Melee roles are being gimped in this game

i still wonder why a class that achieves a relatively simple 300 DPS with GL3 up, is calling for buffs/"QoL fixes" when current endgame gives monk 100% GL3 uptime for the most part

@himehime: because the game is not only Coil, you know it?

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Only it didn't work out that way end game in RIFT and ranged characters could still match a melee DPS while having to put in half of the work.

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This is entirely false, completely and utterly false.
Harbinger, Shaman, Paragon, Riftblade, Nightblade, Assassin and Blade dancer all pull 10% more DPS than ranged and can maintain that DPS lead regardless of what encounter it is.
Before you suggest things are false, I would suggest actually playing the game beyond the first two months.

Dragoon wouldn't be so bad if all damage and effects occured at the start of the animation, instead of the end of it. Too many times I have started a flank or back attack, only to have a boss or mob move during the animation. If you move to follow the proper angle, it doesn't help, as movement during an animation places you in both your start and your current positions... causing it to 'miss'.

I agree completly Ive posted a way to increase equality with other long range dps in a thread here about fixing the jump abilitys, its just an idea but it would be more rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Khalous

Dragoon wouldn't be so bad if all damage and effects occured at the start of the animation, instead of the end of it. Too many times I have started a flank or back attack, only to have a boss or mob move during the animation. If you move to follow the proper angle, it doesn't help, as movement during an animation places you in both your start and your current positions... causing it to 'miss'.

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I have tested this many times in AK. You start casting ID on the boss and run to his side and it still counts as a back stab. It does work off where you are at at the start of the skill.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

This is entirely false, completely and utterly false.
Harbinger, Shaman, Paragon, Riftblade, Nightblade, Assassin and Blade dancer all pull 10% more DPS than ranged and can maintain that DPS lead regardless of what encounter it is.
Before you suggest things are false, I would suggest actually playing the game beyond the first two months.

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Back when I played Rift, rDPS Rogues (MM primarily) beat melee.

Rift is a bad example though because it fluctuates way too much due to the complexity of the soul permutations. Every patch the balance of "top DPS" shifted, although Warriors were generally on top for a longass time. In addition, individual fight mechanics were varied enough that many specs had significant advantages in different fights.

Maybe you should chill.

Give Monks something like Bloodlust, 25% more damage/25 more potency to all spells for all party members for a limited time, on like a ten min cd

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Originally Posted by Trayes

I have tested this many times in AK. You start casting ID on the boss and run to his side and it still counts as a back stab. It does work off where you are at at the start of the skill.

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But if they move say 1 meter from you in .7 sec it stops the animation effects altogether. there by nullifying the fact you even used the WS/Ability.

Is it normal in mmo's for the melee characters to all be using DoT's? Just seems weird that optimal rotations all involve using DoT's. Maybe that is normal, if so never mind.

@NeonC: i have feel the same while the beta.... why all the class of the game (you can check) have DoT???

DRG here and honestly I'm topping the parses right now in my group in Coil, have cleared through turn 4.

Monks may be in need of some buffs or tweaking, but DRG seems fine how it is.

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Originally Posted by Khalous

Dragoon wouldn't be so bad if all damage and effects occured at the start of the animation, instead of the end of it. Too many times I have started a flank or back attack, only to have a boss or mob move during the animation. If you move to follow the proper angle, it doesn't help, as movement during an animation places you in both your start and your current positions... causing it to 'miss'.

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As long as you're behind the target or flanking it when you start the animation it doesn't matter where you're at when it hits, you'll still get the bonus. Once you realize this and utilize it it becomes much easier to deal with.

Check this out
Melee were meant to be high risk, high reward type of damage dealers. I'm not saying Ranged doesn't have an advantage of having less headaches - I'm saying melee is frankly harder to play.

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Originally Posted by Bebo

But if they move say 1 meter from you in .7 sec it stops the animation effects altogether. there by nullifying the fact you even used the WS/Ability.

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Exactly.
YOU can move all you want as long as the Mob stands still.
But as soon as the mob moves (even if it still clearly looks in range) skills get interrupted.
I'm sure this is a game engine issue that they're aware of.

Fixing this issue will help a lot.
Tack on a couple QoL changes to key skills like tackle and jump, and this discussion would be pretty much moot.

Two thoughts:

1) Until you've played a warrior to endgame, you don't know what it means to play a useless class. At least melee dps have the potential to do well and have a unique LB that is in fact quite useful on many encounters.

2) Who's to say that every class needs to be exactly as easy to play as every other? Range dps is undoubtedly the easiest role in any MMO, with melee tanking more awareness and effort, and then healing, and then tanking (Depending on the encounters, this can vary greatly of course.) What's wrong with melee being more difficult so long as they can contribute?

Last thought: This doesn't need to be balanced by class changes, but rather by varying encounters. Ex: The Demon Wall boss in AK. That is a prime example of a boss where Melee DpS> Range. They don't have to stop dps at all, unlike casters who are constantly interrupted, and they have a better limit for the encounter than bards.

SE just needs to balance how they structure their boss encounters more.

AoE in this game hit both melee and range with only few exception. With melee you can still dps while avoiding aoe, as long as you stand in range. Dont forget that DRG got skill with 200 and 300 potency while the only 190 potency skill brd have is misery end which only proc when target below 20% hp.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

AoE in this game hit both melee and range with only few exception. With melee you can still dps while avoiding aoe, as long as you stand in range. Dont forget that DRG got skill with 200 and 300 potency while the only 190 potency skill brd have is misery end which only proc when target below 20% hp.

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Potency is not really a good indicator of damage-per-hit. Remember that bards have traits that give them +30% action damage so your 150 hits are more like 200.

From what I've seen, mele DPS have to deal with short aoe and long aoe while ranged only have to deal with long aoe, also the melee have to scape and enter again to hit the boss while the ranged only have to evade the circle to keep dealing damage. Futhermore the melee have to evade the cleave and thats not simple at all when the tank have to move the boss or the boss have to rotate between two tanks.

In coil: first mini boss has special area only for melee. Caduceus: melee have to evade the tail swipe and the cleave when the tank moves it. ADS, special area only for mele (and when -25% extremely big area only for melee), boss have to rotate between tanks and tanks will move when short areas so easy to get a cleave attack.

I always played ranged dps in other games and here I'm seeing that melee is far unbalanced dps if you compare with ranged dps.

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Originally Posted by Aries37

Potency is not really a good indicator of damage-per-hit. Remember that bards have traits that give them +30% action damage so your 150 hits are more like 200.

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false, bard trait +20% action damage.

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Originally Posted by NeV3rKilL

mele DPS have to deal with short aoe and long aoe while ranged only have to deal with long aoe,
In coil: first mini boss has special area only or melee. Caduceus: melee have to evade the tail swipe and the cleave when the tank moves it. ADS, special area only for mele (and when -25% extremely big area only for melee), boss have to rotate between tanks and tanks will move when short areas so easy to get a cleave attack..

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False, The only AoE melee have to evade is the circle aoe that hit around the boss. All other aoe including frontal aoe like land slide or lock on aoe like weght of land, both melee and range need to dodge them.

In coil melee will never ever have to dodge tail whip because only brain dead melee stand behind boss instead of side. For ADS if it is your tank or your group fault if you cant make 2 tanks stand at 90 degree thus cleave will never ever hit melee dps. Also in ADS, range dps too have to position themselves in W formation to avoid AoE.

Demon Wall better on melee? LOL Sure we're able to DPS a little more consistently but we lose our positional abilities. Because we can't be anywhere but in FRONT of the mob we lose our Heavy Thrust boost AND our entire ID->Dis->Chaos Thrust combo. So that's 10% flat knocked off our DPS just from no Heavy Thrust and another 10% by not having Disembowel debuff. Not to mention no Chaos Thrust DoT and the loss of the overall DPS from the combo bonuses. Also it isn't unusual for DPS to have DoT moves. We hit with lances and blades...the monster will bleed. In fact Phlebotomize actually MEANS to draw blood. I assume Chaos Thrust involves dragon venom...

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Originally Posted by Enforcer

I don't know. I'm currently on Turn 4 in Coil and i wouldn't say that i feel gimped because i'm bad, or don't know how to avoid zones, but simply because you have to work harder while having less damage output as a melee.

While there are bad ones who don't know their class very well or have a hard time dodging mechanics, the better ones shouldn't be put into a disadvantage to ranged classes.

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As a level 50 blm, most mobs in the endgame can 2 piece me where most melee can take a hit. Sure I can out dps most melee but I can also be killed a lot quicker and that's the trade off. More power yet a lot quicker to die.

the problem with the high risk/reward people are talking about is that the reward isnt proportional to the risk

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Demon Wall better on melee? LOL Sure we're able to DPS a little more consistently but we lose our positional abilities. Because we can't be anywhere but in FRONT of the mob we lose our Heavy Thrust boost AND our entire ID->Dis->Chaos Thrust combo. So that's 10% flat knocked off our DPS just from no Heavy Thrust and another 10% by not having Disembowel debuff.

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You're right about ID-DIS-CT but wrong on HT.
Just get as close to the wall as you can and you'll be able to aply Heavy Thrust no probs

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Originally Posted by Zoeila

the problem with the high risk/reward people are talking about is that the reward isnt proportional to the risk

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Basically. If ranged classes get to be safer, melees should get to put down more damage. While in optimal conditions this is the case, most fights aren't "optimal conditions" for melees, meaning downtime. More to the point, Bards get to be safer AND put down their power at all times, and more often than not the melee increased damage when they do have uptime isn't enough to match safety + 100% uptime. Bards are low risk/high reward while melees are high risk/decent reward.

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Originally Posted by Zymran

You're right about ID-DIS-CT but wrong on HT.
Just get as close to the wall as you can and you'll be able to aply Heavy Thrust no probs

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If I'm recalling my LNC/DRG correctly Heavy Thrust is activated from flanks (side), as Zymran here is saying you can get flank bonuses very easily on Demon Wall by simply going to the side of the monster part sticking out of the wall. That's what it's counting for positioning, not the wall itself.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Demon Wall better on melee? LOL Sure we're able to DPS a little more consistently but we lose our positional abilities. Because we can't be anywhere but in FRONT of the mob we lose our Heavy Thrust boost AND our entire ID->Dis->Chaos Thrust combo. So that's 10% flat knocked off our DPS just from no Heavy Thrust and another 10% by not having Disembowel debuff. Not to mention no Chaos Thrust DoT and the loss of the overall DPS from the combo bonuses. Also it isn't unusual for DPS to have DoT moves. We hit with lances and blades...the monster will bleed. In fact Phlebotomize actually MEANS to draw blood. I assume Chaos Thrust involves dragon venom...

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ID the dullahan before demonwall as it's about to die, disembowel>ct on demonwall. it'll be close to 50% uptime, since killing it around the time it casts 2nd repel takes about a minute.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Demon Wall better on melee? LOL Sure we're able to DPS a little more consistently but we lose our positional abilities. Because we can't be anywhere but in FRONT of the mob we lose our Heavy Thrust boost AND our entire ID->Dis->Chaos Thrust combo. So that's 10% flat knocked off our DPS just from no Heavy Thrust and another 10% by not having Disembowel debuff. Not to mention no Chaos Thrust DoT and the loss of the overall DPS from the combo bonuses. Also it isn't unusual for DPS to have DoT moves. We hit with lances and blades...the monster will bleed. In fact Phlebotomize actually MEANS to draw blood. I assume Chaos Thrust involves dragon venom...

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His box is a circle like every boss. You can hit him in the side (HT). Monks have to spend half the fight in front though and are hurt more accordingly

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Originally Posted by xyaie

His box is a circle like every boss. You can hit him in the side (HT). Monks have to spend half the fight in front though and are hurt more accordingly

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Not really. Dragon Kick>Twin Snake>Snap punch is a pretty good flank only combo. You can still get all your buffs and DOTs too. DRG actually loses a bit more dps on the wall due to lack of disembowel and chaos thrust.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Not really. Dragon Kick>Twin Snake>Snap punch is a pretty good flank only combo. You can still get all your buffs and DOTs too. DRG actually loses a bit more dps on the wall due to lack of disembowel and chaos thrust.

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Both when he is doing the outside lines as well as during the repulse you are doing 100 potency attacks, bootshine still hits harder than dragon kick, and true strike harder than twin snake (even if not a huge difference). I'd say the potential damage of those still outweighs disembowel and chaos thrust. Moreso due to the time spent in front (where a dragoon loses 0 dps from time spent on the side on this fight)

They should just raise the threat generation for all dps across the board. Those who melee wouldn't have to worry much about the change unless a fight was less demanding positionally. But ranged would be forced to make their presence less significant to ensure their own survival in pretty much every fight.

Buff DRGs please Square.

yup resurrecting this necro thread so i dont get people whining about making a new one.

You guys whine no matter what anyone does, but i digress let me move to the subject.

Currently you "CAN" take melee into garuda extreme but they are a hinderance to the battle.

Currently the only reason you dont stack BLM/BRD is because of the limit break issue. (Needing a mix of different jobs to properly build limit break.)

We wouldnt "WANT" to stack BLM/BRD if the content was suitable for each role..

Please make content viable to use each job.

You dont want to nerf BLM but all the new content has been created so that a melee is a handicap in the fight.

Melee take more damage in garuda ex. causing the fight to be more difficult for healers, they already have enough on their hands.. so why take a melee?

Leviathan melee "CANNOT" attack from behind (at least this is how it appears) thus suffering a `major` loss of DPS on their part.

Why do you keep turning monks/dragoons into the little brother your mother makes you take out with your friends?

People currently only take melee for the limit break.

Just make the jobs worth while and there wouldnt be a problem.

You're complaining about melee in Garuda EX, but perhaps forgetting about casters in Titan EX. The Titan fight is far far easier for melee to maximize their DPS. And Ifrit EX doesn't seem to matter much either way (assuming healers don't murder melee with Searing Winds). So uh... sounds like a trade-off, no? I have DRG and BLM leveled, and simply take the easier job to its respective fight.

I'd rather take melee to Ultima HM as well, as I seem to be constantly interrupted when trying to play BLM on it.

Melee need to know what the mechanics in the Garuda fight, or else they will be as you say, ineffective.

Well... melee dps makes garuda faster. Just don't spine shatter over to surpana until they do the double wicked, during tornado phase.

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Leviathan melee "CANNOT" attack from behind (at least this is how it appears) thus suffering a `major` loss of DPS on their part.

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That's the amazing thing with people that don't even know how a boss gonna behave

I feel like a lot of the DRG headaches could be avoided by doing something fairly simple that would add an interesting mechanic to the class, while staying true to the feel of classic FF Dragoons.

Namely, make it so DRG is invulnerable (or automatically dodges) while in midair during a jump. This would add a unique mechanic that allows the DRG to avoid things with proper timing while dealing damage, which has always been a big appeal of dragoons for me in older FF games. Probably the biggest, actually. Being able to just avoid damage while delivering a powerful strike is very useful. It'd also be nice if in addition to this we got our longer airtime back, to be a little more forgiving on timing the jump correctly.

I haven't actually hit endgame with DRG, but would this alleviate a lot of problems it faces?

How about going in as Lancer cross class provoke and handle spiny while OT vokes Sup.
You could also do the single tank method using the same thing. Of course you could always just wait for WW then cross over and go to town.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Leviathan melee "CANNOT" attack from behind (at least this is how it appears) thus suffering a `major` loss of DPS on their part.

Why do you keep turning monks/dragoons into the little brother your mother makes you take out with your friends?

People currently only take melee for the limit break.

Just make the jobs worth while and there wouldnt be a problem.

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I learned today that we, apparently, do not need to ever attack from the behind or flank. Courtesy of this Tank :)

http://i.imgur.com/3pdWYrp.jpg

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Originally Posted by Asakura93

I learned today that we, apparently, do not need to ever attack from the behind or flank. Courtesy of this Tank :)

http://i.imgur.com/3pdWYrp.jpg

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SMH How did it never occur to him to ASK why mnks move instead saying something that makes him look that bad/even more ignorant. xD