FFXIVARR Lower stats for token items

Well I never said 3 pieces should drop every time, and the game isn't smart enough to see "Oh these people already have all these other pieces of gear, let me drop these other ones instead!" so there's still a bit of RNG working against you. I went 10 weeks in Karazhan in WoW trying to get my tier headpiece before seeing one drop, while the other ones dropped to the ground because nobody even needed them. Just an example, but there's still the possibility you can have that sort of luck where you see repeats of things when you don't actually need them.

Also, I don't want this to sound like a personal attack, but you keep bringing up this "item needs to be 'rare'" argument; all I can see is "I want to feel special because it took me x amount of runs to actually get this piece and everyone else should have the same luck as me." We know that we're going to see guaranteed drops and it should be a given that you're going to see the same things drop more often. This really takes away the idea that most items will be "rare".

They need to create scenarios like the relic weapon quest for things they want to be truly rare. Even that's not the best example because once you beat the RNG gods for hamlet, it came down to having a lot of money, time and a skilled group to do the dungeons/primal fights. But this quest did separate those truly dedicated to the cause from those who weren't. (like me)

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Also, I don't want this to sound like a personal attack, but you keep bringing up this "item needs to be 'rare'" argument; all I can see is "I want to feel special because it took me x amount of runs to actually get this piece and everyone else should have the same luck as me." We know that we're going to see guaranteed drops and it should be a given that you're going to see the same things drop more often. This really takes away the idea that most items will be "rare".

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i don't take it as an attack because you are correct to a point. i don't care it something takes 100 runs or a greatly skilled group to complete something to get the gear you want. the point is that like av/cc they are laughably easy and there is zero effort into completing the content so i can understand the low drop rates. it's the only thing that keeps things rare. i also look at the relic quest and realize how much effort it takes to get the relic with all the steps required so i can understand the 100% drop on relic at the end.

i'm not saying that every item should even have a low drop rate inside of easy content like av/cc, but i am saying the blue gear that is supposed to be rare then it should be a super low drop rate on easy content. if it's super hard content it should have a much higher drop rate.

i don't have all the darklight gear myself and i know i probably won't ever get it all, but i'm not going to sit and beg for them to give me a 100% drop rate on content that is this easy. the content is easy and the only way you can actually keep the gear coming from it is to have a low drop rate on the supposedly rare gear. otherwise they may as well take away the u/u and allow people to just sell it in the wards like the other green gear is because with a high drop rate it becomes just as valuable since everyone will have it in a matter of a few weeks anyways.

edit: also the reason i keep bringing up the "rare" is that's what the devs keep calling the gear drops saying that 2-3 rare drops each time.

when they say rare i actually think about the definition of rare and it is:

rare: coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions

if 2-3 things drop each run they are no longer rare, but are now quite common.

The topic was regarding the token system for lesser gear remember.

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Originally Posted by Rubyxiii

The topic was regarding the token system for lesser gear remember.

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yes, but you must also take into consideration that depending on the drop rate of the higher tier of gear will directly influence the need for the token system in the first place.

If we look back to XI's token systems, we have:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/As...ds_by_Category
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Therion_Ichor
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...Limbus#Rewards (Ancient Beastcoins)
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nyzul_I...ed_Area_Survey (Astraria)
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Al...s_for_Purchase (Also used to progress rank as level up is calculated by AN/EXP total earned during your evaluation period.)

If SE does anything remotely similar to any of these for lesser or rare or whatever gear, it'll keep content fresh while you make progress towards something without handing out or making it overly grinding depending on how they design cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i don't want to feel like even the rare items aren't rare at all.

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Absolutely agree. It really diminishes the game when you slap an easy button on everything you're doing. I still haven't recovered from the patches that made it possible to level all battle classes to 50 in 1/3 (or less) of the time it took most of us to get our first one. Not because I was jealous of new players achieving what I did with half the effort, but because all the challenge and satisfaction for reaching cap was lost. Don't do this to our loot too! :P

So yes, give us consolation gear worth equipping... make it semi-common as a reward (via tokens is fine) so we can feel compensated for our efforts... and keep our rare rewards rare so we still have something to work for and feel proud of when we get it.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

If you don't want a mudied carrot (despite the fact that they are grown in dirt) then you can eat rocks for all I care (metaphor for dark matter btw)

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So thats how you get your post total higher. Pointless insults. I wash my carrots, dont you?
LTTB

This seems like basic MMO practices to me. WoW already did a system where you could get normal tier armor through valor tokens, and get their HQ version by getting it in the raid. It works and the NQ piece itself is usually very powerful.

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Originally Posted by ARytheart

So thats how you get your post total higher. Pointless insults. I wash my carrots, dont you?
LTTB

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I EAT THEM RAWWW AND WRIGGLING...

Wait.. whatever.

Rep pweeezz talk to Yoshi about making an expensive full version by tokens. While it wont be the main way to obtain full versions at least this way even under the shittiest circumstances our time isn't wasted.

We understand that content has to be spammed otherwise it wont be rare but don't make the the spam against the RNG - that's why we asked for a new loot system in the first place.

(the weaker item versions sounds like a fast relief but depending on how weak they are it is just a useless bribe, and if they are too strong then two stat difference few will care to work for the HQ - unless that is the point... to deter people from wanting to work for the HQ as a way to make them rare)

I dont know. Sounds like just another time sink wrapped with new shiney paper. Cause im not gona settle for dimilight. Come on 2.0 so we can all touch it 1st hand.

Look at that a new medal. Yeeeeaaa.

Maybe the dropped gear is Uber Powerful but Rare/EX and Unmeldable...

...and maybe the "token-purchased" gear is weaker but is meldable to be equal to the Rare/Ex Drop?

Maybe that would be work?

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Maybe the dropped gear is Uber Powerful but Rare/EX and Unmeldable...

...and maybe the "token-purchased" gear is weaker but is meldable to be equal to the Rare/Ex Drop?

Maybe that would be work?

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short answer: no

long answer: nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu (/O.O/) TT

probably gear with stats no one will ware, making AF optimal lol.

Perhaps the token items should be better than the random drops...of course, they would take many tokens to get

I rather repeat dungeons wearing lesser darklight than AF xD

I'll pretty much take anything over RNG...........

200+ tries for Gambler's Crown {No Thank's!}

0 Darklight drops for 40 runs in a row {No Thank's!}

0/14 Rampagers double melded with ToR IV {No Thank's!}

0/150+ Belts/Bracelets/Axes converted to ToR IV {No Thank's!}

50+ Ifrit fights without a single weapon/token {No Thank's!}

50+ Moogle kills ending up to leave nothing but 6 mogfists and
2 Mogstaffs while u only want sword and axe {No Thank's!}

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

I'll pretty much take anything over RNG...........

200+ tries for Gambler's Crown {No Thank's!}

0 Darklight drops for 40 runs in a row {No Thank's!}

0/14 Rampagers double melded with ToR IV {No Thank's!}

0/150+ Belts/Bracelets/Axes converted to ToR IV {No Thank's!}

50+ Ifrit fights without a single weapon/token {No Thank's!}

50+ Moogle kills ending up to leave nothing but 6 mogfists and
2 Mogstaffs while u only want sword and axe {No Thank's!}

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RNG can be so cruel to some of us ...millions later double melds keep exploding on your face you just wanna facedesk repeatedly

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Maybe the dropped gear is Uber Powerful but Rare/EX and Unmeldable...

...and maybe the "token-purchased" gear is weaker but is meldable to be equal to the Rare/Ex Drop?

Maybe that would be work?

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... Have you been eating paint?

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Originally Posted by Warlock

RNG can be so cruel to some of us ...millions later double melds keep exploding on your face you just wanna facedesk repeatedly

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Then someone comes along and does it in one try.

Yeah, RNG is an old crutch that needs to gtfo. At least these days they need to be working with biased RNG if not kicking the whole system.

Not a big fan of the RNG this game has now because of the materia system =/ The whole needing RNG to have the best gear to cap stats is kinda meh. Like someone said, you can go 0/toomany and someone could just go 1/1. Would rather have to work for the gear rather than rely on RNG.

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

Not a big fan of the RNG this game has now because of the materia system =/ The whole needing RNG to have the best gear to cap stats is kinda meh. Like someone said, you can go 0/toomany and someone could just go 1/1. Would rather have to work for the gear rather than rely on RNG.

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Some people think the only way to make something hard is to make it random :/.

And yes the materia system is stupid as well but without changing the whole thing it is hard to change rng properties and not make the game too easy - which is why i went to create a thread with a suggested new system that would take its place.

We want rewarding - we just want equally rewarding. Right now I say Relic and some people lolz at their almost perfect ratio of no loss and others think epicly pain in the ass hard. Its not even maintaining the right image they want :/

Look at what happened when seals were rained on you, everyone was running around in the higher end gear almost immediately. This is what will happen if anything else is easier to get and no one can deny that it will cheapen the value and accomplishment of having certain gear if everyone can get it just like that.

RNG has to exist but it also can be regulated in a way that it's still random but it doesn't have to be to the extreme 100% 1st meld > 10% 2nd meld > 1 % 3rd > Give me your first born 4th and 5th meld, it could easily drop in tier from 100 > 70 > 50 > 35 > 25%, or they could be smart and give you gear that increases your chances, or make your stats actually affect chances therefore it's regulated to certain level ranges and players who can properly meld, or they can simply make it like the evolith system (aka beta materia system) and let you slot anything and as much as you want just force the need of certain catalyst to come from different content.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Some people think the only way to make something hard is to make it random :/.

And yes the materia system is stupid as well but without changing the whole thing it is hard to change rng properties and not make the game too easy - which is why i went to create a thread with a suggested new system that would take its place.

We want rewarding - we just want equally rewarding. Right now I say Relic and some people lolz at their almost perfect ratio of no loss and others think epicly pain in the ass hard. Its not even maintaining the right image they want :/

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The sad thing is you need RNG otherwise players will have everything they want and refuse to do the content. It sounds like you want something thats 100% drop and that cant happen, because when it dose good luck getting anything done. Now some complain they have done 25, 50, 100 runs in av and cc or the primals that they havent gotten anything, but yes the drop rates could be increase a tad say about 5% but anything more would hurt everyone. Yoshi is giving you players what you want in the form of tokens, but now the same players who complain they have no darklight will complain thats not what they wanted, I say too bad deal with it or go play something thats more your speed. The fact is no matter what you do or what system they use someone will complain about something. You cant expect to get the best gear or weapons in the game and if you do there is something wrong. Final the tokens give the players complaining no progress something to work for with progress, and sorry to say if thats not enough thats no ones problem but your, there is no reason for players to demand that they get the best gear/weapons in the game. Now dont forget regardless of what you might think everything in a MMO will always have some kind of grind to it, so stop being cry babies and suck it up. Now regarding equal rewards please explain because in the current system and new system it is equal you have the same chance as the next player but again it sounds like you want a 100% guarenteed drop instead of putting in time and effort, if thats the case than you dont want whatever it is period!!! What needs to be done is players need to lose the entitlement mentality, because just because you do something dosent entitle you to anything!!!

@Maxthunder
@Elexia (Pretty sure both of you assume tokens means easy which is incorrect "raining seals" kind of talk)

You dont need RNG specially in its basic form (what we have now). This is just some lie you have told yourself over and over.

No matter what we will need a grind - BUT no matter what we DONT need a basic unintelligent RNG design.

They can maintain elements of RNG while making it biased to work and skill. However you dont need to maintain these elements for the imaingary super feeling.

One piece of Darklight 1000 tokens or ~ 400 runs. Boom its rare and its a pain but its not random. (Having never done a Darklight run maybe the cost would be more or less)

Of course then you have people bitching that all you need is time, but that has always been the case for non casual directed MMO's - so nothing new. And they may claim no skill but completing a run takes skill - be rewarded for that run is your reward for your skill. May even earn more tokens for more feats like killing more bosses.

(If using a token system only you would need relief items for those who only want to run the dungeon a few times - but unlike what Yoshida has currently recommended you are not screwed into a rare but possible endless grind (as thats what "random" means - you have no idea what your work means until you "get lucky" which is unacceptable)).

Again you have burned into yourselves you need basic RNG - why I think is because you have no idea why you would suffer such systems before. You dont need it.


(I have crunched the numbers statistically - this is all mathematically sound)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

One piece of Darklight 1000 tokens or ~ 400 runs. Boom its rare and its a pain but its not random. (Having never done a Darklight run maybe the cost would be more or less)

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now this part i do agree with. i've ran the content so i can say i think the 1000 tokens is way too much considering there's 15 total pieces of darklight. saying that'd be around 400 runs per piece you are looking at over 6000 runs to get the full set, but i do agree with you on the basic idea that i wouldn't have minded the low token downgraded version of the gear and a high token cost on the higher version of the gear.

i don't mind people knowing that if they ran the dungeon 200 times they could get the piece they want most or that they could run it 20 times and get the downgraded version. it would give each individual player a choice on whether they want to put the time into going after the upgrade or downgrade, but i feel the downgraded version should have 50% of all stats that the higher tier has.

the only other thing i've seen mentioned was drop rates on the gear as well. if they raised the drop rates to 5-10% tops i would support that change, but anything higher along with the token system is just crazy.

i just don't have the mentality that people should get gear easily, but i can see where someone that's willing to put in the effort and run it over and over shouldn't have to rely COMPLETELY on the rng. at least if tokens could purchase the high level gear they could see progress towards the one piece of gear they were after even if they see they need 200 runs to get it. they could at least say "well i know i will get this piece at least in another x number of runs"

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Originally Posted by Shougun

@Maxthunder
@Elexia (Pretty sure both of you assume tokens means easy which is incorrect "raining seals" kind of talk)

You dont need RNG specially in its basic form (what we have now). This is just some lie you have told yourself over and over.

No matter what we will need a grind - BUT no matter what we DONT need a basic unintelligent RNG design.

They can maintain elements of RNG while making it biased to work and skill. However you dont need to maintain these elements for the imaingary super feeling.

One piece of Darklight 1000 tokens or ~ 400 runs. Boom its rare and its a pain but its not random. (Having never done a Darklight run maybe the cost would be more or less)

Of course then you have people bitching that all you need is time, but that has always been the case for non casual directed MMO's - so nothing new. And they may claim no skill but completing a run takes skill - be rewarded for that run is your reward for your skill. May even earn more tokens for more feats like killing more bosses.

(If using a token system only you would need relief items for those who only want to run the dungeon a few times - but unlike what Yoshida has currently recommended you are not screwed into a rare but possible endless grind (as thats what "random" means - you have no idea what your work means until you "get lucky" which is unacceptable)).

Again you have burned into yourselves you need basic RNG - why I think is because you have no idea why you would suffer such systems before. You dont need it.


(I have crunched the numbers statistically - this is all mathematically sound)

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The issue isnt skill or what not it is that some players probably 75% just want their reward w/o putting much effort into it. Now I stand by the statement: Regardless if you complete the content or not the dev's dont have to give you a bone aka reward, players are entitled to nothing for doing content. Now the Devs put gear or a weapon in content to be earned yet the same 75% think they are entitled to a drop for little to no effort, regardless of rng or what have you. I can support a drop increase of 5% possibly 10% but no more. I can not support 100% drop on the best gear in the game, I really cant support the token system unless, you can get darklight meaning for every 200 tokens you can get a non-body and for 400 tokens you can get a body. Now my suggestion provides what the players want and that is progress and it will also keep the players running said content. Now regarding the 3 loots per dungeon that needs to go as their wont be enough content to support such a lock out at the launch of 2.0 and yoshi has already in a way confirmed that.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

The issue isnt skill or what not it is that some players probably 75% just want their reward w/o putting much effort into it. Now I stand by the statement: Regardless if you complete the content or not the dev's dont have to give you a bone aka reward, players are entitled to nothing for doing content. Now the Devs put gear or a weapon in content to be earned yet the same 75% think they are entitled to a drop for little to no effort, regardless of rng or what have you. I can support a drop increase of 5% possibly 10% but no more. I can not support 100% drop on the best gear in the game, I really cant support the token system unless, you can get darklight meaning for every 200 tokens you can get a non-body and for 400 tokens you can get a body. Now my suggestion provides what the players want and that is progress and it will also keep the players running said content. Now regarding the 3 loots per dungeon that needs to go as their wont be enough content to support such a lock out at the launch of 2.0 and yoshi has already in a way confirmed that.

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Confused how you can suggest a drop rate increase but not a token system that reaches all gear.

Basically you say you support easier randomness but not hard dedication and reliable means , I've never said anything about easy. Or perhaps you are misunderstanding how some other loot systems can work.

There are good points on both sides of the argument, here. And really I'm not even sure where I stand. There are numerous things about 2.0 that when taken at face value make me wince a little inside, and really we would just have to wait and see what they have planned before we can decide how we feel about it.

My hope is that the gear purchased with tokens would be similar in utility but overall different from the rare dropped gear. So that one could feasibly fit either into their gear sets without having to compromise much. Whether that translates into the dropped gear being the current darklight sets with wider job utility per piece and the token gear perhaps being geared to one specific job and having just more sets... I dunno... I love to brainstorm about things like this...

Hopefully, though, they can find a way to integrate the tokens so they can be used for things beyond placeholder gear until you can get the rarer drops. Whether that is through desirable/useful consumables, or unique accessories, or even just novelty items. As long as they can create a need for the tokens it should keep things interesting.

people are coming up with crazy numbers like 200 runs thats 90-100 hours of spamming unless the lock out is longer then thats gonna be thats much longer. you should be forced to get an items to even do the instance. that would kill spamming. and not easy a hell items like inferno taper, unmarked keystones & garuda items you need to start the fight.
EXAMPLE only:
ffxi you got beastmen seals to trade for orbs at different prices and each orb was a different level then you used that orb to start different instances in different areas, there there was kindred seal did the same purpose but had different fights and so on. that kinda system your not penalized or able to spam.

then you had bigger events that costed a hour galss item that lasted an hour & costed 1mill gil and you could make like copys of it to give to party members once you enter the instance your timer started after the tier ended you had a 3 day lock out.

the ARR dungeons need to be more then just a kill quest also, even wow had quest you can get inside a instance.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Confused how you can suggest a drop rate increase but not a token system that reaches all gear.

Basically you say you support easier randomness but not hard dedication and reliable means , I've never said anything about easy. Or perhaps you are misunderstanding how some other loot systems can work.

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Please read again I suggested both a small increase in drop rate as well as the tokens say 200 for non-bodies and 400 tokens for bodies. We already know that crystal towers may or may not be ready at launch and Im betting it wont be ready at launch.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Hopefully, though, they can find a way to integrate the tokens so they can be used for things beyond placeholder gear until you can get the rarer drops. Whether that is through desirable/useful consumables, or unique accessories, or even just novelty items. As long as they can create a need for the tokens it should keep things interesting.

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My proposition was to handle it like WoW, back when I played it anyway. The only thing you could buy that was shared between relevant content at the time were items used to trade for tier gear. Everything else you buy with tokens were unique items, usually in slots where between two dungeons that were relevant to a content patch, there would be one drop for that slot. (wands, librams, etc.) Later on they started adding boots and gauntlets and stuff.

Anyway, if people are dead set against using tokens for main slot armor pieces (head, body, hands, feet, legs) then at least let us use tokens for equipment for all the other different item slots, but are the same item level as drops from the other dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Please read again I suggested both a small increase in drop rate as well as the tokens say 200 for non-bodies and 400 tokens for bodies. We already know that crystal towers may or may not be ready at launch and Im betting it wont be ready at launch.

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I just must be reading it wrong then because I get something else out of it lol

And system like what you said will work I think, only a few pages in I said something very similar.

Just RNG however cannot be the only avenue.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I just must be reading it wrong then because I get something else out of it lol

And system like what you said will work I think, only a few pages in I said something very similar.

Just RNG however cannot be the only avenue.

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yeah, war just thinks since the bodies are the most difficult to get in a set it should have the highest cost if allowed to be obtained via tokens. it was a more along the lines he doesn't support getting the best gear via tokens without having them require alot of effort to get them.

he's like i mentioned earlier.
20 tokens gets the lower tier gear with 50% of the stats
200 tokens gets the higher tier gear.

his only difference is he wants to have the body cost more than the rest because it's the hardest to get now. it'd be like 10 tokens for ifrit's weapons and 20 for garuda's except it'd be on bodies and everything else.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i just don't have the mentality that people should get gear easily, but i can see where someone that's willing to put in the effort and run it over and over shouldn't have to rely COMPLETELY on the rng. at least if tokens could purchase the high level gear they could see progress towards the one piece of gear they were after even if they see they need 200 runs to get it. they could at least say "well i know i will get this piece at least in another x number of runs"

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I think thats exacty what people want. myself included.