Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

Anecdotal evidence and all that, but I'm wondering where all these people in WoW harassing others over leveling dungeon DPS are, as that was literally *never* my experience (and I've leveled a LOT of characters).

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

What? if anything casual content is definitely the place where meters would never be put. There's no reason to ever have damage meters in sastasha ever. There's no reason to have them on Alliance raids or Story Dungeons. None of those have enrages so your DPS does not matter.
Damage meters would not only contribute nothing, but add to the toxicity as you'd be tacitly allowing someone to have a meltdown if the other person in their sastasha run didn't have full uptaime, and made the boss take 10 seconds more.

I don't think they're even needed in Extremes or Savages, I've never needed them on anything. But for sure, talking about putting them in casual content is so far beyond the scope of what people are talking about that it will definitely never happen.

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"Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.
Everyone will know who to actually give a well deserved commendation to. Hahahahaha!"
- Quoted from the OP.

Can't give commends in PF, therefore the OP is talking about casual duties. So yes, people are talking about it.

Fight metrics aren't just useful for endgame. It's nice to know who's carrying their weight in regular content. Especially on the off chance when things go wrong that way people don't sit around pointing fingers.

No one likes leeches and it would help a lot of healers out since healers are the defacto blame takers in many situations. I understand if you don't want that though. This wouldn't even be a necessity of the majority of the playerbase would just do the bare minimum required of them.

It is the worst moment to add a DMG meter due to the current system of 2min buff windows and important high potency skills.

The amount of people who just throw away a pull because their big potion buffed gcd just did 35k DMG instead of a +100k crit dh, would skyrocket.
Because they would see how much of a different bad RNG will have on the overall dps.

God, I really dislike high potency GCDs and the current 2min buff system.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

If you want to bait you should make your own thread... that's how that works. :D

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Not bait, as I mentioned some implied serious raiders use PC.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Nor are they expected to have to use damage meters. Anybody seriously advocating for there usage (in an environment where addons are ahem...downloadable) they would most likely play the PC version if they want to take raiding seriously somehow. Its also not as if this game needs a high end pc to run either.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Um...yeah right....sure...

https://media.tenor.com/b_FM05b17HAA...-hilarious.gif

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When was the last time you played WoW? No need to paint the WoW community as a boogieman, for the most part many do not even care. Sure you run into the bad actor every so often but those are few and far between. The general player base is fairly goes with the flow when it comes to leveling content. If you are trying for the most part the WoW community is extremely understanding in leveling content.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes. They will. Thank you for making my point.

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Following your logic does that mean we should remove everything that can be misused and or foster a "toxic" community? RIP Party Finder? RIP Housing? RIP PvP? RIP PvP Scoreboards? Why stop at that let go the the extreme RIP FFXIV cause shit people can be toxic.

Point is just because something can and will be misused does not mean it is inherently bad and should be barred from everything because some do not know how to play nice with others. It happens already, sure if we had an official tool the numbers would go up slightly but overall people who are going to be assholes are most likely already assholes.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

People say damage meters will make people get toxic, but honestly, I've seen so much toxicity over the lack of damage meters and in-game information on what happened in a fight.

Because you can't mention ACT, especially in casual scenarios it's very easy for people to throw the blame around. Damage meters + an in-game review showing damage taken and taken from what sources, along with healing would be helpful for avoiding that childishness.

I've dealt with more immature hostilities from casuals regarding party performance issues than I have with elitists.

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Yes, thank you for saying this. Just because we lack the ability to talk about numbers ingame does not mean the blame game about performance isnt going to happen.

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When was the last time you played WoW?

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2010-2019. I quit during Bloody Fricking Atrocious.

Long enough for you?

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No need to paint the WoW community as a boogieman, for the most part many do not even care.

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Yes they do. A lot. Ive lost count of the number of newbies chased away over toxicity.

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Sure you run into the bad actor every so often but those are few and far between.

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Far more prevalent than you believe.

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The general player base is fairly goes with the flow when it comes to leveling content. If you are trying for the most part the WoW community is extremely understanding in leveling content.

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https://media.tenor.com/pwhTYF9q7IIA...help-oh-no.gif

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Point is just because something can and will be misused does not mean it is inherently bad

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Reread that sentence and you tell me whats wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yes, thank you for saying this. Just because we lack the ability to talk about numbers ingame does not mean the blame game about performance isnt going to happen.

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And then once you add damage meters whoops suddenly you make that debate even worse!

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

What? if anything casual content is definitely the place where meters would never be put. There's no reason to ever have damage meters in sastasha ever. There's no reason to have them on Alliance raids or Story Dungeons. None of those have enrages so your DPS does not matter.

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People with this mindset should seriously unsub. It is selfish and goes against basic respect

I wonder if somewhere out there theres an IceMage and unironically is just a more grounded but positive version of FireMage.

But then they do the Fusion dance with the potara earrings and they fuse into becoming Aveyond-dreams.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

And then once you add damage meters whoops suddenly you make that debate even worse!

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I disagree, the numbers being forbidden opens the door for pure feelycraft. Actual numbers would help put a check on people making up fabrications to shift blame away from themselves.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I disagree, the numbers being forbidden opens the door for pure feelycraft. Actual numbers would help put a check on people making up fabrications to shift blame away from themselves.

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I disagree, you cant genuinely trust people far enough to NOT abuse it to be toxicity anyway. Its like giving a loaded gun to a opo-opo.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I disagree, you cant genuinely trust people far enough to NOT abuse it to be toxicity anyway. Its like giving a loaded gun to a opo-opo.

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The opo-opo in question is already shooting. It would give everyone else a way to defend themselves.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

The opo-opo in question is already shooting. It would give everyone else a way to defend themselves.

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Yeah well the opo-opo has the machinist job stone so he throws in wild fire at the raiding community, slowly adding up toxic arguments with his overheated damage meter tools till the community cant take anymore and wild fire finally set off

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Yeah well the opo-opo has the machinist job stone so he throws in wild fire at the raiding community, slowly adding up toxic arguments with his overheated damage meter tools till the community cant take anymore and wild fire finally set off

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All those MCH references you keep mentioning makes me wonder if you're talking about that 99th MCH who was demanded to swap to BRD/DNC because the PF creator whined in chat about not being able to get their p5s clear in a friggin' 15th week. (Thanks, twitter algorithm! lol)

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

All those MCH references you keep mentioning makes me wonder if you're talking about that 99th MCH who was demanded to swap to BRD/DNC because the PF creator whined in chat about not being able to get their p5s clear in a friggin' 15th week. (Thanks, twitter algorithm! lol)

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Actually that was the example I was refering to earlier. But it was a coincidence since I originally was gonna say "monkey with a gun" but had to make it FFXIV related somehow

So some t-cup didn't allow a MCH, so what? It's their PF

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So some t-cup didn't allow a MCH, so what? It's their PF

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I am willing to assume that mch was glad the pf host revealed themselves as dummy before going into the instance. This is the beauty of allowing people to fully set their own rules, not only do reasonable people get the ability to gate out bad actors, bad actors will also instantly show the world who they are if they host their own PFs.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Let's be honest, shaming will happen. If it's not dps then it will be ilvl. If it's not ilvl then it's clears. If it's not clears then it will be glamours. Humans attempting to shame other humans is going to happen and no amount of safeguards will prevent it. That's why the act itself should be looked down on.

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You are not proving a valid point at all and you don't understand a thing of what I said.

DPS meters is NOT in the game for the reason of that SE would permit that way for players to be able to lockout other players if they can't reach X dps, even if what they do is more than enough.

By adding the DPS meter = SE would permit people shaming over their DPS and it would be too much of a problem with harrashment and the likes that they simply would not bother to add it at all... what they should do though... they should remove the logging to peoples PC's by removing the entire combat log.

You don't need it for anything and if anything it is more a development tool rather than ACT and the likes being able to sniff the data.

I wonder what you guys did in the old days with difficult content when there was no DPS's meters and whatever else? I know what I did... I kept going at the content with some friends untill we beat it dead... but again hardcore gamers is a thing of the past, now they need tools for everything... and uh.. why should we play the game as intended?

You can't shame on ilevel, it is labeled directly on the duty what is the minimum requirement, and it is doable at the minimum requirement, if you are good at your job of choice, most are scared for mechanics... so they rather want to skip them rather than to play them... that also raises quite a few good questions.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Reread that sentence and you tell me whats wrong with it.

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You have a diadain for a tool because people misuse it and abuse it. As mentioned should we bar other things people misuse and abuse?

Here is the wonderful issue, everyone has different experiences you seem to have a overly negative one and I seem to have an overly positive or neutral experience with the WoW community.

So why is one experience held in higher regard than the other? Both are largely anecdotal, both are still with merit cause they are ones personal experience but don't you see how we are more or less using emotion to bar the use of something because assholes exist?

In the end people hating on a tool because some people will use it wrong just baffles me. Reminds me of people that want to get rid of accessibility third party tools because people misuse and abuse third party tools.

Punish the abuse when it happens, do.not try and take the easy way out.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

You are not proving a valid point at all and you don't understand a thing of what I said.

DPS meters is NOT in the game for the reason of that SE would permit that way for players to be able to lockout other players if they can't reach X dps, even if what they do is more than enough.

By adding the DPS meter = SE would permit people shaming over their DPS and it would be too much of a problem with harrashment and the likes that they simply would not bother to add it at all... what they should do though... they should remove the logging to peoples PC's by removing the entire combat log.

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Way to kill raiding and therefore the game. Garbage idea

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

You are not proving a valid point at all and you don't understand a thing of what I said.

DPS meters is NOT in the game for the reason of that SE would permit that way for players to be able to lockout other players if they can't reach X dps, even if what they do is more than enough.

You can't shame on ilevel, it is labeled directly on the duty what is the minimum requirement, and it is doable at the minimum requirement, if you are good at your job of choice, most are scared for mechanics... so they rather want to skip them rather than to play them... that also raises quite a few good questions.

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They can and do. Many party finders have requirements above the minimum. Without parses and “illegal tools” you’d have no way to prove you’re better than your shoulder pads.

Besides as others have pointed out, these tools are ALREADY in game. Anyone gatekeeping in this manner already has them.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

I wonder what you guys did in the old days with difficult content when there was no DPS's meters and whatever else?

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We used ACT. ACT came out in around '00-'01, in Everquest. It was designed to show proof to the devs that the warrior class had too low of a dps compared to the other two tanks. All we had was a taunt button, autoattack, a kick and we could throw a stone. While the other two tanks had the same plus spells, so we could not hold aggro as well as them and we were being bared ftom raids because we couldn't preform as well as the other two classes. (Class were being closed out of raids before ACT was even a thing?? Surely not, only that sort of toxic behavior is caused by the evilness of ACT..)Devs said nah you guys are good so we had to get proof. Then once ACT came out people seen it could be a good way to track personal and groups dps. So it's been around for almost as long as mmos.

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Originally Posted by Delis

We used ACT. ACT came out in around '00-'01, in Everquest. It was designed to show proof to the devs that the warrior class had too low of a dps compared to the other two tanks. All we had was a taunt button, autoattack, a kick and we could throw a stone. While the other two tanks had the same plus spells, so we could not hold aggro as well as them and we were being bared ftom raids because we couldn't preform as well as the other two classes. (Class were being closed out of raids before ACT was even a thing?? Surely not, only that sort of toxic behavior is caused by the evilness of ACT..)Devs said nah you guys are good so we had to get proof. Then once ACT came out people seen it could be a good way to track personal and groups dps. So it's been around for almost as long as mmos.

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Tell me how world first get it done without?

Man, some of these anti-in game meters posts are just... so exhausting to read. Combating anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence does nothing because "feelings and only my experience matters", and the leaps of logic can't be argued with because no logic actually exists because, again, feelings.

Players owning multiple houses, exploited not intended.
FC's owning multiple FC houses, exploited not intended.
Single member FC's, exploited not intended.
And the players who have exploited these systems always claim that if it wasn't intended they wouldn't have included a method to obtain this.

And you honestly think players wouldn't exploit an in game parser? :rolleyes:

I can just imagine the forums blowing up if they were to ever include an in game parser and someone gets banned because of it, they would claim that if it wasn't intended to be used like that it wouldn't have been put in the game.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Knowing who is dead weight and treating them as such isn't toxic, what's toxic is being the dead weight

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"Being toxic towards someone in extremely casual dungeon or alliance raid runs is totally not toxic at all" eyeroll

Players like you are deserving of perma bans.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

I dunno, I have a hot take for you.

I've blind progged numerous MINE Ex and Savage raids. I dont consider myself particularly good. I might go as far as to say that I suck half of the time and am passably decent the other half. In other words, if I can do it, anyone can. People need to stop being babies and just get on with it.

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As long as you clear the mechanics and do passable dps to clear the dps check I don't care if someone isn't breaking the top tier numbers... People who get caught up in that stuff are usually crap at the game...which was proven in another thread where the person you quoted was shown to mess up mechanics constantly lol. He can have all the "leet dps" he wants, but it means nothing if he keeps wiping the party by failing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

"Being toxic towards someone in extremely casual dungeon or alliance raid runs is totally not toxic at all" eyeroll

Players like you are deserving of perma bans.

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Removing someone not pulling their weight is dealing with toxicity, not the other way around. This is a fact, your feelings on the matter are irrelevant

Seriously fellas, stop feeding FireMage direct responses

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Seriously fellas, stop feeding FireMage direct responses

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https://previews.123rf.com/images/pa...xury-hotel.jpg

Thank god using damage meters and admitting to it is a bannable offense. It does mean that I don't know for certain if someone deserves to be on my block list when I have just met them on a pug, but I'll accept that small flaw in the otherwise beautiful world where jackasses can't inflict their opinion on me about or relative superiority in hitting 1-0 and Ctrl in a 2 or 3 second gap rhythm game

Let's the hardcore folks use it to improve their gameplay in private statics without risking complete jerks from spewing their toxicity allover the place

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Thank god using damage meters and admitting to it is a bannable offense. It does mean that I don't know for certain if someone deserves to be on my block list when I have just met them on a pug, but I'll accept that small flaw in the otherwise beautiful world where jackasses can't inflict their opinion on me about or relative superiority in hitting 1-0 and Ctrl in a 2 or 3 second gap rhythm game

Let's the hardcore folks use it to improve their gameplay in private statics without risking complete jerks from spewing their toxicity allover the place

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You are an across the board graylet. The toxic one is you

This just in: Harassment will suddenly be allowed if damage meters were added to the game.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

This just in: Harassment will suddenly be allowed if damage meters were added to the game.

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This just in: Dealing with bads isn't harassment

I find it ironic when people say allowing ACT would "create" toxicity. Watch me side-eye the bitchy passive-aggressive blacklists on 2ch, which exist even without the assistance of a damage meter.

FFXIV's community is absolutely okay with toxicity so long as it comes in the form of evasive mean-girl passive aggression. The addition of evidence to back up claims ruins the potemkin village "positivity" the community likes to put up when it comes to duty finder etiquette.

Turns out that most people who aren't nuts can read damage number outputs in Aurum Vale, roll their eyes once, and finish the thing without comment. It's not that uncommon. Turns out having number readouts isn't what makes someone unpleasant.

Parsing can be misused but statically you are more like ro have neutral or positive encounter. Now if you have underline issues that cannot be known to the general public, poor internet, faulty rig, new player, and other limitations then yes you are going to have a higher chance to run into someone that calls you, and it very well may be majority of your individual time. Still using extreme cases is disingenuous when it comes to saying parsing bad.

I am pretty no one will.a straight face can say most of their encounters in WoW had someone bash another for DPS, and in the cases that they it was brought up objectively they most likely under performing. What I am saying for general player base you will not run into many cases of parsing abuse in leveling content if you are trying and actively using or trying to use a standard rotation for your role.

Also let us be fair FFXIV is high up on the "toxic community" list we are just more passive aggressive about it so this makes it magically tolerable. I get it personal accountability blows ass, no one wants to face the reality they play like shit and it is easier to just use the metric of I cleared the fight so I must be doing well enough. If that is how you feel sure.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Parsing can be misused but statically you are more like ro have neutral or positive encounter. Now if you have underline issues that cannot be known to the general public, poor internet, faulty rig, new player, and other limitations then yes you are going to have a higher chance to run into someone that calls you, and it very well may be majority of your individual time. Still using extreme cases is disingenuous when it comes to saying parsing bad.

I am pretty no one will.a straight face can say most of their encounters in WoW had someone bash another for DPS, and in the cases that they it was brought up objectively they most likely under performing. What I am saying for general player base you will not run into many cases of parsing abuse in leveling content if you are trying and actively using or trying to use a standard rotation for your role.

Also let us be fair FFXIV is high up on the "toxic community" list we are just more passive aggressive about it so this makes it magically tolerable. I get it personal accountability blows ass, no one wants to face the reality they play like shit and it is easier to just use the metric of I cleared the fight so I must be doing well enough. If that is how you feel sure.

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The WoW thing just boggles my mind lol. People in dungeon finder are, generally, more concerned with finishing and getting out than actually commenting on peoples' performance.

I think kicking and deporting people from the party if they are objectively not playing up to the requirement to pass the duty, or if their performance doesn't meet the ascribed reason for the party forming in the first place (e.g., parsing or farm parties) - Then this is OK, I don't think it is inherently toxic to do so.

I do, however, think it is toxic to shame people for such, especially when it provides no inherent advantage to anyone whatsoever in the game, beyond feeding one already clearly fragile ego, then, this is a problem. It is just unfortunate that these individuals often lack the requisite social skills to actually make this distinction. You can kick people from the group and just say you don't believe they adequately fit the requirement for the party without being rude or disrespectful. - I find it incredibly ironic that these people are so keen to try and ascribe malice to something that can just as easily be described by either inexperience or just not having the requisite practice with the job. It's also further ironic that these people so willing to ascribe toxicity are often those that exhibit higher levels of toxicity, with the only distinction being their complete and utter lack of self-awareness.

That being said, I absolutely give my sympathies out to people who would genuinely benefit from using such things, most especially when they use it in the direction of community-created content. Seeing as the underlying concept of parsing does actually allow for community-created content. These people genuinely have my deepest sympathies when a facet of their gameplay is given a bad stigma courtesy of individuals that simply misuse these tools. I would take this chance too, to say I wholeheartedly think that parsing is not the issue, just the community - I would even argue in this respect a subset of the community is just as toxic as any other.

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You have a diadain for a tool because people misuse it and abuse it

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Yes. I do. Your response is why. it can be and has been and will be abused.

So you are again proving my point.

I think kicking and deporting people from the party if they are objectively not playing up to the requirement to pass the duty, or if their performance doesn't meet the ascribed reason for the party forming in the first place (e.g., parsing or farm parties) - Then this is OK, I don't think it is inherently toxic to do so.

"You did xxxx dps I want uyyyy dps"

"You did xxx dps, but my values are ( insert ridiculous figure ) so you didnt do enough"

And,....the oldie but a gooidie

" You won the roll but I dont think you did enough dps so Im giving iut to this person ( insert name of buddy or friend or girlfriend"

DPS meters have what I call a cascade effect, you do xx dps they say they want y dps..you do that and they want more..and more and more until it becomes a sick joke. People become fixated on "performance metrics" and "throughput" and key performance" and "acceptable dps vs arbitrary figure they pull out of their rear"

Thats not a game

Thats a job.

No.