Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Because it would ruin the point of having multiple Atmas to begin with, which is to give each different region and CE different values for each player, otherwise people would just never attempt to spawn Calamity Bound past their first story-mandated one, or they'd just go to Heritage Found/Living Memory where they don't need to be sync'd down and is a lot easier as a result of iLvl creep, since FATEs are tuned to a 690 and lower iLvl. Video game players, especially MMO players, need restrictions, or they will always take the path of least resistance and then complain about the path offering very little resistance.

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Completely beside the point. Once I have e.g.: all orange Atmas, I stop doing the CE's in the orange zone and I also would not venture into the overworld zone that has it drop from FATEs.

It's not as if CE's drop anything else that is worthwhile that you'd still need after you are done with this shitty droprate in the first place.

So again: why would a 1:1 trade of surplus Atma colors be "too easy"?

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Originally Posted by Arongar

I've grinded for several relics in the past, and while there was a grind I never felt like I was truly wasting my time. It's different this time around. Maybe I just got lucky in the past.

I don't see a world where SE tested how it "Feels" to grind demiatma. I've spent roughly 7 hours grinding fates between zones and have gotten ZERO drops. My time is too valuable for this shit.

I don't expect everything to be "handed" to me, but I want my time to be valued. At this point there needs to be some sort of pity system. Maybe for every fate you do, and don't get a demiatma, increase the drop rate? I'm not sure what the best solution is, all I do know is...I'm skipping this relic. I was so excited for a new relic. To finally have a new chase in the game, but this is just awful. So disappointing. It's like SE has not learned anything in 10+ years of development. It's no wonder why players have been bailing on this game lately. Soon, I might be joining them.

I just don't feel like this game is for me anymore.

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I'm actually glad that all the people who cried about 1500 tomes get to suffer now. They got what they asked for. Mindless useless long grinds for a weapon that isnt even worth using.

Still doing OK so far. Consistently getting at least one demiatma every playing session and avoiding the zones that already dropped all the demiatma I needed. The drop rate is just too low to go at it for hours on end but at this rate I should be done in 1-2 weeks max.

Actually the atma drop is easy. Def they touched something after a couple of days after release

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

I'm actually glad that all the people who cried about 1500 tomes get to suffer now. They got what they asked for. Mindless useless long grinds for a weapon that isnt even worth using.

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I'm glad too. This is exactly what we asked for! The weapon is also just a glamour or achievement thing, really. And it is best at the tail end of the expansion or for alt jobs.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Being this grindy for the first step is just way overkill.

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They typically nerf the first step quite early on. Actually in a few ways. As more steps happen, they nerf some of the earlier ones. They nerf them way more after the expansion is over, as time goes on, as well.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They typically nerf the first step quite early on. Actually in a few ways. As more steps happen, they nerf some of the earlier ones. They nerf them way more after the expansion is over, as time goes on, as well.

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Yop.
Hence my first suggestion to wait for a nerf if it bothers people too much.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

I'm actually glad that all the people who cried about 1500 tomes get to suffer now. They got what they asked for. Mindless useless long grinds for a weapon that isnt even worth using.

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Why are people like you trying to weave this "This is the monkey's paw you deserved!" narrative? this is exactly what I asked for, and if anything I am on the camp of thinking they could afford to be harder, not something I baited myself onto.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I am on the camp of thinking they could afford to be harder

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RNG grinds that eat a shitload of time != hard. Just pure unadulterated tedium.
Only thing to be considered hard in there is probably the tower instance. Even CE's are relatively easy, once you managed to see them a few times.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

RNG grinds that eat a shitload of time != hard. Just pure unadulterated tedium.

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Do you have a point besides pedantry over definitions? replace the word "hard" with any other that you feel is suitable, "longer", "intense", even "boring" if you want to be disingenuous, I want more of that.

Since my last post I have gained 10 levels and 1 whole materia drop, that to me is not worth the effort for the amount of time put in

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

I'm actually glad that all the people who cried about 1500 tomes get to suffer now. They got what they asked for. Mindless useless long grinds for a weapon that isnt even worth using.

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I'm pretty happy with engaging with current content. I don't know why people are obsessed with getting this done asap for a weapon like you said won't have any worth till the tail end of an expansion.

But on that note relic grinds should definitely begin with an Expansion launch or 7.1 launch.

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

I'm actually glad that all the people who cried about 1500 tomes get to suffer now. They got what they asked for. Mindless useless long grinds for a weapon that isnt even worth using.

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The only reason I’m not happy with the relic structure this time is the inability to do anything other than dump tomes when you reach the actual relic obtaining bit. Leave the demiatma drop on and let me trade a set in or have the rocks drop from chains/fates/ces/chests too. It’s not as bad as dawntrail because you at least get a few mathematics from things within OC

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

But on that note relic grinds should definitely begin with an Expansion launch or 7.1 launch.

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I seen a suggestion before that Relics should have a "step 0" point where you take that expansion's Artifact Weapon and have you do *something* with it to give it a nice VFX and be the base for your relic, kind of like what was done in Stormblood, it would both allow to give the Artifact weapon some pzazz, and it would give a softer starting point. It also makes me wonder if people would be less whiny about "This is too much for a first step" if there was this step 0 there, probably not, but one can hope.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Do you have a point besides pedantry over definitions? replace the word "hard" with any other that you feel is suitable, "longer", "intense", even "boring" if you want to be disingenuous, I want more of that.

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I already did. The word "tedium" was chosen for a reason.

I really want to know what goes on in people's heads that they consider FATE grinds or even trash mob grinds "entertaining". Especially in that blasted OC zone where they keel over so fast that if you hesitate to teleport for even 1 second you no longer get gold. I just don't get it.

CE's are okay, as they at least have mechanics to watch out for.

But once you need the Atma from the south west of the map it gets yucky. Just not much going on in that area, which basically forces you into the overworld zone. I'm missing 4 Demiatma. 3 of those are the ones from the south west area. <_<

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Originally Posted by Granyala

But once you need the Atma from the south west of the map it gets yucky. Just not much going on in that area, which basically forces you into the overworld zone. I'm missing 4 Demiatma. 3 of those are the ones from the south west area. <_<

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Same. And I was doing fates outside of the zone for 3 hours and still saw 0 drops of it. This concept in and of itself is bad and the least creative thing they could do but having only 1 CE and 3 fates in that area is just pure incompetance.

I just wish Yoshi PR could do something more than "How about FATEs?" when asked what kind of content should be added. Because we are going on 15 years of content that is made up of hallways, rooms and fates. To say it's getting stale is a massive understatement.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Same. And I was doing fates outside of the zone for 3 hours and still saw 0 drops of it. This concept in and of itself is bad and the least creative thing they could do but having only 1 CE and 3 fates in that area is just pure incompetance.

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I farmed mine in Kozama'uka. Got unbelievably lucky, around 17 Fates for all 3 drops. The all 3 came back to back at the end.

WTF?!, How is this in any way fair? RNG will even out over the playerbase but from player to player the difference in effort needed can be staggering. This is NOT good game design at all.

White Mage got her relic and I am done with OC. Unless my buddies want to go in, in which case I accompany them but I have -0- interest in this whole useless "phantom-job" leveling nonsense.

I need two more azurite demiatma and I've spent 4-5 hours farming fates and CEs every other day when I have the time (Both in OC and world fates) and I haven't seen a single one drop all week. Am I supposed to feel a sense of accomplishment when this is over because this isn't challenging its just an exercise in tedium. What exactly is the difference between this and just farming up tomestones? Both are dull, challengless tasks where you do the same content over and over and over the only difference is tomes are guaranteed and here you can pour hours upon hours of your limited time into the game to come away with a whole lot of nothing. The social aspect? Because this is about as social as a hunt train, at least early on. At this stage I'm relegated to one corner of the map and never see anyone.

My curse is the black mage weapon is the ideal looking thing I've wanted for years (Finally a nice, simple wooden staff that isn't made of evil hellmetal!) and I know this is going to be so much worse if I do it later but when (if?) I'm done I'm never touching this again lmao

Why are people using the excuse that the relic is useless to justify that it’s too much effort for the output but not the counterargument; that if the relic is useless there is no reason why you need it right now to the point you have to bang your head against the wall and make yourself frustrated to get it

The statistical chance of not having the correct atma by the time you are +12 on phantom jobs is astronomically small. And as pointed out the current relics are useless. If you aren’t enjoying getting them then just don’t get them right now. Isn’t the whole “take your time you’ll get it eventually” literally how people try to justify the tomestone relics

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The statistical chance of not having the correct atma by the time you are +12 on phantom jobs

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Eh? I thought the Phantom Jobs can only level to 6? At least that's when the game told me it's maxed out. Oo

I think the Atma RNG is a little too much for a first step, simply because there is no bad-luck protection.
The average drop rate is fine but said average might not apply to an individual player. Keep in mind: if sth. has the chance of 1 in a million, with millions of players some people WILL be affected by said scenario. IMHO game design MUST account for that.

You are absolutely correct, that if the RNG grind bothers people, they can and should just wait for a nerf.
SE WILL nerf this precisely because it is the first step. Put your legs up and use the tome weapon in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Eh? I thought the Phantom Jobs can only level to 6? At least that's when the game told me it's maxed out. Oo

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Correct, well, depending on job.

They mean when you have all 12 Phantom Jobs at their respective max level.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Eh? I thought the Phantom Jobs can only level to 6? At least that's when the game told me it's maxed out. Oo.

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I think they meant getting all 12 phantom jobs to cap, + being the freelancer, since it said getting +12 on phantom jobs and not +12 on all phantom jobs.

But I am not fate farming all those jobs up when there is absolutely no need to do so since Forked Tower, the only place they really matter, is a complete bust. I just want my demimateria so I can get my weapon and call it a day. Phantom Jobs are essentially meaningless with the current state of OC.

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Originally Posted by RenegadeInferno

Correct, well, depending on job.
They mean when you have all 12 Phantom Jobs at their respective max level.

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Ah.. okay. That makes sense.

But that fails to account for a large part of the playerbase that has no actual interest in either: the phantom jobs or the tower (the only place where they are needed). Many a player will just go in there because he wants the relic. Like me, for instance.

I leveled Monk to max and the basic tank one to 5. Both jobs are like SUPER uninteresting. Their skills don't do much. No clue about the others but given the amount of time it takes to level even one of these .... yah. Not going to bother.

That grind is WAAAAAAAAAAY overcooked, to the degree that I don't think it is SE's intention that the average player levels all of them.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Ah.. okay. That makes sense.

But that fails to account for a large part of the playerbase that has no actual interest in either: the phantom jobs or the tower (the only place where they are needed). Many a player will just go in there because he wants the relic. Like me, for instance.

I leveled Monk to max and the basic tank one to 5. Both jobs are like SUPER uninteresting. Their skills don't do much. No clue about the others but given the amount of time it takes to level even one of these .... yah. Not going to bother.

That grind is WAAAAAAAAAAY overcooked, to the degree that I don't think it is SE's intention that the average player levels all of them.

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But that’s the point I’m making. The relics are useless in their current state and won’t be updated for ages. Why do you need them now? Grind them at your own pace when you feel like doing OC or Fates. If you never feel like doing the content that drops relic materials then you just don’t get the relic. That’s how every relic except EW worked

So I thought a lot about it, and here's what I'd change about the current, release version of Demiatmas:

- Perfecting a Critical Engagement, that is, not dying or gaining any Vul stacks, guarantees a Demiatma drop, this wouldn't have made gaining Relics at any easier at first, as everyone was still learning CEs, but it would inflict a pretty strict upper limit to how long it could take, and even discourage Tank immortality as a strategy, as being actually good at the game would be objectively more beneficial. I would also change the Closter Torches in Calamity Bound to no longer apply a Vul stack if not killed as currently it is possible to get hit with one by no fault of your own, and you don't want people to be able to grief something like that by deliberately avoiding the Torches.

- You would be able to trade Demiatmas for a resource, 3 or 5 of that resource (to be decided) would let you purchase any Demiatma of your choice, 5 sounds like a fair number in addition to the above change, but it can be argued.

- The resource above would then be additionally used to trade for Arcanite, 6 would equal an Arcanite, meaning 18 Demiatmas of any color equals a relic, again values can be argued, but the point is to encourage people to keep doing OC past the one-time step, which currently doesn't exist. Buying Arcanite for tomes would remain as the non-OC option.

I feel these changes would make everything agreeable, would repair one of my biggest issues with OC currently, would keep the RNG while inducting a player-controlled cap to the grind, and so on.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

So I thought a lot about it, and here's what I'd change about the current, release version of Demiatmas:

- Perfecting a Critical Engagement, that is, not dying or gaining any Vul stacks, guarantees a Demiatma drop, this wouldn't have made gaining Relics at any easier at first, as everyone was still learning CEs, but it would inflict a pretty strict upper limit to how long it could take, and even discourage Tank immortality as a strategy, as being actually good at the game would be objectively more beneficial. I would also change the Closter Torches in Calamity Bound to no longer apply a Vul stack if not killed as currently it is possible to get hit with one by no fault of your own, and you don't want people to be able to grief something like that by deliberately avoiding the Torches.

- You would be able to trade Demiatmas for a resource, 3 or 5 of that resource (to be decided) would let you purchase any Demiatma of your choice, 5 sounds like a fair number in addition to the above change, but it can be argued.

- The resource above would then be additionally used to trade for Arcanite, 6 would equal an Arcanite, meaning 18 Demiatmas of any color equals a relic, again values can be argued, but the point is to encourage people to keep doing OC past the one-time step, which currently doesn't exist. Buying Arcanite for tomes would remain as the non-OC option.

I feel these changes would make everything agreeable, would repair one of my biggest issues with OC currently, would keep the RNG while inducting a player-controlled cap to the grind, and so on.

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Ooo, I would really love these changes, including the first change you're proposing since you then give an incentive to actually do coin mechanic currently on the turtle CE other than just because you want to do it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Tahmamo

Ooo, I would really love these changes, including the first change you're proposing since you then give an incentive to actually do coin mechanic currently on the turtle CE other than just because you want to do it correctly.

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Yeah my big issue that I mentioned is that like, there is currently no benefit to actually doing CEs properly, not even Battle High, it actually would've added a nice wrinkle to the entire grind process to me if I could've looped my Battle High buff for hours by just being good at the game(and lucky that the CEs that I am worst at didn't pop but let's not focus on that), but no, there is nothing... and this would've been something, while also not taking away from people who aren't capable or aren't willing to learn those fights, as the same RNG would still be there, now the game is just asking one trait from you, skill or perseverance.

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if I could level jobs in here so I could be at least somewhat productive but for some reason they decided no to that. Anyway hopping off after another 4 hours of mindless farming in the corner of the map where I come away with 0 (zero) demiatma. A great use of my Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But that’s the point I’m making. The relics are useless in their current state and won’t be updated for ages. Why do you need them now? Grind them at your own pace when you feel like doing OC or Fates. If you never feel like doing the content that drops relic materials then you just don’t get the relic. That’s how every relic except EW worked

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Pretty sure most people do the relic for
a) glamor
b) the end of the expansion when it can become BiS.

As for the "grind at your own pace": with overworld Fates that is not a problem but CE's will be very difficult to handle once the zones are starved of players. I already had a wipe on cloister demon because the map was nearly empty and we were too few to handle the sigil chain mechanic.

So yeah: objectively, the best and most comfortable time to do OC is now.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

- Perfecting a Critical Engagement, that is, not dying or gaining any Vul stacks, guarantees a Demiatma drop

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Funnily enough, I thought about something like that myself while doing CEs and gradually getting better at them.
It would be neat, if good play was actually rewarded.

I also think your idea with the trade-able resource (depending on how we get said resource) would make for a nice extreme bad-luck protection and fix the most glaring issue with the Demiatma farming.

Though I do not understand: what is your issue with tanks?

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Originally Posted by Wired-Lain

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if I could level jobs in here so I could be at least somewhat productive but for some reason they decided no to that.

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I guess they did that to de-couple your output from the in-zone leveling system. One of my biggest complaints about Eureka (not sure on Bozja) was that your contribution was actually useless until you had the level. You literally did 2 digit damage to a high level mob. Like ... don't even bother attacking, can just AFK and it makes no difference.

So for a very large portion of the time in there, you just felt like baggage that got dragged around by other players. Not fun.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Pretty sure most people do the relic for
a) glamor
b) the end of the expansion when it can become BiS.

As for the "grind at your own pace": with overworld Fates that is not a problem but CE's will be very difficult to handle once the zones are starved of players. I already had a wipe on cloister demon because the map was nearly empty and we were too few to handle the sigil chain mechanic.

So yeah: objectively, the best and most comfortable time to do OC is now.

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Yes but you act like that window will close tomorrow. The next piece of content we are getting is in late August and that’s just a story patch

There is almost no FOMO on OC performance because the game releases content so damn slow. Hell it may actually be better to wait till 7.45 when the accidentally release a massively overpowered job a la flare star to nuke the content

Regardless if being slow going now when the content isn’t even 3 weeks old isn’t a problem

the sigil mechanic from that demon. yeah wiped there too... the only wipe i experienced in this content.

most people were in the tower.... but we in fact didnt wipe because of the lack of players but because the people were too stupid to spread themselves out. only 4 people per sigil needed!

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Though I do not understand: what is your issue with tanks?

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I don't have any particular issue so much as I am trying to poke at a specific issue that people have been having with OC since the release, in that Tanks are just incredibly durable and can survive with 10, 11, maybe even up to 16 vul stacks if they are good at managing their mitigations, it's something I personally don't think it's as much of an issue as people make it out to be, Tanks need to be durable and a huge part of their perceived immortality in OC is the fact that only one Tank per CE needs to be an actual Tank and all others are glorified (bad) DPS, and admittedly that added safety of Tanks is something a lot of players are leaning into in OC even as we speak, and even if I disagree with the point, I understand where the feeling of anxiety, of feeling like Tanks are god's favored child and have every privilege under the sun, around the issue comes from, so I'd enjoy to address them even if I find the concerns around the issue overblown.

So a feature that discouraged players from leaning on that safety could be really beneficial to discourage that behavior, it would have little impact in gameplay, the Tank would still a Tank and players who want that safety would still have it, but there would be something of a penalty, or more accurately the absence of a bonus which I find extremely important as a distinction, you wouldn't be penalizing someone for playing that way, you just wouldn't be giving them that extra pat on the back for it, and even if someone did feel penalized... well, they visibly played like shit, so if they want to no longer be, they are going to be pushed to at least try to improve, and by creating a bonus that Tanks can't achieve by simply being Tanks, it also attempts to alleviate people's anxiety around the point.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

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One big problem with tanks in OC specifically is tank mastery which bundles in a hidden potency nerf to tank damage calculations but specifically doesn’t apply to phantom actions, and then phantom actions have such deceptively high potency that it ends up basically removing tanks only real downside which is their damage (for example I have all +1 gear on PLD, blade of valour is listed as 1000 potency. A critical direct hit with it does 95k damage give or take. A 1000 potency hit on a DPS critical direct hit would do about 130-140k. Then comet, a skill listed as having 500 potency with my +1 gear does about 240k damage)

Then there is the fact that that there isn’t a single phantom job that provides both sustain and damage to yourself. Chemist and freelancer provide sustain but no damage options and geo provides damage and sustain but it’s basically impossible to get meaningful damage out of bell yourself as a non tank because the raidwide damage has to be scaled specifically to DPS not playing GEO.

So the tanks only downside is removed. The other jobs have to trade any damage increases to get sustain and the downsides of strong jobs like oracle and beserker feel like they were balanced around tank sustain

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes but you act like that window will close tomorrow. The next piece of content we are getting is in late August and that’s just a story patch

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OC will die down the moment hardcores have what they want. It's always the hardcores that drive such content.
In 2-3 months, I expect the maps to be relatively empty, though not necessarily empty to the point of being broken.

It's always like this with content in MMOs. Either go with the flow or find yourself left with far fewer people to do it or even left behind.

That being said: stretching out the relic over 2-3 month should allow casuals to comfortably get it. SE didn't design these quests to be finished in a week to the point of burn-out. That's just us no-lifing it because we're either on a roll or impatient. :'D

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Originally Posted by Asari5

the sigil mechanic from that demon. yeah wiped there too... the only wipe i experienced in this content.

most people were in the tower.... but we in fact didnt wipe because of the lack of players but because the people were too stupid to spread themselves out. only 4 people per sigil needed!

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This has very little do do with "stupid", in a group where there is no coordination and a limited time to do the mechanic. In order to do it with e.g.: 8 people you would need to assign 2 groups with a marked leader at the start, define a common starting point and then e.g.: Group 1 clockwise, group 2 counterclockwise.

Since people rarely even talk, how do you expect such coordination to work?

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

I find the concerns around the issue overblown.

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Thanks for your thoughts.
Yeah I think these issues are also overblown, after all we are talking the most casual form of content here. It's not as if CE's go berserk (not looking at you Berserker) because the groups damage is too low.

But 16 stacks? Damn, and here I felt sporty as a healer with 1-3 at max. (yeah after a few hours concentration wavers and you do get hit now and then) :'D

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Then there is the fact that that there isn’t a single phantom job that provides both sustain and damage to yourself.

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Oracle, Oracle is right there, just use Judgement every time and you will still be dishing out a ton of damage while healing yourself, and tempting as it may be, you don't have to click Starfall, I have been able to keep my party alive without any Healers as a VPR Oracle between Phantom Rejuvenation and Judgement.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

the downsides of strong jobs like oracle and beserker feel like they were balanced around tank sustain

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Oracle, to me, feels like is balanced around Phantom Rejuvenation, you are supposed to time the two so they line up, notably you should have ~120k HP in OC as a DPS, and Phantom Rejuv heals just over that, guaranteeing you will always be at full after using Starfall and Rejuvenation, it's just a fact that you can negate a downside of "lose HP" with "gain HP", but I am not seeing you argue that Oracle is balanced around Excog.

Berserker is absolutely balanced around WAR specifically though, that much I agree, but that's because they are (thematically) the same Job, the question here is more if Berserker should be an offensive-leaning Phantom Job, but WAR, in terms of vibes and aesthetics, always felt like it should've been a DPS to me.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you aren’t enjoying getting them then just don’t get them right now.

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I mean to be fair, I'm complaining because I want the content those relics do require to be content that I enjoy doing. I'm pretty sure you'd be complaining about it too if you didn't like it.
It's not really rocket science in a way. I don't like it, my feedback is that I don't like it, and want something else instead. If it conflicts with what other players want out of it, then arguments will ensue, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

This isn't even hard, just implement a pity system and all the RNG grief goes away.
Do it for the job stones, too. Jesus christ. 2 weeks and still no zerker jobstone drop. Are you kidding me.

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2 weeks in and I have gotten zero of the CE job stones lol. 3 carrots, and almost enough demiatmas for two relics. Anyone want to trade RNG tables with me? This is beyond frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Johnny-Canuck

2 weeks in and I have gotten zero of the CE job stones lol. 3 carrots, and almost enough demiatmas for two relics. Anyone want to trade RNG tables with me? This is beyond frustrating.

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Right there with you mate. This sucks. Mastered 7 jobs and still nothing.

Meanwhile I have consistently bemoaned the fact that the aren't tradable, at one point I had 6 Berserker crystals without use other than a pittance of Silver, I'd gladly be giving them out.

they need to stop necrobumping these topics its against the tos

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Originally Posted by george357

they need to stop necrobumping these topics its against the tos

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The content is less than 3 weeks old who is necroing