Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

I was mistaken on the Cure 3. I've never raided on or have been WHM main. Updated my post, sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

The animation that occurs on the striking dummy when the character uses divine benison is the animation for Aero wearing off. It occurs twice because they used Aero 3 and Aero 2 in the video.

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Thanks for clarifying that for me, I'll admit I never really paid attention to the animation when the dots wear off. The effects aligned so well with the cure spells, oh well here goes my wishful thinking. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

It is only limiting to those that will refuse to use the lily building skills. Furthermore you get to choose at which level you burn the lilies, one up to three. And people will be and already are burning assize on cooldown so it will make assize that much stronger through even more use. That's not even considering the other abilities that can utilize the lilies. Lily is actually quite easy to coordinate. The fact is people just can't stand the though they will have to cast a cure. Never mind they have no clue what kind of healing demands will be present.

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I repeatedly edited my post, so sorry if you caught it early after I initially posted it.

Anyway, you could arguably use it to spam Assize as much as possible, but building Lilies would still require you avoid using all of your other oGCD skills unless you're spamming Cure consistently between them. If skills used up one Lily it might be more manageable, but as it is right now all Lilies disappear the moment you use anything, and Lilies 1-2 give negligible (4-10%) CD reductions so that you may not even get to use the skill one more time than usual in an entire fight. If the entire mechanic in a fight results in one extra Assize, is it really a good/worthwhile system?

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

If the entire mechanic in a fight results in one extra Assize, is it really a good/worthwhile system?

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If you recall I specially pointed out that it was a look at the two effects, not a judgement on if I thought the system was worthwhile. But since you asked, with how it was based on the San Fran media tour I didn't like it , but could see potential with some changes. Now we know some whm changes have occurred just not what they all are so I'm reserving judgment.

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Originally Posted by Medeah

While it is a baseless speculation on my end, I think the job trailer released two weeks ago holds more information on the final version of WHM.

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That video was just depressing to watch again.

I think it's something like:

• Largesse
• Cure 2
• Aero 3
• Aero 2
• Stone 4
• Plenary Indulgence
• Thin Air
• Cure 2
• Cure 3
• Divine Benison
• Rescue

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Why is it not "WHM's thing", when WHM has traditionally had a plethora of party utility? Be they offensive (Haste, Bravery, Faith, En-spells), defensive (Reflect, Shell, Protect, Blink, Nul-spells), or general support (Libra, Reraise)?

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I think they might have forgotten what Final Fantasy is again, because they've been naming our stuff like we're the freakin pope ever since Tetragrammaton.

Just leaving more feedback..

As others have pointed out, an increased proc rate from Cure II on lilies is nice, but ultimately does not address the disparity between WHM and AST/SCH.

My preference would be that WHM gets a comparable ability to Spread Arrow / Spread Balance / Change Stragem. Why doesn't WHM have Haste? or Reflect (to a limit)? Both AST and SCH bring so much utility and party wide damage support that if SE wants to stick a pure healer role and refrain from giving WHM any utility whatsoever, they really need to buff WHM healing output so that it is undeniably superior to AST/SCH.

If WHM is really going to be relegated to a pure healing role, what about:

Lilies build on cure, cure II, regen, medica, medica II at various proc rates (lower on HoTs). Lilies provide an innate spell speed increase while they are active. WHM can expend ONE lily for Divine Benison. Lilies DO NOT go away on Assize, Asylum, or Tetra. Those oGCD heals are already on short cooldowns, we don't need to make them shorter through RNG. Giving WHM a spellspeed increase AND better / more frequent shields would make the "pure healer" WHM a step above the competitors, but still lack party utility. One small 15% shield that uses all lilies is an awful ability, and 10% stoneskin would likely be better.

As for confession stacks and plenary indulgence, the timer needs to be at least 1 minute if the objective is to be able to heal, say, two tanks during an add phase.

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

As for confession stacks and plenary indulgence, the timer needs to be at least 1 minute if the objective is to be able to heal, say, two tanks during an add phase.

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It can already, timer resets every time they get a stack, so theoretically you can have up to 90 seconds to build stacks before using plenary indulgence. And that's not to say you can't refresh it again once it's at 3 stacks.

Why would they remove stoneskin? There are so many situations during downtime that you can cast stoneskin to save someone with rez sickness. Pre SB content, how are WHMs going to save people with rez sickness from dying to Ultimates? What if there were only 2 whm in the group?

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

As for confession stacks and plenary indulgence, the timer needs to be at least 1 minute if the objective is to be able to heal, say, two tanks during an add phase.

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Again, just remove Confession and let PI use lilies instead.

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Originally Posted by dark494

It can already, timer resets every time they get a stack, so theoretically you can have up to 90 seconds to build stacks before using plenary indulgence. And that's not to say you can't refresh it again once it's at 3 stacks.

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True, but I'm suggesting that the confession stacks last at least a minute.. so they could be refreshed up to 3 minutes before using plenary indulgence. I'd even go so far as to say that the confession stacks last indefinitely, until PI is used. Why should WHM need to worry about confession stacks falling off when AST gets a 900 potency AOE heal and Synastry on demand? Let the confession stacks stay on until a time of the WHM's choosing..

The 100% proc rate on Cure 2 is definitely a sigh of relief, but it's an expensive one. I still think the WHM should have passive traits tied to the lilies such as reduced MP cost, increased MP regen, reduced enmity, or if reflect was implemented, it could contribute to the amount of damage that is reflected back while these lilies are active. Perhaps replace Divine Benison with Reflect, or give WHM the choice between the two.

If they want WHMs to cast their cures, they and their teammates need to be rewarded for it. They need to give the WHM power so that he/she has to evaluate if using up a CD is worth the cost of the lilies, but that is just my view of how they should work.

Hopefully how the confession stacks is being reworked as well. As is, I don't see much use of 'Plenary Indulgence'. Whether you are casual or hardcore, you're going to be spending a lot of time in dungeons and 8-man trials. Gating confession stacks with RNG and also adding a timer to the buff work against each other. It's a slot machine right now. In its weakest state, it does absolutely nothing. However at full power, its basically a healer LB2. But the sheer amount of gcds to get there, even best-case. Eek!

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

Just leaving more feedback..

As others have pointed out, an increased proc rate from Cure II on lilies is nice, but ultimately does not address the disparity between WHM and AST/SCH.

My preference would be that WHM gets a comparable ability to Spread Arrow / Spread Balance / Change Stragem. Why doesn't WHM have Haste? or Reflect (to a limit)? Both AST and SCH bring so much utility and party wide damage support.

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Pretty sure AST got a trait for Bene 1/2 that works with an OGCD, SCH got something similar as well, WHM is the only one complaining about it.
So you want something comparable to a 30% range mechanic over 2 CDs but without the RNG and 1 CD, or a CD that is affected by the stat choices of your teammates as to its effectiveness (most current #s test I saw on Chain Stratagem had it increase current attackers crit by a % not a flat number, thus any dps focusing speed, det, direct hit, some combination of those, or balanced would get vastly less out of it than someone cramming crit as much ad possinle. Are you serious about not liking RNG or is this some joke people are playing and I'm just behind on the meme?

well, we can only hope these changes are for the better. In Ultros' NN we're already getting concerned Sprouts and Returners playing WHM freaking. Someone was kicked from a dungeon while they were leveling WHM earlier.

Please SE, this is already getting to the community as a whole, ease the fears at E3, Mentor's can only do so much to console, but some Mentor's have already been kicked as well for going into Dungeons on WHM.

We literally had to pull a 180 and pop out a random topic to distract them, but...this is concerning behavior already.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Pretty sure AST got a trait for Bene 1/2 that works with an OGCD, SCH got something similar as well, WHM is the only one complaining about it.

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Because neither of them rely on it. It's not a central mechanic, it's a mild nice-to-have bonus if it happens. Much like freecure.

lilies is just trash all around. If you really want me to go into the details on why I can, though I imagine most people are tired of hearing about it by now.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Because neither of them rely on it. It's not a central mechanic, it's a mild nice-to-have bonus if it happens. Much like freecure.

lilies is just trash all around. If you really want me to go into the details on why I can, though I imagine most people are tired of hearing about it by now.

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You know what's really bad about this? SCH and AST gets their GCD reduction as a bonus. WHM has an entire mechanic surrounding it that accomplishes the same thing.

It's almost like they've gone out if their way to make WHM the most uninspired and boring healer to play for no reason at all. It didn't have an identity at first. And now it's identity is based around a mechanic that both other healers can do in their spare time. Lmao.

Going to post my utility thoughts for WHM again before I go to work, and hopefully get more feedback:

Dispel - remove basic ally debuffs or enemy buffs. With 1 Lily, enhance Dispel to remove most buffs/debuffs. With 2 Lillies, choose between party debuff removal or all enemy buff removal. With 3 Lillies, target EVERYTHING.
Astra - One ally debuff prevention for a short duration. Thought about this some more and figure no need for this to interact with Lily system.
Shellskin - Cast and function like SCHs Succor, but provide no healing upon cast, instead increasing party magic resistance and mitigating a fixed percent of magical damage while Shellskin lasts.
Reflect - Act as a single ally buff to reflect damage back, starting at 5% for 10sec. With 1 Lily, enhance to also reduce 5% damage taken. With 2 Lillies, double both percentages. With 3 Lillies, double duration.
Finally, the return of Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal for reliable MP refresh, enmity control and power booster.

For me, one big "buff" on White Mage is Presence of Mind can be use on Alied targets.

https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...nd-300x159.png

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Originally Posted by Loyan

For me, one big "buff" on White Mage is Presence of Mind can be use on Alied targets.

https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...nd-300x159.png

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i don't think it can be? I've not seen that tooltip before.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

Why would they remove stoneskin? There are so many situations during downtime that you can cast stoneskin to save someone with rez sickness. Pre SB content, how are WHMs going to save people with rez sickness from dying to Ultimates? What if there were only 2 whm in the group?

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They removed Stoneskin because they wanted to regurgitate it back to us as a new post-60 skill that costs Lilies, evidently.

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Originally Posted by Loyan

For me, one big "buff" on White Mage is Presence of Mind can be use on Alied targets.

https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...nd-300x159.png

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What am I missing? It still shows Range 0y and Radius 0y.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

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AST tentatively received a trait called Hyper Lightspeed, that reduces the recast time of Lightspeed by 5 seconds on a critical Benefic or Benefic II. AST also has a trait to force a critical Benefic II. Everything in the AST toolkit synergizes well with itself. The WHM Lily II trait lowers recast time on Assize and Asylum for some reason on critical heals (not Presence of Mind, the longer recast time). However the WHM Cure trait also procs a FREE MP Cure, not a Critical Cure. There is no synergy.

Now if you're referring to the overall Lily system (Secret of the Lily I), the media tour build is broken, and not in a good way. The OGCD skills (Assize, Asylum, Tetra, and Benison) would be used on average every.. 15~20 seconds? Something like that. All lilies are spent by using ANY of those 4 abilities guaranteed that a WHM would never actually get to 3 lilies and reap the benefit of the exponential cool down reduction by having more lilies.

On the damage / utility side, I'm asking is that WHM get SOMETHING for party utility. Even your Diurnal Sect AST (in mourning) gets a 10% party-wide mitigation ability for some odd reason. I'd also drop royal road AOE ability down to 33 or maybe even 25% potency for balance, but in lieu of that, yes WHM needs to bring something extra to the party (HASTE), or substantially increase its personal damage potential over the other two healers.

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Originally Posted by Loyan

For me, one big "buff" on White Mage is Presence of Mind can be use on Alied targets.

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Range 0 = self only =p It's the same PoM as ever.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

They removed Stoneskin because they wanted to regurgitate it back to us as a new post-60 skill that costs Lilies, evidently.

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"Darn, I can't think of anything else to give WHMs....Hey wait! Didn't they say they wanted their old Stoneskin back? Hahaha, we'll give them their old Stoneskin back alright!"

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Originally Posted by Loyan

For me, one big "buff" on White Mage is Presence of Mind can be use on Alied targets.

https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...nd-300x159.png

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Range 0 = self only =p It's the same PoM as ever.

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Target-able PoM would be amazing though. Make PoM and Thin Air target-able. How's that for utility?

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Originally Posted by Kethic

Target-able PoM would be amazing though. Make PoM and Thin Air target-able. How's that for utility?

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no. i refuse. Thin Air is our only new Toy. i'm not giving that away when i can use it for DPS to kill stuff since all we can do is kill stuff and hope we help kill it before it kills the tank and group.

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

On the damage / utility side, I'm asking is that WHM get SOMETHING for party utility. Even your Diurnal Sect AST (in mourning) gets a 10% party-wide mitigation ability for some odd reason.

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What are you talking about? Bole? Collective Unconscious? Diurnal hasn't changed to get some new mitigation ability that we didn't have already to my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

What are you talking about? Bole? Collective Unconscious? Diurnal hasn't changed to get some new mitigation ability that we didn't have already to my knowledge.

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I was talking about collective unconscious. I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous that Diurnal AST, on top of all the card utility, still gets a party wide 10% damage mitigation tool in Stormblood(that ALSO adds a HoT). It's another point of disparity between the other healers and WHM at this point.

Maybe it made sense when AST had weaker healing ability, but that's just not the case anymore. If all WHM can do is throw out a single 15% shield on one person (if RNG procs a lily when needed), then why should a Diurnal AST get a 10% party-wide mitigation ability now that their healing has been continuously boosted to be on par with WHM?

Collective Unconscious has both a damage reduction and HoT because its effect used to vary on what sect you were in- being in Diurnal gave it a HoT, Nocturnal the damage reduction. This was considered clunky and so they were merged. That's also why CU still has that weird requirement to be in a sect (Why wouldn't you be after all)? So, they used to be separate, but it was not found to be a good ability that way.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

no. i refuse. Thin Air is our only new Toy. i'm not giving that away when i can use it for DPS to kill stuff since all we can do is kill stuff and hope we help kill it before it kills the tank and group.

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You are 100% correct. I am sorry for suggesting it.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

You are 100% correct. I am sorry for suggesting it.

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apology accepted. we have to cling to our new toy that will allow us to Holy spam.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

apology accepted. we have to cling to our new toy that will allow us to Holy spam.

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I would only share if they let me share with the whole class. That would be amazingly broken though.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I would only share if they let me share with the whole class. That would be amazingly broken though.

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i would share with Red Mages. maybe. because it would be useful for that SC-VerRaise-VerCure-VerRaise(rinse repeat for 12s) thing they can do. that's it. just them. because i'm a greedy little WHM that is staring down stormblood and feeling like i'm that one kid in HS, that everyone picks on. (i know Monks felt this way, and DRGs too at one point)

And yes, i'm aware that SCH's are also taking a hit, WAR a bit, but...yeah this is one of those feelings in the pit of one's stomach and all we can do is hope that the actual release is better.

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Originally Posted by Vaelin

No job will EVER be meant to be seen as a simple job compared to the others, so to those who are of that mentality I listed above ; do us all a favour and stop putting White Mage under that false bracket.

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that's your opinion........

Fool or not..... you'd would not be on this forum reading/posting any of this if WHM wasnt second tier to AST/SCH..... so I guess up to this point the designers are fools too...... Either or; I hope your spirited post for the love of the great WHM also hasn't stem from a delusion that the classes have the same learning curve or simplicity of play or provide the same room for error or require the same level of attention to detail....b/c by "foolish design" they aren't the same in capability with JUST varying game-play.

You can't tell us with confidence what is MEANT to be unless you're on the design team or have access to their intention in a way we don't.... What u could tell us is what you currently SEE with your eyes. You see WHM left out of meta, you see skill gaps and steep learning curves among the various jobs.

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Originally Posted by javid

that's your opinion........

Fool or not..... you'd would not be on this forum reading/posting any of this if WHM wasnt second tier to AST/SCH..... so I guess up to this point the designers are fools too...... Either or; I hope your spirited post for the love of the great WHM also hasn't stem from a delusion that the classes have the same learning curve or simplicity of play or provide the same room for error or require the same level of attention to detail....b/c by "foolish design" they aren't the same in capability with JUST varying game-play.

You can't tell us with confidence what is MEANT to be unless you're on the design team or have access to their intention in a way we don't.... What u could tell us is what you currently SEE with your eyes. You see WHM left out of meta, you see skill gaps and steep learning curves among the various jobs.

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You've been making less and less sense since you started posting in this thread.

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Originally Posted by fantasticm

You've been making less and less sense since you started posting in this thread.

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....for a moment troll, u almost roped me in.... lol

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Originally Posted by Quor

I gotta call BS on this one. WHM has had Stoneskin, which is a fancy name for "single target shield based on the targets max HP" since 2.0 dropped. They had Graniteskin, which made the WHM version of SS stronger than the version SCH could slot, and this gave WHM niche; SCH was the "main" shielder, with the potential for more common shields via Succor and Adlo, while WHM was the "conditional" shielder. I remember back in the day, as a WAR tanking Titan Hard pre-IB change. If I had a good WHM/SCH combination with me, I didn't have to fear Mountain Buster. The Graniteskin from a good WHM and a SCH who was on point with Adlo made all the difference. And it felt nice, seeing that kind of coordination give the result that it did.

So, no, I wouldn't say WHM has *never* been the shielder. They weren't the primary shielder, but they sure as hell had a shield that every healer (and PLD too!) slots on their bar 100% of the time at level cap.

And now that's gone. For a mechanic on a much longer cooldown, gated behind a mostly-RNG based system that rewards suboptimal play.

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Stoneskin @ 18% shield, was definitely stronger than adlo (noncrit & no healing buffs) on a tank. It was comparable, however, to adlo when shielding a dps/healer though.

Ever since they reduced it to 10% SE has removed all in game mechs that ABSOLUTELY required two targets receive a shield as potent as Adlo. Nor is there any current mech that REQUIRES both a Stoneskin + Adlo on a single target. Last example of a mech that required double shielding was in T10--if the shield wasn't strong enough for either target, the target would receive a debuff. Last example of mech that made the utmost use of double shielding a single target was t13!!! DAMN-those flattens followed by flare breath were nooo joke....

Unless you're running double WHM, there is no instance where you need a stoneskin when Adlo and Aspect Benefic can do you better, so that's probably why they removed it and gave you something better (though it's not as strong as Stoneskin was at its prime).

Even in Stoneskin's prime, when it use to be 18% of your max HP, it was a situational skill. Cure II for the same mp and shorter cast time gave almost double the potency in effective HP. Basically if the dmg mech did NOT need to be completely absorbed by the Stoneskin, or the target needed additional assistance to having max hp+cds, casting stoneskin was a waste of mp. A Retroactive cure II would have accomplish more healing and require less casting time.


Also fact check: getting Divine benison to execute every minute is 100% possible 100% of the time; at WORST it would cost you a GCD....but then again OLD stoneskin when a situation call for its use....cost you a GCD. Only differences are 18% and 15% and you could spam old Stoneskin until the cows come home. Just b/c you could cast the 18% all day everyday didnt mean it was needed all day everyday.... (thinking bk? I doubt it was even absolutely NEEDED anymore often than once...a minute)

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

i would share with Red Mages. maybe. because it would be useful for that SC-VerRaise-VerCure-VerRaise(rinse repeat for 12s) thing they can do. that's it. just them. because i'm a greedy little WHM that is staring down stormblood and feeling like i'm that one kid in HS, that everyone picks on. (i know Monks felt this way, and DRGs too at one point)

And yes, i'm aware that SCH's are also taking a hit, WAR a bit, but...yeah this is one of those feelings in the pit of one's stomach and all we can do is hope that the actual release is better.

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I AM looking forward to being the boss dps healer. Not looking forward to working harder for my raid spot, and having effectively nothing new in the expansion (since it currently looks like lilys and conf will be ignored in general usage)

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Originally Posted by Kethic

I AM looking forward to being the boss dps healer. Not looking forward to working harder for my raid spot, and having effectively nothing new in the expansion (since it currently looks like lilys and conf will be ignored in general usage)

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I'm going to hold judgement, depends on the basic dmg done, media release video didn't show much for a healing need (but it was a media build, so we don't know). WHMs are already being...told...they need to change on Ultros to AST, SCH or a DPS, and any recruitments flat out state "NO WHMs". We actually had a Returner get kicked from a dungeon in the first 5min on WHM today...so that was one of those moments that the Mentors were trying to soothe and distract. we got them to laugh and relax and not kneejerk leave, but...it was sad. this is already affecting the player base.

I can only HOPE our DPS can go up...and I agree...probably won't bother with Lily Gauge because of how scripted everything is.

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Originally Posted by CaeliaCat

I was talking about collective unconscious. I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous that Diurnal AST, on top of all the card utility, still gets a party wide 10% damage mitigation tool in Stormblood(that ALSO adds a HoT).

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Do you play AST? Because....collective unconscious sucks.

It is extremely situational because the AST has to channel it and cannot move or cast any abilities to use it and depending on the server tick you could be sitting there up to 3 seconds waiting for the buffs to proc before you can cancel it.

The AST has to continuously be stuck channeling it to get the 10% shield part of it so it is often just used to get the Regen from it then it is promptly cancelled which is similar to Asylum but WHM's can use Asylum freely with no restrictions and can be placed anywhere. As someone who plays both WHM and AST...WHM wins this one with Asylum imo. It is way more flexible and reliable than collective unconscious.

Not to mention you are missing the fact that AST having collective unconscious doesn't actually change anything and it is possibly needed for a certain healer composition to be viable.

With NoctAST + WHM pair the shield part of collective unconscious can be a, albeit crappy, replacement for SCH's Sacred Soil...so if AST didn't have this then the NoctAST + WHM pair would be missing mitigation that may be needed for boss ultimates. AST also doesn't have deployment tactics either so missing some more powerful shields there as well. This would make NoctAST + WHM pair possibly less viable...which isn't what we want.

With Diurnal AST + SCH healing pair...the AST doesn't need the shield part of collective unconscious anyway since SCH has Sacred Soil; so the benefit is negligible . It's only helpful if the SCH doesn't want to use a stack on it but also Sacred Soil, like Asylum, is way more flexible and doesn't need to be channeled.

The channeling aspect of collective unconscious makes it useless to use as a sacred soil replacement for anything except boss ultimate attacks (IE: A12 after adds and Alex Prime tries to melt your face off and you need the tank LB etc)...because you only get the 10% reduction as long as the AST is channeling then they can no longer move or use any other spells/abilities.

No good AST is going to sit for all of collective unconscious' duration to get the 10% shield when they could be using cards, direct healing, or DPSing so collective unconscious is basically just AST's crappy version of Asylum or crappy Sacred Soil replacement when paired with a WHM; so I really don't think it is one of the issues we are facing with healer balance.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

I'm going to hold judgement, depends on the basic dmg done, media release video didn't show much for a healing need (but it was a media build, so we don't know). WHMs are already being...told...they need to change on Ultros to AST, SCH or a DPS, and any recruitments flat out state "NO WHMs". We actually had a Returner get kicked from a dungeon in the first 5min on WHM today...so that was one of those moments that the Mentors were trying to soothe and distract. we got them to laugh and relax and not kneejerk leave, but...it was sad. this is already affecting the player base.

I can only HOPE our DPS can go up...and I agree...probably won't bother with Lily Gauge because of how scripted everything is.

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The DELETE XXX theme needs to go. It could have been any class, and it's just people finding excuses to be abusive. WHM was the worst healer for 3.x raid content, and they're still present multiple times in top 50 parses. If a group is flat out saying No WHM, then they're saying they're incompetent.

I am a WHM main, I will find a way to raid, and this will all work itself out one way or another. Lily's and Confessions are a huge disappointment and will be ignored, but the rest of the rework does make us DPS monsters while our HoTs tick away unattended. Some of my napkin math suggests our personal DPS could potentially make up the difference of a Balance, and unless we absolutely need that shield at a particular moment, Lily's will be spent blindly to buy more DPS GCDs. It's going to be that good; even more so if the Raid Bosses aren't single target. Crit procs might be a differentiator.

The reputation damage has already been done, though, and the design is discouragingly bad. Here's hoping for a useful rework.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

Snip.

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They are finding a way to be abusive, and the Vet Players are not the only ones to feel the hit, the new players, the ones coming back are being slighted on.

I did raid in 3.X on a WHM, cleared a9s on a two shot with some friends. so i know it's possible. Didn't go further due to a toxic static, but that's not the point. (The ALT healers had AST and SCH and I wasn't pressured to change my healer, thankfully, but we had 3 people that could heal, so our AST could go MNK, i know, le gasp, we used a MNK, when our other healer was there.)

we can only HOPE that the patch notes will help with this, but...as you said, the Reputation Damage has been done, and those that started it, most likely were on one of the many WHM threads where they crunched numbers and proved that currently AST is Out WHMing WHMs....and nearly Out SCHing SCHs.