[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion. I think what induces this amount of vitriol on the forums specifically, is that one, you're associated with your ingame avatar here to an extent that doesn't happen on other sites and two, the writers played fast and loose with the lore of the world that avatar lives in to complete their emotional storytelling. It seems to me that endwalker was written partly backwards like a Nier game with the player's emotions in mind. When it's like that, analysing sets of dialogue is just an exercise in frustration, because framing and music and other aesthetic elements aren't just important, but might have more weight than what characters say and do. Ultima Thule is this writing style made manifest, and it worked for most people I interact with online, (mostly reddit and youtube comment sections).

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far. The other is "flow" which paints Venat as a gentle observer watching the souls of mortal cycling through the Eitherial sea for the sake of a "tomorrow", which I intrepret to be the day we finally meet Meteion. All this including Yoshi-p crying again and again when watching the Hydaelyn confrontation seems to suggest to me that the game uses all of the tools at it's disposal to make liking and accepting Venat and her actions, "right", from an emotional and thematic standpoint. I understand how that might not work for poster on a lore forum, but I think the emotiononal "go with the flow" angle is the only real way to "get" endwalker the way millions of others have, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

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I think part of the issue here is yes, they do use a lot of emotional and thematic framings to make Venat seem right. But that’s the part that doesn’t sit well with people. This is supposed to be a story that has grey morality. Instead they have us support someone who committed mass genocide, but not only that she is revered to as a hero for it. Where’s the greyness?

Also just a side comment but the game definitively doesn’t have millions of players xD it’s far less than that especially now.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think part of the issue here is yes, they do use a lot of emotional and thematic framings to make Venat seem right. But that’s the part that doesn’t sit well with people. This is supposed to be a story that has grey morality. Instead they have us support someone who committed mass genocide, but not only that she is revered to as a hero for it. Where’s the greyness?

Also just a side comment but the game definitively doesn’t have millions of players xD it’s far less than that especially now.

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I guess i just never really wanted or needed the story to be grey or to be presented as such. I haven't really done much post endwalker content because I'm replaying the story on my alt(and I'm in the middle of shadowbringers so I'm nearing the parts of the story that caused the blood feud on the forum as I understand it). I understand there's a quest where you get a dialogue choice to say Venat is wrong, but again, to me, weighing the dialogue as the end all be all of how we as the player are supposed to feel about things just doesn't work from me. If we were talking about an actual historical event or a deeply serious philosophical proposition, then I would engage in that mode of analysis, but in my experience, no story with identifiable themes survives such an analysis. It isn't even the first time in the series that the end of a utopic civilization and it's people was deemed neccesary for the sake of the plot and themes.

Maybe not concurrent players, but there are around 40 million unique registrations, and it would still technically be millions of only 5% of those finished endwalker. While Venat is a sticking point on this forum, there are also plenty of other things that sour endwalker for people, the comic relief bunnies being one of them. I enjoy most aspects of endwalker, but ffxiv isn't my lifegame like it is to many others, and i believe the closeness many feel to it's world made it inevitable that some would be deeply pained when Ishikawa took the wheel and went the direction she did.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion.

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While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

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You’re absolutely right, the posts from some of these people being downright disrespectful to someone for simply making a video on Venat was downright horrendous. Thank goodness the mods got rid of them because it was crazy how rude people were being towards the creator of the video.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

I guess i just never really wanted or needed the story to be grey or to be presented as such. I haven't really done much post endwalker content because I'm replaying the story on my alt(and I'm in the middle of shadowbringers so I'm nearing the parts of the story that caused the blood feud on the forum as I understand it). I understand there's a quest where you get a dialogue choice to say Venat is wrong, but again, to me, weighing the dialogue as the end all be all of how we as the player are supposed to feel about things just doesn't work from me. If we were talking about an actual historical event or a deeply serious philosophical proposition, then I would engage in that mode of analysis, but in my experience, no story with identifiable themes survives such an analysis. It isn't even the first time in the series that the end of a utopic civilization and it's people was deemed neccesary for the sake of the plot and themes.

Maybe not concurrent players, but there are around 40 million unique registrations, and it would still technically be millions of only 5% of those finished endwalker. While Venat is a sticking point on this forum, there are also plenty of other things that sour endwalker for people, the comic relief bunnies being one of them. I enjoy most aspects of endwalker, but ffxiv isn't my lifegame like it is to many others, and i believe the closeness many feel to it's world made it inevitable that some would be deeply pained when Ishikawa took the wheel and went the direction she did.

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As far as the grey morality goes i think the issue is what the devs themselves have stated they wanted the story to be received as grey and having grey morality. That’s why a lot of people feel led on with Endwalker. They were promised something Endwalker just didn’t deliver.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

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Yeah, I think it's interesting how some of them absolutely despise being called the minority opinion, when some posters here have admitted to things like echoes of etheiris's channel being a "safe space" for people critical of Venat. Feeling like you need a safe space while claiming to hold the opinions of a silent majority is very sussy behaviour. This is why I'm genuinly concerned, because it seems these people's reaction to endwalker and it's discourse has twisted their psychology to a point which i don't just concider unhealthy, but socially ruinous. I first researched this because someone argued with me on a youtube comment like their lives depended on it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a pretty sensitive person, so I was actually kinda shaken by the response. Like, it's fine to have an unpopular opinion, but that's an inherently painful thing to some extent, as endwalker sort of points out. I don't believe in retributitive justice, and there are pretty much no interpersonal safe spaces for that position that doesn't collapse when someone has a bad day. I accept that and move on. I don't try to convince myself I have an army of allies in the shadows. If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

Yeah, I think it's interesting how some of them absolutely despise being called the minority opinion, when some posters here have admitted to things like echoes of etheiris's channel being a "safe space" for people critical of Venat. Feeling like you need a safe space while claiming to hold the opinions of a silent majority is very sussy behaviour. This is why I'm genuinly concerned, because it seems these people's reaction to endwalker and it's discourse has twisted their psychology to a point which i don't just concider unhealthy, but socially ruinous. I first researched this because someone argued with me on a youtube comment like their lives depended on it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a pretty sensitive person, so I was actually kinda shaken by the response. Like, it's fine to have an unpopular opinion, but that's an inherently painful thing to some extent, as endwalker sort of points out. I don't believe in retributitive justice, and there are pretty much no interpersonal safe spaces for that position that doesn't collapse when someone has a bad day. I accept that and move on. I don't try to convince myself I have an army of allies in the shadows. If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

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The issue is with the terminology of minority vs majority with people assuming there’s nothing in the middle. Tbh though idk what it is with this trend of victim shaming. Someone i know literally had their own personal life harassed because they didn’t agree with Venat’s actions(as well as doxxing). It’s just that people here have an obsession with attributing any opinion they dislike as being in the minority as to silence others. We literally have people in here complaining about people talking about Venat….in a thread that is literally about a video talking about Venat. You can see the people in this very thread trying to silence others. It’s ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The issue is with the terminology of minority vs majority with people assuming there’s nothing in the middle. Tbh though idk what it is with this trend of victim shaming. Someone i know literally had their own personal life harassed because they didn’t agree with Venat’s actions(as well as doxxing). It’s just that people here have an obsession with attributing any opinion they dislike as being in the minority as to silence others. We literally have people in here complaining about people talking about Venat….in a thread that is literally about a video talking about Venat. You can see the people in this very thread trying to silence others. It’s ridiculous.

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I used to follow the attack on titan manga, so I know what a more evenly divided fandom looks like. I think it's legitimate to point out which positions you think a majority/minority of the fandom holds, because it's important as to whether the writers did their job correctly.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

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I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

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People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions. You can be right and mean, though it would be nice to have one without the other.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions.

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Nor did I remotely imply it was. Not really the point I was making at all. The rightness or wrongness of the positions being espoused really isn't important for our context here, at least for the time being.

Besides, most of what gets discussed about Endwalker is subjective anyway. For example, let's say I take a look at Zenos and go, "he was a really messed up dude." That would be an opinion I've formed based on information provided to me by the story, yes? If that opinion is not rooted in facts provided by the story, sure, it could be wrong in the sense that it was spawned by a lack of understanding. But what if it isn't? What if that opinion is rooted firmly in the information provided by the game and other canon sources? Suddenly it's a lot harder to say it's objectively wrong. Someone could disagree with it, but that wouldn't make it objectively wrong. The difference between not agreeing with something and it being objectively wrong is rather significant.

Stalking, harassment, death threats, doxxing, and/or worse are inexcusable on any front - any front. That said escalation is a two-way front - if someone reacts negatively to criticism (fair or otherwise), the best response is not to antagonize them. Animosity doesn't reach this level overnight, and you cannot control the reactions of others. Acknowledge their viewpoint as valid, state your disagreement, and move on - don't tell them they're wrong, "blindly conforming to a biased narrative," "not thinking critically," etc. It's possible for people to go in with the same information and reach different conclusions, and that's not indicative of intelligence or wisdom on anybody's part.

Private discussion venues are a very double-edged sword. Only one viewpoint tends to be promoted over all others, with those others being excluded (naturally or by moderation), turning it into an echo chamber. Echo chambers are very dangerous because without dissenting opinions the one being echoed tends to be radicalized, which can cause severe backlash when it gets out because it's so radical. People with these radical opinions then take the backlash as validation their opinions are correct, creating a feedback loop... and commiserating with others along with videos that exist pretty much just to validate their opinions don't help.

I can't speak to other discussion venues, because I completely avoid them out of awareness of just how toxic they are or can become. Even here I admit I've not been a "perfect angel who can do no wrong," have no interest in further opening old wounds, and am sorry for anything I've said that hurt anyone.

... but to pretend one side of the fence is wholly to blame for the toxicity is absolutely disingenuous. Absolutely.

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

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Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far.

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Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

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I mean, the forum is a public open space to talk about lore. I don't see why people should stop talking about lore topics. Even if the topic is old. It just seems to me that FF14 player base love to dismiss any critics of the story, especially on fan-favorite characters.

People complained about Y'shtola, Hien and Lyse a lot back in the day. It doesn't even matter if the critics are legit or not. It just that some people are way to insecure about their opinion on the story and usually make it hard for people that are less...intense to discuss about the topic.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Is that the "Wings of Hope" song? I honestly never connected that to Hydaelyn. It only ever comes up in that final fight against the Endsinger and so seems connected to Meteion for me – a somewhat abstract, more hopeful vision of what she could be instead of this.

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That's a fair interpretation. I used to think the same, but i think it sort of covers WoL, post-fight Meteion and Hydaelyn all at once. My point is really that songs like Flow would essentially be intentionally torturous if the devs thought hating Venat was a serious position a significant proportion of the fanbase would take. They work for me because the greyness of the story isn't supposed to be a hard-utilitarian one, but a kinda emotional one, since a lot of players end up interpersonally liking Emet and Venat.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

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Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

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You don't have a point, that's the general core of all this, well that and not knowing what an opinion is. The topic has remained the same since the release of endwalker and what little additional information has come out continues to disprove the stuff you guys say, when this is brought up in discussions you lot get pretty to people. Not only that you don't tend to keep it to threads about this particular topic. A final point is you're adding nothing new to the talks, at this point you may as well just copy past post from other threads. Calling me addicted is hilarious though, you have been at this for years and this conversation extends back to Shadowbringers.

You don't have to mince words but you also complain that others are mean to you. When you and your are the ones that started that because people disagreed with your assessment of the story we all saw. So you've got a choice, either be more respectful to people or at the very least drop the topic until some information that comes out that supports your view, since you clearly can't handle dissent without crying harassment, like a child. You seem to mistake what is being denounced. The video has the tone of someone who's mad that people don't agree with their view of the story and comes across like that. But I guess since critical analysis is in the title so that must make it legitimate, right?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

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Clearly there is a point here, because you and many others haven’t been able to disprove it. When provided evidence that refute *your* claims, you whine that it doesn’t count or you don’t want to watch the videos. And yes, you are addicted. You come into a thread clearly meant for a discussion about Venat just to complain about people talking about her. Also you tried to claim before i’ve been constantly here posting about Venat yet i’ve literally been unsubbed for a year and a half almost 2 years. You’re delusional and it’s genuinely kind of creepy that you seem to see me everywhere, might want to get that looked at.

As for “others being mean to me.” I’m not talking about petty insults or squabbles. I’m talking about obsessive Venat fans going so far out of their way as to threaten sexual harassment, go forward with doxxing peoples personal lives, and much more. Name a time we’ve done anything of the sort i’ll wait. As for your choices, what if i don’t adhere to them? Who decided to make you the lore authoritarian? You literally don’t even know common lore stated in game factually proven.

Lastly about the tone, seeing as you’re the only person to even comment on that i’m going to assume that’s purely bias talking, especially because upon hearing the video, the creator seemed to maintain a neutral vocal stance and merely brought up in game evidence to support their claims. It seems like at this point you’re grasping for straws. I would suggest you quit the flailing, take a break from lore or the forums in general and realize how delusional you sound here. Especially when you try to claim i sound like a child when in reality you and many others dissent comes from “DONT TALK BAD ABOUT MOMMY D:” Get real.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I mean, the forum is a public open space to talk about lore. I don't see why people should stop talking about lore topics. Even if the topic is old. It just seems to me that FF14 player base love to dismiss any critics of the story, especially on fan-favorite characters.

People complained about Y'shtola, Hien and Lyse a lot back in the day. It doesn't even matter if the critics are legit or not. It just that some people are way to insecure about their opinion on the story and usually make it hard for people that are less...intense to discuss about the topic.

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The thing about it is this subject isn't really about discussion or debate; the people who bring this subject up time and again are just looking for validation of their opinions. As a public discussion space people are free to bring up whatever topics they want, but should have the wisdom to recognize when irreconcilable differences of opinion exist and the maturity to not go around kicking hornet's nests.

Some people like and enjoy the game in spite of criticism; that doesn't make them lesser, but said critics often espouse this idea when their criticism is rebuffed or not validated. People are passionate about the game, on both sides of the fence; I don't think that's a bad thing, but there has to be a point where you recognize you aren't convincing anyone of anything (preaching to the choir doesn't count) and discussion is unproductive. 1.5 years in should be well past that point.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As a public discussion space people are free to bring up whatever topics they want, but should have the wisdom to recognize when irreconcilable differences of opinion exist and the maturity to not go around kicking hornet's nests.

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And i’m willing to say both sides are guilty of this. My issue however, and it’s one you don’t seem to want to call out, is when posters come into threads like this where the title very clearly describes what the discussion will be about, and being upset about it and saying “ugh why are you still talking about this?!” Don’t enter. It’s literally that simple. I cannot fathom outside of argument addiction why people who don’t want to talk about a topic come into a thread talking about that same topic.

Id also like to add however, something i want to emphasize is the amount of people commenting both here and in the videos how they finally felt safe to open up about their opinions on the story.Yes, 1.5 years later people are only feeling comfortable to talk about this topic now and only because they have a safe space to bring it up. look at the comments in the videos and in the endwalker thread to see the countless people commenting something along the lines of "omg i thought i was the only one" or "thank goodness theres finally a safe space for me to talk about this i thought i was crazy." Does this not raise red flags on the kind of putting down people in this community like to do when it comes to other peoples opinions? Thats not even a story problem either, its with any criticism for this game period.

As far as this topic goes, someone made a video about it. Someone who saw the video decided to share it here. People then sought to put down the video(without even watching it) or start complaining that it even exists.Realistically none of this even needed to blow up if people had just come in(if they really felt forced to) and said thats a nice video, i dont really agree with it but it is what it is. Instead people had to insult and put down the effort put into it which is just childish.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc.

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Venat's story ended over a year and a half ago in 6.0 and there's not really been anything new to talk about that since then in regards to her or the Ancient storyline. The same arguments have been made over and over and there's nothing new at all to be said.

It's one thing to "talk about lore in the lore forum" but it's another for everyone to just keep repeating themselves whenever a trigger phrase is said in an unrelated thread or to make a new one to say the same thing again and again. Endwalker and the game as a whole have moved on passed all of Ancients into a mostly new and unrelated story from 6.1 onward. There will probably be new information released in the next Encyclopedia Eorzea in December, but if it's anything like the Tales from the Dawn, it's not going to make you happy anyway.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Venat's story ended over a year and a half ago in 6.0 and there's not really been anything new to talk about that since then in regards to her or the Ancient storyline. The same arguments have been made over and over and there's nothing new at all to be said.

It's one thing to "talk about lore in the lore forum" but it's another for everyone to just keep repeating themselves whenever a trigger phrase is said in an unrelated thread or to make a new one to say the same thing again and again. Endwalker and the game as a whole have moved on passed all of Ancients into a mostly new and unrelated story from 6.1 onward. There will probably be new information released in the next Encyclopedia Eorzea in December, but if it's anything like the Tales from the Dawn, it's not going to make you happy anyway.

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Well we only just finished Pandamuim so we've only just finished with ancients and the bits of content we've had with them don't seem to have gelled all that well with the narrative the MSQ tried to poorly tell.
I don't think it helps that after gutting the games deep lore the game seems to have no interest in building something new, the post 6.0 MSQ seems to have very little to other than forcing a load of badly done FF4 references with let to no setup

The actual subject mater? That was disproven with the quote on the the second page from Venat. You guys claiming harassment for your opinions? I asked you to show me some a while ago and you just brushed it aside You not addressing those point, the video itself labels them as excuses doesn't make you right. It just means you ignored it, probably because you can't actually refute it. So instead of just stating your opinion as "I don't like those answers and I feel it could have been written better." which is an opinion and you'd find nobody really arguing with you about that, it's your opinion to have. Sadly you don't do that, a lot of people on this forum don't do that and the circle jerk between you lot continues. People post here to correct the misinformation. This is the lore forum after all.

As for you being gone for 2 years. You miscounted. You have posts from 2022 chief. You've not been gone all that long and came back it seems like for this thread. So you straight up paid 15 dollars to start up the circle jerk again. Have you even logged into the game?. But I'm the creepy one? You'd think someone that claims to not be here so much wouldn't be so invested in all this. Yet here you are.

This the third time I'm asking, where at? Here? Reddit? Twitter? I find it hard to believe that people correcting you on how the story went would go so far to do that stuff to you, or other people. Seems pretty wild to me.

You should stop assuming and just read the words on the screen, without your filter on what you think I'm getting out. You're very bad at reading people's intentions. I'd say it's your bias that makes you believe that video is in anyway neutral. Also you assume I'm some Venat fanboy. You're doing a lot of assuming there. I'd stop were I you That's twice in one post you've been wrong and if this continues I'm sure the counter is gonna rise up pretty high and pretty quick. Might be amusing though, lets see how high you go.

@above. The raid tier doesn't go into this topic but one time to explain what one character was doing when people were giving their lives to summon zodiark or just dying during all the chaos. So while it deals with some characters from that era it has nothing to do with the sundering. So no need to bring that up as a way to talk about the sundering. This forum already did a post on what happened in the raid tier.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

snip

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Sigh. Tells me to stop assuming yet assumes i haven’t even logged into the game. Newsflash since you’re apparently so smart and know everything to “prove me wrong.” You literally have to log into the game for a fairly extended amount of time before you can even post on the forums. Subbing isn’t enough. I subbed because i was gifted one and am taking it as an opportunity to see how things have changed in a year and a half. But sure, i did it simply to post in the circlejerk.

As for proof, i haven’t posted it because doing so would get me banned. It’s explicit content. You claim i’m making a ton of assumptions on you being a “venat simp” and to not do that yet you’ve made numerous accusations and assumptions about me i’ve disproven time and time again and it just makes you look like a laughing stock i’m sorry.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Venat's story ended over a year and a half ago in 6.0 and there's not really been anything new to talk about that since then in regards to her or the Ancient storyline. The same arguments have been made over and over and there's nothing new at all to be said.

It's one thing to "talk about lore in the lore forum" but it's another for everyone to just keep repeating themselves whenever a trigger phrase is said in an unrelated thread or to make a new one to say the same thing again and again. Endwalker and the game as a whole have moved on passed all of Ancients into a mostly new and unrelated story from 6.1 onward. There will probably be new information released in the next Encyclopedia Eorzea in December, but if it's anything like the Tales from the Dawn, it's not going to make you happy anyway.

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This has been explained to you i dont know how many times at this point but just to reiterate.

1.) IT doesnt matter realistically how long ago Venat's story ended. We are still in Endwalker, the expansion the story is about. Codex entires regarding her have come out in post patches. Theres ancient content with Pandaemonium etc.
2.)This was the end to a 10 year long arc. People were invested. Naturally there is going to be a lot of discourse over a 10 year long arc that people were invested in for 10 years.
3.) No one forces any of you to come in here. For the last time, if you are tired of the topic, *Dont Enter The Thread*. You're complaining about entering unrelated threads when this thread is related and you and others still find a way to whine and complain.Literally at this point it doesnt matter if the thread is on topic or not, you all still find a way to come in here and complain. Dont enter the thread if you dont like what it very clearly entails. And if you do enter the thread you have 0 room or right to complain about what people talk about in relation to it

It truly is not that complicated people. Stay and enter the threads for topics you want, leave and step away from ones you dont. Otherwise dont complain/. It just makes you look immature.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Well we only just finished Pandamuim so we've only just finished with ancients and the bits of content we've had with them don't seem to have gelled all that well with the narrative the MSQ tried to poorly tell.

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I don't count Pandaemonium because it doesn't link into the main Ancient storyline in the MSQ and has nothing at all to do with the characters that everyone argues about. It's not the main Ancient storyline, it's a tangent that doesn't even really tell us much we didn't know lore-wise beyond character growth and set dressing isolated to just the raid. Because we have access to a zone with living Ancients in it, it's an excuse to go back and give us further insight into Lahabrea, who otherwise has been dead for 8 years. And I guess to have Elidibus with his mask off. Of all the 8-man raids, it probably has the least relevancy in the actual main plot after Alexander.

It doesn't add any relevant information to people for or against Venat or her role in the story except that it triple-downs on Ancients being flawed, just like Sundered people. And just like the Greek gods many of them are named after, many of them are extremely prideful and sure of their own authority to make drastic changes to the world and its people as well as that might makes right, which is something the writers have already told us about both Emet-Selch and Venat.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Sigh. Tells me to stop assuming yet assumes i haven’t even logged into the game. Newsflash since you’re apparently so smart and know everything to “prove me wrong.” You literally have to log into the game for a fairly extended amount of time before you can even post on the forums. Subbing isn’t enough. I subbed because i was gifted one and am taking it as an opportunity to see how things have changed in a year and a half. But sure, i did it simply to post in the circlejerk.

As for proof, i haven’t posted it because doing so would get me banned. It’s explicit content. You claim i’m making a ton of assumptions on you being a “venat simp” and to not do that yet you’ve made numerous accusations and assumptions about me i’ve disproven time and time again and it just makes you look like a laughing stock i’m sorry.

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You might wanna read it again. I asked you the question. It would be an assuming if I just left it as you paying money to post here.

While that wasn't an assumption you made I'm just gonna go ahead and make the tally a general you're wrong thing. Tally is at 5 now. I asked for any proof of harassment and you took it to mean the sexual stuff. I'm sure you have more tame examples. A really rude and mean spirited comment perhaps?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

As for you being gone for 2 years. You miscounted. You have posts from 2022 chief. You've not been gone all that long and came back it seems like for this thread. So you straight up paid 15 dollars to start up the circle jerk again.

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Also im pretty sure i didnt say 2 years, i said almost 2 years, which if im not mistaken it will be 2 years by janurary of 2024. This is you assuming i paid $15 to participate in the "circlejerk" by the way, (which id just like to point out is yes, more gross downplaying and denouncing from this poster but who is surprised at this point.)

As for mean comments, i dont care about the mean comments. They arent relevant or all that impactful. My point in bringing this up is the more severe cases,which yes, i cannot post here. People being so angry at someone elses opinion over a video game they resorted to doxxing and threats of sexual harassment/assault. I only bring this up to lend credence to people when they say they needed a safe space to speak out. This is why.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Also im pretty sure i didnt say 2 years, i said almost 2 years, which if im not mistaken it will be 2 years by janurary of 2024. This is you assuming i paid $15 to participate in the "circlejerk" by the way, (which id just like to point out is yes, more gross downplaying and denouncing from this poster but who is surprised at this point.)

As for mean comments, i dont care about the mean comments. They arent relevant or all that impactful. My point in bringing this up is the more severe cases,which yes, i cannot post here. People being so angry at someone elses opinion over a video game they resorted to doxxing and threats of sexual harassment/assault. I only bring this up to lend credence to people when they say they needed a safe space to speak out. This is why.

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Tally is 6. Your last post was around this time, last year. Who cares if they impacted you or not. People don't just hope to sexual violence and doxxing or a disagreement. It would do much to give you some credence as you aren't to be taken at face value. You can't even admit that you were here posting last year. I'm suppose to believe you when you say there was sexual harassment and more vile things thrown your way?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Tally is 6. Your last post was around this time, last year. Who cares if they impacted you or not. People don't just hope to sexual violence and doxxing or a disagreement. It would do much to give you some credence as you aren't to be taken at face value. You can't even admit that you were here posting last year. I'm suppose to believe you when you say there was sexual harassment and more vile things thrown your way?

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You’re moving the goalpost. How long it’s been since i as subbed doesn’t matter but sure it was 1 year sorry i forgot lmao. Regardless it doesn’t matter. You can tally all you want can we tally how many breakdowns and flailing fits you’ve had because people don’t agree with you? You come in here complaining about people talking about Venat, about misinformation, yet everytime i ask you to give an example of the supposed wrong information or a time we’ve been proven wrong you move the goalpost. So again i’ll ask. Can you give a specific example from the video that is incorrect and provide evidence as to why it’s incorrect? If not then you’ve shown everyone how much of a…what’s the term you like to use, “Bad Faith” poster you truly are.

Side note, you can try to victim blame or dissuade all you want, i’m not saying it for you to believe it,I’m saying it for other people who may have come across the same issue and needs a safe space to discuss the story without threat of examples i gave.

I'm not moving the goalpost. You are just wrong. You're the one that said almost two. I said that's wrong. "I forgot" was all you had to say but you took two post denying it. Why? It's a pretty small thing chief. Also it matters quite a bit when you bring it up to say "I've haven't been here in forever! You were here pretty recently chief, talking about this same thing. You're also using your gifted sub to jump right back into the circlejerk."

I've told you where to find it in this thread, three times in fact. The second page, the only other thing I've said about the video is that it's tone is not neutral the person clearly has a bias. Did you want me to copy and paste it here from the second page? Having problems with your mouse? You're an adult you can do that much for yourself.

Your tally is at 8 now. I'm about to go enjoy the rest of my Sunday so I might post again today or it might not be till tomorrow, if I remember. Should I go ahead and bump your tally up to 10 or 12. Just to get on top of your reply to this post? I'd not recommend trying to make a tally, you've already shown that you don't know that 2022 to 2023 is only one and you tend to forget so we can't really trust any tally you count.

To your side note. The mods here supply the safe space, not you. I really don't think anyone has been harassed like what you're describing here. Hell you can't even give me an example of what I specified here. But you think people here are in danger from far worse. Taking pretty big leaps there chief.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The actual subject mater? That was disproven with the quote on the the second page from Venat.

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No, it wasn't. Those quotes were taken and reframed with information not given or referred to within them. They also ignore in game things that refute them. They were also given not in response to the video, which the poster admitted to not having watched a few posts later, but to someone else's post.

They were also rebutted on that same page, Chief. And by a couple of people at that. Try again, Oats.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No, it wasn't. Those quotes were taken and reframed with information not given or referred to within them. They also ignore in game things that refute them. They were also given not in response to the video, which the poster admitted to not having watched a few posts later, but to someone else's post.

They were also rebutted on that same page, Chief. And by a couple of people at that. Try again, Oats.

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Them making some stuff up on the spot is not in fact refuting what was said in the quote. That falls under something like an opinion. "I don't like that, they should of done X." What I'm asking you for is in game proof refuting what Veant said and her reasons for not telling the convocation. Or you need to show that she was lying or never did the things she said. Which you cannot do.

Maybe read what was said and what was being asked of you. Do we need to start a tally for you too? Also who is oats?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Them making some stuff up on the spot is not in fact refuting what was said in the quote. That falls under something like an opinion. "I don't like that, they should of done X." What I'm asking you for is in game proof refuting what Veant said and her reasons for not telling the convocation. Or you need to show that she was lying or never did the things she said. Which you cannot do.

Maybe read what was said and what was being asked of you. Do we need to start a tally for you too? Also who is oats?

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So much for probably not posting lmao. Like i said, addiction. I’ll pray for you.:)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So much for probably not posting lmao. Like i said, addiction. I’ll pray for you.:)

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You really have an issue with only reading parts of what people say. The tally is nine. I'll pick up with you tomorrow. I was talking to the other guy, a conversation between two people and you aren't one of the two you see. Hope you understand :)

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't count Pandaemonium because it doesn't link into the main Ancient storyline in the MSQ and has nothing at all to do with the characters that everyone argues about. It's not the main Ancient storyline, it's a tangent that doesn't even really tell us much we didn't know lore-wise beyond character growth and set dressing isolated to just the raid. Because we have access to a zone with living Ancients in it, it's an excuse to go back and give us further insight into Lahabrea, who otherwise has been dead for 8 years. And I guess to have Elidibus with his mask off. Of all the 8-man raids, it probably has the least relevancy in the actual main plot after Alexander.

It doesn't add any relevant information to people for or against Venat or her role in the story except that it triple-downs on Ancients being flawed, just like Sundered people. And just like the Greek gods many of them are named after, many of them are extremely prideful and sure of their own authority to make drastic changes to the world and its people as well as that might makes right, which is something the writers have already told us about both Emet-Selch and Venat.

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That's still part of the ancients story so seems odd to discount it. Also wasn't part of the problem with the ancients that they were 'too perfect' but they seem to be depicting them as very humanly flawed as where did you get might makes right in ancient society?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The thing about it is this subject isn't really about discussion or debate; the people who bring this subject up time and again are just looking for validation of their opinions. As a public discussion space people are free to bring up whatever topics they want, but should have the wisdom to recognize when irreconcilable differences of opinion exist and the maturity to not go around kicking hornet's nests.

Some people like and enjoy the game in spite of criticism; that doesn't make them lesser, but said critics often espouse this idea when their criticism is rebuffed or not validated. People are passionate about the game, on both sides of the fence; I don't think that's a bad thing, but there has to be a point where you recognize you aren't convincing anyone of anything (preaching to the choir doesn't count) and discussion is unproductive. 1.5 years in should be well past that point.

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I mean, yea some people bring it up just for validation, but other people who talk about it in the thread may just be interested in discussing it or god forbid, they are new players who just finished the 6.0 MSQ. A topic being 1,5 years old doesn't matter as it is the lore forum..the point to talk about lore. If you tired of the discussion or people bringing it up, just don't join the thread, If people bring it up in an unrelated topic, bring it up and tell them this is not what the conversation is about.

I just don't get why you decide to ''time gate'' thing about Venat. Should we spam people who talking in the Miqo'te naming convention to stop talking about the subject cause most information about the subject date from 1.0 and 2.0?

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I mean, yea some people bring it up just for validation, but other people who talk about it in the thread may just be interested in discussing it or god forbid, they are new players who just finished the 6.0 MSQ.

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Theoretically yes. And we do have one new person who has come in to discuss, which is a rare sight.

For the most part it is the same group of people having the same argument they've been having across multiple threads for a year and a half, with nothing new to add on either side.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

That's still part of the ancients story so seems odd to discount it. Also wasn't part of the problem with the ancients that they were 'too perfect' but they seem to be depicting them as very humanly flawed as where did you get might makes right in ancient society?

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It has naught to do with the whole Ancient story in the MSQ and the morality around the Sundering that is being discussed ad nauseam. It's an Ancient story, not the Ancient story. It's like bringing up the dietary habits of the Redbelly bandits when discussing whether or not is was OK for the Hyur and the Elezen to join the Elementals and leave Gelmorra. There was never a problem with them being "too perfect", not sure where that comes from.

And as for my comment on "might makes right", it was mentioned in an interview that Hermes (I thought it was Venat, but she does the same exact thing) and Emet-Selch make objective judgements against an entire people and have the power to make it happen whether the people want it or not. All 3 wield comparatively unstoppable power to have their will made manifest against an entire people whether that be out-of-context magic the Ancients have no defense against - Hermes, being a near-literal god with the power to split souls, the very world, and another near-literal god into 14 pieces - Venat/Hydaelyn, or being an omnipotent ghost who kills millions upon millions of people and shatters whole worlds to bring back the people who were sacrificed - Emet-Selch.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I just don't get why you decide to ''time gate'' thing about Venat. Should we spam people who talking in the Miqo'te naming convention to stop talking about the subject cause most information about the subject date from 1.0 and 2.0?

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It's one thing to discuss new, fresh topics on decade-old lore like again, the dietary habits of the Redbelly bandits. But it's another to constantly bring up a dead horse topic that's been gone over repeatedly again and again with no end in sight and no new information at all provided in a year and a half and call it "relevant" just because the climax happened in the same expansion we're currently in despite the story having long moved on. None of the arguments change, there's no new critical insight, and no one is convinced of anything at all and just digs harder.

It may become relevant again in December when we have a new lore book, but so far every single time a new tidbit is added it always shines a light on Venat and doesn't make anyone from the "pro-Zodiark camp" happy anyway.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I just don't get why you decide to ''time gate'' thing about Venat. Should we spam people who talking in the Miqo'te naming convention to stop talking about the subject cause most information about the subject date from 1.0 and 2.0?

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I'm not trying to or even suggesting anything be time gated. New faces with new ideas are always welcome, as are questions about older lore bits.

That's not what happened here, though. What happened here is someone posted a negatively critical YouTube video, positive critics argued against it, and negative critics came out of the woodwork to argue against them and have their negative opinions of the Endwalker story validated, leading to an echo chamber and personal attacks. The issue is interminably contentious, and when the same familiar faces show out and make the same familiar moves...

There's a reason I call it dancing.