SCH needs help

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Originally Posted by Whichi

its not better. it costs you too much damage to be good sorry i just disagree. its simply "okay" and will stay in the same spot its been in since STOrmblood its rarely used because its not good in most situations theres just always a better option.

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ShB's SS replaced SB's Indom as SCH's go-to Aetherflow AoE heal.

Stormblood: 500p Indom, 10% SS
Shadowbringers: 400p Indom, 10% + 600p (HoT total) SS

Does SCH has better tools available? Yes: Whispering Dawn, Recitation + Indom, Seraph, Fey Blessing.
But SS has a much lower cooldown than most of these, and mitigates as well.

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Originally Posted by Whichi

https://puu.sh/Fi2nA/39e2ecd212.png

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

he healing in the ultimate fight sch is outclassed by BOTH other healers btw they're also outclassed in damage in the highest scenarios (except aoe they outdo astro on aoe damage) already so chadding as sch is not good healing alot is also not good. (as if they can heal alot anyway lol)

The ultimate fight is MORE than good enough for Data regarding the healers and sch is under performing hard.

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Scholar is played 3x more than Astrologian in the data you're using and 1.5x as much as white mage? It's almost taken as much as the other two combined, meaning that a Scholar was present in almost every one of these reports.

I don't really understand how this is underperforming, personally.

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Originally Posted by Whichi

Well the problem with half the cd being that that would cost you 300 potency vs astros completley free collective. or even asylum which has a small weaving cost it still does way more i'd argue since it buffs healing actions like indom AND is a heal overtime on a relatively short CD. Soil is strong sure but i'd still argue its the worst of the three healers simply because it costs SO MUCH when the other two healers get one for FREE (or near free)

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Managing AF stack for both DPSing via ED and Healing via ogcd are SCH identity since AAR.
From what I see, you want a zero DPS loss when using ogcd healing.
Imagine SE change how SCH ogcd heal work from costing 1 AF into 0 AF with longer CD.
If this situation happen, I believe people will be mad like what SE did to AST time manipulation skill.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Managing AF stack for both DPSing via ED and Healing via ogcd are SCH identity since AAR.
From what I see, you want a zero DPS loss when using ogcd healing.
Imagine SE change how SCH ogcd heal work from costing 1 AF into 0 AF with longer CD.
If this situation happen, I believe people will be mad like what SE did to AST time manipulation skill.

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I just want scholar to Excel at ANYTHING. Scholar is the worst dps and the worst healing. They don't even excel at Aoe despite having the strongest gcd aoe because WHM has misery and assize.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

If Ast holds CU for a single gcd then ED loss cost from sacred soil is peanuts compared to the 250 potency loss Ast just suffered.

It is only free if not channelled and when not channelled both versions are weaker than Sacred soil by a good amount (100 less potency HoT + 12s less 10%dmg mitigation for Diurnal, 500 less potency HoT + 5s more 10% dmg mitigation for nocturnal) to make up for no cost.

That is why I say Sacred Soil is better the cost is appropriate for how powerful it is and the fact it could be up for 50% of a fight(should never ever do this just like a fully channelled CU) also speaks volumes.

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You will never hold collective ever lol it's so bad to hold. you one tick it during an OFF global and never hold it.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I'll just stop arguing with you.
You don't understand what you're talking about.

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:) Hope your day goes well

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Originally Posted by Whichi

I just want scholar to Excel at ANYTHING. Scholar is the worst dps and the worst healing. They don't even excel at Aoe despite having the strongest gcd aoe because WHM has misery and assize.

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SCH's strength isnt its raw output. Its its ability to synergize with and create openings with its cohealer. Yes. SCH has dps costs to alot of its ogcd kit, but it also has more frequent access to it then AST and WHM does. Its lower output is compensated for by the fact that by using its kit it saves its cohealer gcds. So whatever dps loss the sch is receiving by spending energy drains can be compensated for by the fact its allowing their cohealer to do more gcd damage.

SCH excels at opening flexibility in its cohealer, and too a lesser extent, inflating HP pools and mitigating damage.

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Originally Posted by Whichi

You will never hold collective ever lol it's so bad to hold. you one tick it during an OFF global and never hold it.

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We have made this point. It's the fact you never hold it that makes it weaker then Sacred Soil. When you do not hold it it becomes weaker then Soil because you loose one of the effects after 3 seconds while the other persists. Sacred Soil does BOTH effects at half the cooldown. And as I've repeated time and again the dps loss of not using energy Drain is mitigated not only by the additional healing potency you're saving for later with the fae gauge, but by the fact you're theoretically reducing the gcd healing your cohealer has to do, which gives back more potency then you lose.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Managing AF stack for both DPSing via ED and Healing via ogcd are SCH identity since AAR.
From what I see, you want a zero DPS loss when using ogcd healing.
Imagine SE change how SCH ogcd heal work from costing 1 AF into 0 AF with longer CD.
If this situation happen, I believe people will be mad like what SE did to AST time manipulation skill.

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Reducing the DPS opportunity cost of all AF heals to zero did happen: 5.0, Shadowbringers' launch.
Without Energy Drain, all AF could be used for was for healing, and SCH had heaps of zero-DPS-cost healing, easily beating both WHM and AST.

It was also the most boring playstyle ever made in this game.
In my opinion, even with ED back SCH has one of the most boring playstyles in the game. I honestly don't care right now if SCH's healing or DPS tools are weaker/stronger than AST/WHM. Its just a complete bore to play.

And you can clearly see that SCH's AF was an afterthought for SE because not only was ED not there on launch, but it came back as an outright copy-paste of the SB version, completely at odds with the new AF mechanics they made for SMN.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

We have made this point. It's the fact you never hold it that makes it weaker then Sacred Soil. When you do not hold it it becomes weaker then Soil because you loose one of the effects after 3 seconds while the other persists. Sacred Soil does BOTH effects at half the cooldown. And as I've repeated time and again the dps loss of not using energy Drain is mitigated not only by the additional healing potency you're saving for later with the fae gauge, but by the fact you're theoretically reducing the gcd healing your cohealer has to do, which gives back more potency then you lose.

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Stronger/weaker in terms of healing potency only (and stronger only in 2 very specific scenarios).
You'd get Fae Gauge anyway if you used ED instead, so that is irrelevant.

To make things clear, when mitigating one hit (most common):
Sacred Soil: 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 150p DPS cost
Collective Unconscious (Diurnal): 10% Mitigation + 500p Healing, 0 DPS cost

The two scenarios where SS is stronger (healing-wise) than CU:
- Mitigating multiple hits (E4S Tumult, LL Splash).
- Using SS after the hit for one extra HoT tick (600p total healing).

As I've repeated time and time again, SS' opportunity cost makes it worse than CU in most cases.
Unless you're running Noct AST. In which case your cohealer is WHM or an AST, and SS isn't in the picture.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Reducing the DPS opportunity cost of all AF heals to zero did happen: 5.0, Shadowbringers' launch.
Without Energy Drain, all AF could be used for was for healing, and SCH had heaps of zero-DPS-cost healing, easily beating both WHM and AST.

It was also the most boring playstyle ever made in this game.
In my opinion, even with ED back SCH has one of the most boring playstyles in the game. I honestly don't care right now if SCH's healing or DPS tools are weaker/stronger than AST/WHM. Its just a complete bore to play.

And you can clearly see that SCH's AF was an afterthought for SE because not only was ED not there on launch, but it came back as an outright copy-paste of the SB version, completely at odds with the new AF mechanics they made for SMN.

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I personally feel like the AF mechanics are an afterthought on ACN/SMN then they are on SCH tbh. While I will agree that making AF a dps cooldown that you have to use to access your healing toolkit would be an interesting design choice. Aetherflow on ACN/SMN feels utterly disconnected from the systems of commanding your pet and alternating between Demi summons and Trances. At least with SCH it is a core component of your healing/dps/mana management.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I personally feel like the AF mechanics are an afterthought on ACN/SMN then they are on SCH tbh. While I will agree that making AF a dps cooldown that you have to use to access your healing toolkit would be an interesting design choice. Aetherflow on ACN/SMN feels utterly disconnected from the systems of commanding your pet and alternating between Demi summons and Trances. At least with SCH it is a core component of your healing/dps/mana management.

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AF was for sure a core component of SCH healing back in SB, but as I've mentioned in that other thread that took several hits in ShB (Seraph, Fey Blessing, Recitation). The important part that tied (and still ties) everything together was ED. Otherwise AF tools had no cost, and were basically WHM Lilies with a different charge mechanism and no Misery payoff.

As for SMN I have to admit I've never played the job. To me it seemed like AF was the starting point of the whole summoning loop: use AF abilities and trances to unlock Bahamut and then Phoenix. In that light making ED give AF makes perfect sense.

I personally believe making AF a DPS CD to unlock your healing abilities would be a bad idea, but we are in agreement that AF healing/DPS management should absolutely be a key part of the core SCH loop. New AF-based DoTs would be really nice, for instance.