Oh, yeah, exactly because of what we're talking about. Because there's more to him than just that. There would be no point to bring him back if the entirety of his character was just what people describe him as: a boring evil bad villain who just wants to kill people and its boring and not interesting and boring and evil and boring and... You get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
There is more to his character, and I think he just tipped his toe into it at the final moments of Endwalker, despite being around since SB. Just like there was more to Garlemald and Ascians, despite them being around since 1.0, lol.
FFXIV characters and events are always under a slow cooking process to bring out the flavor in them.
Meteion was a special case because they wanted to end everything in one single expansion, so she got one single, very hurried arc, that was shared with introducing us to Elpis. But she deserved more, in my opinion.
Whoever says "I want new things", still doesn't understand FFXIV. We can have Meracydia, for example, but with it, we'll get story arcs for allagan people as well, who have been mentioned countless times, but always out of context. Every expansion is always new things, but with old things receiving context through it.
-
12-13-2021, 01:01 PMNyannCat
-
12-13-2021, 01:04 PMMagiusNecros
They weren't done with Zenos at that point. Thordan was a one and done. I still think Zenos as a character still isn't done yet. Most of Endwalker is Zenos reflecting on himself. They've had the Zodiark story arc planned out for a while.
Stormblood overall was the weakest expansion XIV has ever had IMO. It made Shadowbringers that much better by Stormblood being weak.
You know Thordan is done because he turned into pure Aether.
Zenos does not and because he is a Resonant, he cannot truly die unless they use weapons similar in potency to kill Ascians which the WoL specifically does not use in this rematch.
He will be back I think.
I also hope they use Meteion more in the future since the original Meteion survived. Or implies that they do. Very much like the character. -
12-13-2021, 01:05 PMElysidelphiBeautifully said, truly.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyannCat
Your posts make me smile and give me hope. Thank you so much. -
12-13-2021, 01:27 PMElysidelphiYes, exactly! Well said, Zenos was mostly reflecting on himself throughout Endwalker. I got that feeling too. With him wandering around so much, always seeking something. Asking himself what he saw in us and what we saw in him, self-reflection. Also, when Alisaie talked to him and told him that if he didn't change he would always be alone and die without any friends, you see that it affects Zenos, he stops, he hesitates, and then he starts to reflect about what he sees in the WoL and what the WoL sees in himself. It's quite subtle, but it feels like he's growing when you see him capable of self-reflection like that. And at the start of the final duty, he gives the WoL the option to walk away from the fight. I know others in this thread have already mentioned this, but yeah, old Zenos wouldn't give that option, so even that, while appearing something tiny, is huge given that it's Zenos we're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Oh and also his armour sets. In Stormblood and parts of Shadowbringers he was in heavy armour, but slowly he changes into lighter armour, maybe that's a clue or a hint as well. Maybe the heavy armour was meant to represent his walls, his distance from others, while the lighter armour is meant to represent him lowering his walls. Might be a hint. Also, his final speech to us, the things he says, his tone of voice, they all may be hints. The fact that he says he never understood those around him, what drove them, this sounds like a very intimate confession, something I wouldn't see him saying to us in Stormblood for example.
Something else worth mentioning, before we start our duel, the way he talks to us, especially if we choose option 1 and say "That, I cannot deny", his reaction, his happiness, his voice, his smile, the way he looks at us, it feels so personal, almost like he cares about us. That we can have that effect on his state of mind. When he's usually apathetic and appears bored out of his mind, that we can make him feel so happy just by admitting that one thing and agreeing to the duel. The fact that we have that influence over him is quite something. I think it shows that he cares about us as a friend, which is why I'm hoping for his redemption.
I've also read a theory, that after the duel with Zenos, when we receive that teleportation device, apparently there's an option in-game to talk to Urianger about that and Urianger speculates that maybe Zenos himself wished for us the WoL to be teleported out of there and since we were surrounded by dynamis, that teleportation device appeared. I have not yet investigated this option on my own, but if it is true, it can have a lot of implications, one of which being that Zenos cares about us and doesn't want us to die right there and then even if it would be by his own hand, and if this wish of his is true, it may be a hint of future things to come. -
12-13-2021, 01:29 PMGothicshark
no. He had a full 2 expansions being relevant.
-
12-13-2021, 01:30 PMHyoMinParkYou said that the writers could give him redeeming qualities. Qualities that he never had to begin with. And now you want him to have them for what reason? For a redemption arc. That was how you opened this thread—Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
I don’t think that Zenos was ever meant to have redeeming qualities. He was likely meant to be nothing more than the emotionless, selfish monster that he was written as. Which generally fine. It’s okay to have characters like that. The issue with him is that he has been marketed as the big bad guy for two expansions now, and has fallen flat each time. There have been better villains in the same expansion, and when you juxtapose him against the likes of Yotsuyu (Stormblood) or Fandaniel (Endwalker)—or even Meteion/Endsinger—they fulfill the main antagonist role much better than Zenos did. He was essentially a background character; bordering on a non-entity because of how little he actually affected the outcome of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
A redemption arc is impossible for him—at least, a well-written one—because he has no redeeming qualities. And to suddenly give him some would be a recharacterization of who he is. Your desire for a more in-depth story is part selfishness because of your adoration for his character, but it also heavily comes across as “I don’t want him to be just wasted potential so let’s bring him back again and make something out of him”. Which is sunk cost fallacy territory.Quote:
I am not asking for a character retcon for Zenos. I am asking for him to be developed properly, either in a redemption arc (because personality is fluid, and people can learn and change) or be kept as a villain or made into an anti-hero, but again, with actual stuff to do, with an in-depth story.
If you’ve done all the role quests from Shadowbringers, you actually see two of the above characters present within them—and both actually receive development. But since you haven’t done them, I will not spoil which ones or what their development is. Either way, some of the characters you have listed up here have been side-story characters—they were not marketed as the main antagonist for two expansions.Quote:
Besides Zenos, there are many other characters without proper developments such as Unukalhai, Cylva, Lahabrea, Elidibus, the other Sundered Ascians, etc. Just because they are old characters they shouldn't be ignored or forgotten about.
Lahabrea is a bit tricky since the main antagonist for ARR was portrayed to be Gaius and the Empire (carryover from 1.0), but then he pops in. And no one has ever denied that he was been underdeveloped—especially with what Emet-Selch and Elidibus got in 5.0 and 5.x, respectfully. Elidibus was never marketed as a main antagonist—he was always in the background up until the end of 5.0 where he said he was going to take things into his own hands after the fall of Emet-Selch. And the writers actually did a phenomenal job with him. In just 5.3 alone, he was made into an interesting, riveting character. When have they done this with Zenos? Again, the character that they market as the big bad for both Stormblood and Endwalker, and try to market as our foil/mirror?
Tl;dr—your comparisons are poor. You’re comparing secondary and tertiary characters (with the exception of Lahabrea in ARR and Elidibus only in post-5.0) to a main antagonist.
If you bring back Zenos, then it would be a rehash—how can you move on when you keep bringing back the same guy who’s sole desire in life is to fight us? Unless you are proposing he turn suddenly good and join the Scions. Which, that would be a terrible fanfiction.Quote:
You can move on to new world, have new villains and still explore older characters. It isn't mutually exclusive.
You still aren’t seeing my full argument here—Zenos wanted to destroy the world and killed people, but he also had nothing more to his character than that. Where as both Meteion and Emet-Selch showed that they weren’t just selfish, homicidal maniacs. They weren’t utterly terrible people. You can’t redeem someone who is flat-out a terrible person—which Zenos has shown himself to be nothing more than what his father called him “a spoiled princeling”.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyannCat
Meteion wanted to bring about the Final Days to spare civilizations of the hopelessness and despair that came from chasing perfection to the point of dehumanization (these two were especially present in the Omnicrons and Eas). Her motive was a very extreme answer to a “greater good”—a “it’s better for me to put them out of their misery”, if you want to think of it that way.
Emet-Selch wanted to rejoin the Shards to the Source so that Zodiark could break free of his chains, and use the remainder of those on the Source that would survive calamities to restore his world and his people—which he considered a “noble cause”. It’s a selfish motive when you view it from our perspective, but I don’t see anyone stating otherwise.
Zenos agreed to help Fandaniel usher in the Final Days for the sole purpose of making us “hungry enough” to fight him like some kind of rabid beast. That was it. There was no “greater good” motive to his actions. And he never expressed any sort of regret or even feeling really at this. All he cared about was getting his in the end.
I disagree. I don’t see Zenos having any of the qualities that would make an antihero an antihero. Antiheros tend to be guided by good intentions—they just fulfill them in ways that go against the conventional heroism, and tend to have a dubious moral code. How does Zenos fulfill this? He doesn’t have a moral code at all. He possesses a complete disregard for everything but for the one thing he wants: fighting us to feel good. Which it isn’t inherently bad to have a selfish villain, but you can’t say that he’s antihero potential.Quote:
He does not have qualities that could redeem him and make him into a Scion, for example, for that I agree, but as I have said before: he has all the personality and background to be an anti-hero. All of it.
I am not painting him as a victim, I am saying he was once a villain and he can become an anti-hero. I'm saying he has all the potential to be a great character, not a good guy, but still a great character.
An antihero example in this game would be Ysayle. She led Ishgardian heretics with the good intention of bringing to light the truth of the Dragonsong War. But she went about doing this is destructive and morally gray ways. She killed people in the name of “the greater good”. And she never tried to deny that. She acted with the best intentions in her mind—but they methods she utilized were questionable at absolute best. That’s an antihero.
I’m not being blindly dismissive—I just simply don’t see the need to have to wait around for 4+ years for a marketed main character (in this case, a marketed main antagonist) to be made into something that is not a non-entity. They’ve had two expansions to do something meaningful with him. They achieved a sliver of that—probably the best they can—with the ending of EW (even though I personally hated him being shoehorned in there because it ruined the emotional catharsis of the scene with Meteion for me). Why do we need to drag this out for a third one? Or for even another patch series?Quote:
If people are blindly defensive, you're being blindly dismissive of all that the character can still bring to the table. You're saying that the character should be trashed just because he didn't do anything big and meaninful in two expansions, while Ascians were the absolute same for ARR, HW and SB. Ascians were plain boring, just going "oh lord zodiark hohoho please come back lord zodiark, yes, let's summon primals to bring back lord zodiark". And then came shadowbringers and we were struck by "oh... maybe there's more to ascians than just making beast tribes summon primals".
You said it yourself: he did nothing in two expansions. As “boring” as you claim the Ascians were in ARR and HW (you can’t even count SB because they played no part in the main storyline—nor were they supposed to), they did more than Zenos did: between their manipulation of Gaius in ARR and Thordan in HW, they already played a bigger villain role than Zenos. He was just kind of there and was never really a huge, looming threat.
Well, first of all, you’re shifting the goal posts here—I’ve never mentioned Ascians as a whole. I mentioned Emet-Selch primarily, and briefly Elidibus and Fandaniel. You are the one mentioning Ascians as a whole. And secondly, no, those characters had not had any redemption arcs. Please point out where these redemption arcs even were. They never gave Elidibus or Emet-Selch redemption arcs. They died as villains; they never tried to redeem themselves in the eyes of our character or us, the player. Emet-Selch even admits in the ending scenes of EW that he doesn’t regret his choices, nor would he change them.Quote:
You're saying that they have "qualities that zenos does not", but you're saying it NOW, after they had their redemption arcs, lol. I don't think you'd say Ascians had development and depth back in stormblood or even half of shadowbringers. We didn't know Emet-Selch had solid, loving reasons until we reached Amaurot, the last zone of shadowbringers.
Aside from those three, the other villain I’ve talked about in here was Yotsuyu—who, again, did not get a redemption arc. Nor did she deserve one. In all honestly, the only character that has really had any sort of redemption arc in this game is Gaius—and maybe you can argue Ysayle as well. The others have lived and died as they were.
The qualities I’m talking about are qualities that would make a redemption arc believable—and I already outlined them above. I’m not going to reiterate them here.
The characters I have mentioned have had development arcs much shorter than Zenos. Again, you are missing the main points of my arguments. I disagree with it being acceptable practice to wait 4+ years for a main villain to actually become a main villain, and not a side attraction.Quote:
I don't think you're being fair at your judgement when you say one character is more valid than the other just because they already had their development arcs. He's still in the middle, if not the start of his. Again, he will never be seen as an actual good guy like Ancients were, but that's not his role either.
I'm not being defensive, I just think you have the wrong perspective on the thing.
-
12-13-2021, 01:42 PMnighttimebunny
I think Zenos really cares for us. It is up for player interpretation about how he cares for us whether that be as a friend or romantically but that last scene was definitely intimate and no one can tell me otherwise :3 We're the only thing that makes him happy. He thinks it's just through fighting us but what he really needs is a hug. <3
-
12-13-2021, 02:09 PMSilverObiBig "he may be a serial killer but he has gorgeous eyes" energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
y i k e s -
12-13-2021, 02:15 PMnighttimebunny
omg, people like a fictional, physically attractive, mysterious male character? hmm
anyways, i'm glad that got a reaction ;) -
12-13-2021, 03:12 PMMykhelI respectfully disagree. Zenos was the iconic "singular purpose villain." He lived for the rush of combat--the thrill of the hunt, if you will. He lacked any other characteristic--quite literally--as he stated time and time again... helping the warrior of light just to get their attention... with the ultimate goal of a rematch. I loved that he was a sidestory. The proverbial "unfinished business." He quite literally followed you to the edge of existence for his rematch--allowing the final battle to take place on his back. I thought the story served him well. He was of course disappointed he lost in the end, but you could tell he was finally "satisfied." His ending suited him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
-
12-13-2021, 03:26 PMMagiusNecros
If they kill him off can we get his Vampire Coat and amazing Garlean armor. Many thanks. Would look great on Femroe.
-
12-13-2021, 03:37 PMMiracle_DivaI'm just going to leave this here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
12-13-2021, 09:54 PMHyoMinParkStill doesn’t change my stance, nor any of my arguments in this thread. He is not deserving of a redemption arc, attempting to write one for him would be in poor taste, and he should be just left to rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva
-
12-13-2021, 10:12 PMMiracle_DivaYeah, I get it, you don't like the character, that's absolutely fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
But it's quite ironic that characters like Meteion on your list get a pass for murdering civilizations because they have "a good reason" and therefore it's fine, but Zenos doesn't have a noble goal, therefore he's a bad choice for a redemption arc.
Mind you, I'm not asking for a redemption arc for Zenos. -
12-13-2021, 11:43 PMIllmaeranAgreed! He needs to stay dead and out of the story. He wore out his welcome in Stormblood, to say nothing of Shadowbringers. He may look cool and act all edgy-chic, but he's the most poorly written villain the game's ever had. Please, for the love of all that's right in the world, do not bring him back for any reason at all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiragawa
-
12-13-2021, 11:44 PMAngwaE-S and the other Ascians didn't get a pass for murdering civilizations. Sure, he got the chance to explain why they were doing it all, and kudos to the writers for making the murder of entire worlds not sound bonkers, but it was never going to change the fact it would end in a fight to the death. They were committed to saving their loved ones, so were the Scions and our WoL, and those two goals were mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva
Furthermore, E-S and company also have the mitigating factor of being tempered by Zodiark, which makes all the difference in holding them accountable for their actions, definitely more than the likes of Yotsuyu and Fordola.
Not so with Zenos. His childhood and background could perhaps make us understand the misery he unleashed on Ala Mhigo and Hingashi, explain his sociopathic personality disorder and his tendency to weaponize the trauma of his underlings, but that understanding still would not be forgiveness.
Of course, he went even further, ushering in the apocalypse for the Source and all its reflections with the sole purpose of getting a rematch with the WoL, and at no point showed even a sliver of understanding that any of his actions were wrong, on the contrary even! So, yeah, Vegeta, but with the moral framework of Hannibal Lecter. No thank you, don't want to hang around with that character. -
12-14-2021, 01:04 AMHyoMinParkWhere did I ever say they got a pass? I said that writing redemption arcs for them would be far more believable and plausible versus writing one for Zenos because those characters have qualities that make them redeemable—which you need in order to write a GOOD redemption arc that will not come across as some kind of strange fan fiction. Zenos does not. Giving him a redemption arc when there is nothing redeemable about his character would make the entire storyline implausible. Researching simple writing basics is all you need to tell you this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva
A character has to actually acknowledge their wrong doings and take accountability for their actions—and then strive to be a better person in order for a redemption arc to work. Zenos does not do this. He never takes accountability for what he does. He never acknowledges that he’s done anything wrong. He never tries to improve or grow as a character. His coming to the end of the universe was not to help us or anyone else: it was purely to seek what he wanted, which was to fight us. None of these contribute to a redeemable character. He is a selfish, singularly-driven character; which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. You can totally have characters like that within a story.
Contrasting to him, Emet-Selch, while admitting he would have done nothing differently, at least acknowledges that what he strove to do to save his world ended in failure—and he left what was left of the Source and its reflections to us in the end. Meteion realized the flaw in her desire to “save” us from despair when she realized that happiness cannot exist without the other. Characters like Ysayle realized that what they had done—even when they had good intentions—was inexcusable and instead sought to make amends. These are characters in which writing redemption arcs would be far more plausible. Not villains like Zenos.
And none of this is me “giving them a pass”. I’m just stating simple facts about the characters and applying successful writing techniques with regards to creating successful redemption arcs to them. There is a difference between that and me saying “what they did was a-okay, I forgive them”.
If you’re going to try to argue with me, try actually reading what I’m posting first. Or do some basic writing 101 research. It’s not that difficult to see that he’s not a character in which a redemption arc can be pulled off for and pulled off well. -
12-14-2021, 01:20 AMForteNightshadeExcept nobody is forgiving Meteion or absolving her actions. Nor are they asking to bring the genocidal harbinger of despair itself on an adventure with us now that we understand why they wanted to usher death across the known universe. Furthermore, Meleion falls into a similar category as the Ascians that Angwa brought up. While not tempered per se, she was created to have highly astute emotional aptitude that essentially makes her siphon the emotional state of whatever being she finds. Being sent off to several worlds only to be meant with loneliness and despair while being asked (by Hermes) to determine the meaning of life wholly corrupted her entire thought process due to said power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva
Knowing this still doesn't absolve her subsequent actions or make her redeemable despite them. Even Meteion herself says as much upon defeating her. Zenos has no such excuses. His every action is decided on a selfish, hedonistic pursuit of pleasure. And some people want to simply ignore his many, many horrendous character traits on the basis of Daddy Varus not give him enough cuddles as a boy. I mean, we're literally arguing about a character whose storyline included a not-so-subtle rape metaphor. This is the supposedly redeemable character whose hill needs to be died on. Seriously? -
12-14-2021, 02:56 AMAneshdaOh that idea I have already in my mind. Remember we woke up Elidibus and now remember who talked in the final last moment of the Credits in Elpis ... He gave him a second chance, so Zenos should be his "problem" just like Fandaniel.Quote:
Originally Posted by KitKatnip
-
12-14-2021, 06:19 AMElysidelphiAnd I am saying that Zenos can still do all of those things. He can come back and start on his redemption journey, slowly and properly. Ishikawa clearly has talent for writing good stories and good characters so she could pull this off, I wholeheartedly believe that. It would not retcon or negate his character. It would simply be an evolution, a change for the better. In real life, even the worst kinds of people, can change, improve, learn. A fictional character can also do that. Granted, it would take an in-depth well-developed story to make it believable, but my point is that it can be done, and it can be done well, without coming across as being in poor taste or fan fiction. The message with a character like Zenos should be that even horrible characters can slowly change and improve, they can find this wish within themselves. Just because he has never done this until now does not mean that he can never do it. To compare Zenos with the Ascians: in A Realm Reborn, Heavensward, Stormblood, and like half of Shadowbringers, the Ascians generally came across as bringers of chaos, entirely evil, entirely devoid of compassion and kindness, devoid of love or deep reasons, they received no in-depth development pertaining to their feelings, thoughts and pasts for years and years, for at least 6 years the Ascians came across as just murderers without deep reasons, without any sympathetic reasons, etc. And for those years it actually felt like they would stay that way, always evil and chaotic, but never explained in-depth. And then Shadowbringers changed it all. I think that deep down in the hearts of many, Ascians were actually redeemed, even if they don't say so aloud; and even for those people that consider that even with Shadowbringers and Endwalker Ascians were never redeemed, most of them now like them, find them sympathethic, would even call them friends. Obviously there are exceptions, there are people who will never like them no matter what, there are people who will never consider them friends no matter what, etc. But my point is: the Ascians did not receive proper development for at least 6 long years, and then Shadowbringers changed everything to the point that now Ascians, at least some of them, are extremely beloved.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Imagine if you will that we are now in the past, we are now in the life cycle of Stormblood, so you don't know anything you would have otherwise known from Shadowbringers and Endwalker. And imagine I make this thread on here during Stormblood and I make it about Ascians, I make it about Elidibus and Lahabrea (we knew their names in Stormblood) and I make it similar to this thread about Zenos, saying that they can be redeemed, they can have deeper reasons (even without having those extra Lodestone stories on them like we do about Zenos), that they can be explored more, etc. I bet most people would react the same way they react now about Zenos. They would tell me that the Ascians have been around for years and are getting old and boring and repetitive, they would tell me that they want Rejoinings and calamities that kill millions of people therefore they are monsters and have nothing good about them. They would tell me that they cannot be redeemed, that they have no depth to them, no ulterior motives to their actions, they're just insanely evil; they would tell me that Lahabrea should not be brought back because he was crazy and evil and had no depth/no details and he did a lot of horrible stuff (including possessing Thancred's body which apparently now means rape...). They would tell me that the Ascians have been around since 2.0 and we're now in Stormblood, it's 4-5 years later and they received no development so surely that means that the writers either don't know what to do with them beyond what we have or they don't care to do anything more with them.
And yet we got Shadowbringers and Endwalker, and Ascians received A LOT of development and in-depth stories, even if it took them 6+ years to get there.
My point is that the same can be done with Zenos. People can change and grow. People can learn and better themselves. Characters can do that too.
It's fine if you don't like Zenos. It's fine if you hate him. It's fine if you want him dead forever.
Again, the main reason I even started this thread was in the hopes that someone at Square Enix would see it and tell Ishikawa about it. I do not want to argue with people. I do not want to convince people of anything. Nor am I trying to have my own mind changed.
As for you, HyoMinPark, you made your stance on Zenos perfectly clear: you want him to stay dead and you apparently dislike/hate him and are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing more can be done with him. So I see no point in continuing to engage with you past this. Your mind is made up. My mind is also made up. There is nothing you can say that will change my mind, just like I'm sure there's nothing I could say that would change your mind. So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. -
12-14-2021, 06:20 AMElysidelphiWhat do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
-
12-14-2021, 07:06 AMslaymaker1907They did put breaks in their text, just triple left click and it will select the paragraphs. It is unfortunate though that they didn't do it in a way that renders nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
-
12-14-2021, 07:14 AMAneshdaQuote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
Zitat Zitat von KitKatnip Beitrag anzeigen
I'm not convinced Zenos is dead. We killed him once and he didn't stay dead. I think he's going to come back again. Although how he's going to get back from the far end of the Universe, I have no idea.
Oh that idea I have already in my mind. Remember we woke up Elidibus and now remember who talked in the final last moment of the Credits in Elpis ... He gave him a second chance, so Zenos should be his "problem" just like Fandaniel.
That was my answer. See the Credits till the end ... who is standing in Elpis, talking that he wants to go with us to a special Place? And there you have your answers. Zenos could be brought back, by him. -
12-14-2021, 07:29 AMLoggos
If Zenos comes back he can start his redemption by paying my WoL's therapy bills because if not even dying at the edge of space rids me of his presence then my WoL's gonna spiral into a serious depression.
-
12-14-2021, 08:34 AMElysidelphiWhy do you think that Elidibus might bring Zenos back? Just curious to see your take on it, I love speculating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
In the present time, Elidibus is dead, right? So how could be bring back Zenos? And why?
As for the last cutscene at the end of the credits with Elidibus in Elpis, I took that to mean that we will have to travel in the past, meet Elidibus there (when he was still alive, in the Unsundered World) and begin the new raids with him by our side.
So how would this work, in your opinion? -
12-14-2021, 10:15 AMCrushnightI've been reading through this thread and I'll get to the last few pages in a moment but this is easily explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
Fan popularity.
Zenos was popular after 4.0 dropped heck I even loved Zenos in 4.0, Zenos however has only lost popularity since being brought back because the writing surrounding him has been sub par at best.
And if you think Zenos being brought back was all planned you really need to look at how SB patches went.
-Elidibus when he was already meant to be in Zenos's body was as tall as a midlander and not up to Varis's height which Zenos is.
-Redundant scene that makes the Ala Mhigan resistance woefully incompetent (Zenos as an Elezen flying away on a magitek mount and getting all the way to Ghimylt Dark)
- Zenos being the only being to subconsciously body jack someone, he had no intention of doing this he sliced his throat because he wanted to die, he didn't want to live so this body jacking is just wtf, oh and he conveniently masters this body jacking after never doing it before or knowing how he did it in the 1st as he takes over an imperil centurion.
It is very clear that Zenos was originally planned to be dead in 4.0 but they decided they wanted more and I can only surmise Fan popularity is what swayed that decision.
And this Zenos is the result.
Zenos would absolutely fail the simple question; Would you like to see Zenos return? A. Yes, B. No
If they were to put out a survey now because the yes people are now dealing with people who don't like his character from inception + those who didn't like what happened to Zenos since he was brought back + those that like him but felt EW was a good enough send off and don't want to risk harming his character. -
12-14-2021, 03:19 PMElysidelphi
More details on Zenos found in the story in this link (or alternatively in the FFXIV books/encyclopaedias):
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...s_the_offical/
"One might think it a blessing to be born into the ruling family of a vast and powerful empire, but for the young Prince Zenos-great grandson of Solus zos Galvus, revered founding father of the Garlean Empire-it was a curse.
From the beginning, Zenos was alone. His lady mother succumbed to illness shortly after bringing him into the world, and his lord father was seldom present, occupied as he was with his military campaigns and political maneuvering. And while the prince was surrounded by countless servants, they were as machina to him, trundling about on invisible rails, bereft of independent thought. Nor did he hold the learned men and women who served as his tutors in much higher regard. His brilliant mind found their lessons, their very existence-monotonous, and he preferred the silent company of books.
With such an upbringing, he could not choose but be different from other children. Indeed, it could be said that he was never a child at all. Innocence and playfulness were quite alien to him, the former expunged by his earliest schooling and the latter afforded no outlet. His days were uniformly joyless, and he went about his scheduled tasks with apathy. Thus did he pass his first four and ten summers-in a steel-grey blue of tedium." -
12-15-2021, 03:59 AMChained_IcarusI know I'm late to the party on this and maybe it's been addressed and you might not even be following the thread anymore but... the WoL isn't a blank insert character. They do have a personality and agency, though we do get to kind of color it a little bit. But most choices in the game are flavors of the same actual choice because the WoL does have desires of their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
The WoL is Azem. Azem as we know is a thrill seeker and risk taker. Several times the WoL has canonically done things purely for the challenge of it (like making the Ironworks people take the safety off the Omega Savage simulations, or a similar step for the Warring Triad extremes). We duel other people with outright glee (Raubahn and Venat). We dive into several side dungeons and raids simply because the thought of adventure compels us to do so. We also know from the DRK questline that the WoL is frustrated with people asking him to handle all these easy tasks fubar they feel are beneath them and wants to let loose against something without holding back.
Zenos isn't offering the PLAYER the choice to walk away. He's offering Azem the choice to walk away. And while you can choose Azem's overall reason (enjoying the challenge, duty, revenge), Azem does not choose to walk away. Azem chooses to - with no external stakes, distractions or innocents who could get hurt - go all out.
Anyway the TLDR is we often forget the WoL has a canon- though slightly fluid - personally and backstory. For RP reasons we can ignore it but it is what the MSQ pulls from and acknowledges. -
12-15-2021, 04:08 AMnighttimebunny
I wish they'd give us flashbacks into his childhood and past.
-
12-15-2021, 06:31 AMElysidelphiYeah, me too, but with Zenos being back as himself (not just his avatar or his body being used by someone else again).Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
By the way, has anyone already figured Zenos's avatar's importance? I know Yoshi-P said we should pay close attention to his avatar. Has anyone figured out why? What's special/different about his avatar? -
12-15-2021, 07:56 AMForteNightshadeThat isn't how reincarnation works. We simply embody Azem's spirit but are fundamentally a different person whose actions and personality can and does vary wildly. Have you noticed how since the introduction of that revelation, every mention of Azem has been extremely vague? That isn't a coincidental but the writers intentionally not trying to canonize character traits players may not have envisioned. A clear example of this happens in Elpis. Hermes, Amon and Fandaniel all share the same reincarnated spirit yet are all entirely different characters. Hermes wallows in the despair and belief life has no greater meaning or purpose. In fact, he's all but consumed by nihilism. Fandaniel revels in it. He's eccentric and overtly confrontation which directly contradicts Hermes who only attacks us when we provoke his beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chained_Icarus
Azem doesn't exist nor is Zenos challenging Azem as the WoL isn't them any longer but their own person. -
12-15-2021, 08:56 AMChained_IcarusIt isn't vague though. They explicitly talk about them being a thrill seeker. Hytho recounts a time Azem ran into a volcano on the verge of eruption. Venat (the previous Azem in title) talks about how a thirst for adventure and challenge is part of what that title entails. They believe you're Azem's familiar because they specifically think Azem is either busy with another adventure or because Azem is up to something. Hytho also talks about Emet going on crazy adventures with Azem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
I know the reincarnation for us / Azem is not 1:1. But look at the other shard we know of: Ardbert. He's also an adventurer who keep seeking larger challenges until he was hailed a hero.
Every single instance of Azem that we've heard of or seen is that of a thrill seeker and challenger. Our WoL constantly chooses to do the same even when not asked. Which was my original point to begin with: the WoL is a character in the story and not a blank slate self insert. We mold a lot of their outward expression but they do have set goals and motives outside of player choice. -
12-15-2021, 09:00 AMChained_IcarusHe's a unique case. Hermes had his memory wiped. Amon didn't know he was an Ascian because he was sundered until they reached back out to him. Fandaniel is him breaking down over several lifetimes after Amon. He's not like Emet or Venat in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
-
12-15-2021, 09:55 AMnighttimebunny
So I finally did the reaper job quests and I found something a little interesting. It's kind of a spoiler but it's not really that critical tbh. I think you might enjoy it.
The main quest NPC, Drusilla, almost gets killed by the main antagonist of the questline, an evil voidsent but she survives because of her avatar/its soul. He tries to kill her AGAIN and she is basically dead, laying there lifeless, but then she survives once again saying "You didn't finish the job." I think we can apply to this Zenos for sure. I'm actually baffled about how powerful he is (nearly a full on Ascian, reaper with a voidsent which apparently can make reapers almost immortal, can turn into Shinryu lol) that at this point I'm extremely skeptical he's dead. With him being in that realm of hope, if/when he wakes up, maybe he'll wish to be back home? Like he wished the WoL back to the Scions. Then we get our long awaited redemption arc. <3
Also when you talk to Drusilla about reapers, she seems to know a lot about the Thirteenth shard. And mentions souls (forgot what she said exactly) I'm almost 100% sure Zenos's avatar is Azem's shard on the Thirteenth. -
12-15-2021, 10:22 AMElysidelphiWow, thank you for this information! I really really must do the Reaper questline as well now. People keep telling me how great it is and I kept putting it off but now I really want to do it for myself and analyse each and every word, scene, gesture, facial expression, tone of voice, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
Thank you also for keeping my hope alive and for contributing to this thread, your replies often make me smile and I felt like saying I love you to you and giving you a huge hug in this explosion of affection because you manage to give me so much hope, and that means so much to me, more than these words could ever convey.
Since the Thirteenth Shard keeps being mentioned here and there, I get the feeling that it will definitely come to play a big role in the future. That would be so interesting! We already restored one shard that was overwhelmed by Light, so it would make thematic sense to also restore a shard overwhelmed by Darkness.
However, I must ask you, why are you almost 100% sure that Zenos's avatar is Azem's shard from the Thirteenth? That theory left me shocked and I really want to know more about it, even if it's just speculation. But since you seem so sure, I definitely, definitely want to know more!
Wait wait...actually...wouldn't that be really bad though? If Zenos's avatar was Azem's shard from the Thirteenth? I mean...if that was true...would that mean that us the WoL will have to merge with Zenos's avatar at some point (the same way we did with Ardbert) meaning that Zenos would be left without an avatar? What happens to a Reaper if they lose their avatar? Can they get another one? Has the Reaper questline addressed that?
Or could Zenos change back to Samurai, if he lost his avatar? Or even change to another job/new job?
What are your thoughts on these things?
Also, on a similar note, you do not think that Unukalhai is actually Azem from the Thirteenth and that he might merge with us at some point? His story is also not wrapped up and there are also many questions left unanswered about him too. So I think there are definitely plans about his character as well. -
12-15-2021, 10:43 AMForteNightshadeDescribing someone as a "thrill seeker" is the very definition of vague. In fact, they literally use it whenever referencing random adventurers. Such a description would easily fit Alise, Estinien, Thancred and even Alphinaud to varying degrees. A several points the story posits how adventurers seek challenges. Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch sense your soul and its familiarity. It has nothing to do with your personality or because "Azem is up to something."Quote:
Originally Posted by Chained_Icarus
You mean Ardbert who was an ordinary adventurer who simply decided to put together a ragtag group? The same Ardbert who failed as a hero, unwittingly caused the Flood of Light to engulf most of the known world and who was coerced by Elidibus into sacrificing his body to cross over into the Source and kill us? Not exactly characteristics of a thrill seeker or altruistic adventurer the likes of which Azem is purported to be. If anything, Ardbert further illustrate how fundamentally different each reincarnated soul can be.
Except Yoshida has said himself they keep the WoL relatively vague to allow a self-insert of sorts. Naturally, the WoL is on rails because without doing so they cannot tell a cohesive story, but the character is written to be a self-insert.
This is downright hypocritical. You can't argue we're the embodiment of Azem and all their characteristics only to claim Hermes is unique when he doesn't suit your argument. Furthermore, we also weren't aware of being sundered until post-Shadowbringers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chained_Icarus
-
12-15-2021, 10:56 AMElysidelphi
I will repost this here because I think it's relevant and important overall and it applies to many plot lines, places, and characters, including obviously to Zenos:
Endwalker mainly ended the Hydaelyn-Zodiark saga, everything else, even the Ancients, were left open, to possibly be brought back. Hell, there's even speculation than even Zodiark might be brought back/or his aether might affect things in the future/distant future. Zenos himself wasn't tied with Hydaelyn/Zodiark and didn't care about them and if their stories are done forever, that doesn't mean his story is done forever, especially since there are so many questions left unanswered about him and he still has potential for a lot more as a character, he isn't fully developed.
Furthermore, there was an interview with Yoshi-P saying that he loved to read mystery/thriller/detective novels where the writer slowly feeds the reader clues and hints along the way only for things to be revealed at the end of the book; Yoshi-P was saying that he loved trying to put the pieces together while reading the book, he loved trying to figure things out; and if he didn't figure things out by the time they were all revealed at the end, he would actually go back and read the book again, focusing on the clues/details/hints, he's that passionate about mysteries and things being revealed slowly. And he said that he tried to do the same with FFXIV, to reveal things slowly and feed the players hints and clues along the way. And if you're into lore and care about details, you will notice that the writing team has done that over the years: they have been sprinkling hints and clues along the way, with many of them coming to a conclusion or revelation years later. For example, the Ascians, Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been around since 2.0., since A Realm Reborn. And we were given clues and hints about them for all these years. It took them 8-10 years to reveal the truth about Ascians/Ancients (about Emet-Selch, Elidibus) and about Zodiark and Hyadelyn. That's why I hope that they are doing the same with Zenos and he will be back; because they fed us many hints/clues about him but also left many unanswered questions about him. Since Yoshi-P loves mystery novels and putting the puzzle pieces together, I don't think he will leave too many questions answered, not just about Zenos but about Silvertear and many other characters, places, plot lines, etc. But I think it will be done slowly, building it up, as they have already done with the Ascians and Zodiark/Hyadaelyn.
This video is interesting and relevant to what I've said and to my line of thinking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-iKZKOa6Hc (Yoshi-P's Keeping A Secret From Us...by Bellular Gaming)
"In some ways, these mysteries are more like puzzles than stories. Mystery authors have to squeeze in all sorts of clues for the reader... while also keeping them subtle enough that they won't be noticed." ~ Yoshi-P
"So it's much more fun to read them as puzzles to be solved rather than regular novels." ~ Yoshi-P
"He says his style of reading is very, very slow. Clues can come in dialogue, exposition, or even just simple scene descriptions."
"So you can't overlook a single word. Thus, it is important to not rush through the book." ~ Yoshi-P
"If a scene feels off, like it doesn't make sense, or not all the information adds up, then that might be a clue." -
12-15-2021, 11:21 AMnighttimebunny
I don't know too much about Unukalhai but I'd love to know more about him. I really think we might be exploring the Thirteenth Shard soon especially with having reaper introduced. Maybe Zenos can help us :,) That actually sounds plausible!
As for his avatar, it really is kind of tinfoil since we have almost no information. I guess when Yoshi P said something like "pay attention to his avatar, it might be his new best friend" something along those lines, I immediately thought of Azem. I feel like the connection between us and him is so strong that it would make sense. I have no other theories for what his avatar could be at the moment, what do you think it could be?
They did not address it, but I'm pretty they could get a new avatar easily, since the voidsent soul is separate from the host's. They just act as a barrier of protection. So I think Zenos would be fine if we did end up merging with the shard. I really recommend trying reaper! It's fun being the same class as him :) and the quests were definitely interesting.
Also, thank you for this whole thread!! It's made me super happy, so hugs to you! -
12-15-2021, 12:04 PMElysidelphiYou should definitely explore Unukalhai's story, it's tied to the Thirteenth shard. If you do the trials from Heavensward, they explore his story a lot. If I remember correctly, even the Eden raids from Shadowbringers explore him a bit. I won't go into details because I don't want to spoil you, hope you'll enjoy his story!Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
Hmm, good point... I guess that Zenos's avatar could indeed be Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth based on what Yoshi-P said. That would be interesting to explore how Zenos ended up changing to Reaper and finding that particular avatar out of all the other options out there and how he got that avatar in particular to work with him...So much potential for storytelling there! Do avatars talk to their masters? Like do they have an actual relationship beyond the battlefield? In which they talk and such?
But other than that, I was wondering, does the way Zenos's avatar look or its attacks/abilities offer us any clues/hints as to whom it might be?
Personally, I'd be worried if Zenos's avatar was indeed Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth just because I'd worry that we the WoL would end up merging with it at some point and I'd worry about how that would affect Zenos, as in, I wouldn't want to kill him yet again. Never again! But you said that the voidsent soul is separate from the host's making Zenos safe, so I hope that's true. But then again, this leads to another question I have...
So...Reapers are apparently almost immortal due to their job as a Reaper but also due to their avatars, right? Their avatars do not let them die, is that right? Like in the Reaper questline, when Drusilla was almost dead the second time around, what kept her alive or saved her? Her avatar or something else? Was that explained in the questline?
Because my question is the following: if Reapers cannot be killed "normally" because their avatars will keep them alive, does that work the other way around as well? As in, if the avatar gets killed/absorbed/merged with, would that kill the Reaper/host?
I think it would be pretty interesting if Zenos's avatar turned out to be Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth, but like I said, it would also worry me a lot, and I'd only want this turn of events if either:
1. we don't kill/merge with that avatar at all, ever
or
2. we do kill/merge with that avatar but Zenos remains alive and either gets a new avatar or changes jobs
Other than that...maybe Zenos's avatar is his own soul shard from the Thirteenth. Or maybe it's the soul shard of one of the sundered Ascians, such as Hermes/Fandaniel or really any other sundered Ascian and we would get to explore the story of that Ascian as well. Or it could also be the soul shard of the emperor Xande, given his importance in the story. Or it could be the sundered part of Zodiark himself! Or even of Hydaelyn herself. Or it could be the soul shard of one of the Scions/friends of the WoL. Other options for that avatar's identity could be the soul shard of either Haurchefant or Minfilia, as either would hit pretty hard emotionally. Or obviously it could be the soul shard of an entirely new character that will get explored in future expansions/patches. So many possibilities. Whoever that avatar is, I hope it will have a powerful, deep impact.
I'm really glad you've been enjoying this thread, I'm always happy to meet other people who like/understand/want more of Zenos and don't just simply reject him as useless/boring. I adore people who can read between the lines and analyse things in-depth, especially those who are happy to give a villain a second (proper) chance. -
12-15-2021, 12:58 PMnighttimebunny
I never want to kill him again either, I don't think they'd make us a third time :P I noticed that his avatar covers both its eyes with a different set of hands. I wonder why? Whose hands are those and why does it have to hide its eyes?
I also found this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fxii_crackpot/ I don't know much about Occuria but it's really interesting that they have some similarities in appearance
Other than Zenos being a reaper, he is basically an Ascian, right? He can see soul colors, body swap, survived suicide. Elidibus was too scared to fight him, why? And since we can only kill an Ascian by trapping them in and blasting them with aether, is it safe to say he's alive? The only issue is how exactly he will come back to earth. Does he want to? Where else would he go? And maybe we could see him there?
I love finding little clues and trying to put them together!