OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!

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Originally Posted by kronpas

Disc priest DOES have shield, but its shields are extremely strong: an instant cast which adds at least 30% HP on top of player HP, a free shield popped when ANY of its heal crits (which is plenty, unlike this game, and STACKABLE to a certain cap).../snip

I'm tired repeating the same over and over to you :\

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I know- I actually pointed out the obvious differences in shield strength. I also pointed out that disc doesn't stack very well. As pointed out earlier, disc is incredibly OP... but even so, generally after the first, if you do bring any priests (which others are better) they go holy. Also, shield spam is incredibly boring... and the SCH is a pet healer, not shield spammer...

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I know- I actually pointed out the obvious differences in shield strength. I also pointed out that disc doesn't stack very well. As pointed out earlier, disc is incredibly OP... but even so, generally after the first, if you do bring any priests (which others are better) they go holy. Also, shield spam is incredibly boring... and the SCH is a pet healer, not shield spammer...

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Disc priest stacking was viable for some time due to spirit shell (not sure about lately). It was generally used as AOE raid shields on a short cooldown. That stacked. Kind of like AOE power word shield but more effective, and with a cast time that you could keep casting for (15?) seconds. It's similar to the effect of a tank using his wall limit break every minute, while stacking it. So, you can see why raw heals weren't needed as much.

PWS became expensive to cast to deter spamming, around the same time shell was introduced. Sounds like it was after you quit, as holy was in a better place years ago, before absorbs basically became mandatory in raids (disc and somewhat paladin). I really hope that no class becomes so imbalanced in this game, including my own ♥

A scholar will do more dmg over time. Sure the Holy AOE is great and stuns but that's negated by the fact that even putting all points into piety still only allows you to get this off 5 or 6 times and now you have no mana to heal your group.

The problem with succor is that even though it shields the group, the group still need healing after a big aoe attack.

WHM can get everyone's health up.
SCH can shield the group but then still have to think about getting everyone's health up quickly because chances are, they're still taking damage and the shields will only last a few seconds as well as having a tank to look after.

I agree with the OP.

my main issue is that having two scholars in an 8 man is a hindrance, having 2 white mages isn't

our shields need to stack or something

I really don't see the problem with Scholar healing, we can shield people and then put a 90% damage reduction bubble up....that's aoe. I think we are pretty damn good

There is no such thing called 90% dam reduction.

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Originally Posted by Ephany

The problem with succor is that even though it shields the group, the group still need healing after a big aoe attack.

WHM can get everyone's health up.
SCH can shield the group but then still have to think about getting everyone's health up quickly because chances are, they're still taking damage and the shields will only last a few seconds as well as having a tank to look after.

I agree with the OP.

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To me it's half the fun (for now) as a SCH.
You have to prioritize who you are going to heal. The tank of course and another DPS (as you can ask your fairy to heal one person while you are healing another).
I just wished that either the recast was faster or my (and my fairy) healing was stronger so I had a chance to heal the last DPS before it's too late.
It's more fun and hectic than BAM big AOE healing everybody is full HP.

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Originally Posted by Valtear

I really don't see the problem with Scholar healing, we can shield people and then put a 90% damage reduction bubble up....that's aoe. I think we are pretty damn good

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You read the skill wrong its a 10% reduction not 90%
SCH is a great class but they need some work. Their heals do NOT need buffing they are not a pet wielding white mage. What they need is traits. as a scholar we miss out on 4. 3 X enhanced Intelligence and one very big one "enhanced pet actions" that only grants you a spell speed buff when your pet crits off of a damaging move... which means it does NOTHING for Scholars. I propse we get enhanced crit instead benefiting summoners and scholars and 'enhanced pet actions' trait is edited to effect healing crits.

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Originally Posted by Eccho

I propse we get enhanced crit instead benefiting summoners and scholars and 'enhanced pet actions' trait is edited to effect healing crits.

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you gear for crit..... so for alligan pieces some of their dont have crit, where as your af does, so you would want to pick up those pieces, and look at the mytholgy access and see if they have crit or not. And scholars would be op if they could heal for what whm's do with aoes. Their mana sustain is retarded good, they have stoneskins on their heals, their pets a mini whm. I mean i solo healed garuda hm as a scholar back when i was like half darklight and had no problem doing it (no mana songs) see a whm try to do that and they will oom or pull threat. Their 2 different classes, they have their strengths their fine as it is.

just for refrence as i am now in turn 4 coil healer. I want crit > pie/mind > determ atm.

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Originally Posted by Eccho

You read the skill wrong its a 10% reduction not 90%
SCH is a great class but they need some work. Their heals do NOT need buffing they are not a pet wielding white mage. What they need is traits. as a scholar we miss out on 4. 3 X enhanced Intelligence and one very big one "enhanced pet actions" that only grants you a spell speed buff when your pet crits off of a damaging move... which means it does NOTHING for Scholars. I propse we get enhanced crit instead benefiting summoners and scholars and 'enhanced pet actions' trait is edited to effect healing crits.

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Sorry :P my mistake but even still we can mitigate a good chunk of damage. I just don't like how everybody is complaining so much, scholar is not a bad job it just needs changed a touch

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Originally Posted by Eccho

and one very big one "enhanced pet actions" that only grants you a spell speed buff when your pet crits off of a damaging move... which means it does NOTHING for Scholars. I propse we get enhanced crit instead benefiting summoners and scholars and 'enhanced pet actions' trait is edited to effect healing crits.

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It does work off of fairy healing crit, but this will trigger about 3 times at most during the course of... oh say an AK run as a healer.

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Originally Posted by ventlus

And scholars would be op if they could heal for what whm's do with aoes.

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SCHs don't need to AOE heal at WHM strength. They just need to not be total ass at it.

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Their mana sustain is retarded good

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You should have a bard in an 8 man, so I can't call this an advantage.

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they have stoneskins on their heals

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Adloquium (300/300 potency non-crit), and succor (150/150) are almost the same in strength to cure ii (650), and medica (300), just in a different form. Not exactly an advantage outside of pre-shielding.

I double posted by accident -_-

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Originally Posted by fanservice

You should have a bard in an 8 man, so I can't call this an advantage.

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Okay, so SCH doesn't require another player (a dps player) to be present and sacrifice a chunk of damage to function decently. You are trvilalizing not only dependence on another player for the class to work, but also that player to willingly underperform at his/her primary role in order to allow another class to perform decently.

Nice whitewash job on that one.

Having a whm present to heal encounters is somehow awful to you- but you just gloss over whms having to go outside role to a dps class to rely on to heal. Interesting.

Really.. 2 Whms healing is three players then.. the 2 WHMs and a bard with nerfed dps. Well, no wonder the healing is higher.

Maybe there is a way that they could require you to rely on blms for more healing, while reducing blm damage. Like maybe blms have to stop casting on the mob and cast on your pet to boost its heals. Would you like that?

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Okay, so SCH doesn't require another player (a dps player) to be present and sacrifice a chunk of damage to function decently. You are trvilalizing not only dependence on another player for the class to work, but also that player to willingly underperform at his/her primary role in order to allow another class to perform decently.

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WHMs don't need a bard to function decently. You're assuming that WHMs aren't functional without one, which is wrong. Nor do their MP bars empty as fast as you're implying.

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Having a whm present to heal encounters is somehow awful to you-

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Where the hell did I say this...?

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but you just gloss over whms having to go outside role to a dps class to rely on to heal. Interesting.

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See my first point, unless I'm mistaken, and cure is magically greyed out without the presence of a bard, and medica costs as much to cast as a BLM's flare.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

WHMs don't need a bard to function decently. You're assuming that WHMs aren't functional without one, which is wrong. Nor do their MP bars empty as fast as you're implying.



Where the hell did I say this...?



See my first point, unless I'm mistaken, and cure is magically greyed out without the presence of a bard, and medica costs as much to cast as a BLM's flare.

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..and yet your response to the mp limitation has consistantly been as you were quoted above - "8 mans always have bards".

The "amazing" healing scenarios of massive regens and medica spamming that you are weaving always seem to rely on the presence of a brd to be even remotely feasible.

If you aren't talking about having a bard to help with mana, then most of the "stories" your telling are just fantasy.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

..and yet your response to the mp limitation has consistantly been as you were quoted above - "8 mans always have bards".

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Yeah, because if MP is an issue, there's a bard. Nothing more.

I'm not the one saying WHMs aren't functional without a bard. You are. Don't pretend I'm implying that.

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The "amazing" healing scenarios of massive regens and medica spamming that you are weaving always seem to rely on the presence of a brd to be even remotely feasible.

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Now you're telling me one medica ii, followed by one or two medicas is all of a WHM's MP?

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If you aren't talking about having a bard to help with mana, then most of the "stories" your telling are just fantasy.

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Maybe you should look into using shroud of saints, or gear with piety on it...

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

..and yet your response to the mp limitation has consistantly been as you were quoted above - "8 mans always have bards".

The "amazing" healing scenarios of massive regens and medica spamming that you are weaving always seem to rely on the presence of a brd to be even remotely feasible.

If you aren't talking about having a bard to help with mana, then most of the "stories" your telling are just fantasy.

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This, ladies and gentleman, is a WHM who hasn't touched the SCH class enough to know what he's talking about.

Yes, we can give ourselves some mana back, but it would cost us around 4 times as much mana to use group heals and bring everyone's health up than it would for a WHM, so what difference does it make?
Our MP bar isn't always full and it's just as easy for us to OOM as it is for you guys. Go buy some potions and stop complaining.

ApolloGen is so... dumb. he clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

Edit: fanservice i dont even know why you keep going on with this guy.

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Originally Posted by Ephany

This, ladies and gentleman, is a WHM who hasn't touched the SCH class enough to know what he's talking about.

Yes, we can give ourselves some mana back, but it would cost us around 4 times as much mana to use group heals and bring everyone's health up than it would for a WHM, so what difference does it make?
Our MP bar isn't always full and it's just as easy for us to OOM as it is for you guys. Go buy some potions and stop complaining.

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Well, it's a good thing your style isn't just straight filling bars up, then right?? (And that is 4 times for direct healing, ignoring shields and mana free pet- and without SS reducing damage taken or anything)

Please teach me all about playing a scholar.... like a whm.


^^^ To the above - because he/she wants massive buffs to the class. Why else would she be here constantly comparing whms and SCH in a narrow way so as to always appear to favor whms? I just wish they (SE) would mention pet fixes.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Edit: fanservice i dont even know why you keep going on with this guy.

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I hate being misunderstood more than being told I'm wrong and why.

If someone wants to refute me, I'd like it if they understood what I'm saying first.

Because it does favor WHM's. they SCH's may have better Tank healing but WHMS can do it too. just becasue you have so called "mana issues" is either player error or your seriously doing something wrong without a bard in your party. our tank healing is not so good to have such a huge gap in aoe healing compared to WHM's. i dont see why you dont understand that. as it has been pointed out time and time again by various people. WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE CLASS. Jeez.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

^^^ To the above - because he/she wants massive buffs to the class. Why else would she be here constantly comparing whms and SCH in a narrow way so as to always appear to favor whms? I just wish they (SE) would mention pet fixes.

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Right back at you.
If you didn't think WHM had a bit of an advantage, you wouldn't be here crying at the chance that maybe SCH might be brought on par and you'd feel less "elite". Otherwise, why would you care what changes are made to a class you don't even play?

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Originally Posted by Celsius

Because it does favor WHM's. they SCH's may have better Tank healing but WHMS can do it too. just becasue you have so called "mana issues" is either player error or your seriously doing something wrong without a bard in your party. our tank healing is not so good to have such a huge gap in aoe healing compared to WHM's. i dont see why you dont understand that. as it has been pointed out time and time again by various people. WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE CLASS. Jeez.

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You don't play a whm. So, forgive me if I am skeptical about someone assuming their class needs buffs because the grass is greener. That never happens. Again, you fall back to the bard argument.

I guess the question is- Are you getting benched for a second WHM? If so, for which encounter?

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Originally Posted by Ephany

This, ladies and gentleman, is a WHM who hasn't touched the SCH class enough to know what he's talking about.

Yes, we can give ourselves some mana back, but it would cost us around 4 times as much mana to use group heals and bring everyone's health up than it would for a WHM, so what difference does it make?
Our MP bar isn't always full and it's just as easy for us to OOM as it is for you guys. Go buy some potions and stop complaining.

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Yes, your mp bar will not be full if you have to react to situations that require heavy raid healing. But you do get tools to mitigate damage etc. You know what white mages can't do? Increase effective health.

Honestly the only issue i see is sch synergy with two sch shields just overwriting each other. (Not suggesting stacking)

And please don't try to bring up stoneskin... That argument maybe sorta works on a tank.

You dont play a SCH. So,forgive me if i am skeptical about someone assuming a class does NOT need buffs. And nobody is saying you NEED a bard in your party. but thats just making it harder on yourself. and No, im not getting benched for a second WHM because for what i do i do it better. but when it comes to patch 2.1 and their is AoE heavy situations in which 1 WHM cannot just medica ii medica it all up. i might get benched.

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Originally Posted by Ephany

Right back at you.
If you didn't think WHM had a bit of an advantage, you wouldn't be here crying at the chance that maybe SCH might be brought on par and you'd feel less "elite". Otherwise, why would you care what changes are made to a class you don't even play?

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I am working on leveling SCH, but find ACN incredibly boring- I will be playing a SCH and completely support fixing what is really wrong with the class- namely pet AI/UI.

I am just not interested in having two classes that play essentially the same. I have even been supportive of buffing the SCH pet abilities or reducing CDs.

Unfortunately, the result is always the same- SCH QQing for abilities identical to a whm, or superior. Direct AE healing with zero emphasis on the pet... plus all the other goodies scholars get.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

No, im not getting benched for a second WHM because for what i do i do it better. but when it comes to patch 2.1 and their is AoE heavy situations in which 1 WHM cannot just medica ii medica it all up. i might get benched.

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You aren't getting benched... it sounds like it's you and a whm... and now you are "speculating" there might be AoE heavy damage that will necessitate 2 whms... because 1 can't cover it? That is what the second healer is for... preferably a SCH. There is AE damage in the game now, and WHM/SCH is the best combo... why would things suddenly change, just because you don't get massive buffs and become OP?

Your pet is junk- everyone knows the AI needs to be fixed... but asking for massive buffs because something "might be coming" is ridiculous. You do know they design encounters with these things in mind, right? Maybe they will have massive tank damage- should I be here crying for WHM buffs?

No, becasue a WHM can actually heal a raid through massive damage. Unlike SCH that depends on an AOe that cant even stack and is super mana inefficient. And no, i dont want massive buffs. i just want afix to the Pet AI and a better Aoe. it doesnt have to be on par with Medica one or medica 2 i just want to be able to contribute in AOe heavy healing situations. and its not speculation. in almost ALL MMO's endgame is very AoE heavy. WHM/SCH is the best combo right now because i can focus on keeping the tanks alive while the WHM heals up raid damage. the sad part is. is that the WHM can keep the tank up, Yet i cannot heal raid damage without chaincasting succor and pretty much OOMING myself in the process. (because face it most SCH's only use energy drain when they need to.)

Potency wise whm has much higher tank healing then sch. By around 900 higher then sch potency every 10 seconds
When you factor in lustrate sch catches up and may beat whm in small period if chaining lustrates but whm also has benediction .
So if 2 lustrates are up and whm has no benediction sch>whm
If 1 or 0 lustrates are up whm>sch

There is also the fact whm uses much less gcds to do immense healing to raid compared to sch.

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Originally Posted by Celsius

No, becasue a WHM can actually heal a tank through massive damage. Unlike SCH that depends on an AOe that cant even stack and is super mana inefficient. And no, i dont want massive buffs. i just want afix to the Pet AI and a better Aoe. it doesnt have to be on par with Medica one or medica 2 i just want to be able to contribute in AOe heavy healing situations. and its not speculation. in almost ALL MMO's endgame is very AoE heavy. WHM/SCH is the best combo right now because i can focus on keeping the tanks alive while the WHM heals up raid damage. the sad part is. is that the WHM can keep the tank up, Yet i cannot heal raid damage without chaincasting succor and pretty much OOMING myself in the process. (because face it most SCH's only use energy drain when they need to.)

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Okay... if the whm was healing the tank... and you were raid healing...could you do it? I mean- it might cost you a ton of mana (it might take the whm a lot of mana)... but you could do it I bet.

Both healers can function (not necessarily be optimal... but function), in either capacity. Yes, SCH choke a bit on AE healing... the whm would choke on heavy spike tank damage... why is that a bad thing?

I don't have a SCH at high level so I don't know how much of an issue it is, but I do have to say it's rather amusing to see people argue that "WHM needs a BRD to sustain mana" is fine but "SCH needs WHM to help AoE heal" is completely unacceptable. In both cases it's dependency on another class, but one is completely unacceptable and another is not. o.O

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Potency wise whm much higher tank healing then sch. By around 900 potency every 10 seconds
When you factor in lustrate sch catches up and may beat whm in small period if chaining lustrates but whm also has benediction .

There is also the fact whm uses much less gcds to do immense healing to raid compared to sch.

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I would be interested on the math here... I am going to go out on a limb and assume this is chaining cure 2s.......and I wonder how long the fight is...

[QUOTE=Celsius;1333748] i just want afix to the Pet AI and a better Aoe. it doesnt have to be on par with Medica one or medica 2 i just want to be able to contribute in AOe heavy healing situations. [QUOTE]

How does a preshield on aoe for mitigation plus another shield while a whm mage uses medica 2 etc not contribute? Not counting the fairy and damage reduction you bring. Its another story if you are talking about two sch but thats also a shield mechanic not a potency issue.

Its not a bad thing, i dont want to be as good as WHM's at healing up a raid. but the gap between my Aoe healing and a WHM's so so huge that it doesnt even compare to the fact that a whm is slightly less optimal for a group to use then a SCH. there are only a few abilities we have that make us usable. someone said an idea of having the shields heal for how ever much they have less is a great idea. not as good as medica 2 or 1 still unique to a SCH and allows us to use our only Aoe and not waste 400 mana doing it. and it dpeends apollo some fights i actually cant. i get 860 mana per minute. and succor takes 400 of that. i have 4.1k mana. if i was solely focusing on raid healing i STILL would not have enough (since succor heals for about 300, and most people in my group have 3.7k+ hp (besides me and the WHM)


Edit: Ariane, a 300 potency sheild is not good enough for the amount of damage a party takes in Coil right now. i'm not asking for a potency increase (if i did please tell me where i said that) i'm simply asking for better sheild mechanics again (popping the shield for more HP like someone said before is a really good idea)

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I would be interested on the math here... I am going to go out on a limb and assume this is chaining cure 2s.......and I wonder how long the fight is...

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Cure 2 costs much less mana then adloquium . You can spam cure 2 in nearly every coil fight since you bring bards to every thing. A sch trying to aoe heal will run out of mana faster then a whm trying to tank heal.
Energy drain misses in coil and makes sch fall more behind in healing then whm since they lose lustrate
Without lustrate it sch doesn't can't even touch whm's tank healing.

Also consider that whm have 33% uptime on divine seal and also that whm heals around 20-30hp more in equivilant gear.

they also forget the fact that 4 of our traits are useless and pretty much meaningless to us (im considering the one that is a 20% chance to increase spell speed that any scholar goes balls crazy to actually see go off)

@ Celsius cuz i keep breaking the quote thing and the length issues...

Its not like i don't see where you are coming from.. if the shield mechanics on your aoe were somehow tweaked to allow for healing when people are fully shielded your potency would be just as good as medica which would be fine. It should come at a cost of some sort but i'm not disagreeing.

I really do find it dumb that once shielded you are healing with 150 potency. god forbid there are two sch doing that.. but my point is maybe you shouldn't be. If your partner is a whm support him/her to raid heal while you efficiently heal the tank and also top up and shield the party so the whm can regen mana. If there are two scholars... i dunno what se was thinking... maybe double fairy regen plus st heals.. i dont' know. maybe make the dmg mitigation from various skill stack like eye, virus, soil etc.

I don't understand if sch are asking to raid heal alone or if they are actually trying to addres the sch synergy issues. Sch/sch issues are real, pet issues are real. I'm not sure that sch needing to be raid healers is an issue.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Unfortunately, the result is always the same- SCH QQing for abilities identical to a whm, or superior. Direct AE healing with zero emphasis on the pet... plus all the other goodies scholars get.

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I'll say this for the... 3rd or 4th time in this thread I think.

OP's suggestion for a 600 potency AOE heal is delusional.

I'll also say again SCHs don't need to AOE heal at WHM strength; they shouldn't be as bad as they are at AOE healing now though. A middle ground if you want to think of it that way.

Along with pet control making sense, if there were a benefit to casting succor while the shield is still up on multiple still injured people, that's a step in the right direction.

Just throwing out some ideas here, let's say SCHs got

-a 250ish potency medica.
-succor left as is.
-whispering dawn on a lower cooldown. 30-40 seconds maybe. (mind you this is 100 potency from the fairy, not the SCH. Much like embrace, it's weaker than you think)
-as well as the usual pet UI demands.

WHMs would still be stronger AOE healers with higher mind from traits, still higher potency on AOE heals and regen, along with the AOE regen not being on a recast timer. SCHs would still have their own non-gamebreaking perks such as slightly stronger tank healing, and I wouldn't complain.


As for the subject of SCHs stepping on each other's toes, it feels like a 'working as intended' moment. What they should fix is DF and 8 mans. Make WHM and SCH entirely different slots. Rather than just "healer 2/2", it could be "SCH 1/1", and "WHM 1/1".

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Originally Posted by Morthis

I don't have a SCH at high level so I don't know how much of an issue it is, but I do have to say it's rather amusing to see people argue that "WHM needs a BRD to sustain mana" is fine but "SCH needs WHM to help AoE heal" is completely unacceptable. In both cases it's dependency on another class, but one is completely unacceptable and another is not. o.O

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MP is something to manage.

In the event you need more, the bard is a failsafe.

As I've said before, WHMs can function without needing a mariachi band all fight long.

I'm glad you see where i'm coming from i wouldnt mind some kind of cost for having it eriane. and in coil i presheild incoming damage and let the WHm pre-cast medica 2 and then medica for the straight burst healing. its just sad too since virus/eye are cross class so even WHM's have those. SOil is incredibly situational as some fights you simply cannot have your party inside of it. like you said god forbid that, i mean ill throw out a pre-succor and hope to god the WHM can keep the raid up. i just.. wish i could do more you know? i dont wanna blow the WHM away or be on par with them.. i just wanna help. its not like the WHM is horribad at Tank healing like we are at AE healing ><

Really fanservice, thats all i'm aksing for. i want WHM's Niche to be AOE healing and i dont wanna take that form them. im glad you actually see where im coming from.