Okay they weren't lying about the relic

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Originally Posted by Xirean

You are comparing soloing exploring a large open zone with something that has an exclusive title. The two are not even close to the same.



No, not at all. The lack of accessibility comes in a lot of ways for those zones. But at this point it seems like you two really just don't care.

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I’m still genuinely trying to figure out where this accessibility comes from, if not being punished for wanting to do it solo makes it more accessible then it’s inherently a criteria for what counts as accessible

I skipped this relic entirely. I hear Yoshi P praise it because a lot more people did the relic. I have no desire to do it because it’s just story, not even an interesting story. Would’ve rather time traveled with the crystal tower to do relics.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I skipped this relic entirely. I hear Yoshi P praise it because a lot more people did the relic. I have no desire to do it because it’s just story, not even an interesting story. Would’ve rather time traveled with the crystal tower to do relics.

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that's kind of the same logic as netflix claiming the movie that starts autoplaying if you start the app and walk away was a giant record breaking blockbuster

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Originally Posted by DisasterGayofCrisis

Yea I have to join in on the tomestones preferers side. The rest are ABYSMAL to get and no, I don't think the amount of time it takes to do them equals the idea of a worthwhile investment. Tomestones on the other hand I can easily get by just doing roulettes and easily get them, especially since they're comedy which is easy to get.

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I have to get on this band wagon. Tombstones make me happier than doing a savage and getting a nervous breakdown or a grind so hard I quit the game like Zepla did

Sorry, but being able to log in on patch day and spend 30 seconds to buy the tome items and get the weapon day 1 with no effort is not fun. The whole idea behind the relic weapons was they were meant to be a grind. Rather than requiring skill to obtain a strong weapon, you traded time instead.

Just to compare to other weapons, Savage weapons require skill to beat the final floor, Exquisite weapons require you to clear Criterion Savage, another skill check as well as requiring 500 capped tomestones and an item which still requires you to at least clear floor 3 of savage (though it will be obtainable outside savage at some point before 7.0). Current relic require 6000 uncapped tomes, if you were to do one from scratch, though most will do them as each step comes. Just to put the 6000 tomes into perspective, you can do all your roulettes each day and have the weapon within a week.

The main thing that annoys me about this weapon is it is passive. You do not need to go out of your way to obtain it, it is just something you pick up along the way. Because of that, there is nothing inherently special about these weapons. Now, you might claim, you just want it to show off and to that I say....YES. It is a symbol that I have put in the work and dedication to getting the weapon, just like the savage/ultimate weapons are symbols for people that have cleared those fights. The earlier you get the item, the better. You might claim it is just me lording it over everyone else, but that isn't the case. It is a symbol to show my dedication to the game. That time when you could say, yes, I have grinded out 2-3 current weapons and people were amazed about you could stomach the grind.

The relic weapon being a grind was part of the appeal for a lot of people. However, the grind is not for everyone. If it isn't for you, just don't do the weapon. However, another issue people tend to have is they assume you have to sit and grind out the weapon in one hit, which is far from the case. Alot of them you could do in your own time and make progress when you had some spare time. In effect, it was a time filler.

To go onto past weapons being tome dumps, especially the HW relic, that just was not the case at the time of release plus, any tome grind was either complemented by either another, non tome way to get the items (though often a bit slower) or there were other things you had to get alongside the tomes so there wasn't really a benefit to just pure grind out the tomes. Which meant you could spread out that tome grind over a longer time. If required, I could break down all the 'tome' steps on release and show you that it was more than just a tome grind.

We have a tome weapon, we do not need a second one.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

We have a tome weapon, we do not need a second one.

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We don't really, though. The only weapons purchasable with tomes are upgrades off of crafted items, which are always solidly behind on itemlevel and a patch behind, or normal-mode raid weapons, the latter are which are primarily gated by raid drops, not tomes. You can earn more than the tome cost of 6 normal-mode raid weapons in the 7 weeks it takes to farm the drops for a single raid weapon from the once-per-week drop from normal mode raids. Yes, the completed token also drops from savage, but if you're running savage, that weapon's just a pitstop until you're clearing the 4th fight in that tier anyway. This is from the perspective of a sub-savage player, where the gating on that weapon is the 7 weekly drops required, not the tomes.

Relic weapons are the "catch up weapons" for more casual players, and requiring utterly insane grinds like some of the ShB relic steps is not particularly conducive to that role. With tomes, I can at least choose the type of content I want to get them from, which is particularly important if I'm trying to farm a number of them. I remember running into someone on my first ShB relic, several months before EW dropped, when I was farming HW fates for it. We grouped up until I got my 20 Memories for that zone, and as I was getting ready to head out, they indicated that they had approximately 40 of the 200 Memories that they were farming, thrice, for a bunch of relics.

Sorry, but the idea of farming 600 fates with half my kit gone because we're synced to 50-60 is actually torturous. And that was just one step. I'll take the relic grind over that nonsense without a second thought.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Bozja definitely has it's failings, but that's why they should've improved upon them.

The entire ShB relic process gave us alternatives for each step that could be done outside of Bozja. The biggest failing was that the alternative step for DR and just them refusing to future proof DR.

DR should not take 10 mins to queue into it with 8 people, and the timeworns from PotD should be increased + guaranteed.

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They're almost definitely guaranteed after floor 100. It's actually longer to do the later step that drops from HoH than PotD because you have less floors. It's much easier to go through 100-150 which are easy floors and get an almost guaranteed drop, and probably get a few here and there climbing to 100 in the first place, compared to having to get past floor 50 in HoH where the drop rate is abysmal, because then you only have 60 and 70 and 80 to get a drop almost guaranteed, before you're likely to die on floors 80+.

That was my experience at least.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

[...]To go onto past weapons being tome dumps, especially the HW relic, that just was not the case at the time of release plus, any tome grind was either complemented by either another, non tome way to get the items (though often a bit slower) or there were other things you had to get alongside the tomes so there wasn't really a benefit to just pure grind out the tomes. Which meant you could spread out that tome grind over a longer time. If required, I could break down all the 'tome' steps on release and show you that it was more than just a tome grind[...]

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Even if one decide to take on Anima relic purely using poetic (meaning no script, no GC seals, etc), they'd require 299,000 - 305,500 poetics to acquire all 13 weapons as opposed to EW's 6,000 x 19 = 114,000 poetics, which just pales in comparison in term of effort required. If that's still not enough, Anima still have 3 steps that doesn't involve any poetic usage.

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Originally Posted by Kaedys

We don't really, though. The only weapons purchasable with tomes are upgrades off of crafted items, which are always solidly behind on itemlevel and a patch behind, or normal-mode raid weapons, the latter are which are primarily gated by raid drops, not tomes.

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To point out, again, the tome weapon will be upgradable outside of savage at some point before 7.0, though only to i660, which is inline with every other expansion.

On the case of relic weapons, they have NEVER been classed as catch up weapons. The grind for them was too much for them to be classed as catch up weapons, until the current weapons that is. The catch up weapons would have been the older tome weapons, in this case, spending 500 tomes of causality and clearing P8 4 times for a weapon, which you can then use to clear p12, this is assuming you don't want to use crafted weapons.

The only reason they feel like catch up weapons now is because they are so easy to get. The only reason you don't see the tome weapons as a reasonable option is because the relic weapons are so easy to get. You just have to wait a bit before the step gets released compared to the savage weapons. However, why should the tome weapon be an inferior option to the relic? Why is it that the last step of the relic has made that weapon all but redundant. The tome weapon was there for those who didn't want to do savage and who didn't want to spend the time doing a relic weapon, but now, that is gone.

And, to talk about the ShB fate grind, you could have done the grind in Bozja and progressed in there, which you needed to do anyway, so it was more efficient, at least for your first weapon. You also aren't going to shock me in people doing multiple relics as I am also someone who does multiple relics and does, infact have complete collections of all ARR, HW, ShB and soon EW with a fair amount of progress made on the SB weapons. I am a glutton for a good grind and the relics provided me with that grind. It was always something I could work on between patches. Whilst people were out there crying they had nothing to do, I was making progress on my relic weapons. Which leads onto another point. The whole, there is nothing to do. Yes, that is because they took out one of the biggest sources of people's time, grinding out a relic. Again, this isn't something you needed to necessarily hardcore grind out, but you could make progress at a steady pace and easily get the weapon before the next patch.

The weapon just doesn't do what it is meant to do.

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Originally Posted by Arlythe

This
When I want mindless grinding, I might as well play WoW

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See?
This is why the game its on the current state.

No grind.
No difficulty
Less content per patch
Boring jobs etc.

people say they dont want mindless farming "like wow" but do they understand that everything being locked behind daily's is what wow players considered mindless farming...

hey FFXIV community, hate to break it to you, but what do you think daily roulettes are? at least in wow the "mindless farm" changes when a new patch drops, we are stuck running praetorium till the end of time.

calling the forced dailys "roulettes" doesn't make them any less your maw daily's. at least in wow you did them to get to better content, in ffxiv you do them to burn out and quit for 4 months at a time

My issue with some of the older relics is how much of a pain they are to do one or two expansions later when the zones etc don't have the critical mass that made them reasonable when they were new.

This is why I have more Lux weapons than any other relic - because all of those steps are very accessible.

This time around they went a bit too far, and made it all tomestones.

I think I would have liked to see a couple of steps that used the duty finder, and pushed us into repeating some of the dungeons and trials from 6.x. Thanks to roulettes, they'll always be accessible and would give a little more meat to the questline.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

See?
This is why the game its on the current state.

No grind.
No difficulty
Less content per patch
Boring jobs etc.

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They don't want mindless grinding but they'll gladly do roulettes every single day for tomestones and other rewards.

Who's going to tell them that roulettes are also mindless grinding but timegated to one time each a day ?

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

See?
This is why the game its on the current state.

No grind.
No difficulty
Less content per patch
Boring jobs etc.

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Play a different game

Both relic formats have some disadvantages.

I disliked how some of the old relic steps weren't focused on the player having fun with current expansion but rather populating old boring content so it pops for others faster.
New format at least let's you do whatever is fun for you, however the amount of tomes needed is very low and the relic lost all sense of feeling rare or special.

My ideal format would be similar to ARR books, slowly taking you to every single part of the expansion for example: do these 3 specific fates in EW areas, do these 2 hunt marks, do 2 dungeons, do a path of variant dungeon, do beast tribe quest, raid, trial etc.

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Originally Posted by Battler-Ushiromiya

Play a different game

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Yeah sorry I thought I was playing a """""""classic""""""""" MMORPG and not a poor version of Second Life.

The second SE tries to do something different this forum gets infested with " But Im having anxiety... I don't want this content because looks hard and feels overwhelming. pls nerf"

You want to do the Nier raids 3 times each? Or do a level 80 dungeon 10 times? Or do every single level 80 trial? PER WEAPON?
Or even better, make it doable by Blue Mage so everyone makes up a 4-BLU party to burn through the most efficient dungeon over and over again?

No thanks. At least this way I can do different contents through the roulettes and get the other daily bonus as well.

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Originally Posted by TakumiHarada

You want to do the Nier raids 3 times each? Or do a level 80 dungeon 10 times? Or do every single level 80 trial? PER WEAPON?
Or even better, make it doable by Blue Mage so everyone makes up a 4-BLU party to burn through the most efficient dungeon over and over again?

No thanks. At least this way I can do different contents through the roulettes and get the other daily bonus as well.

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yeah my favorite way to play the game is not at all as well /scarscasm..

We are getting new relic zones thank you SE. Eureka and Bozja have some of the best content this game has to offer in my opinion. Just took a Hali alt though Eureka for her WHM relic and plan on doing BA with her at some point. Hit 25 in Bozja yesterday and Dalraida is up next. Never gets old for me.

This relic grind has been a real disappointment for me personally and I'm glad they are at least for 7.0 going back to instanced zones.

Dailies and roulette are literally the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

On the case of relic weapons, they have NEVER been classed as catch up weapons. The grind for them was too much for them to be classed as catch up weapons, until the current weapons that is. The catch up weapons would have been the older tome weapons, in this case, spending 500 tomes of causality and clearing P8 4 times for a weapon, which you can then use to clear p12, this is assuming you don't want to use crafted weapons.

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This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it. I mean, let's be honest here: clearing 60 different fates from 2 expansions prior just for a single step of a single relic is neither engaging content nor even remotely an "achievement", except perhaps of mindless persistence, and that's an order of magnitude more if you're farming multiple of these relics. And I think that's the piece lost in all of this. It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done, and that was for a single relic, and the mere thought of doing another has made it so that I've gotten through exactly one step of my next ShB relic in all of EW. And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead. You can get ~750-850 tomes per day if you clear all of your roulettes, but you'll only get about 400-600 per week if you just do the roulettes to cap the gated tomestone, plus maybe clear the normal raid floor and the a-raid, so 10k is ~2 weeks if you focus grind it and ~15-25 weeks if you do it passively. And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

Flowchart developing :3

Easy to do and the investors will be happy, well and some players obviously.

I can just shrug tho~

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Originally Posted by Kaedys

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider.

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Not done a savage raid since the start of ShB. Doesn't mean I'm not capable, I just don't have the necessary time to effectively do it (I work a shift pattern) and i don't feel like trying to do it through PF.

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Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later?

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Where did I say they had to? I mentioned P8N so that you can get the tome weapon from the uncapped tomes, but I never mentioned P8S as a 'catch up' weapon.

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And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

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But that is what a catch up weapon is. It is designed as a weapon that is easy to get so that, if someone stops playing for a while and needs better gear, they have a quick way to get one. That has historically been the tome weapon. Once the current tier has been out for a while, the tome weapon, for the current tier, becomes easier to get, making it another easy catch up weapon for someone to get.

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The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content.

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So does the tome weapon.

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It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content.

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Which is true, it, however, traded people's skill in clearing said content for time invested.

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It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

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Weirdly enough, this isn't WoW and, whilst I have no experience with the items there, there is no reason why both have to follow the same model, however, the tome weapon is what fits that definition.

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The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it.

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Which is the issue here.

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It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done,

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And that is how it is meant to be tackled. Something you can work on around other things.

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And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

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Only if you want those weapons to glam. Tell yourself, are you really going to use it? You don't seem like the person who cares about the content, just the glam at the end.

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Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead.

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Whilst that is a better option, I am of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to get a head start in the quest, just because you happen to have tomes in your inventory, or at least, only give a minimal increase. If you want tomes, you need to have something else to grind out on the side to step away from the mindless tome grind. Think the umbrite/crystal sands step for the ANima weapon.

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And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

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They always make steps easier when they aren't relevant anymore, so this is par for the course. However, the current relics are so easy to get, they haven't nerfed a single stage of it. Tells you something when that happens.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

We are getting new relic zones thank you SE. Eureka and Bozja have some of the best content this game has to offer in my opinion. Just took a Hali alt though Eureka for her WHM relic and plan on doing BA with her at some point. Hit 25 in Bozja yesterday and Dalraida is up next. Never gets old for me.

This relic grind has been a real disappointment for me personally and I'm glad they are at least for 7.0 going back to instanced zones.

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They confirmed we're getting new exploratory zones but I haven't heard anything about relics and if they will be involved or separate questlines. Is there an interview somewhere where it was mentioned? I try to keep up on the post-Fan Fest interviews but sometimes there's one I don't see.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They confirmed we're getting new exploratory zones but I haven't heard anything about relics and if they will be involved or separate questlines. Is there an interview somewhere where it was mentioned? I try to keep up on the post-Fan Fest interviews but sometimes there's one I don't see.

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It has not been mentioned one way or the other.

Considering the Field Operations zone appears to be a late content add to the expansion, I suspect the relic questline will be independent of it. That doesn't mean that the zone won't be an option for getting whatever is needed for the relics, just that it won't be a primary factor for them unlike Eureka and Bozja.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Sounding like Dawntrail is going to have more FFXI callbacks than just the alliance raid.

Maybe we'll get FFXI relic weapons too...

Step 1 Find rusty relic weapon, Collect 400 ancient currency items and acquire 3 rare crafting materials. Trade to an NPC and wait 1 game day
Step 2 Collect 1400 of a different ancient currency than step 1 along with a collection of weapons from the same weapon type and trade to an NPC and wait 2 Earth Hours
Step 3 Collect 6100 of yet another ancient currency different than the previous 2 steps. Complete tasks to acquire item needed from specific NMs. Trade to an NPC and wait 1 Earth Hour
Step 4 Collect 10,000 of the ancient currency used on step 1 along with 2 specific drops from specific enemies. Find the hidden ??? clicky spot in the world that is different for each weapon. Trade stuff there to get finished weapon.

Oh I can already see the rivers of tears this would create with a certain part of the player base. :3

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Other than the arbitrary time gates, this sounds a lot like previous relics. Collect currencies or items from specific FATEs, or in the case of Eureke NMs, then turn in for a weapon.

Also just going to link the Everquest Magician relic quest for people that think they want a grind.
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...html?quest=760

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Originally Posted by Kaedys

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

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Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, they should be achievements, just as much as clears and savage BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame (and to be able to do extremes and savages you can prog/clear these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

Edit: The only thing required by the game from the player that wants to engage in hardcore contents, is the min. IL, which is easily reached with a crafted set in the case of extremes and savage. For ultimates, well, they still need to clear the tier of the ultimate they want to do, thus acquiring gear sets and items to prepare for the ultimate in question, at this point in time, most BiS pieces to tackle an ultimate are from dungeons anyways, this last step of the relic isnt even the optimal weapon anymore because of the way the status distribuition is made.

So my question to you is: If you believe a relic is a catch up weapon, what endgame content does the game have that the player can't access unless they have a relic in hand? If the answer is "none" its because there's simply no catching up the relic offers (and if you say savage/ultimate then you are objectively wrong, since they are not required to enter/clear said content).

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Originally Posted by Jargal

Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, its an achievement as much as a clear and BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame, to be able to do extremes and savages (you can easily prog these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

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Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Other than the arbitrary time gates, this sounds a lot like previous relics. Collect currencies or items from specific FATEs, or in the case of Eureke NMs, then turn in for a weapon.

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Well... the part left out is in FFXI the currency had to be obtained from Dynamis which at the time was accessible once per week as basically a large scale raid that I think had a player cap around a full Bozja Instance. Not sure if they ever changed that later since the last time I played was during the cycle of that mini expansion with the naughty moogles.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

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Its not a catch up because its not required to do anything in the game, you don't need BIS to clear msq dungeons and trials, or to progress in the main parts of the game, period. Thats not what the definition of "catching up" means. The relic isn't even necessary to start the next expansion, you can just dump poetics on the augmented tomeweapon after the new expansion drops. What is your point? BIS in FFXIV is more of a achievement and rights to brag and nothing more. You do more damage in the msq content, sure, but its not required to access/clear them.

Imagine telling a player: "hey go do the entirety of Hildibrand's quest lines, its trials and farm 6000 tomestones to get the BiS weapon of the expansion" a couple of weeks prior to the next expansion, as opposed to: "save up to 600 poetics to buy a weapon 5 ILs lower than the final step of the relic at the new expansion launch" and have the audacity to claim that the former is a "catch up" form. Are you serious?

catch up
phrasal verb of catch
1.
succeed in reaching a person who is ahead of one.
"he stopped and waited for Lily to catch up"

There's no one ahead of anyone by having BIS, you are not getting any more access to things by having savage BIS. Everyone has access to the same things, relic/savage wpn in hand or not.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Also just going to link the Everquest Magician relic quest for people that think they want a grind.
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...html?quest=760

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Also the good old enchanter snake stick. Most of the EQ epics had you camping something for days just to do the quests that let you start the epic quests.

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Originally Posted by Jargal

snip

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Why is "being required to access content" a necessary quality to call something a catch up weapon? I think you just made that up to argue semantics. Someone with BiS is ahead in ilvl over someone who isnt, the last step of the relic lets them catch up to that ilvl without doing savage.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Why is "being required to access content" a necessary quality to call something a catch up weapon? I think you just made that up to argue semantics. Someone with BiS is ahead in ilvl over someone who isnt, the last step of the relic lets them catch up to that ilvl without doing savage.

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LETTHEMCOOK. The mental gymnastics are strong

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Why is "being required to access content" a necessary quality to call something a catch up weapon? I think you just made that up to argue semantics. Someone with BiS is ahead in ilvl over someone who isnt, the last step of the relic lets them catch up to that ilvl without doing savage.

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Catch up gear is precisely the fastest and easiest way to access content a new player wouldn't be able to with lower IL, allowing them to do anything the game offers, the moment they have access to do/clear anything there is to do at endgame or at the launch of a new expansion, what other catching up is there left? They are caught up, the end.
Relic was never a catch up form, but is another means to get a single BiS piece (I say piece because you still have suboptimal gearpieces on your body, that you only can get by doing savage).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9P-9xnbAAAHoCF.jpg

I have done my fair share of complaining for Eureka back in the day and I certainly griped over Bozja in some aspects (was not a fan of the RNG), but I would prefer doing either of those things for relics than the lame tome grind we got this expansion. In retrospect, despite all my fussing, I miss playing in those zones and it felt good working towards the weapon. Here in Endwalker, grinding for the relics doesn't feel nearly as gratifying. They're just symbolic of me running content that I do normally over and over.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Dailies and roulette are literally the same thing.

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1. You can still do roulettes without the bonus. So no they're not "literally" the same thing. They're "literally" 2 different things.
2. "Other daily bonus" means poetics/comedy/the small amount of gil.
At least when I don't have anything else to do, and there's no hunt trains going on, I can pop an expert roulette or even a 90 roulette if I'm bored enough, and still make some progress towards MW.

EW had everything confined in the zones, and the grind was quite fun during 4.x, but nowadays it's highly dependent on going in at the right time to spawn and kill NMs efficiently.
ZW/AW were awful during the dungeon/trial steps, in the sense that you were (and still are) limited to specific contents in a very specific order.
RW was a mix of the bad bits from both. Go to the alliance and normal raids >10 times each (thank god it was only once), and then for each weapon, grind old FATEs/pointless trash enemies inside Bozja, speed-run Antitower/Hells' Lid, and repeat CLL & DR over and over again.

Disclaimer here, I got most of the ZW/AW and all RW, and I still prefer MW's style.
And since the 7.x weapon is going to go back to Eureka/Bozja style, I hope the one-off steps would be confined in the area, and the repeated steps would be like MW, using only the 2nd tomestone.

It's perfect, given some people's dungeon skills, because with some dps, you can do just as fast in the Trust system, without the failures. It's a sick end to the expansion.

Between the fragile tanks, the dps who can't provide good dps despite their stuff and the heals who can't heal more than one pack of mobs. And of course, no materia.

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/f8...jpg?1651142758

is it just me or is the sam relic pretty much one of the fan made weapons (that wasn't picked) with a particle effect added?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

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I don't even know if that's true, but it sounds AWESOME.