Yoshi suggests playing WOW for a year

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Fixed. Don't even fucking try telling me that I'm wrong either. Because you try being a Dragoon before Abyssea. Try being a Red Mage after Abyssea. Try doing content in FFXI now without having an Empyrean. Hell, try shouting for assistance on a mission or a quest. At least in XIV you'll get more than one person to try to join you.

If FFXIV is full of elitism and piss poor attitudes, XI is 10x worse.

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Ever notice how people making groups demand everyone to have a relic/emperian but then a lot of the times they don't have one themselves because they are lazy.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yes we know this will essentially be a WoW "clone" in the same sense that FFXI was an EQ "clone", however unlike XI, XIV will be directly taking the base systems that WoW uses that everyone else decides to mimic.

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Soooo.. Word has begun to slip out from Alpha, I am not personally in it so I don't actually know, and it seems the verdict is; WoW Clone.

Full on WoW Clone.

Not going to site links. Don't really want to get people in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Soooo.. Word has begun to slip out from Alpha, I am not personally in it so I don't actually know, and it seems the verdict is; WoW Clone.

Full on WoW Clone.

Not going to site links. Don't really want to get people in trouble.

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Yes! Sexy dances on top of tents!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2u8i4jc.jpg

CANNOT WAIT!!!

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Soooo.. Word has begun to slip out from Alpha, I am not personally in it so I don't actually know, and it seems the verdict is; WoW Clone.

Full on WoW Clone.

Not going to site links. Don't really want to get people in trouble.

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BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

How many more Wow clones does the world need??? People who like wow play wow, so why CLONE IT?

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Yes! Sexy dances on top of tents!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2u8i4jc.jpg

CANNOT WAIT!!!

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Ah! It's so garish!

I hope I can spec as Tank on Dark Knight when they release it then.....

I'll spec DPS on Paladin.

Okay, I'll be happy if we don't copy this.
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i...-2krTqt6-L.jpg

I'm never happy.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Soooo.. Word has begun to slip out from Alpha, I am not personally in it so I don't actually know, and it seems the verdict is; WoW Clone.

Full on WoW Clone.

Not going to site links. Don't really want to get people in trouble.

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http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-knpCsUjX1L...ain-picard.jpg

I feel bad for SE. It is a very "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." situation going on here. If they give you FFXI with a new world and shiny graphics, people complain it is a "FFXI clone" with "Not catering to casuals".

Then again, it isn't fair to call out the community on this, because only 3% of players actively use the forums (By last results at least). I certainly don't hear complaints from people around me. A lot I know say "Just fix the game.".

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Okay, I'll be happy if we don't copy this.
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i...-2krTqt6-L.jpg

I'm never happy.

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Yeah, standing around in the same place for hours at a time doing the exact same thing is so much better. Quest hubs are a good thing, I can't for the life of me understand why people hate them so much.

I wonder how many people bitched and moaned about XI being an EQ clone, but eventually got over it.

I will not miss party sitting in one area and tank pulling one monster at a time for slow boring combat either, ever.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I wonder how many people bitched and moaned about XI being an EQ clone, but eventually got over it.

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I didn't know FFXI was an EQ clone and didn't care.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I will not miss party sitting in one area and tank pulling one monster at a time for slow boring combat either, ever.

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Me too, I would love if FFXIV is like PSO where you kill enemies for xp before a boss for big xp.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Yeah, standing around in the same place for hours at a time doing the exact same thing is so much better. Quest hubs are a good thing, I can't for the life of me understand why people hate them so much.

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You misunderstand. I'm not exactly against quest hubs. I'm against bureaucratic systematized progression and the kill 10 X quests. I like the sound of that WoW quest you mentioned earlier in another thread. The one about sneaking around. But so many other MMO's take the same "influence" from WoW and end up doing this maneuver over and over instead of making quests interesting and allowing for more organic world based progression with high demand for community based play.

And so many other MMO's have these "standard features" already, I'm concerned that the games originality will be obscured by the fact and like those many other MMO's, fade into the void. Themepark MMO's are a dime a dozen these days and it's pretty clear that customers aren't all that interested beyond initial hype. Even when Star Wars added a strong narrative it wasn't enough to hold interest for terribly long. That being said the 'failure' of that game could also stem from a lack of endgame content and abysmal customer support than just being the same thing with more new features and a coat of Well Recognized and Popular Theme Paint.

I just think they could have explored the sandbox idea more instead of scrapping it for the 'sure thing'. And who knows, maybe it won't be a complete abandonment of those ideas either. I'm more than willing to try the game out first and see how I like it.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

You misunderstand. I'm not exactly against quest hubs. I'm against bureaucratic systematized progression and the kill 10 X quests. I like the sound of that WoW quest you mentioned earlier in another thread. The one about sneaking around. But so many other MMO's take the same "influence" from WoW and end up doing this maneuver over and over instead of making quests interesting and allowing for more organic world based progression with high demand for community based play.

And so many other MMO's have these "standard features" already, I'm concerned that the games originality will be obscured by the fact and like those many other MMO's, fade into obscurity. Themepark MMO's are a dime a dozen these days and it's pretty clear that customers aren't all that interested beyond initial hype. Even when Star Wars added a strong narrative it wasn't enough to hold interest for terribly long. That being said the 'failure' of that game could also stem from a lack of endgame content and abysmal customer support than just being the same thing with more new features and a coat of Well Recognized and Popular Theme Paint.

I just think they could have explored the sandbox idea more instead of scrapping it for the 'sure thing'. And who knows, maybe it won't be a complete abandonment of those ideas either. I'm more than willing to try the game out first and see how I like it.

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I think SE would do better, as quests in 1.0 already featured you doing different things than just killing X amount of things then returning. Like dancing around in a subligar at the docks to make fish happy.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I think SE would do better, as quests in 1.0 already featured you doing different things than just killing X amount of things then returning. Like dancing around in a subligar at the docks to make fish happy.

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I think I missed that one. I'm just remembering all those terribly dull guildleves.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

You misunderstand. I'm not exactly against quest hubs. I'm against bureaucratic systematized progression and the kill 10 X quests. I like the sound of that WoW quest you mentioned earlier in another thread. The one about sneaking around. But so many other MMO's take the same "influence" from WoW and end up doing this maneuver over and over instead of making quests interesting and allowing for more organic world based progression with high demand for community based play.

And so many other MMO's have these "standard features" already, I'm concerned that the games originality will be obscured by the fact and like those many other MMO's, fade into obscurity. Themepark MMO's are a dime a dozen these days and it's pretty clear that customers aren't all that interested beyond initial hype. Even when Star Wars added a strong narrative it wasn't enough to hold interest for terribly long. That being said the 'failure' of that game could also stem from a lack of endgame content and abysmal customer support than just being the same thing with more new features and a coat of Well Recognized and Popular Theme Paint.

I just think they could have explored the sandbox idea more instead of scrapping it for the 'sure thing'. And who knows, maybe it won't be a complete abandonment of those ideas either. I'm more than willing to try the game out first and see how I like it.

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Even that quest I mentioned, it still had the standard "quest archetype."

-Gather 10 leaves
-Gather 10 piles of fox poop (yes, lol, fox poop!)
-Kill 10 dudes to get some item
-Get key from main boss
-Funny fifth thing

The thing is, it's how it's given to us that makes it interesting. The thing I absolutely love about World of Warcraft over Final Fantasy XI/XIV is the feeling that you aren't just immediately the hero of the universe. You're always a small cog in a small thing, that ultimately leads up to something much bigger. The quest I mention was basically me rescuing a bunch of dudes from the Horde, who then want to get revenge, so we destroy their stuff. At the end, a dragon is summoned, and everyone but me died. I got to go on and give the bad news that the entire team didn't make it.

I enjoy that MUCH more than what we had in Final Fantasy XIV. You're a guy with a power like everyone else. Snore.

I really hope the questing system in A Realm Reborn makes me have the feeling I do in World of Warcraft. That this world isn't just one gigantic disaster. Having smaller quests you can get involved in is nice. We had stuff like that with the class quests in 1.0, but those were so spread out, and hardly worth the effort unless you were into story. I want the entire game to play out like I'm a nobody working my way to the top, not just a nobody who is already there.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Even that quest I mentioned, it still had the standard "quest archetype."

-Gather 10 leaves
-Gather 10 piles of fox poop (yes, lol, fox poop!)
-Kill 10 dudes to get some item
-Get key from main boss
-Funny fifth thing

The thing is, it's how it's given to us that makes it interesting. The thing I absolutely love about World of Warcraft over Final Fantasy XI/XIV is the feeling that you aren't just immediately the hero of the universe. You're always a small cog in a small thing, that ultimately leads up to something much bigger. The quest I mention was basically me rescuing a bunch of dudes from the Horde, who then want to get revenge, so we destroy their stuff. At the end, a dragon is summoned, and everyone but me died. I got to go on and give the bad news that the entire team didn't make it.

I enjoy that MUCH more than what we had in Final Fantasy XIV. You're a guy with a power like everyone else. Snore.

I really hope the questing system in A Realm Reborn makes me have the feeling I do in World of Warcraft. That this world isn't just one gigantic disaster. Having smaller quests you can get involved in is nice. We had stuff like that with the class quests in 1.0, but those were so spread out, and hardly worth the effort unless you were into story. I want the entire game to play out like I'm a nobody working my way to the top, not just a nobody who is already there.

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I'm all too happy to have quests with interesting plot and structure like that, but I'm not interested in following the mechanic structure over and over.
http://www.fanboys-online.com/comics...20Improved.jpg

Just using XI as an example sense I have an old guide next to me, there's all sort of kinds of quests. An escort quest where you can't let the guy see you. A quest where you have to dress up just right for a young fashionista. A quest where you have to run around town in a hat as advertisement for a shop. A quest where you have to sneak through a maze of high level enemies to get a sample of geyser water by letting yourself get sprayed by it.

Yeah keep the story and presentation interesting, but don't restrict the gameplay to a system you made specifically for it. Keep it open and dynamic.

As for being a part of the whole vs being an individual hero of the story. I guess that's really a matter of personal taste. I personally find the part of a whole thing to be kinda unfulfilling most of the time.


Bonus comic!
http://www.fanboys-online.com/comics...ighborhood.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Soooo.. Word has begun to slip out from Alpha, I am not personally in it so I don't actually know, and it seems the verdict is; WoW Clone.

Full on WoW Clone.

Not going to site links. Don't really want to get people in trouble.

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Its already too late for Naoki Yoshida.

Assuming this is true.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Fixed. Don't even fucking try telling me that I'm wrong either. Because you try being a Dragoon before Abyssea. Try being a Red Mage after Abyssea. Try doing content in FFXI now without having an Empyrean. Hell, try shouting for assistance on a mission or a quest. At least in XIV you'll get more than one person to try to join you.

If FFXIV is full of elitism and piss poor attitudes, XI is 10x worse.

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i was a Dragoon before abyssea and i have no idea what your on about. PLD/75 SAM/75 and DRG/67 were my three highest classes when i quit the game shortly after WoTG. not liking where the game was heading was one of my biggest reasons for leaving.

not all experiences are the same, ive heard that odin an ifrit were some of the worst servers community wise and very elitist.

XI was elitist out of necessity you either sucked or you didn't, people were more than happy to show you the ropes and if you did good invite you to an SEA/SKY/DYN LS, having the best possible gear actually meant something in XI and wasn't just a status symbol.

XiV is elitist by community, where your either Kissing your LS leaders ass or you find yourself out of the loop, hardly anyone will take time out of there little Clik for the new guy show him what needs to be done and for some odd reason people are obsessed with having only the best possible geared players for stats that have minimal returns.

XiV didn't have to be that Way, it was made that Way.

Aww, you two no fighting please. :3
I agree with you about the community in XI, they can be a dick. That's why I prefer to play with casual players than dull ass hardcore players who know everything. Conversation is the key to keep me enjoying the game no matter we win or lose.

I miss FFXI back in 2003 where we all were noobs and had some good laughs.

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

i was a Dragoon before abyssea and i have no idea what your on about. PLD/75 SAM/75 and DRG/67 were my three highest classes when i quit the game shortly after WoTG. not liking where the game was heading was one of my biggest reasons for leaving.

not all experiences are the same, ive heard that odin an ifrit were some of the worst servers community wise and very elitist.

XI was elitist out of necessity you either sucked or you didn't, people were more than happy to show you the ropes and if you did good invite you to an SEA/SKY/DYN LS, having the best possible gear actually meant something in XI and wasn't just a status symbol.

XiV is elitist by community, where your either Kissing your LS leaders ass or you find yourself out of the loop, hardly anyone will take time out of there little Clik for the new guy show him what needs to be done and for some odd reason people are obsessed with having only the best possible geared players for stats that have minimal returns.

XiV didn't have to be that Way, it was made that Way.

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Um, no. I had the exact opposite experience. And I was in Phoenix server playing as red mage and thief as my main jobs. The best possible gear was very much a status symbol, people put them in their lfg comments as advertising for both parties and linkshell invites.

And as far as kissing the ls leaders ass for content... there was a lot more chance for groups to form in xiv than xi. If you didn't get in the rush of pt lines finishing quests after an ffxi update, you were left with sitting for hours waiting for a pick up group, or hours more for that one whm that needs it. Dont get me started on the endgame community, which advocated 3rd party programs, and became 2am shouting matches with ls leaders thinking they were drill sergeants.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Um, no. I had the exact opposite experience. And I was in Phoenix server playing as red mage and thief as my main jobs. The best possible gear was very much a status symbol, people put them in their lfg comments as advertising for both parties and linkshell invites.

And as far as kissing the ls leaders ass for content... there was a lot more chance for groups to form in xiv than xi. If you didn't get in the rush of pt lines finishing quests after an ffxi update, you were left with sitting for hours waiting for a pick up group, or hours more for that one whm that needs it. Dont get me started on the endgame community, which advocated 3rd party programs, and became 2am shouting matches with ls leaders thinking they were drill sergeants.

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I was on Phoenix, but I don't remember it always being this drastic.

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Originally Posted by Morticous

I was on Phoenix, but I don't remember it always being this drastic.

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Al zhabi wasn't on fire every week. But some LSes were outright ridiculous.

I played wow before i don't plan to go back..its like...cheese!

Just from the new features mentioned, I think the levels already been exeeded

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

You seem awfully sure of yourself.

Have you played the game? Do you actually *know* how they've approached it? Have you been in design meetings or somehow privy to what they're doing?

Or, are you just hoping out loud, expressing what you hope it will be, or wont' be?

Are you trying to convince yourself, or us?

The more I learn about ARR, the more remarks I see Yoshi make about its gameplay and the way they're integrating things, the more concerned I become that they actually are making more like a WoW clone than not like one. However, that remains a concern because unlike you, Nox, I don't have a crystal ball allowing me to declare exactly what ARR will and won't be, nor the arrogance to believe I can divine it either way.

As for the remark made in another post about "SE doing the best thing by copying the most successful MMORPG out there, WoW"... that line of thinking has gottne a number of other MMO devs into trouble because they tried to do the same thing. With very few exceptions, the response from players has been "yeah... no. If we wanted to play WoW, we'd just play WoW".

I could understand the first several MMOs to come out in 2 or 3 years following WoW's release to fall into that trap since they only had WoW's success to go on. But you'd think that after that first wave of "us too" MMOs came out and performed underwhelmingly, that developers (and even investors and bean counters) would begin to see that, while it sounds great on paper, "copying WoW" isn't necessarily the best approach.

The only P2P MMO I can think of that has been heavily influenced by WoW and has managed to hold its own with a healthy subscriber base is Rift. All the others have either been reduced to insignificance, have gone the "f2P to save our asses" route, or closed up altogether.

In the meantime, the industry is slowly but steadily beginning to realize that relying on the WoW model of "quick progression through content-centric gameplay" is not sustainable anymore. Not in this time when people expect to be level cap in a week no matter how many levels there are, or how much other content there is up to that point. Content that takes a developer months to create will be completed in days, sometimes hours by gamers upon its release.

It's being realized, now, that for a MMO to maintain a sustainable flow of gameplay for players in the long-term, it has to have more "game systems" where the players become part of the content... and not just "content created by the developers/designers". That could be PvP, it could be housing or any kind of player/community-driven activity. It can be a political territory control system, etc.

It doesn't have to be a sandbox, but it does need a meaningful impact on the game and its players (in the context of the game world, etc). Grinding raids and instances for points to buy gear with is not a "system"... it's content designed to keep people playing "just a bit longer". It's not a system designed to keep people entertained indefinitely.

The goal is to have people playing the game continuously out of enjoyment for the gameplay itself. It should never be based on "how many carrots can we dangle in front of players and how long can we keep stringing them along, before they get sick of it?"

So, while I hope - sincerely hope - that I'm wrong, I'm beginning to get a really bad feeling about ARR. I think Yoshi might be swinging too far in the other direction, based on what he's revealed, and various "one off" remarks he's made in interviews and articles.

Just my two gil's worth.

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OMG finally someone understands!!! You hit the nail on the head!!

Yoshi has 20 years of Final Fantasy titles to use as a reference. Now there are systems in each of those games that could be used, could be improved upon useing systems from others games (other than minor tweeks). Yoshi is taking the easy route. Back in the day SE, squaresoft etc had the ability to make systems that work as well as creative. So the question is have they lost their creativity? Will they just look at other games and use those systems w/o putting much effort into makeing them thier own with major improvements on those systems? To be completely honest is Yoshi up to the challenge to make xiv so that it dosent lean to far left or right but is balance between the 2 or shall we say the difference player types?

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Yoshi has 20 years of Final Fantasy titles to use as a reference. Now there are systems in each of those games that could be used, could be improved upon useing systems from others games (other than minor tweeks). Yoshi is taking the easy route. Back in the day SE, squaresoft etc had the ability to make systems that work as well as creative. So the question is have they lost their creativity? Will they just look at other games and use those systems w/o putting much effort into makeing them thier own with major improvements on those systems? To be completely honest is Yoshi up to the challenge to make xiv so that it dosent lean to far left or right but is balance between the 2 or shall we say the difference player types?

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they kind of did improve the feature a lot, is not that easy sometime, is best to start it at first and continue to improve it.