The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

They don't "need" to do anything else if they are fulfilling their obligation as a healer. You can not like it all you want but Yoshi confirmed this already, so it can't be considered carrying if they don't want to DPS as well as heal.

It's completely unfair to force Healers do manage double the hotbars DPS use to do half of the damage they do. I do it, but no one should "have" to do that outside of a raid enviroment, where Healer DPS is taken into consideration when making the raid.

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Strongly disagree. Yoshi said fights are not designed with it in mind, but they can be cleared faster/easier with it. So obviously the good players are going to go the extra mile for their team and we should encourage that and not dissuade people from it.

Again "role" is only a tool used to help the queue compose parties with a toolkit varied enough to clear the instance successfully. The instance objectives are the same party-wide and if you're not contributing to them when you could be you are not as good a player as you could be. Any limitations you have regarding your perceived "role" are self-imposed and arbitrary. The game does not impose them on you.

ETA: You're a little backwards on your facts. Yoshi actually said that even savage raids were designed WITHOUT healer DPS in mind, and that they were intended to be cleared without it. However, any team that's good enough to be attempting savage is expecting their healers to be good enough to help their DPS meet the checks so they can clear it sooner/faster.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Man this argument again. There is no content outside of bleeding edge raid content that is designed around a requirement for a healer to DPS

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There is no content outside bleeding edge raid content that is even designed around a requirement for the second DPS player to DPS. That doesn't mean that it's ok for them not to. Are we all going to play at the absolute minimum skill level needed to clear content now?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Man this argument again. There is no content outside of bleeding edge raid content that is designed around a requirement for a healer to DPS. Healer DPS is based entirely on the comfort level of the person playing the healer. If they are keeping the party healed, they are doing their job. If their comfort level is such that they feel they can add some DPS, then that is entirely their choice. The problem is that people got used to something in raids and are trying to force that idea into normal groups. It's not necessary or wanted there. If people who raid want to have those requirements in their groups, that is what Party Finder is for.

I'm going to start calling DPS and tanks lazy when they don't use their self-heals or put their own Protect and Stoneskin on the next time this comes up. They have the ability to buff and heal themselves through cross class skills. I'm too busy DPSing to carry their lazy behinds.

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This is all kinds of wrong. I'll point out bit by bit.

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It's not necessary or wanted there

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Wrong, it is wanted. Hence the 60 page thread on the subject.

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There is no content outside of bleeding edge raid content

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Actually Yoshi has said that raiding is not designed with healer DPS in mind, but people are completing it below the intended gear level by using healer DPS.

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The problem is that people got used to something in raids and are trying to force that idea into normal groups.

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Did you not see DPS on healers prior to raids? Personally, I have been DPSing since level 1 with my WHM/CNJ.

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If people who raid want to have those requirements in their groups, that is what Party Finder is for.

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It's like you forgot that we have roulettes

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I'm going to start calling DPS and tanks lazy when they don't use their self-heals or put their own Protect and Stoneskin on the next time this comes up.

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So your argument against DPS healers is that other players should play at the most suboptimal level possible? I mean, actually, a PLD throwing up stoneskin on themselves during downtime is not a bad thing, but other than that, this just hinders the party in so many ways and slows the run down even more. It's like you have 0 idea what people are actually arguing for.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Man this argument again. There is no content outside of bleeding edge raid content that is designed around a requirement for a healer to DPS. Healer DPS is based entirely on the comfort level of the person playing the healer. etc

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Firstly, we are talking about choosing not to DPS when you safely could. If someone says "Hey, why aren't you DPSing, healer?" And they respond with "I'm really trying hard to keep the tank up and I'm not comfortable with it," only the douchiest of douches will harrass/attempt to kick them. And I will never defend that. We all had to learn at some point.

The beef is with people saying that it's okay to choose to not use your whole toolkit to clear the objective when you safely could. That is lazy, and you're right it doesn't matter what role it is. They're not trying as hard as they could on purpose.

As I've said in other posts in this thread: if this is someone's mentality in DF then as opposed to make a stink about it I will actively choose to pick up the slack. They're randoms and you can't expect them to have the same playstyle. It's an entirely different situation when someone comes to the official forums and spreads misinformation about this being the standard practice and all those other guys are meanies.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

No one needs to do anything. I don't need to be respectful when I am playing with an idiot, even though I do try to be. It's completely unfair for me to be playing with people who are not giving it their all when I am. They are reaping the same benefits as me, but putting in half the effort - that isn't fair.

I mean the obligation of a DPS is that the enemy dies right? So, if I stand still and do nothing, and the other DPS kills it - it is dead. My obligation has been filled. Is that OK? Just trying to see where your stance is on everything and where you draw the lines on how useless someone can be while also fulfilling their role.

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You can kick a BLM spamming Scathe and not fear any consequence for it, but not a Healer who doesn't DPS, and we both already know the reason why, so I don't know why you brought this up.

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Originally Posted by Odett

I'm using your line of reasoning and applying it to other jobs (in this case, tanks spamming their agro combo and ignoring all their other combos) to show you how ridiculous your comment sounded. Mediocrity should not be encouraged.

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A tank doing 123 the entire dungeon isn't going to keep Aggro, and will most likely go oomph, hindering their ability to keep Aggro. Besides tanks ability to keep Aggro is incorporated into dealing damage, the more damage you do, the more Emnity being generated.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Strongly disagree. Yoshi said fights are not designed with it in mind, but they can be cleared faster/easier with it. So obviously the good players are going to go the extra mile for their team and we should encourage that and not dissuade people from it.

Again "role" is only a tool used to help the queue compose parties with a toolkit varied enough to clear the instance successfully. The instance objectives are the same party-wide and if you're not contributing to them when you could be you are not as good a player as you could be. Any limitations you have regarding your perceived "role" are self-imposed and arbitrary. The game does not impose them on you.

ETA: You're a little backwards on your facts. Yoshi actually said that even savage raids were designed WITHOUT healer DPS in mind, and that they were intended to be cleared without it. However, any team that's good enough to be attempting savage is expecting their healers to be good enough to help their DPS meet the checks so they can clear it sooner/faster.

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Yoshi said all of that? I could have sworn it was just "fights are not designed with it in mind". Keep in mind this is the same Yoshi who put his foot down and nerfed the 3.1 dungeons because he didn't want it to be like a 4 man raid.

I refuse to step one foot in Alex Savage, because I find it to tedious for my time(and also I'm not paying for Teamspeak on my phone) so that automatically makes me inferior to someone who does raid. I'm not using mind pot Cleric Stance rotation a soon as a Ninja uses trick attack on a dungeon boss, and I'm ok with that because extra perks like that arent needed to clear the dungeon, despite not being optimal.

I feel the same way about healers not DPSing. Honestly clearing the dungeon 2-3 minutes faster isn't mandatory we have 90 minutes in there to clear.

My argument is that if someone is fulfilling their role as needed in the game, then extra actions they take on are personal choice and it's unreasonable to try to make it a requirement or insult them if they do not feel comfortable taking on those actions. There's also the double standard that a healer is required to fulfill other roles, but tank and dps are not required to fulfill other roles. Yes, healer dps makes a run faster. Yes, it is nice when it's something a healer feels comfortable doing. No, I'm not going to call them lazy or accuse them of being carried if they are not comfortable taking on those actions. That creates a toxic community and does nothing to foster party goodwill.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

You can kick a BLM spamming Scathe and not fear any consequence for it, but not a Healer who doesn't DPS, and we both already know the reason why, so I don't know why you brought this up.

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Of course you can.

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Originally Posted by Odett

There is no content outside bleeding edge raid content that is even designed around a requirement for the second DPS player to DPS. That doesn't mean that it's ok for them not to. Are we all going to play at the absolute minimum skill level needed to clear content now?

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I'm uncomfortable to do anything except spam bootshine. I mean I can clear anything not end game just spamming this one button. As long as things are dying, I'm doing my job right? ~.~

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

My argument is that if someone is fulfilling their role as needed in the game, then extra actions they take on are personal choice and it's unreasonable to try to make it a requirement or insult them if they do not feel comfortable taking on those actions.

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Again, I will never insult, harass or kick someone who is not playing the way I think they should be playing. Unless they are literally making it impossible to clear the instance I probably will just pick up the slack myself. I say this a healer main. I encourage everyone to have that mentality.

That said, AGAIN I say that the "role" is only assigned so the queue can optimize the party. After the party is composed, the objectives are the same for everyone. If you're not pushing your team toward completing the objective when you could be, I don't care what your "role" is, you're not playing as well as you could be on purpose. If a ninja refuses to screen DPS in order to help the tank when he could because it's "not his job" to manage hate, then he's not playing as well as he could be. If the bard refuses to sing to support the tank or healer when he could be because it's "not her job to manage your TP/MP", then they're not as good as they can be either and they're doing it to themselves and their teammates on purpose. I fail to see how this is okay.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Wat

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What you people always ignore for some reason is that nobody is forcing healers to dps when they are not comfortable doing so. We are asking healers who stand around doing nothing because not much healing is needed to add to the group effort. Same for tanks. They SHOULD always try to squeeze out as much dps as they can while holding aggro and using cds appripriately. And guess what...dps CAN'T fulfill the healing or tanking role, if you haven't noticed yet.

I'm doing my job as a dps by auto-attacking right? Guess I should stop pressing buttons.

What creates a toxic community is promoting bad play.