#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Before there were jobs in 1.0, Conjurer was the elemental caster. It had every element to cast. Thaumaturge had debuffs and light/dark themed spells. Conjurer wasn't a "healer" then. When they introduced jobs, they repurposed THM and CNJ to be the base classes for BLM and WHM and that's when they started having role and element identities. ARR had some remnants left over from 1.0, especially with cross-class abilities, that have been trimmed away over time. Throughout they expansions, it's just become more focused. I wouldn't say that in 2.0 White Mage had more useful DPS skills, even if it had more of them. They were just kind of there.

I'm not making an argument that healers shouldn't have more DPS abilities, because I would like it if they did. I'm just not sure that ARR (and/or earlier interations) is a good example.

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Oh, I'm not saying the class was necessarily designed well, by any means. ARR was quite a mess for a lot of reasons. A glorious mess. But a mess all the same. I'm simply pointing out that even that mess had more engaging gameplay than we've had for several expansions now.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Do you even play FF XIV? First of all, there's content in the game that's borderline unclearable without that "gravy on top" (go and tell me how your 0 dps healer TOP clear goes).

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The developers are on record multiple times that the fights are not designed for ANY DPS to come from the healer. If you want to clear that raid at minimum ilevel, you can still do it.

Some players just have no patience and are goblins about "looking busy" even when they're the one being carried. It is far more likely that the tank or the healer DPS "helps a teeny-tiny bit" when the DPS keep eating dirt. If the DPS keeps eating dirt that is a net DPS loss. If those DPS want to whine about healers not DPS'ing I better see them not taking a single bit of avoidable damage.

It is factually incorrect to claim that content is unclearable without the healer DPS'ing. If people really gave a care about their DPS, every single DPS would be a black mage since they have the highest DPS output. No ranged DPS at all. That DPS gap between having 1 DNC/MCH/BRD vs one BLM is bigger than the Healer DPS'ing at all.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers are on record multiple times that the fights are not designed for ANY DPS to come from the healer. If you want to clear that raid at minimum ilevel, you can still do it.
(...)
If people really gave a care about their DPS, every single DPS would be a black mage since they have the highest DPS output. No ranged DPS at all. That DPS gap between having 1 DNC/MCH/BRD vs one BLM is bigger than the Healer DPS'ing at all.

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I'm certain that TOP is unclearable if both of your healers do 0 damage.
Dungeon gear and relics might have made it possible to do this in Dragonsong p7, but it still probably requires the absolute best dps/tanks players and some lucky opener rng.
Multiple EW fights are also unclearable week 1 without healer dps (you absolutely were not clearing 8S door boss week 1 with 0 dps healers and I'm fairly confident this also applies for 12S).

I'd like a citation on that developer statement but, even if they did say that, that's simply not true in our current FF XIV- I just gave you a few examples where fights cannot be cleared with 0 healer dps.
Also, your later comment is also just wrong- you're ignoring the multiplicative nature of raid buffs, the 1% bonus per each of the subroles present, each job's burst phase... in fact, the fastest recorded kills of 12S for EW have no BLM in the party. In a 2 min burst meta, raid buffs almost always wins (though BLM is competitive as a one-of... but 4 BLMs would never even work in any difficult content). Incidentally, that also doesn't work for TOP because you need a range lb in p6. You just die to the meteors.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Wiki says Thunder pre 2.1, Blizzard 2, Ruin, and even Mercy Stroke for some reason. On top of like every DPS cooldown.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Additional_action

So, yeah. There we have it. Amazing job design we have now, so that the literal training wheels version of White Mage had a more meaningful DPS toolkit.

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Thunder was interesting because it was a dps gain and had a different duration- so healers could be juggling three different timers on their dots. Honestly, I can see why they removed Thunder, but it was fun nonetheless!
(Thought I had posted this before, guess I need to go sleep)

Edit: fwiw, there is content where healer damage isn't required. There's also content where healer healing isn't required too! That's why blanket statements like "healer damage isn't needed" or, the more extreme but equally silly "healer healing isn't needed" are not correct and, frankly, don't help the discussion. Healers need their healing to be more meaningful, more engaging and could also do with a more interesting and expressive dps rotation. I'm not advocating solely for more dps tools, I just think that's the easiest thing to start with. I definitely would like XIV to move away from its encounter design and allow for reactive healing in its content.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers are on record multiple times that the fights are not designed for ANY DPS to come from the healer. If you want to clear that raid at minimum ilevel, you can still do it.

Some players just have no patience and are goblins about "looking busy" even when they're the one being carried. It is far more likely that the tank or the healer DPS "helps a teeny-tiny bit" when the DPS keep eating dirt. If the DPS keeps eating dirt that is a net DPS loss. If those DPS want to whine about healers not DPS'ing I better see them not taking a single bit of avoidable damage.

It is factually incorrect to claim that content is unclearable without the healer DPS'ing. If people really gave a care about their DPS, every single DPS would be a black mage since they have the highest DPS output. No ranged DPS at all. That DPS gap between having 1 DNC/MCH/BRD vs one BLM is bigger than the Healer DPS'ing at all.

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Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! What are you on? please share.

Where did they say the healers are not meant to DPS, please link?

If the healer doesn't DPS you will NEVER go past enrage at min ilvl. The amount of damage healers do is actually not that bad. They are not doing the same amount of damage as a BLM or Sam would, but healer damage is important as well.

Just because you can be a heal bot in a trash dungeon, doesn't mean it's valid for everything available in the game.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It is factually incorrect to claim that content is unclearable without the healer DPS'ing. If people really gave a care about their DPS, every single DPS would be a black mage since they have the highest DPS output. No ranged DPS at all. That DPS gap between having 1 DNC/MCH/BRD vs one BLM is bigger than the Healer DPS'ing at all.

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This is simply not true and a cursory glance at literally any of the many resources and datapoints we have on the matter would show you that this is not true. The difference between a physranged and a BLM is not 'bigger than the healer DPS'ing', because a Healer DPS'ing is going to deal anywhere from 6k to something like 7.8k damage (with current BIS). There's not a 6k damage difference between a DNC and a BLM unless you are looking at 'ADPS' and not factoring in the fact that DNC has buffs that it contributes to the team, but even then, the median for ADPS for DNC (current savage) is 10.9k, and BLM 14.6k. So, about 50% of what ONE Healer contributes, now factor in that there's two Healers in the party for this kind of content

Yoshi-P's been shown to be incorrect in his assertions in interviews numerous times, when it comes to Healers. For example, he has said at one point in SB that 'SCH was leaving WHM to do all the healing', and data showed that not only was SCH giving out equal HPS to WHM in optimized runs, if mitigation was considered as HPS then (as it is now), the SCH in those examples would have been soaring ahead of WHM's HPS, since all the damage Soil blocks would suddenly count for HPS

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Where did they say the healers are not meant to DPS, please link?

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It's something Yoshi-P used to say.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/236992

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's something Yoshi-P used to say.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/236992

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This is a 2015 link... I, too, long for the lost days of ARR and HW, but I think it's fair to say this is a tad outdated.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers are on record multiple times that the fights are not designed for ANY DPS to come from the healer. If you want to clear that raid at minimum ilevel, you can still do it.

Some players just have no patience and are goblins about "looking busy" even when they're the one being carried. It is far more likely that the tank or the healer DPS "helps a teeny-tiny bit" when the DPS keep eating dirt. If the DPS keeps eating dirt that is a net DPS loss. If those DPS want to whine about healers not DPS'ing I better see them not taking a single bit of avoidable damage.

It is factually incorrect to claim that content is unclearable without the healer DPS'ing. If people really gave a care about their DPS, every single DPS would be a black mage since they have the highest DPS output. No ranged DPS at all. That DPS gap between having 1 DNC/MCH/BRD vs one BLM is bigger than the Healer DPS'ing at all.

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This has been proven mathematically impossible multiple times throughout the years since it was stated in HW. It has not aged well at all and has only gotten worse with time. It's a sad joke at this point.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

This is simply not true and a cursory glance at literally any of the many resources and datapoints we have on the matter would show you that this is not true. The difference between a physranged and a BLM is not 'bigger than the healer DPS'ing', because a Healer DPS'ing is going to deal anywhere from 6k to something like 7.8k damage (with current BIS). There's not a 6k damage difference between a DNC and a BLM unless you are looking at 'ADPS' and not factoring in the fact that DNC has buffs that it contributes to the team, but even then, the median for ADPS for DNC (current savage) is 10.9k, and BLM 14.6k. So, about 50% of what ONE Healer contributes, now factor in that there's two Healers in the party for this kind of content

Yoshi-P's been shown to be incorrect in his assertions in interviews numerous times, when it comes to Healers. For example, he has said at one point in SB that 'SCH was leaving WHM to do all the healing', and data showed that not only was SCH giving out equal HPS to WHM in optimized runs, if mitigation was considered as HPS then (as it is now), the SCH in those examples would have been soaring ahead of WHM's HPS, since all the damage Soil blocks would suddenly count for HPS

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Depends if we are talking about ECHO or not. Healers with echo generally do 8.5k-9.5k easily (depends on the fight as well because in p12s and p9s, the boss leaves the arena for Limit Cut).

But you are right, there is no way in hell you go past the enrage with healers doing nothing. 14k-18k damage difference is not something to neglect.

I went and checked the log website for the last Savage boss and checked for the lowest ranked Healer Combined Damage parse. So the run where both healers combined contributed the absolute minimum. That number was 7,286.8 DPS. You would think that, if it was possible to clear with 0 DPS from healers, someone would have done it by now, if for no other reason then for the meme.