After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

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Originally Posted by rawker

PLD: Can we also get Convalescence back?

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Warrior handing the Paladin the half-eaten Convalescence Burrito

*only 10%, only self healing effects*

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Originally Posted by rawker

PLD: Can we also get Convalescence back?

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Of course not, that would singlehandedly ruin Warrior.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Of course not, that would singlehandedly ruin Warrior.

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I am looking forward to the day where Holmgang becomes a 300s CD and the collective malding of all WAR players being able to drown out the noise of a running jet engine.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Warrior handing the Paladin the half-eaten Convalescence Burrito

*only 10%, only self healing effects*

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Of course not, that would singlehandedly ruin Warrior.

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PLD: Laughs in Lalafell

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I am looking forward to the day where Holmgang becomes a 300s CD and the collective malding of all WAR players being able to drown out the noise of a running jet engine.

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They'd still have the best invuln, partywide and overall utility.

Gradual normalization of WAR utilities so that it is easier for the spoiled children to digest

making role actions/crossskills was a mistake; identity, cool animations and uniqueness gone
it feels too balanced

bosses need to hit like a truck, less selfheal, I want healers to heal

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They'd still have the best invuln, partywide and overall utility.

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Actually if their invuln would be 300s, it would have parity with Living Dead - which is a self-solving invuln, of which the caviat would only be if you were to use it when you literally cannot attack anything.

If you ask me, at that point this would make Living Dead better (in a vacuum) as you'd need to either invest healer CDs or Equilibrium / Thrill / Bloodwhetting heals to heal the gap in your HP.

Also the actual importance here is that you'd no longer have a 240s invuln to break certain things in a fight that other tanks cannot, which matters a lot more than whatever WAR's kit can do to recover for Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Actually if their invuln would be 300s, it would have parity with Living Dead - which is a self-solving invuln, of which the caviat would only be if you were to use it when you literally cannot attack anything.

If you ask me, at that point this would make Living Dead better (in a vacuum) as you'd need to either invest healer CDs or Equilibrium / Thrill / Bloodwhetting heals to heal the gap in your HP.

Also the actual importance here is that you'd no longer have a 240s invuln to break certain things in a fight that other tanks cannot, which matters a lot more than whatever WAR's kit can do to recover for Holmgang.

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That would go against their "WAR is the source of all problems" narrative however.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Actually if their invuln would be 300s, it would have parity with Living Dead - which is a self-solving invuln, of which the caviat would only be if you were to use it when you literally cannot attack anything.

If you ask me, at that point this would make Living Dead better (in a vacuum) as you'd need to either invest healer CDs or Equilibrium / Thrill / Bloodwhetting heals to heal the gap in your HP.

Also the actual importance here is that you'd no longer have a 240s invuln to break certain things in a fight that other tanks cannot, which matters a lot more than whatever WAR's kit can do to recover for Holmgang.

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Warrior has all that healing in it's basic toolkit, so it doesn't need any of it.
It would just create a failstate that Holmgang doesn't have.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Warrior has all that healing in it's basic toolkit, so it doesn't need any of it.
It would just create a failstate that Holmgang doesn't have.

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A failstate frankly speaking irrelevant in virtually all practical scenarios, thanks to the massive healing potency by Living Dead, you need to basically be asleep to fail the healcheck or use it with no target around.

In most relevant content DRK competes on having powerful mitigation at basically any time with Dark Mind + Oblation on 60s and TBN on 15s and as long as the damage taken over an extended period remains as low as it does in most fights then a lot of healing from Warrior is basically just excess, unnecessary.

Sure Warrior's mitigation is still powerful and the sustain is second to none, but Living Dead having a fail state and the healing being part of the invuln rather than external buttons is not a bad thing, let alone one as bad as many pretend it to be.

The single most important factor in mitigation is recast. This becomes especially important for invulns because they allow you to skip tankbusters and in some cases bypass entire mechanics. Because there's a three minute discrepancy between the shortest and longest invuln recast, your tank composition can completely change the way that you swap through a fight. That's a fairly longstanding balance issue.

The only justification for Holmgang's recast was the fact that it historically had a 6 second duration, which rendered the cooldown usage more difficult on certain tankbusters (i.e. A8S Final Punch/Apocalypse/Beam), and even then it was widely considered to be the most powerful defensive in the game. Despite this, the action was systemically buffed from 5.1 to 6.0 for no reason at all during which time it gained an additional 4 seconds in duration. That's the only reason why we were able to get a fix on Living Dead after 8 years, and even then only because about 10% of the questions submitted for the March 2022 Q+A were complaints about Living Dead and the balance discrepancies that the dev team had needlessly created by buffing Holmgang. But that still doesn't address the global inbalance around tank invulns.

In practice, I think that all tank invulns should all be within 60 seconds recast of each other (and ideally, either the fight design should force you to burn through them faster, or their recasts should be adjusted so that they are less available). If that means adjusting the drawbacks, that's fine. But they do need to take a second look at the invulns and make some significant changes.

While I do agree that WAR is beyond broken in dungeons and do need some tuning, I wouldn't agree that they're superior in all forms of content.

In Thordan (Unreal), a good DRK MT is really good because they can zero out a lot of the untelegraphed cleaves with TBN and Oblation. DRK was also very valuable in P6S and P7S because they could kitchen sink the stack tankbusters and take barely any DoT damage, even during week 1.

Sure, you could argue a WAR could heal through all of that as well, but most WARs I've seen in PF don't, they just hit BW on busters and expect to be invincible, then the DoT chews through them faster than Equilibrium can heal through.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

In Thordan (Unreal), a good DRK MT is really good because they can zero out a lot of the untelegraphed cleaves with TBN and Oblation.

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lmao.

For what it's worth, when I run Thordan (Unreal) with the FC, the MT is a DRK, the OT is a WAR, and I've never heard the healers complain. Or rather, the healers complain about poor old me, the DNC/SMN that fails mechanics. :o:p:):rolleyes:

I agree that a really good DRK is really good. I've healed DRKs this expansion that I virtually didn't need to heal at all. I can relate to that as well because I used to be that DRK in Shadowbringers.

I like differences like that. That's why it disappoints me for WAR to get a partial TBN of its own. Achieving things in different ways at least is a way to differentiate them.

Unless my eyes deceived me, but it looked like Warrior got Paladin's Cover in the benchmark trailer.

The benchmark trailer really isn’t doing wonder for my hopes for healers

Honestly looked like new lily spell, AOE chain, dosis 4/potential new attack and another star themed heal

Oh look at the benchmark video... WAR looks like it has better Cover than PLD.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Oh look at the benchmark video... WAR looks like it has better Cover than PLD.

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Hard to say at this point. It looks like a dash to the target to absorb a hit, could be a single hit like old Shelltron or multiple like Cover. Or it could be something like Passage that covers everything behind the Warrior.

Also not entirely sure if it's gonna be part of Warrior's kit or something specific to just that NPC since Trusts usually have different actions than our jobs.

Either way it's not exactly the most imaginative of new abilities.

Also not like we really need more mitigation, another one just seems excessive because they're certainly not gonna increase incoming damage.

Damn we got to see the new Dark Knight OGCD that will do 600 potency of damage and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Hard to say at this point. It looks like a dash to the target to absorb a hit, could be a single hit like old Shelltron or multiple like Cover. Or it could be something like Passage that covers everything behind the Warrior.

Also not entirely sure if it's gonna be part of Warrior's kit or something specific to just that NPC since Trusts usually have different actions than our jobs.

Either way it's not exactly the most imaginative of new abilities.

Also not like we really need more mitigation, another one just seems excessive because they're certainly not gonna increase incoming damage.

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Even worse. WAR loves to steal the good stuff from other tanks and claim it as their own.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Even worse. WAR loves to steal the good stuff from other tanks and claim it as their own.

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You forgot the part where WAR gets to do it better than the tank they're stealing from.

So expect this cover to have a 60s CD and work on things cover doesn't while providing a heal.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You forgot the part where WAR gets to do it better than the tank they're stealing from.

So expect this cover to have a 60s CD and work on things cover doesn't while providing a heal.

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WAR's Cover:
60s CD
No gauge cost
20% baked in mitigation
Applies a 10% HP shield
Applies lifesteal
Applies a regen

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You forgot the part where WAR gets to do it better than the tank they're stealing from.

So expect this cover to have a 60s CD and work on things cover doesn't while providing a heal.

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To be fair, it's not exactly hard to do Cover better than current PLD Cover. Thing's useless in anything but the cheesiest of challenge runs.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

WAR's Cover:
60s CD
No gauge cost
20% baked in mitigation
Applies a 10% HP shield
Applies lifesteal
Applies a regen

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For safety measures, add Immune to knock-back and draw-in effects.

Memes aside, I don't think that's Cover. WAR can already apply a single target damage reduction/heal/shield/regen to an ally with NF, so the only thing missing is Cover's niche damage transfer effect. I'm not sure that they would go that route.

That looks to be more like PoA, given that the WAR holds the animation until the hit lands. Wouldn't be surprising either, given that PLD regained Bulwark with the 6.3 rework to bring them in line with ToB/DMind/Camo. Expect DRK and GNB to get their magic damage only versions of PoA in 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Memes aside, I don't think that's Cover. WAR can already apply a single target damage reduction/heal/shield/regen to an ally with NF, so the only thing missing is Cover's niche damage transfer effect. I'm not sure that they would go that route.

That looks to be more like PoA, given that the WAR holds the animation until the hit lands. Wouldn't be surprising either, given that PLD regained Bulwark with the 6.3 rework to bring them in line with ToB/DMind/Camo. Expect DRK and GNB to get their magic damage only versions of PoA in 8.0.

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I don't expect anything for Gnb or Drk.
War will just do it better. Warrior is already an expansion ahead and doesn't even need new abilities lmao

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I don't expect anything for Gnb or Drk.
War will just do it better. Warrior is already an expansion ahead and doesn't even need new abilities lmao

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If WAR is an expansion ahead you can look forward to GnB and DrK to be even dumber to play, gotta bring them down to EW WAR levels of gameplay after all.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The benchmark trailer really isn’t doing wonder for my hopes for healers

Honestly looked like new lily spell, AOE chain, dosis 4/potential new attack and another star themed heal

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The WHM/AST ability look like upgrades of there GCD aoe heals

HOT TAKE HERE:
Tanks should not have heals except 1 on a long CD (yes i dislike WAR design). You are tanking. Mid and shields is our job not outheal a healer.
W2W should not be the norm and require skill. You are a casual and not skilled enough = NO W2W. I think W2W is a bane of this game.

Stop giving "win buttons". Easy to learn, hard to master. A full xpac with nothing to learn and be bored out our minds is enough. The skill ceiling we have now is how much boredom can i bear before I fall asleep.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

HOT TAKE HERE:
Tanks should not have heals except 1 on a long CD (yes i dislike WAR design). You are tanking. Mid and shields is our job not outheal a healer.
W2W should not be the norm and require skill. You are a casual and not skilled enough = NO W2W. I think W2W is a bane of this game.

Stop giving "win buttons". Easy to learn, hard to master. A full xpac with nothing to learn and be bored out our minds is enough. The skill ceiling we have now is how much boredom can i bear before I fall asleep.

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I feel like this isn’t a hot take for anyone besides WAR mains who like being able to press one button to delete casual content, one other button to delete savage tank content and do the most damage with the easiest rotation

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

HOT TAKE HERE:
Tanks should not have heals except 1 on a long CD (yes i dislike WAR design). You are tanking. Mid and shields is our job not outheal a healer.
W2W should not be the norm and require skill. You are a casual and not skilled enough = NO W2W. I think W2W is a bane of this game.

Stop giving "win buttons". Easy to learn, hard to master. A full xpac with nothing to learn and be bored out our minds is enough. The skill ceiling we have now is how much boredom can i bear before I fall asleep.

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I agree with the principle of the last sentence. I hard disagree with not giving any tank any healing. As has been proven in other games, a self-healing tank can be a good and fun design. I wouldn't call any of the tanks well designed at present though; or healers.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

I agree with the principle of the last sentence. I hard disagree with not giving any tank any healing. As has been proven in other games, a self-healing tank can be a good and fun design. I wouldn't call any of the tanks well designed at present though; or healers.

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While a self-healing tank can be a good design, it's more a problem of WAR having a little bit of everything.

If we're looking at a healing tank, they usually have high HP and barely any flat mitigation or shields, the gameplay is usually soaking damage with their high HP and then healing back up. WAR can be a healing tank, but they do need to have their flat mitigation and shields removed or lessened. They can't be good at everything while also bringing a bunch of healing, that's how you get unbalance.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If WAR is an expansion ahead you can look forward to GnB and DrK to be even dumber to play, gotta bring them down to EW WAR levels of gameplay after all.

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Take a shot any time an ability reads ''Additional effect''

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While a self-healing tank can be a good design, it's more a problem of WAR having a little bit of everything.

If we're looking at a healing tank, they usually have high HP and barely any flat mitigation or shields, the gameplay is usually soaking damage with their high HP and then healing back up. WAR can be a healing tank, but they do need to have their flat mitigation and shields removed or lessened. They can't be good at everything while also bringing a bunch of healing, that's how you get unbalance.

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I mostly agree, especially on flat mitigation. I don't see a tangible difference between shields and temporary max hit points aside from how it interacts with Doom mechanics though, and don't see a need to completely get rid of them. Shields do need to be used intelligently though, and the shield on BW isn't. The BW shield is a 400 potency throwaway shield that shouldn't even be there. SIO shields makes sense, because of Doom mechanics. Temporary HP would be cooler, but frustrating for healers.

As for WAR just having more HP, we used to. And then ShB the colossal tragedy of tank design happened. Thanks to every tank, getting tank role mastery stapled onto their traits, this very important part of how WAR should have been designed was removed. We also used to have Inner Beast, which provided a big heal and a short duration mitigation. Which was also removed with 5.0...

Why do we even talk about temp HP ruining white hole mechanics when white hole has basically been MIA from the game for nearly half its cumulative lifespan

The last fight with a focus on white hole that isn’t just a “fail a mechanic and get a white hole doom” is as kefka, kefka was 7 tiers ago

Crit healing has always been a bigger bane on white hole than temp HP especially since these days there is almost no distinction between single target and AOE healing because of how free it is

Fondly remembering the time when they launched paladins doing the most dps of the tanks in stormblood and this was one of the few times they nerfed a job in pve and then slammed like 6 buffs into warrior. 2 buffs for dark knight for good measure.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Fondly remembering the time when they launched paladins doing the most dps of the tanks in stormblood and this was one of the few times they nerfed a job in pve and then slammed like 6 buffs into warrior. 2 buffs for dark knight for good measure.

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Back in Stormblood they still did outright nerfs, can't remember if that stance changed in Shadowbringers or Endwalker.

As for why tank healing is so out of whack, I could only hazard a guess. What I would imagine is that they have internal data that shows that failing casual content is a significant driver of sub cancels. Throwing some extra healing at tanks is a way to add a bit of a failsafe to that. If the tank is good and the healer is bad, they can muddle through. If the tank is mid and the healer is mid, the extra tank healing probably helps. If the tank is good and the healer is good, the healer dies of boredom but that healer probably ditches healing instead of cancelling. Or maybe ditches dungeon queues.

Which is bad, but is a less bad outcome than a cancelled sub. This also assumes that the bored healers actually quit, or even exist as a significant plurality. For all we know, their internal data shows that the shb healer changes have led to a positive uptick in the percentage of the games population playing healers, which could be why complaints have fallen on deaf-ish ears.

What’s weird (note I don’t actually want this I’m just making an observation) is that there isn’t really any sort of reciprocation, there is no mechanism for a good healer to compensate for a bad tank, they instead hush also buff tanks survivability to make that not an issue

So a bad healer is compensated for by buffing tank sustain and a bad tank is compensated for by………..also buffing tanks so that no matter how bad you are you can’t die

Healers lose on both fronts and get no power fantasy out of it like tanks do