If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

You have to have engaging content if your job design is simple, or you have to have engaging job design if your content is simple. If both are simple you have nothing to keep players around long term.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Yoshi P said in a video that FFXIV wouldn't exist were it not for WoW. The game was a major inspirational source for this game. My question really is: Is the dev team willing to learn from the mistakes Blizzard made?

Blizzard literally went on a raging simplification spree. Notably pruning and removing tons of abilities from each class and specializations in the name of "accessibility". Shortly after the game went downhill big time. Skill expression is today completely gone in WoW. Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

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I agree, that dumping down the gameplay will not be good for the game in the long term.

But seriously, Blizzards problems are not made by dumping down the gameplay. They have way too many layers of different systems. Too much grind, too much FOMO mechanics, they reset the game with every content patch completely etc.



Cheers

This is my guess.. but maybe the job simplification is to set it up for latter content that will need to introduce new skills. I feel that way with Reaper and Summoner at the moment. I would say Sage; but most healers except for Astro has been simplified already. Though I do understand the frustration that level 90 should be encouraging players to enhance their skills. Its literally 10 levels away from the overall level cap of any major final fantasy game. I do wonder if they'll make a level squish so level 100 will still be iconic. I really can't say for sure.

I main WHM, so I am use to a more direct/simple play style. But I like that its direct; but I wouldn't mind the job having more to it while still being direct. Its nice to take the job to the next level and get super good at it.

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Originally Posted by Gember

This is my guess.. but maybe the job simplification is to set it up for latter content that will need to introduce new skills.

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I would like to think that, but some of these classes got wrecked before they even decided 6.0 was the last expansion for the zodiark / hydalyn plot.

They even say the MCH class is complete, there is not anything further to expand up in its game play. And it's game play is not great.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

having to press 500 different buttons during combat does not make the game fun

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It depends.

If you have 10 buttons and they do different things then it can be fun. But if you have 10 buttons and they do almost the same thing then the game will become boring very quickly. Unfortunately, for FF14 the latter applies. And this is the reason why many jobs feel so bloated. WoW Classic and Tbc did a way better job here, IMHO. You had many buttons but only few feeled similar to each other.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

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For me, the exact reason I quit playing WoW is the simplification and homogenization of classes. I play on private servers now in old expansions where my class actually has an identity and things they bring to the table that other classes do not. I also play other older MMORPGs like City of Heroes and Everquest p1999 for that exact same reason.

If I wasn't an active roleplayer here I wouldn't play FFXIV any longer for the exact same reason. Every class feels the same so it really doesn't matter which one I play anymore.

Good. Maybe people will stop complaining about not being able to get a house then.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

For me, the exact reason I quit playing WoW is the simplification and homogenization of classes. I play on private servers now in old expansions where my class actually has an identity and things they bring to the table that other classes do not. I also play other older MMORPGs like City of Heroes and Everquest p1999 for that exact same reason.

If I wasn't an active roleplayer here I wouldn't play FFXIV any longer for the exact same reason. Every class feels the same so it really doesn't matter which one I play anymore.

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So you play at a time when it was.....simpler? I'm confused as to why you go back to old expansions where you didn't have as much skills. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the classics just as much as anyone else, but the simple fact that the developers of FFXIV understand that the game feels a tad....complicated when it comes to controller players places the blame on those people. I shouldn't have to start using a M/K because the game demands it, which it doesn't, the meta community does i.e. ultimate, savage. The fact that I can play this game from my couch and still clear savage content is a testament to design of this game. Again don't get me wrong there are some things that I detest to savage, enrage comes to mind and I think enrage timers are incredibly lackluster to mechanics, but hey that's me.

Reducing button bloat IS NOT a red flag of simplifying a game. It's removing frustration of some jobs that just really have WAY to many buttons. I actually have to remove ALL my AOE buttons when I raid just so I can have everything on my main X-hotbar with out using to much switching or fumbling around.

Those that play on M/K as an Astro should BOW to those Astro's that play on controller. ESPECISALLY in P4S during Pinax....

The current method of adding buttons to jobs should be forgotten and replaced with TRAITS upgrading skills. It's simpler and you can still create new and interesting dynamics. Dragoon comes to mind with all the changes made for 60-80 you get maybe 1 actual ability/skill. Everything else is traited...which still changes how the job plays. Atonement on Paladin also comes to mind....trait that crap and change Royal Authority to atonement on completion. Currently Atonement is on the GCD anyway so it only makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So you play at a time when it was.....simpler? I'm confused as to why you go back to old expansions where you didn't have as much skills. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the classics just as much as anyone else, but the simple fact that the developers of FFXIV understand that the game feels a tad....complicated when it comes to controller players places the blame on those people. I shouldn't have to start using a M/K because the game demands it, which it doesn't, the meta community does i.e. ultimate, savage. The fact that I can play this game from my couch and still clear savage content is a testament to design of this game. Again don't get me wrong there are some things that I detest to savage, enrage comes to mind and I think enrage timers are incredibly lackluster to mechanics, but hey that's me.

Reducing button bloat IS NOT a red flag of simplifying a game. It's removing frustration of some jobs that just really have WAY to many buttons. I actually have to remove ALL my AOE buttons when I raid just so I can have everything on my main X-hotbar with out using to much switching or fumbling around.

Those that play on M/K as an Astro should BOW to those Astro's that play on controller. ESPECISALLY in P4S during Pinax....

The current method of adding buttons to jobs should be forgotten and replaced with TRAITS upgrading skills. It's simpler and you can still create new and interesting dynamics. Dragoon comes to mind with all the changes made for 60-80 you get maybe 1 actual ability/skill. Everything else is traited...which still changes how the job plays. Atonement on Paladin also comes to mind....trait that crap and change Royal Authority to atonement on completion. Currently Atonement is on the GCD anyway so it only makes sense.

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It's not really the button bloat that people are mad about them addressing. It is the buttons that are being removed. Again I am not understanding where players are not understanding that part. No one wants more buttons, but no one wants iconic skills removed either.

Man I can't wait for PS support to end again.

But I've savaged raided just fine with a controller back when we had "bloat".

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So you play at a time when it was.....simpler? I'm confused as to why you go back to old expansions where you didn't have as much skills. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the classics just as much as anyone else, but the simple fact that the developers of FFXIV understand that the game feels a tad....complicated when it comes to controller players places the blame on those people. I shouldn't have to start using a M/K because the game demands it, which it doesn't, the meta community does i.e. ultimate, savage. The fact that I can play this game from my couch and still clear savage content is a testament to design of this game. Again don't get me wrong there are some things that I detest to savage, enrage comes to mind and I think enrage timers are incredibly lackluster to mechanics, but hey that's me.

Reducing button bloat IS NOT a red flag of simplifying a game. It's removing frustration of some jobs that just really have WAY to many buttons. I actually have to remove ALL my AOE buttons when I raid just so I can have everything on my main X-hotbar with out using to much switching or fumbling around.

Those that play on M/K as an Astro should BOW to those Astro's that play on controller. ESPECISALLY in P4S during Pinax....

The current method of adding buttons to jobs should be forgotten and replaced with TRAITS upgrading skills. It's simpler and you can still create new and interesting dynamics. Dragoon comes to mind with all the changes made for 60-80 you get maybe 1 actual ability/skill. Everything else is traited...which still changes how the job plays. Atonement on Paladin also comes to mind....trait that crap and change Royal Authority to atonement on completion. Currently Atonement is on the GCD anyway so it only makes sense.

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I think s/he is referring copy / paste jobs.

If you level 1 healer you don't have to try others because all of them same with different animation (excluding AST for unique card system.. but overall same thing 1 dot 1 dps skill with excessive healing skills, card system bonus).

DPS & tank jobs currently feels different but eventually SE will "fix" it :)

The fact that controller support is being blamed shows a very large degree of ignorance.

Controller issues are outside of combat. Inside combat they perform just as well as K+M, its all preference. Some find controller much easier to manage 30 buttons, some find K+M easier. They both work fine. The fact that MMORPG mice are popular speaks to the fact that many people find standard K+M limiting as well.

There 48 easily available slots to work with without swapping to a new hot bar.

The bigger problem to me isnt the number of buttons, its that complex rotations are (imo) tedious. Part of the reason why WoW shines in combat is that it keeps you on your toes more with what to press more. WoWs peak was also perhaps its peak simplicity in combat, but it was engaging. The 'simplification' thing that, imo, drove people away was removal of talent trees.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

It's not really the button bloat that people are mad about them addressing. It is the buttons that are being removed. Again I am not understanding where players are not understanding that part. No one wants more buttons, but no one wants iconic skills removed either.

Man I can't wait for PS support to end again.

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If the developers had the foresight to know where the game would be mechanically from ARR to now....I don't think they would have added more buttons. They would have traited EVERYTHING, then nobody would be crying at the moon with the removal of SAM buttons if they never added them in the first place. Hind sight is always 20/20.

I didn't care when they removed positionals from MNK for the sake of smoother gameplay. Anybody remember the REQUIRED positionals of Dragoon?

Four out of the 8 players in my static play on PS5 and I don't hear them whining about...."it's to hard...ugh" or "man I wish this game was more homogenized so it was easier to play".

It's actually the opposite when you think about it. It's harder to play on controller then it is on keyboard. With the vast amount of control you have on M/K they game is actually easier as I have almost literally everything at the ready on my main hotbars. Just a simple click of any skill.

With controller you really have to get clever with your skills and abilities and how you group them. If you place to many GCD abilities on your left side (D-Pad) it really hinders your movement with the left stick. Muscle memory plays a big part, and the game really becomes like a fighting game in style of how you press your buttons. i.e. Combo 1 = R2, Triangle, Circle, X or Gap Closer = R2+L2, Up. Again your muscle memory starts to take over when you place skills/abilities.

I honestly don't understand how people would rather play on M/K. Sometimes all I hear in the discord channel is keyboard clicks of them just constantly pushing a button 30 times every 2 seconds for an entire 10 min fight. I get why they do it...but I don't understand the "gotta hit this button 90 times....ok now that button....ok now that button." it's kind of silly when you think about it. I suppose as a controller player I have trained myself to hit the button a couple times just before the GCD comes off. I'll ready have my trigger combo ready for the next GCD or fight mechanic. When I play on keyboard it just feels less responsive to me for some reason...like having to shift or Ctrl my way through combos feels clunky to me.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

The fact that controller support is being blamed shows a very large degree of ignorance.

Controller issues are outside of combat. Inside combat they perform just as well as K+M, its all preference. Some find controller much easier to manage 30 buttons, some find K+M easier. They both work fine. The fact that MMORPG mice are popular speaks to the fact that many people find standard K+M limiting as well.

There 48 easily available slots to work with without swapping to a new hot bar.

The bigger problem to me isnt the number of buttons, its that complex rotations are (imo) tedious. Part of the reason why WoW shines in combat is that it keeps you on your toes more with what to press more. WoWs peak was also perhaps its peak simplicity in combat, but it was engaging. The 'simplification' thing that, imo, drove people away was removal of talent trees.

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Great answer. I loved Cataclysm personally. It was perfect looking back on the amount of buttons and Heroics. It was pretty much the only time I felt WoW was "perfect".

Eh, required positionals weren't that bad and to be fair the game did have a solid balance of complexity and approachablity in SB. However, they've swung too far one way in ShB and now EW.

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

I understand accessibility, but there is also supposed to be a progression in difficulty or complexity as things go on, no? To build upon previous concepts learned? I'm not a game designer, but I think that's a core staple. Here, though, we seem to keep things at a basic level.

I forget who suggested this, but I'll parrot it; I wish there was a mode where things are consolidated and easier for those who want to have that sort of experience; and then have the same content available for people who prefer a little more going on. Sort of like: Solo - Duty Finder, or maybe even some radical change akin to choosing a style in fighting games (Simple Input Method vs Advanced, etc.). Perhaps the Trust System can be used to make this sort of thing happen and we slowly bring back some difficulty.

I don't know where I'm going with this!

Feel free to pick apart my takes!

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

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The problem is, "class identity" and high difficulty in small group content do not fit really good. Because if the classes are too different then it is very likely that one class handles some situations way better than the other. Imagine, you have a fight with a great number of adds. Then you have a class with good AoE and a class without AoE. Which class would you choose for this content?

And then it comes, that the players create a meta for this specific content. If you do not fit that meta then they kick you out of their group. And yes, it happened already in other games like WoW. :) You are an elemental shaman and you want to do heroic Shattered Halls or heroic Magister's Terasse? Become a healer or GTFO. Because classes with crowd control made those instances way easier and an elemental shaman did not have very good CC. The perfect meta was 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 mages. :)



Cheers

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

I understand accessibility, but there is also supposed to be a progression in difficulty or complexity as things go on, no? To build upon previous concepts learned? I'm not a game designer, but I think that's a core staple. Here, though, we seem to keep things at a basic level.

I forget who suggested this, but I'll parrot it; I wish there was a mode where things are consolidated and easier for those who want to have that sort of experience; and then have the same content available for people who prefer a little more going on. Sort of like: Solo - Duty Finder, or maybe even some radical change akin to choosing a style in fighting games (Simple Input Method vs Advanced, etc.). Perhaps the Trust System can be used to make this sort of thing happen and we slowly bring back some difficulty.

I don't know where I'm going with this!

Feel free to pick apart my takes!

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There was some discussion on that here.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Blizzard stopped reporting subscriptions during WotLK, and the player base began to decline as the expansion grew older. Everything came to a head, and exploded in Blizzards face with the release of Cataclysm.

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Blizz stopped reporting subs during WoD when the game lost 50% of its playerbase due to bad game management decisions.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Yoshi P said in a video that FFXIV wouldn't exist were it not for WoW. The game was a major inspirational source for this game. My question really is: Is the dev team willing to learn from the mistakes Blizzard made?

Blizzard literally went on a raging simplification spree. Notably pruning and removing tons of abilities from each class and specializations in the name of "accessibility". Shortly after the game went downhill big time. Skill expression is today completely gone in WoW. Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

I truly do not understand why the developers want to do the same thing to FFXIV. Heck, Blizzard even recently stated that pruning was a mistake. They're now trying to "undo" the damage, but that's likely going to take multiple expansions of work. Why on earth would you want to repeat this same mistake in FFXIV?

Having easy jobs is perfectly fine, but there needs to be jobs that offer also medium difficulty and high difficulty. Pruning and dumbing down existing jobs is not in any way acceptable, and is an insult to players who main those jobs. If you want to make something simple, then you need to create new jobs that are simple from the beginning - period. People are invested in their jobs and you're actively disrespecting their affection by making changes none of them asked for.

By all means, continue to remove abilities and make the game play itself. You will not gain more subs; but you will lose half your player base from your arrogance.

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I love that the Hardcore Minority think they are half the user base lol if that was the case FFXIV 1.0 would of made it since that game was made for you people.

WoW died when they started making it hard in CATA and then insulted the casuals with the joke race expansion. Now the staff there makes content as hard as possible and no one plays anymore except you people.

I feel like the OP is taking one largely irrelevant piece completely out of context and ignoring the much bigger issues that caused WoW to plummet in popularity. Namely - taking away flying and gating it behind Pathfinder (which isn't completely until about a year after the xpac has launched), borrowed power systems layered on top of borrowed power systems, and an all-in push to the toxic cesspool that is competitive e-sports (e.g. Mythic+ dungeons).

FFXIV has actually stayed away from precisely those things that brought WoW down, and maintained the very things that drove its popularity (tokens for deterministic gear, flying available early on, focus on RPG and story over e-sports, etc.). FFXIV has exploded in popularity as WoW has gone downhill, and the path they're heading down is most likely to keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

WoW died when they started making it hard in CATA and then insulted the casuals with the joke race expansion. Now the staff there makes content as hard as possible and no one plays anymore except you people.

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Which is funny now since many look back at Pandaria being a good expansion because of the story and class design. The problem is when we do a lot of hindsight -- there tends to be a lot of mixed reactions that change perspective than originally intended.

It's not about being "hardcore", so stop using that as a catch all for people bored with current job design. It's about not being so braindead in a variety of content as to not put you to sleep.

I'm curious about the OP's statement, as a relatively new player (started in Oct 2021). My experience with the whole thing, as I started on a Summoner, was that when I reached just around Shadowbringers or just a little bit before that, I started to really dislike Summoner. I started levelling other jobs because I found it overcomplicated. I don't have enough time to dedicate to the game to learn the somewhat complex mechanics of dungeons and raids AND a skills bar that's like the glossary of an encyclopedia. And then Endwalker dropped (I was still in Shadowbringers) and I hopped back on my Summoner and suddenly it's a love story. We got engaged and married before Endwalker and we're planning on our first kid. Anyways, jokes aside, while I can understand simplification is annoying for hardcore veterans an hardcore challenge-seekers, wouldn't it be ideal if the game offered a mix of complex jobs for the latter, and more simple ones for those who'd rather be a little more casual?

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

I love that the Hardcore Minority think they are half the user base lol if that was the case FFXIV 1.0 would of made it since that game was made for you people.

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Except now more and more “casual majority” players (since you want to make this into an Us Versus Them argument) are getting fed up with jobs being changed and dumbed down. Even casual “non-hardcore minority” healers are complaining about how boring pressing one button is for 90 levels.

1.0 had nothing to do with being “hardcore” and everything to do with poor and unintuitive design.

Please use a new argument—this “casual majority” versus “hardcore minority” argument is tiresome and usually nothing more than a strawman.

Here's something I want people who don't care about the game getting easier cuz "you can just do savage and ultimate 4head"
What about the midcore players who did most content outside of savage? Who primarily farmed alliance roulette and extremes and dungeons who's having to deal with two of those three becoming content you do once then discard? Or who's favorite jobs got dumbed down to appeal to players who dont really play the job like all healers or summoner? What do you do if savage and ultimate are just too draining and normal is too easy to be engaging and hardmode has been missing since HW?

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Originally Posted by Gunn-e

wouldn't it be ideal if the game offered a mix of complex jobs for the latter, and more simple ones for those who'd rather be a little more casual?

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the problem is there is no complex option anymore. Summoner was the go to busy job for people who liked that and red mage was the less complicated one. now they just made summoner an easier bard essentially. Same with scholar turning into whm with a fairy in shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

Here's something I want people who don't care about the game getting easier cuz "you can just do savage and ultimate 4head"
What about the midcore players who did most content outside of savage? Who primarily farmed alliance roulette and extremes and dungeons who's having to deal with two of those three becoming content you do once then discard? Or who's favorite jobs got dumbed down to appeal to players who dont really play the job like all healers or summoner? What do you do if savage and ultimate are just too draining and normal is too easy to be engaging and hardmode has been missing since HW?

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The problem has always been that there isnt any midcore bridge content from Normal to Savage. Some people will say Extremes, but thats really debateable.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

The problem has always been that there isnt any midcore bridge content from Normal to Savage. Some people will say Extremes, but thats really debateable.

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It used to be Extremes to an extent. Some were tuned to be between the second and third Savage floor in terms of difficulty (usually the odd-number patch primals, so things like Shinryu EX and Tsukuyomi EX); others were harder than a lot of current Savage fights (Thordan EX and Sephirot EX); and others still were easier than the first current Savage floor (Byakko EX and Suzaku EX). But generally, yes, they were considered to be the bridge. Now? They’re definitely not harder than current Savage—the two we have now are jokes (though, so is P1S, to be quite fair—the only thing it has going for it is Intemperance being a gotcha mechanic for those who don’t know how to do it).

I’ll be curious to see where Endsinger sits, and to see if it does fall between P2S and P3S.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

Blizz stopped reporting subs during WoD when the game lost 50% of its playerbase due to bad game management decisions.

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And this was before the flying debacle. They lost way more than 50% before they stopped reporting. Rough estimates around that time were around 2 million players and still dropping fast. Down from 10 million at the start of that expansion.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

The problem has always been that there isnt any midcore bridge content from Normal to Savage. Some people will say Extremes, but thats really debateable.

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I whole heartedly agree! I feel like in ARR that's what hard modes were for. but also back then we even had hardmode dungeons which I personally was a fan of.

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Originally Posted by Gunn-e

I'm curious about the OP's statement, as a relatively new player (started in Oct 2021). My experience with the whole thing, as I started on a Summoner, was that when I reached just around Shadowbringers or just a little bit before that, I started to really dislike Summoner. I started levelling other jobs because I found it overcomplicated. I don't have enough time to dedicate to the game to learn the somewhat complex mechanics of dungeons and raids AND a skills bar that's like the glossary of an encyclopedia. And then Endwalker dropped (I was still in Shadowbringers) and I hopped back on my Summoner and suddenly it's a love story. We got engaged and married before Endwalker and we're planning on our first kid. Anyways, jokes aside, while I can understand simplification is annoying for hardcore veterans an hardcore challenge-seekers, wouldn't it be ideal if the game offered a mix of complex jobs for the latter, and more simple ones for those who'd rather be a little more casual?

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Honestly, I preferred when there was more of a gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. Nothing in this game that the more “casual” players will enjoy doing would require optimized performance. However, I liked having small things to optimize in my jobs that weren’t necessary to clear content, but still fun to do to push that little bit extra out of them. ShB brought about a lot of changes that were made to decrease the gap between those at the skill floor and those who pushed towards the skill ceiling. I remember BRD changes from SB to ShB specifically citing that they were made to close the gap because players that didn’t do “as much damage” as BRDs that were optimizing or min-maxing “might feel bad” for not doing as well. The reality of this is, is that those same players are very likely to be blissfully unaware of their performance, so what was there to “feel bad” about?

Having a gap between the floor and the ceiling isn’t a bad thing—but jobs seem to be changed consistently to cater to those at the floor while ignoring that those who reached for the ceiling found enjoyment in doing so. When the floor is on the ceiling, there’s little for the latter to reach for—and that’s when the complaints start.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except now more and more “casual majority” players (since you want to make this into an Us Versus Them argument) are getting fed up with jobs being changed and dumbed down. Even casual “non-hardcore minority” healers are complaining about how boring pressing one button is for 90 levels.

1.0 had nothing to do with being “hardcore” and everything to do with poor and unintuitive design.

Please use a new argument—this “casual majority” versus “hardcore minority” argument is tiresome and usually nothing more than a strawman.

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No what you are hearing is Hardcore Players who think this game is to easy and claiming to be casual and posting here. Most of the people on the forums are not casuals. Thats why a survey wouldn't help since the majority who would answer it are a minority of the consumer base. Basically stats can show us what people are playing and not playing and it can show where the problem is. Warrior is not being played by the majority of tanks because of the cone. This might change now it has an circle instead of a cone.

FFXIV 1.0 even Yoshi P and staff said the staff who made FF11 felt because they made a profit before they can do the same thing all over again. FFXIV 1.0 was a failure because no casual wanted to play it and those playing it were the hardcore fanbase.

It's hilarious how people, without any evidence to back their claims up, just say "half of XYZ will leave cause of this and the game will die". Yeah no, it won't and you have no idea at all how people think about this. This thread here is like IRL politics, there is the minority who just screams everytime something happens no matter what and the overwhelming majority doesn't even care in the slightest.

So yeah, voicing your opinions is valid but for the love of Hydaelyn please stop trying to speak for others. Cause you have no clue how the silent majority feels about this clearly.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

No what you are hearing is Hardcore Players who think this game is to easy and claiming to be casual and posting here. Most of the people on the forums are not casuals. Thats why a survey wouldn't help since the majority who would answer it are a minority of the consumer base. Basically stats can show us what people are playing and not playing and it can show where the problem is. Warrior is not being played by the majority of tanks because of the cone. This might change now it has an circle instead of a cone.

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In my 5+ years of posting on here, I would hardly call those who post on here “hardcore minority” players. Or say that they hold any huge sway here. There are “casual majority” players coming here to complain about the jobs—from the healers to the changes that were made to NIN and SAM for 6.1. The latter is actually the first instance of all three communities—I guess I could also say 4 now because of OCE—being critical of something at the same time. It’s kind of staggering how even JP is like, “Who asked for these changes?”.

I highly doubt that WAR’s unpopularity came from Overpower being a cone, and likely more so from the job playing literally the exact same for 4+ years. Unless you can cite a source to prove me wrong, this seems like a huge reach.

If stats show the problems, then why are the healers still suffering from their boring gameplay. Unofficial censes put healers at the least played role in various level ranges—yet we’re lucky to get mana adjustments. Usually we’re just told to wait until this patch or that patch, and get a bandaid at best. Even with the small victories we got for 6.1, we had to be outraged over them for a very long time—and they still do not address the core issues with the role.

There are also other DPS jobs that have been suffering for years (MCH), yet barely anything is done to rectify the true problems with the class. It took them years to actually get MNK right—before EW, it was consistently the least played DPS, and consistently had a high amount of complaints surrounding its gameplay and changes made to it. The developers have a tendency to cling to certain designs, even if they are harmful to the job because the community plays them a lot differently than how the developers think we play them.

Quote:

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FFXIV 1.0 even Yoshi P and staff said the staff who made FF11 felt because they made a profit before they can do the same thing all over again. FFXIV 1.0 was a failure because no casual wanted to play it and those playing it were the hardcore fanbase.

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That wasn’t why 1.0 failed, but you can keep telling yourself that.

Listen everyone, no one is asking to turn every fight into an EX tier difficulty slog but at the same time no one wants to pay for a monthly sleeping aid in terms of combat. People are getting upset that the few reasons to move around or think about their job/class are getting removed for what sounds like an AI issue for their trusts and to lure in players that normally would not play an MMO or video game. Oh well, they kneecapped drk during StB so the only horse I had this race was turned into glue so it's all moot to me imo, lol.

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Originally Posted by MagicalChase

the problem is there is no complex option anymore. Summoner was the go to busy job for people who liked that and red mage was the less complicated one. now they just made summoner an easier bard essentially. Same with scholar turning into whm with a fairy in shadowbringers.

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Okay, I was just wondering. I thought Black Mage and some others filled that role. I'm rather new to FF14 but vet to mmorpgs and I know the playerbase can be quick to anger, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones. Got another noob question, too. Isn't the difficulty increase of duties compensating for the simplification of skills and such? I mean, when I replay pre-SHB duties, it's plain to see they were much easier.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

No what you are hearing is Hardcore Players who think this game is to easy and claiming to be casual and posting here. Most of the people on the forums are not casuals. Thats why a survey wouldn't help since the majority who would answer it are a minority of the consumer base. Basically stats can show us what people are playing and not playing and it can show where the problem is. Warrior is not being played by the majority of tanks because of the cone. This might change now it has an circle instead of a cone.

FFXIV 1.0 even Yoshi P and staff said the staff who made FF11 felt because they made a profit before they can do the same thing all over again. FFXIV 1.0 was a failure because no casual wanted to play it and those playing it were the hardcore fanbase.

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This you?

https://htmlcolorcodes.com/assets/im...-1920x1080.png

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

This you?

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Pffffffffffffffff! So am not the only one who also maybe perhaps occasionally searches the publically available repository of manually compiled spread sheet data. Sometimes I wish I did not.. morbid curiosity hurts..

Not one single fight or flight cast. Request a cat straaaaaiiiight into Confetti doors yummy.

It is always those who refuse to put effort who are the most surprised when the seven other people are sick of having back problems. The same talking heads with the same fricken bad takes one after the other. They are in every. single. one of these threads. Every single one.

No little Timmy if you were the majority no one would be allowed to drive cars anymore.

Seriously? You get fight or flight at level two. Maahhh.. How the heck do you not learn to use fight or flight? You cannot make a game for people like this because the medium was not designed for them. Sports are not for everyone and neither are video games and some are not suited to work with others in team environment.

Edit; Annnnnd no goring blade either. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

This you?

https://htmlcolorcodes.com/assets/im...-1920x1080.png

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This is a meme of some sort? Because a solid gray background doesn't say anything, and you're attempt at ?humor? falls flat to those of us who don't follow.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is a meme of some sort? Because a solid gray background doesn't say anything, and you're attempt at ?humor? falls flat to those of us who don't follow.

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I think she called em' a grey. Pretty rude tbh, lol. /s