Removing elemental nukes from WHM

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Originally Posted by Lady

Well it was rude...

Stating a whm could solo with Banish is ridiculous. But again, I think this is another situation where someone wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2

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Your response was also rude, as you did not read the OP and presumed you knew where the basis of this thread came from.

Aero & Stone would be replaced with 2 light spells of equal potency to Aero & Stone. The ability to solo would not change.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

Alhanelem: My original suggestion wasn't to remove WHM's ability to be offensive, but to simply open up the spectrum of elemental affinity by giving WHM more consistent spells (that have low resistance), and giving BLM the full elemental wheel, to be able to take advantage of elemental weaknesses.

So a sideways trade for WHM, but an upgrade for BLM & the elemental affinity that is currently barely existent..

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

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So how exactly do you think the Elemental Wheel works in this game? I'm curious because your understanding of this+the actual game lore seems to be where you keep tripping over your sneakers.

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Originally Posted by fusional

so, remove elemental nukes that fall in line with WHM lore in FFXIV because WHM doesn't have them in other FF titles with different lore.

oooooookay

i'm starting to see a recurring theme of stalwart bias in these threads

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People seem to really love this "lore" argument. Perhaps it's because it is the only thing holding that opinion together.

The game mechanics would be improved as a whole, by increasing the usefulness of elemental affinity.
Aero, Stone and Water spells would not be gimped as time goes on, due to the spells having to be gimped in order to keep in line with WHM's ability as a healer (and a DD). Thus also making elemental affinity more effective.
WHM's ability to deal damage would not decrease, in fact with less elemental affinity, their spell set would resist less against more mobs.
Giving BLM the other half of the elements (as the primary mage DD in the game currently), would increase their affinity spectrum, make the job less mind numbingly boring, and have next to no effect on WHM's ability as a healer and back up nuker.

Don't give me that CNJ rubbish either. The only time you will ever use CNJ is possibly when you are solo'ing. Even then, you lack an extremely nice WHM only buff - Regen.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So how exactly do you think the Elemental Wheel works in this game? I'm curious because your understanding of this+the actual game lore seems to be where you keep tripping over your sneakers.

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It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

The umbral/astral wheel was supposedly getting abolished.

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

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Originally Posted by Lady

Well it was rude...

Stating a whm could solo with Banish is ridiculous. But again, I think this is another situation where someone wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2

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Back in the day as in FFXIV prior to all the class changes. Were you around when THM had scourge and banish, and cnj had ALL of the element attack spells?

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Originally Posted by Altena

People seem to really love this "lore" argument. Perhaps it's because it is the only thing holding that opinion together.

The game mechanics would be improved as a whole, by increasing the usefulness of elemental affinity.
Aero, Stone and Water spells would not be gimped as time goes on, due to the spells having to be gimped in order to keep in line with WHM's ability as a healer (and a DD). Thus also making elemental affinity more effective.
WHM's ability to deal damage would not decrease, in fact with less elemental affinity, their spell set would resist less against more mobs.
Giving BLM the other half of the elements (as the primary mage DD in the game currently), would increase their affinity spectrum, make the job less mind numbingly boring, and have next to no effect on WHM's ability as a healer and back up nuker.

Don't give me that CNJ rubbish either. The only time you will ever use CNJ is possibly when you are solo'ing. Even then, you lack an extremely nice WHM only buff - Regen.

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So Black Mage's elemental spells mechanic would improve if they have all the elements? No it just makes it more convenient, when you weild all the elements there will be less incidents where you have to consider how you will contribute in the party when the enemy has no weakness you can take advantage of. Having all the elements won't determine how fun Black Mage is, how SE design Black Mage will. I'd love a source on the changing of the elemental wheel haven't read that one if it's true.

I think what bothers me more is that blm doesn't have the whole elemental wheel at their disposal. Idc too much that whm gets stone and wind spells, but why cant blm cast them too? Idk what's going on in alpha but i hope that's one of changes the mages go through.

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Originally Posted by Altena

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

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Where was this said? post please

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Originally Posted by Lady

Where was this said? post please

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Ages ago. Early early days. Don't have a source for you.

"Supposedly" was the keyword in my last post. May not happen either.

*edit*

Tried to find it for you but couldn't. Could of been a game of chinese whispers, and probably just heard it from someone who heard it from someone. Eh, the current wheel is still lop sided either way.

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Originally Posted by Altena

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

The umbral/astral wheel was supposedly getting abolished.

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

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So even though you KNOW it's not a wheel, you're going to keep calling it that. And don't give me the 'but the blm needs the other triangle of spells thing' They don't. See, the in game lore you keep saying doesn't matter was divided into '2 magic schools' even before the mages were.

Your problem at the end of the day is that you wanna see green and brown colors shoot out of the Black Mages hands. Because that will some how make it magically work better. But the reality is, that will change nothing of it's function. If you think the role is broken (which honestly, it was one of the most effective DD's in 1.0 so I don't buy this) but fine, you think it's broken...then talk about how to fix it's actual functionality...not about the spells another mage can cast that you want...because it makes sense to you based on a game you once played...

Why DID blm supposedly only use 'Thunder chains' It had access to other spells...why were mages not using those. Maybe fix that first (again, it doesn't need fixed...I used basically every spell on my BLM bar, effectively...even the blizzard lines so I'm not sure why people think it was a 'Thunder' Mage)

Lastly, you are not getting the fact that Jobs aren't >Classes. Classes have their own uses and purposes. CNJ was not meant to be main healer...they can heal yes, but they can DD too. They are a hybrid, their damage and healing are balanced with their skillsets, but a CNJ will not outshine a THM or BLM on DD....even now. A THM with Wind or Earth equipment equipped can in fact, cast Stone and Aero for the same (if not occasionally better) Damage than CNJ. This is due to all the SKILLS THM gets like 'Enhanced Magic Potency' and 'Enhanced Magic Critical Potency' boosts. Not to mention timer skills like Excruciate and Dark Seal.

BLM vs WHM DD is even a greater disparity. Sure, once again WHM can cast the Stone>Aero line of spells. But if they want to DD effectively and at full power, they must 'Cleric Stance' and weaken their healing ability to do so. So once again...they are an excellent healer and modest DD...at best. But BLM with powers like 'convert' can do an amazing amount of DD. They typically out DD EVERYONE else in the party...and I most def. have never been in a party wherein the WHM out performed the BLM on damage....ever.

Which brings me back to 'Why do you need these 4 spells again?' Because you are bored? Well BLM can be tweaked to include different abilities functions if that is the case, but it doesn't NEED these 4 spells to fix that....not only that, even if you had Aero and Stone, you still would never cast them...you'd cast Thunder 80% of the time. Although if you expect stone to retain it's debuff (which it wouldn't if CNJ/WHM was no longer it's caster) then you'd do Stone>Thunder until stone drops>stone>thunder until stone drops.

Black mage IS a park and bark caster. Once a mobs weakness is discovered, you just cast the most effective spell over and over and over until you are the mob are dead. This won't change even ifyou have 100's of spells, you will still cast the 'most effective' spells. This game's go to 'effective' spell is Thunder-chaining...getting extra spells won't correct that. You'd be better off asking for mobs that change their elemental weaknesses then asking to 'fix' blm by 'screwing' WHM

Seems like they're taking on an old school approach to magic. (no surprise considering all the FF3 references)

BLM traditionally only had access to Fire, Ice and Lightning, whereas later WHM got Aero. WHM needs the ability to solo, so that's why they have to have some damage dealing spells. I'd just really like to see BLM get some more variety in their spells. in FF4, Rydia had the three elements plus a lot of other spells, such as Bio, Quake and Flare. It'd be nice to see some of those spells come back.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Lastly, you are not getting the fact that Jobs aren't >Classes. Classes have their own uses and purposes. CNJ was not meant to be main healer...they can heal yes, but they can DD too. They are a hybrid, their damage and healing are balanced with their skillsets, but a CNJ will not outshine a THM or BLM on DD....even now. A THM with Wind or Earth equipment equipped can in fact, cast Stone and Aero for the same (if not occasionally better) Damage than CNJ. This is due to all the SKILLS THM gets like 'Enhanced Magic Potency' and 'Enhanced Magic Critical Potency' boosts. Not to mention timer skills like Excruciate and Dark Seal.

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I don't think youve figured this out yet, but jobs are ADVANCED classes in this game. If you decide to play without the job soul equipped, solo or party, your gimped. One part of this broken system.

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BLM vs WHM DD is even a greater disparity. Sure, once again WHM can cast the Stone>Aero line of spells. But if they want to DD effectively and at full power, they must 'Cleric Stance' and weaken their healing ability to do so. So once again...they are an excellent healer and modest DD...at best. But BLM with powers like 'convert' can do an amazing amount of DD. They typically out DD EVERYONE else in the party...and I most def. have never been in a party wherein the WHM out performed the BLM on damage....ever.

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Do you have any qualms with BLM becoming and excellent DD and modest healer? I hope you dont. But, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "But... But.... the lore!!!".

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Which brings me back to 'Why do you need these 4 spells again?' Because you are bored? Well BLM can be tweaked to include different abilities functions if that is the case, but it doesn't NEED these 4 spells to fix that....not only that, even if you had Aero and Stone, you still would never cast them...you'd cast Thunder 80% of the time. Although if you expect stone to retain it's debuff (which it wouldn't if CNJ/WHM was no longer it's caster) then you'd do Stone>Thunder until stone drops>stone>thunder until stone drops.

Black mage IS a park and bark caster. Once a mobs weakness is discovered, you just cast the most effective spell over and over and over until you are the mob are dead. This won't change even ifyou have 100's of spells, you will still cast the 'most effective' spells. This game's go to 'effective' spell is Thunder-chaining...getting extra spells won't correct that. You'd be better off asking for mobs that change their elemental weaknesses then asking to 'fix' blm by 'screwing' WHM

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BLM needs access to all of them. If one would call WHM the Healing superiority of FFXIV, then BLM should be the elemental superiority of XIV. There was a time where CNJ had all the elemental spells and THM had Scourge and Banish, and no qualms came from me about that. If they had shifted ALL of the elemental spells from CNJ to THM as they took away Scourge, banish, and all heals and resurrect, while giving CNJ those with all the heals and best raising ability for use on their JOBS, it would have been totally fine.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I don't think youve figured this out yet, but jobs are ADVANCED classes in this game. If you decide to play without the job soul equipped, solo or party, your gimped. One part of this broken system.

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No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different. White Mage serves a party role. I go out and solo/duo trio on my Conjurer all the time, because I don't NEED to be the 'healer specialist... But sure, for bosses, endgame PARTY play, I role WHM, and I'm an excellent one. But that doesn't prove your mis-guided point. Just because you WANT WHM to be 'advanced' Conjurer it doesn't make it so. By that logic, WHM is ALSO 'advanced Gladiator'.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Do you have any qualms with BLM becoming and excellent DD and modest healer? I hope you dont. But, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "But... But.... the lore!!!".

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Black mage is already an excellent DD. It is the most widely used, highest spike damage DD in the game (as it should be), giving it healing abilities on top of that would make it over-powered (which THM was back in the day). The problem people are having left and right in this topic is they are confusing 'boring' with 'weak'. Just because people don't think that casting the same spells over and over is fun, does not make the job 'weak' or 'broken'. Again, if you want it to be more dynamic, fine. Then come up with ideas to make it so, but taking spells from one mage and adding them to another won't 'fix' the 'but we only use one spell tree problem'.

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Originally Posted by Reika

BLM needs access to all of them. If one would call WHM the Healing superiority of FFXIV, then BLM should be the elemental superiority of XIV. There was a time where CNJ had all the elemental spells and THM had Scourge and Banish, and no qualms came from me about that. If they had shifted ALL of the elemental spells from CNJ to THM as they took away Scourge, banish, and all heals and resurrect, while giving CNJ those with all the heals and best raising ability for use on their JOBS, it would have been totally fine.

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Why does it need access to all elemental spells? Nothing in the lore, storyline etc makes blm the 'Elemental Superiority of XIV' it IS the 'Damage Mage' but Damage Mage doesn't mean 'Elemental' You are all making it that...not SE, not the lore.

Also, NO it would not have been fine. Conjurer IS a 'Druid' type of character... technically, they are the 'Elemental Mage' with a focus on nature and 'goodness' THM is NOT. THM however, is focused on destruction and the dark side of magic...which does lend towards the destructive 'nature' spells. So basically, by your logic, Conjurer should have unlocked BOTH black and White Mage. Once again, THM is the job that doesn't make sense....not CNJ.

Just because you FEEL like it should be something else, again, does not make it so. This all goes back to 'Conjurer is it's own stand alone class with it's own lore and feel...and to change this to what 'feels right' to you, they would have to completely rework, ALL the storylines and lore relating to Gridania, and the guilds within it...not to mention THM lore.

Lastly, they are reworking the Mages a little bit for ARR...not only that, I would bet money that while CNJ/WHM will keep the Stone/Aero spells they have now, Black Mage WILL gain access to Tornado, Quake and Flood as Ancient Magic when the time is right. (Level caps raised). As the Ancient Magics are being treated differently than the 'basic' elemental Magics.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different. White Mage serves a party role. I go out and solo/duo trio on my Conjurer all the time, because I don't NEED to be the 'healer specialist... But sure, for bosses, endgame PARTY play, I role WHM, and I'm an excellent one. But that doesn't prove your mis-guided point. Just because you WANT WHM to be 'advanced' Conjurer it doesn't make it so. By that logic, WHM is ALSO 'advanced Gladiator'.



Black mage is already an excellent DD. It is the most widely used, highest spike damage DD in the game (as it should be), giving it healing abilities on top of that would make it over-powered (which THM was back in the day). The problem people are having left and right in this topic is they are confusing 'boring' with 'weak'. Just because people don't think that casting the same spells over and over is fun, does not make the job 'weak' or 'broken'. Again, if you want it to be more dynamic, fine. Then come up with ideas to make it so, but taking spells from one mage and adding them to another won't 'fix' the 'but we only use one spell tree problem'.




Why does it need access to all elemental spells? Nothing in the lore, storyline etc makes blm the 'Elemental Superiority of XIV' it IS the 'Damage Mage' but Damage Mage doesn't mean 'Elemental' You are all making it that...not SE, not the lore.

Also, NO it would not have been fine. Conjurer IS a 'Druid' type of character... technically, they are the 'Elemental Mage' with a focus on nature and 'goodness' THM is NOT. THM however, is focused on destruction and the dark side of magic...which does lend towards the destructive 'nature' spells. So basically, by your logic, Conjurer should have unlocked BOTH black and White Mage. Once again, THM is the job that doesn't make sense....not CNJ.

Just because you FEEL like it should be something else, again, does not make it so. This all goes back to 'Conjurer is it's own stand alone class with it's own lore and feel...and to change this to what 'feels right' to you, they would have to completely rework, ALL the storylines and lore relating to Gridania, and the guilds within it...not to mention THM lore.

Lastly, they are reworking the Mages a little bit for ARR...not only that, I would bet money that while CNJ/WHM will keep the Stone/Aero spells they have now, Black Mage WILL gain access to Tornado, Quake and Flood as Ancient Magic when the time is right. (Level caps raised). As the Ancient Magics are being treated differently than the 'basic' elemental Magics.

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No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

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Originally Posted by Reika

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

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Nope...wrong again.
Conjurer can equip conjurer spells PLUS spells from THM, and actions from roles like Gladiator, Pugilist and Archer....among others, creating a DDing mage that has some survivability and still some group heals. Sure, it doesn't DD like a Black Mage, but it can stand alone. However, it can only do this at the expense of being able to equip WHM abilities like Regen and having Benediction (among other restorative spells/skills)

White Mage is an excellent party healer. Regen alone makes it awesome. But it lacks the power (even with cleric's stance) to be an effective DD for very long. Not only that, most of it's dd spells, are typically cast to HELP the Black Mages and THM's do MORE damage. But White Mage gains these awesome group/individual heals and skills at the cost of DD flexibility. No longer can the slot skills from any class tree. No one invites a White Mage to a party for it's nuking potential...ever.

This is why one of my friends use to solo chocobo escort reasons as CNJ over WHM. He could complete the mission with decent scores by using his cross-class skills on CNJ he wouldn't have had access to on WHM. He did so well he earned that silly chocobo hat +all the company stuff he could buy WAY before people started spamming those missions and it was commonplace to see full groups out there.
But again, you can keep saying what you THINK should be true instead of what is ACTUALLY true.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Nope...wrong again.
Conjurer can equip conjurer spells PLUS spells from THM, and actions from roles like Gladiator, Pugilist and Archer....among others, creating a DDing mage that has some survivability and still some group heals. Sure, it doesn't DD like a Black Mage, but it can stand alone. However, it can only do this at the expense of being able to equip WHM abilities like Regen and having Benediction (among other restorative spells/skills)

White Mage is an excellent party healer. Regen alone makes it awesome. But it lacks the power (even with cleric's stance) to be an effective DD for very long. Not only that, most of it's dd spells, are typically cast to HELP the Black Mages and THM's do MORE damage. But White Mage gains these awesome group/individual heals and skills at the cost of DD flexibility. No longer can the slot skills from any class tree. No one invites a White Mage to a party for it's nuking potential...ever.

This is why one of my friends use to solo chocobo escort reasons as CNJ over WHM. He could complete the mission with decent scores by using his cross-class skills on CNJ he wouldn't have had access to on WHM. He did so well he earned that silly chocobo hat +all the company stuff he could buy WAY before people started spamming those missions and it was commonplace to see full groups out there.
But again, you can keep saying what you THINK should be true instead of what is ACTUALLY true.

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That is still gimping yourself. you can have 5 low lvl skills more skills from this or that class, or you can have 5 better ways to keep yourself alive even solo. Regen > all solo. Saves you a lot of MP for hp recovery when your pretending to be a BLM...... in the end, the job skills are better than the low level class skills any day. WHM > CNJ.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different.

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Originally Posted by Reika

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

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Actually I agree with Reika on this one. Once I got Regen on WHM, I never looked back at CNJ. Sure, CNJ might outdamage WHM with Vanya Gear, but I can't be stopped with Regen and still do good damage.

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Originally Posted by Reika

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

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But you could not longer use skills from other classes. So in that sense its arguable that CNJ was better.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Actually I agree with Reika on this one. Once I got Regen on WHM, I never looked back at CNJ. Sure, CNJ might outdamage WHM with Vanya Gear, but I can't be stopped with Regen and still do good damage.

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Simply this, WHM has far more survivability than CNJ, and your damage doesnt even have any real noticable decrease. even without vanya gear, you can always trade out some AF pieces with Wind/earth mag potency ringbands with materia in them, a different helm so as not to decrease your attack m potency, and still do wonders in healing to yourself, with just regen.

If you actually picked CNJ over WHM after getting regen, well I'm sorry you made things so hard for yourself :/

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Originally Posted by Lady

But you could not longer use skills from other classes. So in that sense its arguable that CNJ was better.

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Actually you could still use skills from Gladiator and Pugilist.... Each job had 2 other classes it could still take skills from. Having gladiator and pugilist alone meant you had sentinel for dmg reduction, featherfoot for a free evade + mp regain from it, second wind, the MP-less self heal....

and if you were really getting beat on, by golly benediction. Cant do that on CNJ.

and by golly if youre still sucking it, Repose and run away to fight another day.

A. WHM / CNJ can out damage DD BLM on stone weak monsters (wish I had a parser back when my friend and I were testing). On normal monsters WHM is only a little behind its nothing like watching a Fisher try to out damage a class - having all the survival skills greatly helps the WHM in comparison though. Difference between CNJ DD and WHM DD is just RNG.

B. WHM has GLD and PUG the only two sub classes you really need - you cant combo with THM's elemental skills anyways so unless you are trying to fight frogs or something just stick with stone and aero.

C. WHM absorbs all of CNJ skills


A+B+C WHM > CNJ

If you need DD gear you can just materia it, just like the BLM does.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Actually you could still use skills from Gladiator and Pugilist.... Each job had 2 other classes it could still take skills from. Having gladiator and pugilist alone meant you had sentinel for dmg reduction, featherfoot for a free evade + mp regain from it, second wind, the MP-less self heal....

and if you were really getting beat on, by golly benediction. Cant do that on CNJ.

and by golly if youre still sucking it, Repose and run away to fight another day.

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While I agree with you, and I am appauled at my spelling skills. Someone could certainly argue that having skills from THM made CNJ > WHM... Its all a matter of opinion. I'm completely open to suggestions, and refuse to get caught up in the FFXI MO, that things are "only good a certain way and don't you dare argue".

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Originally Posted by Lady

While I agree with you, and I am appauled at my spelling skills. Someone could certainly argue that having skills from THM made CNJ > WHM... Its all a matter of opinion. I'm completely open to suggestions, and refuse to get caught up in the FFXI MO, that things are only good a certain way and don't you dare argue.

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But the reason I think WHM should lose the ability to cast elemental magic is to make CNJ the better damager. If it continues like it has been, there is no reason to use the classes over the jobs.

CNJ certainly should be MUCH better than WHM at doing damage, however that cant happen when WHM can use all of its spells and abilities, and the measly low level spells you can take from THM that you cant even combo with really do not help CNJ do more damage. CNJ cant do the thunder-thundara combo, and it cant use thundaga. Its gimping yourself to even try. CNJ and other classes could see party roles, where CNJ is the one that kills the stone/aero/water weak monsters while BLM is the one that kills the thunder/fire/ice weak monsters, Or if the monsters really have no weakness you can just pick one, and WHM heals them all while they do it.

Only another overhaul of the system to totally make classes and their attached jobs different of can fix this. Waiting til the cap is lvl99 is unacceptible (someone mentioned that :/). Either they do that, or just get rid of classes. Make all the noobs start out as lvl 1 Paladins, Lvl1 White mages, Lvl 1 Dragoons. Thats pretty much what they handed us anyways.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

A. WHM / CNJ can out damage DD BLM on stone weak monsters (wish I had a parser back when my friend and I were testing). On normal monsters WHM is only a little behind its nothing like watching a Fisher try to out damage a class - having all the survival skills greatly helps the WHM in comparison though. Difference between CNJ DD and WHM DD is just RNG.

B. WHM has GLD and PUG the only two sub classes you really need - you cant combo with THM's elemental skills anyways so unless you are trying to fight frogs or something just stick with stone and aero.

C. WHM absorbs all of CNJ skills


A+B+C WHM > CNJ

If you need DD gear you can just materia it, just like the BLM does.

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If this were in fact true, please explain why people DID NOT stack White Mages or Conjurers to do most endgame content but DID stack Black Mages for a fair bit of it. And all you are all proving is that you don't know how to use classes well. Did it ever occur to you that there are times when you don't even need regen to heal? That Stoneskin and and Second Wind and Sentinel (abilities a THM can use as well by the way) are more than enough to keep you happy and healthy, and in these situations (albeit not typical party play) CNJ is a better choice than WHM). In these cases, you can gain more damage output with CNJ over WHM. Period.

It is not my fault you all can't see the pros of using the base classes over jobs nor that you all can't have the foresight to see that while there isn't an enormous difference between base classes and jobs at the moment, the ability to use skills from all the classes on another class still does occasionally, especially for soloing and light parties, trump the job. As we gain levels post 50, the differences will of course, be much more severe...but that will take a level cap raise and other in game changes for you all to see. Again, sorry most of you are shortsighted or impatient.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

It is not my fault you all can't see the pros of using the base classes over jobs nor that you all can't have the foresight to see that while there isn't an enormous difference between base classes and jobs at the moment, the ability to use skills from all the classes on another class still does occasionally, especially for soloing and light parties, trump the job. As we gain levels post 50, the differences will of course, be much more severe...but that will take a level cap raise and other in game changes for you all to see. Again, sorry most of you are shortsighted or impatient.

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the point is that classes are supposed to be generic, and more solo-centric, while jobs are for party.

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That is still gimping yourself. you can have 5 low lvl skills more skills from this or that class, or you can have 5 better ways to keep yourself alive even solo. Regen > all solo. Saves you a lot of MP for hp recovery when your pretending to be a BLM...... in the end, the job skills are better than the low level class skills any day. WHM > CNJ.

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http://24.media.tumblr.com/a6d1d2ed8...6o1_r1_500.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOqoiL-RRs

This is not me in the video, I found it on youtube. Please do not take offense because of the gif Reika. You are not a b!tch; I'm just trying to make people see the worth in classes.

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Originally Posted by MuCephei

http://24.media.tumblr.com/a6d1d2ed8...6o1_r1_500.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOqoiL-RRs

This is not me in the video, I found it on youtube. Please do not take offense because of the gif Reika. You are not a b!tch; I'm just trying to make people see the worth in classes
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Cool video. Tho, he could have reached the scarred without accidently pulling others without the range buff, so none of that is anything a WHM couldn't have done equally well without loseing that much health. In other words - WHM would have had nearly equal damage with better HP recovery. It can wear all that same gear after all.

well...mkay

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Originally Posted by Altena

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

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I've never read anywhere that they are changing the elemental wheel to such. ATM there isn't the same single wheel that FFXI has that was Water > Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Thunder > Water and Light <-> Dark. 1.0 had 3 wheels Wind > Fire > Ice > Wind; Earth > Thunder > Water > Earth; and Light(Astral) <-> Dark(Umbral). This info was actually in game and could be found at the THM guild in Ul'dah by reading the books on the counter. And as such Ifrit wasn't weak to water but weak to Wind in 1.0. If you find the post share it with us, otherwise your comment can be called truth.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Cool video. Tho, he could have reached the scarred without accidently pulling others without the range buff, so none of that is anything a WHM couldn't have done equally well without loseing that much health. In other words - WHM would have had nearly equal damage with better HP recovery. It can wear all that same gear after all.

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Actually, he couldn't have reached it without Resonance...you can plainly see in the second example 'the target is too far below you' in his chat log when he attempted his original cast... still either way doesn't matter, it's not the only non WHM available skill he used.
He ALSO used 'Sanguine Rite' 'Dark Seal' and 'Necrogenesis' All THM abilities.
From GLA he used 'Sentinel' and Rampart (these you can use as a whm)
From PUG he used 'Featherfoot' and 'Second Wind' (these you can also use as WHM)
From ARC he had 'Chameleon' on his action bar although I didn't see him use it in this instance.

And I saw all this watching it once through.

But yeah, you can totally do all that as White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Actually, he couldn't have reached it without Resonance...you can plainly see in the second example 'the target is too far below you' in his chat log when he attempted his original cast... still either way doesn't matter, it's not the only non WHM available skill he used.
He ALSO used 'Sanguine Rite' 'Dark Seal' and 'Necrogenesis' All THM abilities.
From GLA he used 'Sentinel' and Rampart (these you can use as a whm)
From PUG he used 'Featherfoot' and 'Second Wind' (these you can also use as WHM)
From ARC he had 'Chameleon' on his action bar although I didn't see him use it in this instance.

And I saw all this watching it once through.

But yeah, you can totally do all that as White Mage.

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Hey Kinsey. :) You do a much better job defending CNJ than I.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Actually, he couldn't have reached it without Resonance...you can plainly see in the second example 'the target is too far below you' in his chat log when he attempted his original cast... still either way doesn't matter, it's not the only non WHM available skill he used.
He ALSO used 'Sanguine Rite' 'Dark Seal' and 'Necrogenesis' All THM abilities.
From GLA he used 'Sentinel' and Rampart (these you can use as a whm)
From PUG he used 'Featherfoot' and 'Second Wind' (these you can also use as WHM)
From ARC he had 'Chameleon' on his action bar although I didn't see him use it in this instance.

And I saw all this watching it once through.

But yeah, you can totally do all that as White Mage.

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Too far above you was because of his eleveation.... Resonance doesnt effect elevation but range :/

My sincere apologies Altena for straying so off topic.

What about this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMT2efvsfoY

You can see in the chat log that the CNJ used Resonance to pull Ranig'oh. So maybe that is one of the highlights about being CNJ>WHM; being able to pull mobs and raise people from a long distance.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

If this were in fact true, please explain why people DID NOT stack White Mages or Conjurers to do most endgame content but DID stack Black Mages for a fair bit of it. And all you are all proving is that you don't know how to use classes well. Did it ever occur to you that there are times when you don't even need regen to heal? That Stoneskin and and Second Wind and Sentinel (abilities a THM can use as well by the way) are more than enough to keep you happy and healthy, and in these situations (albeit not typical party play) CNJ is a better choice than WHM). In these cases, you can gain more damage output with CNJ over WHM. Period.

It is not my fault you all can't see the pros of using the base classes over jobs nor that you all can't have the foresight to see that while there isn't an enormous difference between base classes and jobs at the moment, the ability to use skills from all the classes on another class still does occasionally, especially for soloing and light parties, trump the job. As we gain levels post 50, the differences will of course, be much more severe...but that will take a level cap raise and other in game changes for you all to see. Again, sorry most of you are shortsighted or impatient.

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I dont know if you refused to read and rather just respond with rebutal but I said monsters weak to stone.

People wont stack a WHM for DD because EG monsters (bosses being the most important) are not weak to stone - in fact for the most part they don't care what you cast on them.

I wager most of that is because the wheel is all screwed up. However crap in the normal day to day can be weak to stone and you can tell. Just like casting thunder on a frog - its just loltastic. If SE wants to fix the wheel then WHM cannot be main DDing stone/aero weak monsters that will just be fked up.

Also WHM is better then CNJ its amazing to see "resonance" and "chameleon" as an excuse why they outclass a WHM with its 5 golden abilities. I don't care if you can do a back pentaflip when it snows, clear sky, moon is out, and Dalamud is falling. On average WHM > CNJ, and since I don't think we were referring to the blue-moon, WHM > CNJ.

If you want thunder go THM and pick up CNJ spells, the combo on THM will be far Superior to a CNJ with one of the lightnings.

Unless you are trying to do something very very specific for the scenario WHM is better. Also stop referencing GLD and PUG skills like you need CNJ for it. WHM picks up those two classes.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

If this were in fact true, please explain why people DID NOT stack White Mages or Conjurers to do most endgame content but DID stack Black Mages for a fair bit of it. And all you are all proving is that you don't know how to use classes well. Did it ever occur to you that there are times when you don't even need regen to heal? That Stoneskin and and Second Wind and Sentinel (abilities a THM can use as well by the way) are more than enough to keep you happy and healthy, and in these situations (albeit not typical party play) CNJ is a better choice than WHM). In these cases, you can gain more damage output with CNJ over WHM. Period.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_RKPMks6w

Stacked WHMs on moogle, 8 min kill.

For 15 min DH runs, it is faster to stack CNJ/WHM due to Aero (for ogre specifically).

I am not saying CNJ/WHM can't do damage, but the elements will indeed be gimped if they need to balance a healing & nuking job with a flat out nuker.

WHM shouldn't have the same potential a BLM does, and while it is true that they don't on most end game content, they still tie up 50% of the "elemental tree", hence gimping those elements with the requirement of having party healing abilities tied in with DD.

Kinsey - I will call it a Wheel all I like, people including yourself know what I have been referring to, so it's just a weak pry at a pathetic argument about semantics.

Regardless how the "elemental wheel" (come at me) is constructed, currently the BLM line of spells are more flexible and powerful then those on the WHM skill set.

Once again if you read my OP, and following replies, you will notice that I am asking for ideas / discussion in order to fix the current issue of a lack luster elemental wheel, and a boring job (BLM), and I am yet to actually see ideas or compromises that would effectively improve the current issue.

You throw my opinion back in my face, and I will continue to throw yours. Once you come up with a compromise that would improve the issue that is stated in the OP (BLM being boring, lack of elemental affinity), I will take your posts with a grain of salt.

When you have some creative input, then I will listen.

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Originally Posted by Klive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_RKPMks6w

Stacked WHMs on moogle, 8 min kill.

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what exactly are you trying to prove here?

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

please explain why people DID NOT stack White Mages or Conjurers to do most endgame content but DID stack Black Mages for a fair bit of it.

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Originally Posted by fusional

what exactly are you trying to prove here?

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Nothing actually. This thread is going in circles.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Once again if you read my OP, and following replies, you will notice that I am asking for ideas / discussion in order to fix the current issue of a lack luster elemental wheel, and a boring job (BLM), and I am yet to actually see ideas or compromises that would effectively improve the current issue.

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We read your OP. In fact, we've read it a million times. This thread is the same as the one that came before it, and we still disagree with it. You are not a special snowflake.

Lol I'm surprised of those so against the idea on this.

WHM cannot be main DD but yet WHM has DD spells - so SE has to keep the wheel down on EG content, as there is no way i'd be ok for the WHM DDing over the BLM and when you use the wheel that would happen (and it appears SE agrees since nothing EG is really weak to stone, or any element really).

So rather Altena said hey why not give them a DD spell that wont be a problem. And everyone is raging at original lore even though Yoshida has already retconed the hell out of lore.. No such thing as original lore now lol.

Beyond that there were also suggestions to:

- Remove non white magic spells from white mage, but leave it in CNJ (and give White mage white magic DD)
- Leave the DD elemental spells with white mage but also give it to black mage (so black mage could still out DD white mage)