Don't do chaotic raid again

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I do find the casuals vs. hardcore player debate interesting because the hardcore player base hates that us "filthy casuals" are even in the game, when XIV's success was built on the casual player base. If we all quit and leave because they start to only cater to the 1% of the player base that likes this content - good luck. The chaos raid is just not accessible. It's already difficult to get groups together, PF is already gatekeeping hard on who can join and if you go into Raid Finder you could wait 8+ hours and never get included in a party. Then locking the cosmetics behind it, at the end of the day, this raid (which let's get real, is a 24 man TRIAL) will be dead within a week or so.

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The hardcore players don’t care. When the game starts dying they’ll just say “it’s an old game anyway” or “at least it has more players than ARR”. They are self-destructive, and once they burn out, will just move on to the next MMO to poison.

This was my first blind/day 1 progging stuff, the experience initially was really fun until we hit P2....which led to frustrations. I thought it's just day 1 thing, I joined a PF that had discord required because you're more likely to prog in a somewhat organized environment. I'd always go for that though I personally prefer the non-commitment of PF, however you'll be held back alot. I don't mind prog on smaller scale but 24 man is hard to manage, people might leave and you reprog again. You need your alliance to execute stuff to prog but you also need other alliance not to blow up their towers.

I think these are growing pains of day 1. Mechanically after sitting on it, I don't think it's that hard, what makes it hard is the body checks imo...

I was really excited to prog this in PF....I even dreamt I was progging it today, I was struggling with some stuff yesterday but I made some /echo macros to help me abit.....I woke up only to see alot of P2 groups are locked to ilv725...I only have ilv723 right now which put a damper on my spirits. I can execute things fairly well up until the swap/spreads, I never saw beyond that because at that point usually people are dead and you can get double hit from spreads which kills you.

I enjoyed the times when our alliance is executing things perfectly but then PF disbands cause 1 guy leaves...

I can see RDM/BRD being frequent picks in this raid, especially RDM.

For now I'm just disappointed that people are ilvl locking it and seeing people advocate for like clearing savage for this when this isn't even beyond savage. The only content locked behind savage and rightfully so is Ultimate. I see people locking high ilvls for Sphene because of laws of ice, I understand why people want/do that, but it feels like if you're requiring 'only raiders who cleared current content' can join us it's abit telling that perhaps the mechanics are abit too unforgiving. (or just PF in general is bad)

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Originally Posted by remiff

However, for people who primarily play normal content, this will be far more than a challenge.

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Yes, of course, for people who have spent thousands of hours in a game learning absolutely nothing along the way and making no conscious effort to improve, everything above "dodge this 3 second telegraphed AoE" will feel like an insurmountable challenge. If the only measure of "success" one had during all that time was "clearing one way or another, even if dead on the floor for 80% of the fight", that's the player's own fault. Even normal content has lots of different mechanics that can be learned if anyone actually wants to learn. However, experience tell, that just dividing up into the alliance groups and having 4 people stand on the Atomos platform is too much to ask of players with triple digit clears of this dungeon.

A significant portion of the playerbase has used the fact that the normal content is tuned to be forgiving, as an excuse to not learn any mechanics ever. Alexander raids regularly wipe groups because expecting to learn which platform to pull the adds to, or when to turn into a gorilla, or how to freeze a tornado, is toxic elitism. Aetherochemical Research Facitilty features a 2 person enumeration tower. But why learn that, when you could just let the person explode? With current gear scaling most will survive with a sliver of health, or can be rezzed otherwise. Even dead healers are no problems, tanks at that level can solo. And since "completion" is the only quality measure, there is no difference. Same for the Eden raids, just let the enumerations explode, sacrifice some dps instead of soaking their tether. Just heal and rezz through it, never learn.

Dun Scaith? Who even knows how to do the mechanics there?! I mean, why bother, someone will do them and rezz. Burst the boss' shield down so that it stops critting the tank? Actually healing the tank? Why, someone else will do it (hopefully).

That's why Bozja is no different, more on that below.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

No, you're a masochist. The Baldesion Arsenal, Castrum Lacus Litore, Delubrum Reginae, and The Dalriada are medium-challenging content and actually scale down if you go with the half the max that they allow you to do. Delubrum Reginae (Savage) is a bit below Savage in terms of difficulty with escalating mechanics, but you can be carried if you aren't completely incompetent and the Zadnor lost actions make it bearable.

This is savage-tier difficulty, it has body checks and personal responsibility mechanics that hurt other players with damage downs and doom if you mess them up, something that's worse in 24-man content than 4 or 8-man.

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It's not savage level, it's EX, for the very reasons I outlined earlier. Even the body checks aren't hard body checks, 1 or 2 failed towers can be survived. What they aren't though, is trivial content where a few higher skilled players can carry the majority of slackers like in normal content. And that normal content includes CLL, DR and Dalriada as well (I haven't done BA, so I cannot judge it's difficulty).

Bozja is not "midcore". A group of 4 semi competent people can clear every CE while 20 others lie dead on the floor. There is nothing "midcore" about it. The reason Red Choctober wipes so many groups so often, is because at some point, you don't even have 4 semi competent people in the whole instance anymore, or even 1. All the "midcores" repeatedly die to Red Choctober the same way all the "casuals" repeatedly die to it, by not ever having bothered to actually learn the fight. And that fight has exactly 3 mechanics. 3! Repeating! Mechanics! The same is true for the raids inside them. The bosses required "coordination" which amounts to "please split into two groups, a bit more dps and people bottom please". That's a laughable level. And even then, the main difficulty becomes "stop dpsing please". And even then, you have 3 minutes after one boss is dead to pick up the slack. 3 minutes! That's 2 whole burst windows!

You say that people can be carried in DRS. But the same is true for the Chaotic Alliance Raid. It's just that only a few people can be carried, you cannot have a majority be the one wanting to be carried all the time! As far as I am aware, that is also true for DRS.

"personal responsibility mechanics" - Yeah, good, welcome to adulthood. Stop being a slacker expecting a carriage. In Bozja, one can soak a single lane, or 3-5 (depending on class / loadout). The more each individual applies themselves to soak the damage, the less the armor is damaged, allowing for more leeway. Same is true for baiting the AoEs before going into the big line stacks, instead of mindlessly going into the AoE area potentially killing others. Or just properly equipping lost actions and using proper essences. It's personal responsibility all the way down. Always has been.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

It's not savage level, it's EX, for the very reasons I outlined earlier. Even the body checks aren't hard body checks, 1 or 2 failed towers can be survived. What they aren't though, is trivial content where a few higher skilled players can carry the majority of slackers like in normal content. And that normal content includes CLL, DR and Dalriada as well (I haven't done BA, so I cannot judge it's difficulty).

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Go in with the intended Ilvl of 710. Then the Towers will be a problem ;) You are comparing a 710 Ilvl Raid you are already outgearing and which you are nearly be Ilvl synched too. So of course its "just" EX cause you have wiggle room for failures. The Standard PF wont have these luxury.

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Originally Posted by Yodada

Go in with the intended Ilvl of 710. Then the Towers will be a problem ;) You are comparing a 710 Ilvl Raid you are already outgearing and which you are nearly be Ilvl synched too. So of course its "just" EX cause you have wiggle room for failures. The Standard PF wont have these luxury.

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Ahaha, yeah, you got me there! I also went in without food, had broken gear, used only AoE abilities and we didn't mitigate at all. Turns out, that made it all very hard. Who knew?!

My man, this content isn't released in a vacuum. The fact that better gear allows for more leeway is intentional by the developers. It's to reduce the necessity for proper execution and planning of mitigations. Further, it's been more than enough time for people to get the 720 sets with tomes, upgrade at least some pieces with the AR token tp 730, and to upgrade the 710 crafted set to 720. "Luxury", when the game throws gear at you left and right. But true to this topic, even the most basic of effort is too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Have you ever bothered to ask, or do you prefer to just mock?

An MMO is for many such people a safer environment for the simple reason that if things get weird, there's an off switch. Getting on Discord voice with complete strangers is a very different experience from doing a DF dungeon.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

Social anxiety can get tremendously worse with a single negative encounter. It is not safe for mentally damaged individuals to engage with strangers on the internet who may explode on them over a silly mistake. These things do happen and people with anxiety know that, this is why they protect themselves from such situations. .

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So which is it? I'll let ya'll decide among yourselves. Can't you simply "switch off" Discord, and if so, how is it a issue if comms are needed that you don't need to participate in? How about growing a pair and just being like "f this" if you have a bad encounter?

Not only that, but voice comms aren't usually needed again, it's more to schedule timing for it. So again, IF you have such socially crippling anxiety that you can't even spend time to find a scheduled group for things like BA, DR or BLU Raids, then why does it matter if the content is not active? You clearly don't care for the content and you also don't deserve any items it rewards. You play an MMO that is going to force you into party situations. If your crippling anxiety doesn't allow that, then what is the point about complaining about content since you aren't intent on doing it?

The contradiction is glaring.

The people on these forums are hilarious. The moment you tell anyone they have to work alil harder, they tell you how they are part of LGBT, have a mental issue or some sort of physical impairment. It's ridiculous already.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Yes, of course, for people who have spent thousands of hours in a game learning absolutely nothing along the way and making no conscious effort to improve, everything above "dodge this 3 second telegraphed AoE" will feel like an insurmountable challenge.

However, experience tell, that just dividing up into the alliance groups and having 4 people stand on the Atomos platform is too much to ask of players with triple digit clears of this dungeon.

A significant portion of the playerbase has used the fact that the normal content is tuned to be forgiving, as an excuse to not learn any mechanics ever.

Etc.

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Why are you here? Why do you play the game? Because you have such a seething contempt for the average player. If this game is making you that unhappy, maybe you need to reconsider why you play.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Can I introduce you to the tragedy of Wildstar MMO that had the best housing system ever created but drove everyone away with how hard to access the endgame content was? Not saying that FFXIV is at that point yet, but not catering to your casual crowd is how you KILL MMO's. But I reckon they rely on new players to be hard stuck in the 1000000 hour MSQ story rather than creating more casual and approachable or innovative content. As crap and a bloated system as WoW is today, its initial success was made because it was approachable for the casuals and at least TRYING to innovate along the years.

It's why I rarely watch any FFXIV creators, all they go on about is parsing and how some potency changes affect their clear times in this immensely boring system of a dodge dance fight system where you spam a singular rotation. As a tank I'd love to kite a boss to locations, Line of sight a boss, have something mechanical as a tank to do in raids and dungeons aside from dodging mechanics and spamming damage, waiting for the boss to reset to a middle location. Think about itemization more than spamming the same materia in slots, the gearing seems immensely boring without any excitement of discovery or rng drops to it too.


Look I'm not a endgame player, but I don't NEED to play it to see that the system is BORING and UNINNOVATIVE. ANything can be made fun if you do it in a crowd of people you like, sure, theres' that. But I think they need to start shifting the systems to be more interesting. Or at least make the casual content more prominent.

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So much this. When combat design is limited to such a small subset of potential design parameters, the primary way to differentiate content is through speed, mechanics overlap, and boss health/damage. (And I guess aesthetics, which are frequently overemphasized at the cost of gameplay.) And because 14 has to look flashy, this approach also introduces accessibility issues due to the visual mess 24-person content in particular creates.

It's like the devs locked themselves in a cage and threw away the key.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

So which is it? I'll let ya'll decide among yourselves. Can't you simply "switch off" Discord, and if so, how is it a issue if comms are needed that you don't need to participate in? How about growing a pair and just being like "f this" if you have a bad encounter?

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How about showing a little compassion rather than living in the 1950s?

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Originally Posted by Infindox

If PF gatekeeping is already happening then the content is a bust. I thought this was going to be something akin to a BA/DRS where people were rewarded for helping each other clear and you could queue whenever you wanted. Harder content but doable. Instead it's a 24 man trial that forces you to use PF (I tried DF and was waiting for longer then was feasible, though some of that is probably due to this being released using the holiday week), and while the game wants you help newbies out, I expect the "only join if you've cleared" PFs and something that rhymes with farce runs. And then I already see a lot of the people who normally raid in Savage not even bothering to get on, because not only is it again the holidays but there's literally nothing else in this patch they are interested in. And don't even get me started on having to use Discord to find parties, you shouldn't even have to do that.
Somewhat nice to me that I see the Japanese side agrees with some comments over here.

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Thats already happening. Those PF already exist.
People do the same as always in PF.
You have now about five different raid plans for the fight, words in PF no one who hasn't doen Savage knows what it means, people just not helping and so on.

I am now at Phase 3 to enrage and man.
The fight is a really fun savage fight but absolutely not what it should have been or probably what was intended.
Body checks, strange pair and split mechanics with visual cluster tells and worst of all shuffling of the raid teams at one point so you land in a different position.
Enrage also seems pretty rough for what the ilvl is and how many mistakes actually can happen.
Those who cleared early were mostly bis but now you have all kinds of ilvls and in PF the ilvl locks are starting to appear.
This fight is straight up harder than the Eden cloud of darkness fight and honestly I am also miffed about yet another high end raid even as someone with savage experience.

Overtuned for what it should be but I guess the streamers will celebrate it because they are mostly high end raiders and Mr. Ozma can give himself a pet on the back for yet another 08/15 savage fight designed (just another boss trial) because apparently he isn't able to do anything else anymore.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Why are you here? Why do you play the game? Because you have such a seething contempt for the average player. If this game is making you that unhappy, maybe you need to reconsider why you play.

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I am here, because I like playing the game. I enjoy having PvP matches with others who also like engaging in PvP. I like learning and doing mechanics, and I like engaging in content, whichever level it is. It's like a sport for me. The point is playing the game itself. Which should also be YOUR motivation. Because if it isn't, that means you are paying for, and spending time, in an activity that you do not like for the activity itself. That's not healthy, that's addiction. We had the same stupid discussion in the "why are people bad and keep staying bad" thread. This kind of behavior, i.e. paying for a game without actually wanting to play the game, is only acceptable with video games (which has some very sinister implications for the state of modern society). If you join a tennis club, buy all the gear for it, but just stand around the court all day, you won't get a nod of approval by the people actually interested in tennis. People will rightly call that out, very likely removing club access, if you become a hindrance in other people's ability to enjoy the tennis provided by the club. However, in video games, the "I don't even like being here" crowd demands everything be catered to them all times with 0 humility and 0 respect for anyone else's time or enjoyment. "You don't pay my sub".

I don't have "seething contempt" for the average player. But I do know what video game addiction looks like, and I do know how comfortable and powerful the delusions are that people have while suffering it. At the end of the day, this is a video game, more importantly, an action combat MMORPG. The point of this game, the point of any game, is the game itself. I find it utterly shocking how many openly state how little they actually like engaging with any battle content that is more than a striking dummy without fail state. With the amount of time some posters here spend arguing, they could have practiced 3 lockouts! Constant demand for "a bit more difficult content", but the slightly increased difficulty of MSQ is now too much, even the easy extreme trials are too much and don't count, nothing ever counts and nothing will ever satisfy these cries. Because fundamentally, they are dishonest. Absolutely, utterly, dishonest. No design or solution can ever satisfy a dishonest requirement.

As I said, the divide is between the people playing "for fun" and those who find playing the game to be fun. The first group is a pain in the butt to have around, because the definition of "fun" is always nihilistic and dismissive of anyone else. It's a selfish and self-soothing, while ultimately self-destructive, behavior. I can experience that from time to time when I zone into a 27 minute ShB+ levelling dungeon in mentor roulette, that has fallen apart because 4 people who are just here to "have fun" managed to draw each other in roulette.

Here is the thing, to get back to the topic. The Chaotic Alliance Raid is good content. The failure is on the community alone, with people joining who are not prepared and not interested to be prepared. Who are lying about their prog point and / or have an overly inflated assessment of their own prog point. 75% clear rate of a mechanic (unless it's the "cursed" pattern) is unacceptably low. Everyone who doesn't like EX level content, well, it's not for you. You aren't the center of the universe. If you aren't interested, you aren't interested, nothing wrong with it, you aren't a lesser being for it. You can buy the rewards with money on the market board, prices will very likely drop. But stop with the endless and dishonest excuses about how rewards you want are gated behind bit more difficult combat content in a combat game you play and pay for.

I find it worth mentioning that "midcore" in FF14 doesn't actually exist. The two difficulties are "standard" and "high-end", and the only meaningful distinction is "if it was in Raid Finder at some point, it's considered high-end."

Quite frankly, the people who want harder content in 14 that doesn't come with the pre-planning, group coordination, and time commitment required by EX and Savage need to find another game to play. Something like the Mage Tower in WoW would be a much better fit for them. I'd suggest solo Deep Dungeons, but that would come with a heavy time commitment in order to find success.

I absolutely see the appeal of that sort of thing. You can join and leave at any time without ruining the content for everyone else who's participating, it's hard enough that you have to shut the second monitor off and actively play the game, punishing enough that an actual fail state exists yet easy enough that the only time your group sees the fail state is when it REALLY DESERVES to fail... honestly, most of Bozja successfully hit this mark and I'm surprised that we got island sanctuaries of all things instead of another Bozja last expansion.

But don't misunderstand me. Eureka and Bozja are technically "standard" content. Probably about as hard as "standard" is going to get in this game, and that's probably a good thing.

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Originally Posted by ArchlordPie

I find it worth mentioning that "midcore" in FF14 doesn't actually exist. The two difficulties are "standard" and "high-end", and the only meaningful distinction is "if it was in Raid Finder at some point, it's considered high-end."

Quite frankly, the people who want harder content in 14 that doesn't come with the pre-planning, group coordination, and time commitment required by EX and Savage need to find another game to play.

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You may well be right assuming the current design philosophy persists, but isn't this problematic for the health of the game? If the population you identify leaves, not only does that hit SE's bottom line, it also magnifies the current schism between the remaining populations.

Can the game not adapt to meet the desires of the players?

A wise man said some time ago. If you want hard and engaging content. Go play Ultimate *Shruge*

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Yes, of course, for people who have spent thousands of hours in a game learning absolutely nothing along the way and making no conscious effort to improve, everything above "dodge this 3 second telegraphed AoE" will feel like an insurmountable challenge. If the only measure of "success" one had during all that time was "clearing one way or another, even if dead on the floor for 80% of the fight", that's the player's own fault. Even normal content has lots of different mechanics that can be learned if anyone actually wants to learn. However, experience tell, that just dividing up into the alliance groups and having 4 people stand on the Atomos platform is too much to ask of players with triple digit clears of this dungeon.

A significant portion of the playerbase has used the fact that the normal content is tuned to be forgiving, as an excuse to not learn any mechanics ever. Alexander raids regularly wipe groups because expecting to learn which platform to pull the adds to, or when to turn into a gorilla, or how to freeze a tornado, is toxic elitism. Aetherochemical Research Facitilty features a 2 person enumeration tower. But why learn that, when you could just let the person explode? With current gear scaling most will survive with a sliver of health, or can be rezzed otherwise. Even dead healers are no problems, tanks at that level can solo. And since "completion" is the only quality measure, there is no difference. Same for the Eden raids, just let the enumerations explode, sacrifice some dps instead of soaking their tether. Just heal and rezz through it, never learn.

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Whilst I can agree somewhat, I actually think the problem is more on the developers than it is on the players, if failing a mechanic is in many cases inconsequential then players simply aren't going to notice in many cases whether they are doing well or not, and there are far more instances in normal content where it is inconsequential than it is consequential, and more often than not the latter is in older, less modern content, and with the volume of instances, you're only going to encounter these mechanics a handful of times. Since playing this game I've perhaps had Fist of the Son 2-3 times, and much of the execution is only going to come with repetitive practice, something that people doing it on-content had the luxury of, and something players doing it a decade later don't really. There's a small handful of mechanics which are consistent, e.g., tethers or stack markers, but a lot of instances can also have gimmick-y mechanics which are almost always exclusive to that specific instance, e.g., A5N, or are only done a handful of times across the many many instances the game now has.

I've had plenty of casual friends that started mid-Endwalker, and didn't learn as much in those several months as to what they did when doing Dawntrail on-content for a meager 3 weeks, simply because they were only getting most of those duties a handful of times, so I think it is less about being conscious of learning and more being put in the position where it actually matters, and in duties where they can, even on an individual level, e.g., vulnerability debuff, I've seen players just laugh at it, pop a bloodbath and then plunge it into irrelevancy. If the incoming damage on the person isn't consequential then bad habits develop, and this is where the problem is on the devs because they are facilitating bad habits to occur.

Even those that are conscious of learning, most of that is only by luxury of doing it on-patch where there's gear rewards used as actual progression to incentivize them going in more than once or twice, like, most people aren't going to go "Man, perhaps I should go do that 1 Alexander turn again so I can make sure I understand that 1 mechanic which someone else did with the monkey.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I've had plenty of casual friends that started mid-Endwalker, and didn't learn as much in those several months as to what they did when doing Dawntrail on-content for a meager 3 weeks, simply because they were only getting most of those duties a handful of times, so I think it is less about being conscious of learning and more being put in the position where it actually matters, and in duties where they can, even on an individual level, e.g., vulnerability debuff, I've seen players just laugh at it, pop a bloodbath and then plunge it into irrelevancy. If the incoming damage on the person isn't consequential then bad habits develop, and this is where the problem is on the devs because they are facilitating bad habits to occur.

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FFXIV dev team has a really long history with ignoring how the players interact with the game. Being the Hunts, that we don't do as it is intended, but never tried to change considering how players actually engaged with them. Or the whole deep dungeon being limited to 2 saves, strongly limiting the possibility to just pick up the content on the fly, yet still continuing with that for Eureka Orthos, which ended being dead after a couple of weeks. And those are the one that just come directly in my mind. The only time they recognize that kind of things is when they can use that to change something. Like how players used the optimal path in dungeons anyway. Instead of giving nice drop advantages in those non optimal path, they removed them entirely.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

FFXIV dev team has a really long history with ignoring how the players interact with the game. Being the Hunts, that we don't do as it is intended, but never tried to change considering how players actually engaged with them. Or the whole deep dungeon being limited to 2 saves, strongly limiting the possibility to just pick up the content on the fly, yet still continuing with that for Eureka Orthos, which ended being dead after a couple of weeks. And those are the one that just come directly in my mind. The only time they recognize that kind of things is when they can use that to simplify something. Like how players used the optimal path in dungeons anyway. Instead of giving nice drop advantages in those non optimal path, they removed them entirely.

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Honestly, the sad part with it really is that they aren't actually solving anything with oversimplification.

Like for example, players could go "These raids (Eden), are really a nightmare on anyone with visual impairment like colorblindness, it's not the most friendly of content in that manner" - and it's like somewhere there is someone with cogs rattling in their brain that goes "Let's just outright make it easier, ignore the complaint entirely, and then add more visual bloat, that'll definitely resolve the issue".

The developers don't really do a good job of understanding some of the issues that people have had, and nor do they understand very well how people interact with that content... Or if they do understand, then they don't like it and simply refuse to adjust, just further letting the problem fester.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Can the game not adapt to meet the desires of the players?

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No, there's an extremely rigid formula that has to be adhered to or the studio disappears. You get one piece of semi-experimental content every 3 years and that's it.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

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Honestly you probably would have fewer arguments against yourself if you stopped with words like "slackers" or "just want to be carried" for the non savage raiders.

I have yet to see people who don't at least try to give their best in this fight. Most know what to do but have still some problems executing it because quite frankly the mechanics themself are unforgiving to solve or at least some of them like towers, the following attack when you have no room to move or the tipptoeing of pairs in the tower mechanic to get the proximity attack.

Also yes this fight is on savage difficulty and not Ex.
The Producer said so and as someone who has done quite a number of savage I also think so.
It is harder than P1S and P2S for example and imo harder than E9S (was that the CoD one?) as a good compraistion.
As someone who has last raided in EW I would put it on P3S difficulty personally minus the firestorm-knockback mechanic because that was just cancer and even P3S gave me more breathing room in between.
It is definitely harder than Golbez at least.

At the end of the day like I already said and what i can agree with you: The raid itself is fun, like really fun.
It is good content if you raid higher difficulty content but even the japanese players are starting to wonder for whom this whole thing was actually designed given the rewards and the starting ilvl seem to imply catch up content for those who DON'T do savage.

Right now you start to get ilvl lockouts (poor me stupidly bought the wrong upgrade item) because people realised that the enrage is not as forgiving as it seemed in streamer videos with their bis gear.

Edit:
And that what this fight should have been.
Giving players the change to get the courage to try the harder content. That encourages them to give their best, fail and learn from it.
But these are just the typical high end Ex to mid Savage sheningan mechanics Ozma is so proud of.
Extremely obtuse to lean, punishing and partly frustrating with so many people.
We just got YET ANOTHER end raid content with a boss and a arena. Truly the thing DT needed after Ex, Savage and Ultimate in a row.
With a hairstly from a DESIGN CONTEST to boot lmao.

Edit2:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...3%81%A6/page11
If I read this one forum post correctly the original designer of the hairstyle cant even get it.
Thats... pretty sad.

This needs to be locked behind Extreme clears.

PF is currently full of people trying to do this raid that don't even do Extreme.

I'm sorry, but this raid isn't for you if you don't even have experience doing midcore content. This is a stepping stone into savage difficulty imo.

Casual > Extreme > Chaotic > Savage > Ultimate.

Gatekeeping sucks, but it seems to be absolutely necessary for what's supposed to be a stepping stone difficulty content. You need to have cleared the previous step first.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Right now you start to get ilvl lockouts (poor me stupidly bought the wrong upgrade item) because people realised that the enrage is not as forgiving as it seemed in streamer videos with their bis gear.

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Just wanted to refute this point. There are logs of clears with over 21 deaths and over 70 damage downs. That seems pretty forgiving to me.

Although a casual player that is working towards becoming more advance by playing Savage and these type of fights, where I see the failure is this.. SE offers these challenges to those players that want and like harder content while ignoring the casual players.. EW relics are a casual content that I will never forgive them for. I have or am working on ALL of the relics from all the expansions.. It's great content in between patches, but SE wants to take the grind away, and offer one fight... We don't even have relic weapons so far in this patch, not even a beginning of one, so that tells me it will be a lazy way of getting them again...

Add more harder content to the game, yes, but don't forget the casual players that pay you a monthly sub to grind and take our life frustrations out in a game.. Don't just make everyone one, two three, rinse and repeat..

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Just wanted to refute this point. There are logs of clears with over 21 deaths and over 70 damage downs. That seems pretty forgiving to me.

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And what was the average ilvl in those runs?
Was it people in bis or 725 at minimum?
That doesn’t say much without that info just that it is salvageable.

It also doesn’t refute my point because I said that it is not as forgiving as people THOUGHT.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Or the whole deep dungeon being limited to 2 saves, strongly limiting the possibility to just pick up the content on the fly, yet still continuing with that for Eureka Orthos, which ended being dead after a couple of weeks.

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EO was dead on arival because you needed to get to floor 100 to get a weapon that's on-par with the Extreme weapon.
For HoH and PotD, you only needed to clear floor 30 (50 for PotD) and it was still on-par with EX, PotD even got updated with another weapon for the next patch's EX trial's IL when you cleared floor 100 (of 200).

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

And what was the average ilvl in those runs?
Was it people in bis or 725 at minimum?
That doesn’t say much without that info just that it is salvageable.

It also doesn’t refute my point because I said that it is not as forgiving as people THOUGHT.

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Objectively asking, in what content do you think 21 deaths and 70 damage downs in the same fight and still not dying to enrage is anything but forgiving? Like, how much more forgiving does it have to be for it to be considered "as forgiving as people THOUGHT"?

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Objectively asking, in what content do you think 21 deaths and 70 damage downs in the same fight and still not dying to enrage is anything but forgiving? Like, how much more forgiving does it have to be for it to be considered "as forgiving as people THOUGHT"?

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Deathcob says hi. Try telling me that Chaotic is harder than UCOB.

People were thinking that it would be as forgiving as the dalriada.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Deathcob says hi. Try telling me that Chaotic is harder than UCOB.

People were thinking that it would be as forgiving as the dalriada.

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Being serious, but I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying people though UCOB would be as forgiving as Dalriada? Or that UCOB is forgiving? Because if you can show me a UCOB log with the same thing as Chaotic, then I would say yes, UCOB is very forgiving as well.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Gatekeeping sucks, but it seems to be absolutely necessary for what's supposed to be a stepping stone difficulty content. You need to have cleared the previous step first.

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This so much... if youre 100 and still run jobgear + NQ crafted, your food is still orange juice (if any at all) AND dont have any idea of stack, spread and light parties... just start with something else.

Nah, chaotic is fun and this is the point of blind prog. Everyone will eventually get things down and it will a breeze. Your loss if you stop doing it.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

And what was the average ilvl in those runs?
Was it people in bis or 725 at minimum?
That doesn’t say much without that info just that it is salvageable.

It also doesn’t refute my point because I said that it is not as forgiving as people THOUGHT.

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We're at the point in this raid tier where you can upgrade your crafted gear with infinitely farmable tomestones and get 730 tomestone gear with the alliance raid coins or infinitely farmable hunt currency.
There is literally no reason to not be 720+ when stepping into the chaotic 24man besides "I couldn't be bothered, teehee".

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

We're at the point in this raid tier where you can upgrade your crafted gear with infinitely farmable tomestones and get 730 tomestone gear with the alliance raid coins or infinitely farmable hunt currency.
There is literally no reason to not be 720+ when stepping into the chaotic 24man besides "I couldn't be bothered, teehee".

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I think this is right, but it emphasizes that this content is designed for raiders exclusively. And the issue with that is that the timing could not have been worse in terms of PR given the fact 80% of us have nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think this is right, but it emphasizes that this content is designed for raiders exclusively. And the issue with that is that the timing could not have been worse in terms of PR given the fact 80% of us have nothing to do.

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Where does it emphasize that it is for raiders only? Because showing up in your mix of 710 normal raid, some 710 crafted that you bought 6 months ago, maybe a chestpiece from the alliance raid, no food and no potions isn't gonna cut it?
The chaotic raid technically only needs 710 to get in, but this is about actually trying and "actually trying" doesn't just mean you try to do your rotation correctly and not stand in the bad.

Every "casual" player is able to quite easily get 720+ ilvl and spend a few thousand gil on consumables, this is not an impossible ask unless you simply can't be bothered to because you "only play for fun".

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Funny, because you don't need discord to do this content either, but it definitely speeds up the process of finding a group versus sitting in PF for awhile. If you want to go the long way, you dont NEED discord, it just significantly saves you time in recruitment.



Ahh yes, the classic retort, complains content is dead or hard to recruit -> someone suggests joining active discords that still prog this content -> materialize the social anxiety answer.

If Discord, which really is just a time saver here, is such an inconvenience for you, then frankly you don't deserve any of the rewards. Let your anxiety roadblock you for as long as you let it. I will never get the social anxiety excuse, while playing a massive multiplayer online game which tends to have goals oriented around party play... talk about living an oxymoron.

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All I'm saying is you may like relying on Discord for as much of the game as you play, not everyone shares that opinion. I personally enjoy being able to play the game without needing an organized Discord and VC for every little thing.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

First, you don't even have to say anything IF you are even getting on a voiced discord channel. The discords are for recruitment purposes of the content, not necessarily for voice comms itself when we are referring to BA DR and other such content.

Also, the issue isn't that someone has a social anxiety of any sort. It's that going from "This is Dying/Dead content -> "Well Recruit via Discord" -> "But my social anxiety" Is an overused excuse with XIV players. If you are so adverse to community driven content and goals, while having crippling social anxiety, than you shouldn't be complaining about the content you seemingly CANT do regardless. Clearly you don't want those drops enough then.

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If the content is unplayable/impractical to recruit for and do without Discord, then it isn't "community driven content and goals." It's content that is literally so dead that someone had to unfortunately make a third party place trying to find people to do it. This is some how a good thing to you how?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Where does it emphasize that it is for raiders only? Because showing up in your mix of 710 normal raid, some 710 crafted that you bought 6 months ago, maybe a chestpiece from the alliance raid, no food and no potions isn't gonna cut it?
The chaotic raid technically only needs 710 to get in, but this is about actually trying and "actually trying" doesn't just mean you try to do your rotation correctly and not stand in the bad.

Every "casual" player is able to quite easily get 720+ ilvl and spend a few thousand gil on consumables, this is not an impossible ask unless you simply can't be bothered to because you "only play for fun".

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Where does the new raid being released that is said to be Extreme/Savage difficulty emphasize that it is for raiders only? Hmm...

The simple fact is the average PF player is not consistent enough for content of this size.
The average PF player is barely consistent enough for 8 man content. Put 24 of them in a group together, and you can guarantee that at least one person every pull is going to mess up and snowball things into a wipe.
It's really not fun at all.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Where does it emphasize that it is for raiders only? Because showing up in your mix of 710 normal raid, some 710 crafted that you bought 6 months ago, maybe a chestpiece from the alliance raid, no food and no potions isn't gonna cut it?
The chaotic raid technically only needs 710 to get in, but this is about actually trying and "actually trying" doesn't just mean you try to do your rotation correctly and not stand in the bad.

Every "casual" player is able to quite easily get 720+ ilvl and spend a few thousand gil on consumables, this is not an impossible ask unless you simply can't be bothered to because you "only play for fun".

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I agree with you. I could run endless hunt trains and the alliance raid and upgrade to 720+, thereby obtaining gear that will be obsolete in a few months that I won't use for any content other than this one chaotic raid.

I am fine with this content not being for me. I would, however, like some content that is for me. And I guess I am a little sore about this partly because my favorite content - PvP - has just been royally effed up by the idiotic changes to hit detection.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Where does the new raid being released that is said to be Extreme/Savage difficulty emphasize that it is for raiders only? Hmm...

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The discussion I replied to was entirely about the enrage timer and ilvl requirement.
Nowhere am I claiming that executing the fight correctly is easy, just that showing up in the absolute minimum ilvl required and consequently wiping to minor mistakes is not "trying your best".

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

If the content is unplayable/impractical to recruit for and do without Discord, then it isn't "community driven content and goals." It's content that is literally so dead that someone had to unfortunately make a third party place trying to find people to do it. This is some how a good thing to you how?

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But you can recruit for said content without discord, it just takes longer without it. But that's also the nature of content that in itself is dated. Ultimates are outside of that for example, but something like DR, BA and Blue Raids are not generally current content and several expansions removed. There is no content in any MMO that transcends multiple years of relavancy and is equally as active as when it first released.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Where does the new raid being released that is said to be Extreme/Savage difficulty emphasize that it is for raiders only? Hmm...

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In fairness I recall it being introduced in the LL as "A Savage Alliance Raid", I think I would have preferred an Extreme Alliance Raid as the test for this concept but hey, I'm not a dev and according to people here I'm a casual too so you know...

I don't have a problem with people joining up in 710 gear and making a good faith effort to clear, I'd rather it were a little more forgiving of minor mistakes but hey, you work with what you've got. For my part I spent the last three or four hours getting more consistent on P1 and prog-ing P2 as best I can when a number of peeps fail the last couple of things in P1. Most of the people I'm finding in PF are in a similar phase and quite welcoming, or just abandon the PF as soon as a wipe happens which sucks but then why would you join "chill prog" if you're not chill?