Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

Pld was not used because of the speedrun elements in everything. In terms of hate generation and negating dmg pld was better in most events in a skilled players hands.

For most boss fights I see pld as being superior tank when you remove the requirement of finishing the dungeons in 17/25mins.

War is better for non-bosses when killing multiple things comes into play. But it trades def for the dmg. Makes the fight more risky if something goes abnormally. Ask your whms you is easier to keep alive if you have any doubts.

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Originally Posted by Reika

You never did it with one party?

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One party? Yes. PLD > WHM > fill the rest with drg's / mnk's ... :/

I didnt know ppl lets WAR tank at 17min CC run, AV was the only place where WAR is viable even then PLD can do 17min run just fine.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

For most boss fights I see pld as being superior tank when you remove the requirement of finishing the dungeons in 17/25mins.

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PLD holds better hate. DD's can go harder. Fight ends quicker. The watery hate that WAR provides means everyone in the party has to hold back. The higher the #1 person on the hate list is, the more damage your whole party can do. IMHO

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I didnt know ppl lets WAR tank at 17min CC run, AV was the only place where WAR is viable even then PLD can do 17min run just fine.

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Eh, pretty much beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I didnt know ppl lets WAR tank at 17min CC run, AV was the only place where WAR is viable even then PLD can do 17min run just fine.

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this, 100%

and once we made the switch from war to pld it enabled us to burn down CC and MM that much faster, so our times actually improved

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Originally Posted by Altena

My question about these dungeons you are talking about - how many players are in there? If we are talking 12+ players then yes I am all for seeing 2 tanks in there for more complex battle content.. However for now, I don't see a "2 tank" scenario fitting in with the typical content we have currently seen in XIV both in 1.0 and the alpha videos.

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10 man runs. 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 DPS.

Scaling it down to 8-man you can have it be 2 tanks, 2 healers, a bard and 3 DPS. Could change that to 4 DPS if buffs become a little more spread out to not make the bard mandatory (assuming mages are given MP refund mechanics or additional help to restore MP in the middle of a fight).

Having an 8-man boss fight requiring two tanks is not much of a stretch, really.

ARR is going to have 24m raids however. Yoshida called the dungeons 'raids' at one point, but to me they were always just party dungeons and 1.0 had no real raids.

Also in WoW, which duelle is talking about, they did away with the 'this is aoe tank and this is boss tank' after burning crusade. PLD was the aoe tank, warrior or druid were main boss tanks, druid having stupidly high HP but lost it quicker because it couldnt block or parry, only dodge. After Wrath launched, they all changed to perform any tanking task, in their own way. However, it was still better not have the same class as both tanks. The game also had 25m versions of raids which saw less since 10m is easier to form and offered most of the same loot, just less of it.

I just hope they rev up the Paladin. It was my favorite Class in 1.0. But lesbionest. Paladan was pretty sucky in 1.0. It was pretty much a warrior but not nearly as good. I can't count how many times in forming a party or joining a party where everyone was like, "A paladin sounds like a good idea!" Then we go, "Well sometimes doing crack sounds like a good idea then I think, better not."

anyone claiming paladin was a bad tank or inferior to warrior after the update in march or april or whenever it was, and especially after the nerf to steel cyclone... is wrong

just flat out wrong.

stop perpetuating the myth.

They need to give PLD a DEF upgrade like mad and more MP.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

For version 2.0, the roles of each class/job will not change; however, there is a chance that the concepts change. Based on this we will be working to revamp them so that the actions will fit each concept accordingly.

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Source

I believe in the new version it won't matter which one you bring, PLD or WAR, just whoever can tank well. We will have 24-man raids, so it wouldn't surprise me if the tanks were a mix of both.

everyone has opinions of what pld needs and doesn't need which is based off what we had in 1.0, we can't really judge pld until we see it in action in 2.0 how much it changed or not. Some ppl had no problem using pld and used it effectively and some ppl had problems with pld and couldn't use it effectively. their are many things we could do to help out pld like some have said in this thread and others like it, boost def, hp, better enmity plus abilities, aoe skills, more dmg etc etc.

i for one would like to see pld thrive in ARR but how about boosting its ability to block considering it has a shield why not make it effective and use it alot more rather then being a paperweight or some thing on your arm. For that matter how about pld can parry also, heck maybe SE can allow pld shield to be included in its auto attack. the list can go on & on of how to fix pld but until beta hits in 2 weeks we can then see what SE has in store for the new pld at that time we can give constructive criticism and feedback.

Us stating what pld was in 1.0 and then using that to judge what it should be in ARR or just speculating what it will be is kinda pointless, only thing which we can actually do now is state the bad things pld had in 1.0 and give our concerns for SE so we don't end up with the same problems come ARR.

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Originally Posted by FedeMax

At the end everything I did it was Warrior. Every dungeon it was ask for a warrior, Garuda, King Moogle, Ifrit was ask for a warrior. The only battle I did not see a warrior all the time maybe 50/50 was Raven. The only one for sure that was ask for a Paladin that I ever did was Hamlet Defense since Paladin could heal himself.

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My LS did speed runs with whatever our tank felt like playing..war or pld didnt matter they were both fine. Hard mode darnus was PLD as was ifrit extreme...PLD was quite good actually and more fun to play than war imo. war was definately not the end all be all of tanking.

Also if you had good crowd control from blms and drgs it didnt matter if you had a pld cause half the time wars didnt even get a steel cyclone off before the groups were dead. And pld aoe flash was nice for grabbing groups.

I think the reason people disliked PLD and thought WAR was better is because they were uninformed about how certain enmity abilities worked. Once our PLD learned how to use them right we could nuke nonstop on BLM without a worry of pulling hate. Just one of those cases where SE wants us to figure it out on our own.

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Originally Posted by fusional

anyone claiming paladin was a bad tank or inferior to warrior after the update in march or april or whenever it was, and especially after the nerf to steel cyclone... is wrong

just flat out wrong.

stop perpetuating the myth.

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This so much. It's as if people played warrior for 5 minutes when it was released with the other jobs and created their opinion based on that. After the SC nerf and the PLD tweak in April, PLD was superior for most end-game fights.

It's like people missed out on the last 8 months of 1.0's existence. CC 17 minute was infinitely easier at Chimera with PLD, Ifrit Extreme was done with a paladin and Van Darnus hard was done with a Paladin. (I haven't even seen a Raven Nevermore run done with a warrior tank). Garuda was easier with a Paladin as well.

Really the only end-game situation that warranted a warrior was a AV 17 minute run and even then it really came down to preference.

The thing that pisses me off about a thread like this is that the myriad voices of the uninformed are drowning out those who actually participated in the actual end-game content and are crying for changes to PLD. The fact of the matter is if PLD were/was buffed anymore nobody would have used warrior for anything except farming trash in Nat.

Logged in on the forum just to like / say i agree with the OP 110%

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

This so much. It's as if people played warrior for 5 minutes when it was released with the other jobs and created their opinion based on that. After the SC nerf and the PLD tweak in April, PLD was superior for most end-game fights.

It's like people missed out on the last 8 months of 1.0's existence. CC 17 minute was infinitely easier at Chimera with PLD, Ifrit Extreme was done with a paladin and Van Darnus hard was done with a Paladin. (I haven't even seen a Raven Nevermore run done with a warrior tank). Garuda was easier with a Paladin as well.

Really the only end-game situation that warranted a warrior was a AV 17 minute run and even then it really came down to preference.

The thing that pisses me off about a thread like this is that the myriad voices of the uninformed are drowning out those who actually participated in the actual end-game content and are crying for changes to PLD. The fact of the matter is if PLD were/was buffed anymore nobody would have used warrior for anything except farming trash in Nat.

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This. So much this.


I have shared the same sentiments in the beginnings of this thread.


Also- Altena/ Reika....


Having been a PLD main and done -every- fight in this game, Altena is correct in all of her assertions.

Let's compare AOE abilities WAR vs. PLD




WAR: Steel Cyclone, Whirlwind.

PLD: Hallowed Ground, Cure, Holy Succor, War Drum, Flash, Rampart.



I personally preffered to go WAR until after we killed princess, Princess would die before the guard could spawn, and sometimes died before the marshal even got there if spawn was far enough away.

Just personal preference though.

http://youtu.be/eTsfKI_C9ZI

mute the music if it bothers you, but pay close attention to what kind of tank we have (hint: paladin) and to the color of my aggro bar as the fight progresses. from 2:20 on it goes red and stays red for the entire rest of the fight- and as you can see i don't hold back whatsoever.

why is this important? because this absolutely never would have been possible with a warrior tank.

first of all, we'd need quite a lot more healing to keep up a warrior tank- forcing us to swap out a dragoon to bring an extra whm and also calling on the bard to help heal as well. the more bard needs to support, the less attention they can pay to shooting meteors and dpsing darnus. this means we'd likely have to swap yet another dragoon for a 2nd bard or 2nd blackmage.

this means a sub-10 minute kill would have been impossible.

second, it also means i would have pulled hate and kept it until i died. (and if any dragoon dies, a sub-10min kill is impossible.) warrior just does not have the snap aggro tools paladin does, so paladin will reach the enmity ceiling faster and stay there more easily.

and yet the claim that keeps getting repeated is that paladin was bad, underpowered, inferior to warrior, unwanted in endgame etc. so tell me how there's anything wrong with paladin in endgame when paladin is without a doubt the only tank capable of holding aggro in this situation? and while we're at it, where are all the videos of people beating ifrit extreme with a warrior tank if warrior was so much better? if paladin is bad and unwanted, why did everyone use it in the two most difficult fights in FFXIV?

i get that not everyone played all the way to the end, or they played more casually and therefore experienced mostly easier content, and in their experience people preferred warrior for easier content. i get that not everyone gave paladin a chance after the buffs (&nerf to SC), and that not everyone had an opportunity to test both tanks in the most rigid, unforgiving fights in the game...

...but at least frame your opinion within that context.

the bottom line is that paladin was already incredibly strong and hands down the superior endgame tank at the end of 1.0, and yet if you keep crying for more buffs and square actually listens to you- all it will serve to do is make the warrior class *completely* irrelevant and ineffectual in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

This so much. It's as if people played warrior for 5 minutes when it was released with the other jobs and created their opinion based on that. After the SC nerf and the PLD tweak in April, PLD was superior for most end-game fights.

It's like people missed out on the last 8 months of 1.0's existence. CC 17 minute was infinitely easier at Chimera with PLD, Ifrit Extreme was done with a paladin and Van Darnus hard was done with a Paladin. (I haven't even seen a Raven Nevermore run done with a warrior tank). Garuda was easier with a Paladin as well.

Really the only end-game situation that warranted a warrior was a AV 17 minute run and even then it really came down to preference.

The thing that pisses me off about a thread like this is that the myriad voices of the uninformed are drowning out those who actually participated in the actual end-game content and are crying for changes to PLD. The fact of the matter is if PLD were/was buffed anymore nobody would have used warrior for anything except farming trash in Nat.

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That is 3 content where PLD shines and only on the bosses, but for everything else, WAR.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

That is 3 content where PLD shines and only on the bosses, but for everything else, WAR.

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so when paladin shines on anything with a modicum of difficulty, and warrior is in actuality only used more for easier content- how is this really an argument against paladin? in pre-abyssea FFXI warriors and sams and monks tanked easy stuff all the time.

in virtually any MMO, whenever you have content that doesn't require a lot of healing people will try to get away with using fewer and fewer defensively-tuned classes to squeeze in more dps for faster kills. that's life.

you guys can't see the forest for the trees.

the problem isn't paladin, it's a lack of content which favors or requires it. (ie: challenging stuff)

maybe it also related to playstyle

to play PLD, it means that you need to take attention at mitigating damage and holding hate also, while using warrior, what you need to do is mostly DPS. hence it looks like playing WAR as tank is easier.

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Originally Posted by fusional

so when paladin shines on anything with a modicum of difficulty, and warrior is in actuality only used more for easier content- how is this really an argument against paladin? in pre-abyssea FFXI warriors and sams and monks tanked easy stuff all the time.

in virtually any MMO, whenever you have content that doesn't require a lot of healing people will try to get away with using fewer and fewer defensively-tuned classes to squeeze in more dps for faster kills. that's life.

you guys can't see the forest for the trees.

the problem isn't paladin, it's a lack of content which favors or requires it. (ie: challenging stuff)

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I agree with your last sentence but, you're not seeing the big picture. PLD main and only role is tanking. In my opinion even if its the most easiest to hardest of things, PLD should be first choice for any situation. It is clearly not like that.

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Originally Posted by Aion

maybe it also related to playstyle

to play PLD, it means that you need to take attention at mitigating damage and holding hate also, while using warrior, what you need to do is mostly DPS. hence it looks like playing WAR as tank is easier.

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optimizing dps through a proper WS rotation is also essential to holding hate as PLD

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Originally Posted by Andrien

In my opinion even if its the most easiest to hardest of things, PLD should be first choice for any situation. It is clearly not like that.

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why? because it's paladin? is it the only tank in the game? no. so if it isn't the only tank in the game, why should it be preferred in every situation? if it's preferred in every situation, why bother having any other tanks? it's redundant.

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Originally Posted by fusional

why? because it's paladin? is it the only tank in the game? no. so if it isn't the only tank in the game, why should it be preferred in every situation? if it's preferred in every situation, why bother having any other tanks? it's redundant.

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Did you bother to read that piece fact in my post, or just want to net pick on my opinion?

I'll word it differently. Since PLD job is good at one thing only which is tanking, it should be first choice for a PT to fill in that role. Not just shine in a select few contents.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Did you bother to read that piece fact in my post, or just want to net pick on my opinion?

I'll word it differently. Since PLD job is good at one thing only which is tanking, it should be first choice for a PT to fill in that role. Not just shine in a select few contents.

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and i'll repeat myself. if one job is always first choice for all content, why have any other jobs? if black mage is first choice for dps in all situations, why have dragoon or monk at all? what's the point in giving people options if the choice is only illusory?

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Originally Posted by fusional

and i'll repeat myself. if one job is always first choice for all content, why have any other jobs? if black mage is first choice for dps in all situations, why have dragoon or monk at all? what's the point in giving people options if the choice is only illusory?

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The fact is Warrior is good at DPS as well as Tanking. While Paladin is only good for one thing, tanking. So Warrior can fit variety of roles while Paladin only has one.

I guess that's why I never liked Hybrid classes in mmorpgs, they always step foot on other classes and make things unbalanced. Nothing is wrong with variety of tanks but if a hybrid class can be chosen over another class thats sole role is IS to be a tank, something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by xXHalloweenTrixXx

The fact is Warrior is good at DPS as well as Tanking. While Paladin is only good for one thing, tanking. So Warrior can fit variety of roles while Paladin only has one.

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Wrong, that's an opinion not a fact. The true fact is WAR is "ok" at DPS and "ok" at Tanking easier content. While PLD is *fantastic* at tanking EG content.

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I guess that's why I never liked Hybrid classes in mmorpgs, they always step foot on other classes and make things unbalanced. Nothing is wrong with variety of tanks but if a hybrid class can be chosen over another class thats sole role is IS to be a tank, something is wrong.

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Then you can look at it on the other side of the foot. They don't specialise in anything specific so they are never in high demand. Those who enjoy playing them don't get to play them very often in content that matters when other jobs are more "optimal" at this. This brings out the "other jobs do it better, so why use it?" mentality.

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To be honest I think we will see even less WAR's in dungeons come 2.0, as PLD is the preferred / better tank in EG content, and rumour has it switching jobs in a dungeon is not going to be possible.. Unless there is a huge change in battle mechanics, or a change of job description for WAR (either make it a blood tank or a heavy DPS) then I can't see them being useful for much aside from farming and EXP parties unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by xXHalloweenTrixXx

The fact is Warrior is good at DPS as well as Tanking. While Paladin is only good for one thing, tanking. So Warrior can fit variety of roles while Paladin only has one.

I guess that's why I never liked Hybrid classes in mmorpgs, they always step foot on other classes and make things unbalanced. Nothing is wrong with variety of tanks but if a hybrid class can be chosen over another class thats sole role is IS to be a tank, something is wrong.

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All it would take to even things out is decide where to take WAR and go from there. If you make it a pure DPS then introduce another tank class to fill the spot left vacant by WAR. If you want it to tank then you have to adjust WAR, PLD or both so that one can stand in for the other without creating a fuss when putting a group together.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and i'll repeat myself. if one job is always first choice for all content, why have any other jobs? if black mage is first choice for dps in all situations, why have dragoon or monk at all? what's the point in giving people options if the choice is only illusory?

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You still don't understand, and you're missing the point. I'll give you a scenario this time.. If you cant find a PLD, then you have a second choice. WAR, a good backup tank that has the ability to DD.

Your analogy for other DD jobs is not a valid point either. Each of them plays differently. MNK has elemental attacks, and DRG has potent critical hit rates. BLM has the ability to DD and sleep stuff, but their DEF sucks and they're limited to MP and a small amount of HP. I shouldn't have to be explaining all this.

I'm not going to speculate about 2.0 because I don't know how jobs are going to change. However from my experience of 1.0 whatever a PLD can do, a WAR can do it better. Except for a select few contents.

So, I beg the question. What else is PLD good for? What about Warrior? Make a comparison.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

However from my experience of 1.0 whatever a PLD can do, a WAR can do it better. Except for a select few contents.

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All of your DD's must suck. But your sig is hilarious so I have to give you props for that.

I'm over trying to convince people living in Feb 2012 that WAR is no match for a good PLD.

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Originally Posted by Altena

All of your DD's must suck. But your sig is hilarious so I have to give you props for that.

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I made it myself. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I made it myself. :cool:

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It is totally unrelated but for some dumb strange reason it reminds me of "The Hangover"...

PLD > WAR

I have nothing else to contribute.

Final Fantasy is a game with more than one tank. Love it or hate it… it is what it is.

WAR was a DPS … Until it went head to head with REAL DPS'.

It's skill set was not meant to up its damage but to hold hate.

Maybe we should start looking at the "ROLE" we want to fill instead of just the "JOB" we want to play. If you love the role of tank, then level both and use the best tools at your disposal. (Many of you have EVERY job to 50 anyways.)

At the end of the day, WAR & PLD are tanks. PLD does not shine in every situation, that's fine. Neither does WAR. Don't make it seem as if there can be only one tank or your usefulness has diminished… some of you sound like 2004. Stop being stingy, no one is taking your toys away.

It's my opinion that, the ability to solo 'til 50 has negatively affected players ability to do their job in a group setting. We are literally learning how to play while doing endgame content (where we should KNOW our Jobs/Roles). With all the abilities that a PLD has, how is it not (as some are suggesting) able to hold hate effectively or on par with WAR? I'm sure its more than an in-game design and mechanical flaw. We don't know whether to Provoke first - or - attack, then Provoke - or - Rampart when some are close - but - Sentinel when the thing does something - or - does Cure equal hate - or - even Cure timing… At the end of the day, learn your Job.

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Originally Posted by alkhemyXIII

It's my opinion that, the ability to solo 'til 50 has negatively affected players ability to do their job in a group setting. We are literally learning how to play while doing endgame content (where we should KNOW our Jobs/Roles). With all the abilities that a PLD has, how is it not (as some are suggesting) able to hold hate effectively or on par with WAR? I'm sure its more than an in-game design and mechanical flaw. We don't know whether to Provoke first - or - attack, then Provoke - or - Rampart when some are close - but - Sentinel when the thing does something - or - does Cure equal hate - or - even Cure timing… At the end of the day, learn your Job.

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Gotta agree with this paragraph here. And I have to confess I have fallen victim to this myself. I really started playing FFXIV about a couple years ago, right around the time we had our son and I became a father for the first time. I instantly became a casual gamer lol. I only had a an hour or so to play each night, and I gotta admit, I spent that hour soloing, because it was better than wasting time lfg, or joining a pt, getting to camp, and then saying after a half hour "gotta find a rep." But it sucked when I got to situations where I needed a party. I had no idea how to function. I was too used to soloing. And as a result, I'm sure I wasn't fulfilling my proper role in the party.

Moral of the story, I learned my lesson. In 2.0, even if it's duo'ing or small parties with quests and leves, it's better to spend the time finding people to play with, even if it means leveling at a slower rate. Or at least make the effort to do that occasionally on your road to the top. At least if you're partying with even one other person you're learning how to rely on each other, and learning what abilities you have that can help your party.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

You still don't understand, and you're missing the point. I'll give you a scenario this time.. If you cant find a PLD, then you have a second choice. WAR, a good backup tank that has the ability to DD.

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I wouldn't trust a WAR tank who does not also have PLD capped.

PLD can do damage in 1.0. If you don't remember they actually gave PLD a damage boost to some weapon skills. They weren't top DPS obviously but it wasn't like XI where you were in tank gear and did pretty much 0 damage.

You have to realize what kind of tank WAR was too. At least they way my LS used it. If we used it at all. For spirit bonding weapons. They were great for gathering tons of mobs and dropping a nice AoE to hold hate while BLMs dropped firagas without pulling hate. Other than that we used PLD on all fights and raids cause its the boss! Oh wait we used it on Ifrit X too for middle nail damage. WAR was sick for farming too. You could go nonstop without resting HP. It kinda felt hax in some ways. Get a pile of mobs and almost be dead then drop a steel cyclone and kill them all while healing HP to 100%.

Use your creativity to make a class/job useful for you. Who cares whats you think is "best" for the situation if you have fun and accomplish what you set out to do?

/meme/
I dont always EG

But when I do I always choose PLD
/meme/

PLD is the EG tank, but he is sad anywhere else in game. Buff PLD out of EG content, characters shouldn't be designed into one content type. At least thats what I think.

Then look at the WAR, yes he can do -some- EG content, a lot of times stretching his play style like making a THM main healer.. he isn't an efficient choice except for one event. I hope to see WAR not being defined as a hybrid (because hybrids are horrible to balance classes and will be an issue for all time lol) and either make him "good" dps or "ok" dps and "good" tanking like how the PLD is and I hope the PLD becomes (PLD already good tanking for bosses but is pretty sad else where, WAR is meh EG tank at best but isnt so sad else where like Materia Farming).

PLD doesnt need a direct DPS boost but helping the party out is good enough too like WoW PLD, just enough that you aren't sad to see him in your grind party lol. You dont need a PLD to tank trash world mobs so he needs other options and formats (imo).

Yeah about warrior dps..........on sustained fights paladin started to outpace it which is again pretty much all end-game fights. Plus, if you're forced to bring a warrior along for DPS......well I don't know what to tell you. It's not like there was a lot of content anyway. Outside of 17 minute runs, Ifrit Extreme and Raven Nevermore and Garuda there wasn't really much you could do as that was the extent of the end-game content. Hell even regular mode Ifrit was faster and easier with a paladin. Don't forget that Paladin also has a defense down weapon skill which made everything easier for all the DPS.

I just don't understand the calls for a further buff. It's as if the paladins saw warriors farming crap in the strongholds and are upset that they can't do that as well. Paladin was the best tank as of the closure of XIV. Warrior was an ok tank and the worst dps option in the game.

Also lol at trash tanking. Seriously. Giving a class that role with how fast everything died in 1.0 was absolutely useless. So trying to justify any potential changes by saying, "Warrior can be a aoe tank," is flawed. Unless 2.0 has situations where trash is actually dangerous this would make warrior even more useless. Besides, most AoE tanking took on the form of kiting. Paladin has multi-flash so they can do that to.

Besides, I think it was cool that we had a hybrid option in warrior. It allowed us to solo things at a decent speed without falling apart in seconds. Not every single class has to do one thing and one thing only. I'm positive half the people posting in this thread are XI paladins who felt neglected and abused due to Ninja and Warrior tanks in XI and are terrified that it might happen again in XIV 2.0.

Look, I'm all for balance when necessary but there is no absolutely no reason to buff Paladin further. So far I have yet to see anybody but Fusional post actual data. All I have heard in this thread from people who support this is just empty statements. Where is the data and proof? In what content? If you can't answer that your opinion holds little weight.

I'd be happy to play a PLD in a group with a WAR tanking if I could dual wield swords and play DD ...that would be balance :D