mode and just allowing anyone to run coil right out of the gate pretty much takes all of the game, out of the game. To many of us, it would make it to where you are literally watching yourself play, rather than actually participating. And how would you get there?? Do you have to still kill Titan HM to unlock easy mode of coil, because that makes no sense, unless you add a Titan Hard Mode Easy Mode. It sounds extreme and dramatic, but adding easy modes to all the content would literally be the death of the entire game, and the entire experience. I know you may not see it that way, and that it's a matter of perspective, but just know that's how many people see it, myself included.

Us old timers come from a time when picking up a game was like a little project. You could work on it a while, learn about it and practice, and you'd get further. It was a game. I'm including lore heavy experiences as well. Even games in this very series. I LOVE becoming immersed in lore and gameworlds, but I also like to play the game, as well. Final Fantasy isn't a particularly demanding MMO either, and to many of us it seems like SE bends over backwards to make everything very attainable to everyone, casual players included. I believe they have accomplished this. I haven't completed Coil, and as of now I have that to work towards. If they added an easy mode I could just run coil in a day and have nothing to work towards. Then what? That would be removing a massive goal in a game where goals are needed to keep people playing.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

This is the way LotRO and a few other games went. It allows for development flexibility leaving content stable. Can't get 8 people? Buff 4 to do an 8 man dungeon. Many of the lower level dungeons nobody ran in LotRO you could solo through signature buffing. They were hard as hell but you could do it. It's really all about how far you want to take it.

Here it would allow people to at least get a lay of the dungeon, learn the moves, learn the core attack moves before duty finder queue.

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And get good gear handed to them, basically. You forgot that part :p

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

Those are not the hardcore players themselves, just the players that need to feel special, and can't get enough of it.

Or simply idiots who can't comprehend what they read and don't realise they will have more content, and T1-5 will be irrelevant challenge for them anyway.

It's not hardcore attitude, just selfish and close-minded.

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The irony of your statement is players like you (assuming since you know, it's mostly players like you who attack "hardcore" players) want everything handed to them and doesn't even want to try to push through tough content and rather want content nerfed into the ground and able to breeze through it - Doesn't that make you more selfish and close minded? This is an era of very easy MMOs and might I remind you an era where MMOs tend to fail very quickly and end up with a lack of content through it's lifespan because of said ease of content? People enjoy the challenge of the coil because out of this entire game, it's one that actually utilizes your job to the max.

So it's not selfish that people enjoy that.

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You're forgetting the part that when the content gets nerfed, that gear and rewards are irrelevant to the new content. And there are ways of making the original allagan set accomplished special too, it could have either a marking on the tooltip, or different coloring. It doesn't justify leaving casual players off the experience.

And just so you know, I enjoy doing top end game content. In fact, that's what I enjoy the most out of what game content would be. Doing hard modes and such. Even though I haven't done too much in ARR. I have experience in other games doing hardcore content, and here I am on T5 as of now.

I know it's nice having those shiny items that not many others have, but you need to also understand where they stand. And also understand that this isnt simply catering to lazy people, it is also giving the opportunity to all the other players that are not as skilled as you are, have the chance to complete and experience this content. And in some cases no matter how much experience they get they just can't get it right, for whatever different reason it may be.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

Those are not the hardcore players themselves, just the players that need to feel special, and can't get enough of it.

Or simply idiots who can't comprehend what they read and don't realise they will have more content, and T1-5 will be irrelevant challenge for them anyway.

It's not hardcore attitude, just selfish and close-minded.

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It is equivalent to working hard to get something for along time, then it becoming a simple joke that anyone can do without really trying.

Like getting a college degree and high school grad ends up with your same job at the same pay. Casuals need to simply step it up. Having limited play time is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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And I agree with you... But one thing are university and highschool degrees, where they come as proof that you actually know something, they are applied in real-life on things that actually matter to the world and can have serious consecuences if not done right. You can't just compare a shiny piece of allagan gear with a university degree... Makes completely no sense.

And yes, difficulty in the educational field being dumbed down is just terrible. But that's another discussion.

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Originally Posted by LadyVaJedi

I know there is going to be more content coming out. And it isn't nice to belittle people who have reading comprehension problems.

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It isn't nice for people who have reading comprehension problems to come in and bash others with shit that was never said nor implied?
Some people post stuff that's just off.

And just to clarify, it wasn't exacly directed to people with reading comprehension, but rather the ones that don't bother paying attention to what they read, or straight out not reading it at all.

I would like an easy variant of Coil, at least with reduced level gear (or no gear at all), just so I can go through the plot.

I've read some select spoilers online, but honestly, no one in my FC Alliance (admittedly an alliance made up of RP FCs, but still) has the strength, skill, or interest to even think of attempting Coil. It's unfortunate, but that's the choice I've made.

However, even with that, I have run Coil T1 with some more endgame-oriented FCs looking for people, and we just kept wiping.

I mean obviously, stuff like Crystal Tower and Pharos Sirus should ease the difficulty substantially by granting easier access to higher level gear beyond Darklight/Darksteel, but some of us just want to experience the story just once over.

It's not like this request would destroy traditional Coil. It'd just add an easier version with reduced-quality or removed rewards that would allow people who actually care about the story of Coil to experience it.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And get good gear handed to them, basically. You forgot that part :p

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I don't remember having good gear handed to me in LotRO. The best gear was crafted guild recipes that were on 5 day timers. The dungeon version was on dailies open world events similar to FATE content here. I don't remember what they called it but I can still see it in chat. "So and so is up" Everyone would run and do it. You needed it about the same as WP here for tokens.

Difference was, people didn't need to queue for leveling content. Kinda like here.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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Classic strawman argument, non-bro. You bring up a completely irrelevant comparison (other failed MMOs) as an attempt to prove that my position is wrong.

What Xatsh is saying is that he thinks casual players should just get better and that somehow will remedy their inability to get through Coil and future harder content. That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard in the longest of time. The majority of the playerbase will always be "casual" in reaching endgame, and there will always only be a small percentage of the playerbase who has successfully gotten through some or all of the endgame raid(s). So obviously it makes sense that when they introduce harder raids, they will make the previous endgame ones easier so that more players can reach these harder raids. Every MMO does this, and that's been reiterated repeatedly in this thread.

I'd like to think Square Enix knows how to design MMOs far better than you and Xatsh ever could.

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Originally Posted by Lukahn

Us old timers come from a time when picking up a game was like a little project. You could work on it a while, learn about it and practice, and you'd get further. It was a game. I'm including lore heavy experiences as well. Even games in this very series. I LOVE becoming immersed in lore and gameworlds, but I also like to play the game, as well. Final Fantasy isn't a particularly demanding MMO either, and to many of us it seems like SE bends over backwards to make everything very attainable to everyone, casual players included. I believe they have accomplished this. I haven't completed Coil, and as of now I have that to work towards. If they added an easy mode I could just run coil in a day and have nothing to work towards. Then what? That would be removing a massive goal in a game where goals are needed to keep people playing.

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You'll have from turn 6 to 9 I believe to complete "hardcore" (read as challenging) content.

This is an MMORPG, and sadly, these games evolve over time, and they need a decent pace. If you cannot keep up with it and are always falling behind on content then it is something up to you.

If they were to leave the gearing process as it is and just add content without any catch-up gear system, then well... Everyone who is new or far behind, will be behind forever (exaggerating, but a very long time, a decent long time on the best cases where they can just force themselves into doing hard content with the minimum gear required, because they have the skill and capabilities).

You'll find there are single player games that might fit your playstyle better too, or somewhere where you can advance at your own pace. At this rate, if it continues as it looked like from your post, unless they nerf it you'll be behind for a long time, unless they take forever to release content, but we have already seen enough forum threads about not enough end game content haven't we? Hardcore players will always finish the new end-game content first, and fast. =/ It's unavodable because that is their goal, unless you ofc add silly holdbacks.

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Originally Posted by Bufkus

Classic strawman argument

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So in other words, your "fact" was indeed wrong? Understood.

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I'd like to think Square Enix knows how to design MMOs far better than you and Xatsh ever could.

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But your whole argument boiled down to: Difficult Content = Kills off playerbases.

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Every MMO does this

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And many of the MMOs have failed, even when they do this - so 'strawman' wasn't there. I'm just saying, MMOs fail regardless of what Xatsh said happening or not, if anything you shrugging that fact off kind of means you don't want to see that Xatsh wasn't actually incorrect - If an MMO is destined to fail and lose players it will on its own accord.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

But your whole argument boiled down to: Difficult Content = Kills off playerbases.

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You do offer insight in to a real problem with MMO content.

Forced hard content - hard=takes longer, nothing more - will not be done by casual players.
On the other hand, offer an easier version and even the so called hard core people never do the hard version. And that's a proven fact.

The biggest problem is, the games aren't about experience. It's here, it's every game. The want you to farm it. You can't tell me people running coil are doing it for the 'experience' when they are in run 30. They might as well be out gathering Electrum ore. It's the same thing in effect.

Does it really matter anymore to debate and argue over this issue? a mod already came in and said what they have planned with 1-5 coil for those that want an easier time with the dungeon by adding a buff...case closed...let's move on.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

If they were to leave the gearing process as it is and just add content without any catch-up gear system, then well... Everyone who is new or far behind, will be behind forever (exaggerating, but a very long time, a decent long time on the best cases where they can just force themselves into doing hard content with the minimum gear required, because they have the skill and capabilities)
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SE addresses this. Higher myth caps, nerfs to older dungeons ( I believe they are already doing this with AK,) and duty roulette to keep traffic in older dungeons really help in keeping people from getting too far behind. That being said, it seems that you are implying that people playing at their own pace and not on the cutting edge of new content is a bad thing. Remember, I haven't completed coil either!

What is the big deal here? Has everyone forgot what the the "Echo" buff is? and how it works?


when 2.2 comes out and more turns of coil are released, when you enter turns 1-5 its the exact same fight as it is now. The buff activates after X number of wipes, adding HP and DMG and def to the members of the group, making it easier. keep failing get more stacks and larger buffs till you can finish the content. Dont want the buff but still wiping? well, exit and re-enter and the buff will be gone, or they may add an option to remove it. Thus they have not destroyed the current content, but as it is "old" and not top tier rewards anymore it is made more available to the hole playerbase.

The "echo" buff has been in game since Open Beta for story quests (most people have never encountered it), but go play on a new char and do some story quests and die a few times and see the buff. All they are doing is adding this same buffing mechanic to "old" content to make it killable by people who are not able to now after they fail some, making it easier each few tries until they are buffed enough to kill it. Now will people abuse this and wipe 10 times for a big buff then actually attempt to kill it? some will, but it still allows many to do it in its original difficulty, something that many MMO's screw up for new players because they actually nerfed the content.

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Originally Posted by Lukahn

SE addresses this. Higher myth caps, nerfs to older dungeons ( I believe they are already doing this with AK,) and duty roulette to keep traffic in older dungeons really help in keeping people from getting too far behind. That being said, it seems that you are implying that people playing at their own pace and not on the cutting edge of new content is a bad thing. Remember, I haven't completed coil either!

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Nah sorry if it came off that way, It's is completely find and right if that's what you want. All I'm saying is that well, you might be behind cause you're catching up on leveling and other stuff, but when new content comes out (have in mind coil will not be nerfed before 2.2, i am positive about this, even though SE haven't said anything it would be the more reasonable thing, to nerf it either wtith 2.2 and new coil turns, or soon after) you will be further behind, it really depends on you though, wether you havent done it because you just haven't gottena round to it, or because you find it hard.

I was really making a generalization, sorry. ^^ I'm quite positive that if you don't find it hard nor shrug away from it, you will complete it before the nerf anyway XD And gear from 2.1 plus the more AF+1 you get the easier it becomes XD So in a way it is gradually nerfed anyway.

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Originally Posted by KogaDrake

"Echo" buff

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i was about to mention this...

i hope they use this method, let higher tier raiders still be able to do it without nerfing the content into the ground and let more casual players that aren't into the difficulty wipe a few times to get a massive boost.

I like the system of modes
-normal mode- no reward (poor reward)
- hard mode- good reward (rare loot)

I dont like the system "after some wipes game will offer to you to nerf the dungeon or the boss"

I dont like the policy of nerfing previous hard core content when appears new hard core content

Ugh i really hate this, not only are you devaluing the times when we had to work together to beat coil through teamwork and got great gear as a reward, you are also doing it when it makes sense not to, to get to coil you must go through HM titan, meaning unless you are skilled you are screwed anyway (unless you pay to get carried like a bitch) and T1-3 is EASIER than titan HM, this means that the people complaining about coil cannot have been to coil yet at all or they got carried because titan is a brick wall you NEED to destroy to get to it, this also means you will be taking away challenge from a good and challenging dungeon just because a few players who are not even at coil yet have heard that it is hard.

Not only this but pandering to people who cannot learn to play a game never helps that much, it just hurts your long term player base, what you think casual players are going to stick around for that long? lol no, they will be gone soon, the players that stay will be the ones who love to challenge more and more and no im not talking about end game rushers, this game is easy enough as it is if you dumb the game down even more a large majority will never feel challenged i cant remember dying once to any story mode boss ever.

before you scream "hardcore gamer lol" im not a hardcore gamer, nor am i a casual, i prefer taking games slowly(been playing since beta and yet my character only has 1 lvl 50) and learning about the lore, hell before i was became more skilled at the game and bothered to try to learn it i was stuck on garuda (HM) for 2 WEEKS however i also like to be challenged and overcome those challenges, titan HM and coil so far (garuda counts too but only because i wasn't trying to learn to play before) are the only things i have enjoyed beating because they challenged me, they made me adapt and learn and i loved it.