"And at level 82, SCH/WHM/AST get NEW spells in the form of Broil IV/Glare III/Fall Malefic." - Every youtuber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon1o6
No they don't- Those aren't new spells, what are you talking about.
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11-02-2021, 10:43 PMGrimGale
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11-03-2021, 05:09 AMDeceptusBroil's case:Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
They nerf Broil 3 from 290 Potency to 255, only to make Broil 4 295 potency.
Yes I know that they changed formula values but this is just simply sh!tty optics. -
11-03-2021, 05:44 AMJadkayI was going to write something similar. I don't count how many times I'm with a co-healer spamming dps skill while a few people under 50% hp and/or there are dead people and I'm under 3k mp because I'm trying to heal and raize people alone. The DPS skill doesn't keep healers from healing, just some people who play healer role to probably fill faster and don't care at all for the party because there is an other healer in the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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11-03-2021, 07:16 AMlisaaI already play the "correct" way, do I have to feel the "correct" way too? I'm not just some number on some ranking sheet, I have my own thoughts, feelings, opinions too. Optimizing my damage while keeping everyone alive is really stressful for me. I just want comfy easy gameplay as a healerQuote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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11-03-2021, 07:40 AMMellowMinkWith all due respect, you shouldn't play Savage raids then. Are you expecting a synced Savage raid to be "easy" when the point of it is to provide a high-difficulty challenge?Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
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11-03-2021, 07:43 AMAnhra
I've been thinking on Healers in FFXIV for a while now and what i find truly interesting, is the fact that Squeenix designs them exactly in the opposite way how theyre suppoest to work in a MMORPG, allow me to elaborate:
Healers have in their current state, roughly 10-12 Healing abilities (Buffs and Spells that influence potencies not included) and about 5 Dps Spells.
Don't you guys think that Healers would be far more interesting to play if those numbers would be switched? I dont mean it in a 1:1 kind of way, but roughly.
You dont need over 10 Buttons which all serve for Healing a HP bar back to full, having only a handful of them with Buffs and ways to influence those few existing ones, even with Dps Skills, is at least in my Book, far more interesting and fun. -
11-03-2021, 09:04 AMGrimGaleDo not bite. That person is perfectly capable of excelling at savage. It's been established before.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
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11-03-2021, 12:21 PMNobleWinterSo is the current gameplay comfy? Is this where you would like things to stay or is this what you would consider stressful?Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
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11-03-2021, 08:08 PMDrkdays
I'm all for challenging combat, myself, but healers are supposed to struggle in solo content and only be of moderate assistance in damaging a boss. Otherwise there would be no appeal to playing a DPS class. It's lore correct that way; the bread and milk that formed group gaming as we know it today, and my fear is that players (well-known for their this-is-never-enough attitude towards any and all classes) will continue to drive towards the same sort of changes that made WoW's dungeons and raiding so terribly hectic and strange, which is why I'm glad that SE has put their foot down and so NO to yet more damage or more distracting combos.
Because they seem to understand that for those asking it'll never be enough. This reminds me of early tanking in the game, way back when they gave players attribute points to use and the option of equipping accessories of the players choice and any tank that didn't assign every last bit of strength that they could to their character, even at the cost of mitigation, was considered an idiot. I can see healers suffering the same fate, if in a different way, where it has become all about optimizing DPS over heals, because it's never enough and NEVER WILL BE ENOUGH.
The only acceptable change I could get behind is some other form of entertainment available during the supposedly loathed downtime, but not MORE damage and certainly nothing that will pull attention from healing because healers are coerced into feeling that if they can't squeeze out a full combo then they must be a failure at healing; a mentality that is sure to arise from any sort of combo that effects damage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but WHM at least has five abilities at lv 80 that do direct damage and 10 (11 if you count asylum) that do direct healing. Despite people's complaints about healers being stuck with the 11111 damage rotation, WHM already has half as many damaging abilities as it does direct healing. Sure, you're gonna use glare the most, especially at lower levels, but there's a darn good reason the game doesn't want healers committing to combos.
That's why I will never be convinced that healers should get more in the area of DPS, because I KNOW that however hard and desperately players cry for a bit more, something, anything, from SE to make healers more fun to do things other than heal with, it won't be enough. And worse, if SE finally caves and for some reason gives the DPHealers more sparklies to fling at bosses and trash players will promptly rejoice and sigh saying, "It's about time. They DO listen"
and then
say
"Well, actually. This could use a buff, it's still not enough. It's still pretty weak. This combo is pretty short. I STILL have wasted downtime. Can we get better DoTs? What about more CC?"
Because, for players, it's never going to be enough. DPS abilities are like crack for players. One taste and they gotta have more, and better, and more.
*Dave Chappelle at the window* "Ya'll got any more of them DPS abilities?" -
11-03-2021, 08:52 PMGrimGaleQuote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
"They will inevitably optimize Dps over healing."
How do you optimize healing over Dps? Is it making sure you cast more healing? You fit more healing spells? You make sure you get the most out of healing spells, minimizing overhealing? You ensure you use exactly the right healing spell at exactly the right moment?
What do you think the natural consequences of optimizing healing are?
You guessed it, free time. Turns out "healing as little as possible" and "not wasting any healing" are in practice, the same thing.
What should a healer with free time do in your view?
"Any DPS abilities will never be enough."
Did healers ever complain they had "not enough healing downtime buttons" back in Stormblood?
There is no DPS downtime. Damage is always usefull. The game has been designed around this fact.We had more dps abilities before, our dowtime was more varied and equally as prevalent. Removing our dps kits hasn't fixed any of the so called tunnel visioning or made healers "heal more".
Also, not sure why you go about "combos", 1-2-3 is barely more interesting that 1-1-1.
We don't want to deal more damage numerically, just have more skill variety during dowtime.
We asked for more "interesting" healing downtime, seeing how prevalent it becomes the moment a healer gets some gear and experience. It only gets more prevalent, not less.
As to healer's obsession with DPS, blame game design. There is no other useful avenue for contribution when healing is not needed. (And healing is not needed when the incomming damage isn't enough to kill a player, so you can imagine that happens a lot.)
Again, healers want to feel useful all the time. Like any DPS player or Tank, we want to feel like we're constantly contributing. -
11-03-2021, 09:20 PMIrenia
We would heal more if, after keeping everyone alive, healing ended encounters quicker.
Wiping in a fight is terrible; wastes so much time of the clock. It feels so good to save a catastrophic run because that is a possible wipe avoided.
Dead players stop contributing to the fight, and this waste time. Even when they mess up, I will heal them, as long as they are trying - since that effort generally is rewarded.
Besides that, healing can't really affect the fight. Damage spells do, but the ones we have are boring. Alas, since we want to be useful, we press them out of obligation.
The drive to keep everyone alive and the drive to do DPS come from the same source, at the end of the day. DPS is not king. The clock is. -
11-03-2021, 10:58 PMSebazyI'm curious about how you feel that this is lore correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
From the angle of in game lore, the White Mages of Amdapor went toe to toe with and beat the Black Mages of Mhach, the fall out from which was destructive enough to cause the fifth umbral calamity.
It's not even much of a Final Fantasy trope. Healing focused roles in classic FF games have historically done just fine on the offence, usually being defensively frail rather than offensively inept. FFXI is a notable exception but then the same can be said of just about any job that isn't the right job for the situation, it just kind of ran away in it's own direction with Nin tanks leading the charge.
As for other MMOs. Claiming that this is somehow 'the bread and milk that formed group gaming as we know it today' is just laughably misinformed. Have you ever watched an Everquest Druid soloing drakes in Cobalt scar? 4 at a time btw.... If you looked down below the cliffs, you'd see a Shaman killing a raid boss called Kelorek Dar. Solo.... The irony is that if you actually go back to the game that stamped the MMO trinity that we have today, tanks and pure melees were the helpless ones that needed ferrying around, not healers ;)
So where does this come from? It feels like you're just taking the word 'healer' literally and assuming that the job should have no other facets or depth to it beyond that?
What? At what point are you referring to? Nobody really understood the game in any real depth in ARR. Coil DPS checks were rare and mostly lenient. The only people who I ever saw get called out were those that genuinely did stupid things like melding or pointing a stat that they genuinely couldn't get any value from. If you're referring to HW with Gordias and to a lesser extent, Midas I can appreciate your point more. Gordias was a *HUGE* shock in terms of the DPS it expected from players, especially after Final Coil. People who were stepping into Savage needed every bit of DPS that they could get their hands on, healers included. ThordanEX was a bit of a wrecking ball as well, so yeah, I can well see this spike in damage requirements filtering down out of the raid scene in the same way that the whole 'Exclude WHM' thing ballooned way out of control in patch 3.5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
Hamstringing an entire role just because certain aspects of the player base are idiots isn't a particularly sound design choice for the long term.
Again, this is why I keep preaching that SE should take AST's buff system much further. Let them spend GCDs on cards and balance it from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
It's not the number of abilities that's the problem here, it's the fact that we press 1 of them routinely 200+ times in a single fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
I'd be saying exactly the same thing if we were pressing Cure 1 as frequently.
God forbid we expect SE to actually improve our little corner of the game. God f**king forbid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
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11-03-2021, 11:07 PMLiam_HarperNo one's buying that. I'm not a great player but I understand enough about raid optimization to know you don't achieve an overall world top 50 for an entire tier and decide to do hundreds of Savage boss kills + TEA prog if you hate it and it stresses you. At your level, you could probably play with one hand while watching Netflix and still perform more than well enough for any Savage boss. You obviously chose to push your gameplay and optimization that far.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
Pulling the "I have feelings" card to validate your trolling is fairly smart, because it makes it look like we're attacking you and your opinions, but I'm sorry, your troll is unraveled. You're bored waiting for the next expansion and raid tier and came to rile up the forums for some kicks, sure. You had your fun, you didn't block fflogs fast enough and got caught, move on. -
11-03-2021, 11:13 PMJadkayTo me, it's not the same thing :Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
Healing as less as possible can be done by any healer, because they have the choice to not healing at all as some people already doing in that game. As I stated before, because there are 2 healers in 8man content, some players decided to play healer to fill faster in queue, PF or whatever and just spamming 1 dot + 1 dps skill 99% of the time.
Optimising healing is paying attention to not overhealing, so you doesn't waste your mp for nothing but still have the priority to keep your party alive. DPS class doesn't really have issue with their mp but healers do.
In FF14, there are 3 things making people being wrong about what the healer role is :- numbers, that a lot of people care more than anything else even more than 'clear content' on some DC and by extension the website know by everyone because they just want to be #1 (and that pretty much being idiot because we all know the theory for healers to be top tiers numbers : almost not healing at all and letting the co-healer doing most of the job, so WHY playing healer in that case ?)
- giving too many utilities skills to job that doesn't mean to be a support job
- players who think that they need more dmg from the SUPPORT JOB to clear a content who lead to a paradoxe : why do you think you need healers dps to clear a content while they can only use 1 dot, 1 single target and 1 aoe skill ? (im not talking about those extra dps skill some healers have such as ED). Imo, if the game was meant to need the dps from EVERY JOB existing in it, they would all have big dps kit, no ?
Having 1 dot, 1 single target and 1 aoe skill dps on healers is meant to be able to do quest alone and fill the downtime when you don't need to heal your party but not to be a part of the dps job. I remember the time when we was just asking a healer to heal and people was happy to get a healer who was able to heal and simply help at dps the rest of the time. Now, I feel people want the healer to DPS as much as possible or they doesn't want it in party.
Ofc, this is my personnal opinion and I already know some people will eventually flame me for that. -
11-03-2021, 11:51 PMGrimGaleNot sure I understand what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
"Healing as less as possible can be done by any healer, because they have the choice to not healing at all."
Healing as little as possible means you keep your party alive and none of your healing is wasted. If someone dies, you haven't "healed as little as possible". Minimizing healing has the direct consequence of causing very little overhealing. Meaning your MP is not wasted. Your GCDs are not wasted.
There is a minimum amount of healing in any content: The unavoidable damage that would kill a player. Those healing requirements can go up the more player makes mistakes. Devs have designed 8 man content to require 2 healers in most of the cases. The fact that some healers decide to heal as less as possible and just DPS while their partner focuses on healing and still clear the content is NOT an argument against healer DPS, if anything, it makes evident that there is not enough incoming damage to warrant a second healer.
If anything having healers have so much downtime means the tuning of incomming damage is at fault. It's a design problem from the devs: The fault is not with healers who focus on DPS.
If there is an expectation for healers to DPS it's because game design accomodates such expectation- In any MMO, wether healing dowtime is prevalent or not, if you can chose between a Healer that can keep the party alive, and a Healer that can keep the party alive AND deal damage or contrubute to clear the content in any other way (CC, Buffs, Debuffs) you will always chose the one that can do both.
Throwing "But some healers let their party die to dps" at this argument doesn't work. Because those healers ARE NOT keeping their party alive. We agree that the bare minimum for the role of a healer is to heal their team.
You will clear a fight wether your party members stay at 50% HP during all the fight or 100% HP. Heck, the only HP that matters is the last one. When a healer player becomes more experienced, they can push the limits of their job in their content to make sure they maximize their contribution. As there is nothing else to maximize their contribution to the team beyond DPS that's what they focus on. -
11-04-2021, 12:28 AMJadkayThats my point, if there is not incoming damage enough for a second healer, why playing healer ? Just make a 2T 1H & 5DPS party. The basic of the game is 2H but the game do not force you to do so. You can even go 8DPS if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
And again, I will write the same, some healers players (me included) like to push to the limits, but the players is forcing all healers playing that way while the game doesn't meant to do it. And the simple fact that the new prohibited things they posted recently prove it : you can't force people playing the way you want but only suggest them. If some players want pro DPS healers, they need to make their own team and stop blaming healers in pf for the lack of DPS and the healer coming in pf for mainly DPSing and not doing their job purpose should also make their own team because that ruin the game experience of some others players.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
So, in fact, the problem is not from the game design, but from the players who do not respect others because of the 'udonotpaymysub' meme. -
11-04-2021, 12:38 AMSani2341Would you mind showing me the DF setting that allows me to solo heal for my daily roulettes? because I am ususally forced to play with a second healer by the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
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11-04-2021, 12:41 AMGrimGaleDoesn't change the fact that your DF dungeons for example still require a healer to queue. Glarebroil spam doesn't only happen in 8 mans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
Players cannot force Healers to focus on DPS, what are you talking about. They can chose not to play with you at worst. Just like if you're a bad DPS they can chose not to play with you, or if you're a bad Tank that doesn't take aggro.
Does that mean the devs should design ALL the Jobs to be stale? It's clear having less buttons doesn't make healers heal more. It only makes people that could juggle healing and DPS bored out of their minds!
If your issue is player behavior, you have now more than ever the tools to cull that behaviour. What the does that have to do with class design? The fact that DPS buttons exist doesn't mean you have to use them on a healer. Player expectation might be there but as you said your role is healer. The bare minimum is keeping people alive.
You can blame rudeness but you can't blame players for expecting more than the bare minimum! -
11-04-2021, 12:42 AMVeolEWhoa there partner, I think your reading comprehension is terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
The healer mains are asking for a couple of simple solution, like literally.
"Asking said content to do more damage in general." so they can use their new healer tools, but they can't even get that option because the devs think it'll be too hard or stressful for the casual players..... like why....
And you can't be serious when you think the healers are "ASKING FOR MORE DAMAGE" lol no dude, they asking for more DPS OPTION! And you can't lie that spamming 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 is soooo boring. Hell, I dont even MAIN healer and I can feel their pain. Like an extra 1 or 2 dps buttons won't hurt at all. Like seriously
( I wish they bring back Miasma and bane for SCH. And Aero 3 for WHM...)
Since you're a DRK main like me...... your job stone.... hand it over my friend. -
11-04-2021, 12:57 AMSebazyNot an option for DF content generally. Plenty of people do oddball group comps with statics and at best you'll sometimes see Primal farms and such pop up as solo heal. But that is the exception to the rule with many fights having healer specific mechanics that make a solo heal run problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
The only thing getting pushed to the limits in casual content is the paint on my Glare key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
Put the DPS thing aside for just a moment. This isn't about healers specifically wanting to sit there DPSing. It's about healers having some kind of involving gameplay in often multiple minutes we see between anything happening that affects us in the slightest in all levels of content. I suspect most of the people that are angry over this would be happy with just about anything that doesn't involve pressing the same button potentially 200+ times in a single fight.
Answer me this: Picture the scene.... You queue up for 24 man, you get a WHM co healer who maintains Medica II and blasts Cure IIs at anyone who gets so much as a scratch. They are overhealing everything which is absolutely fine, no issues there. Tell me, what do you do when you get a co-healer like this in a 24 man dungeon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
Have you ever considered that the comically low expectations and demands on the healers in most content is perhaps the very reason we see so many borderline afk healers that are content to just auto follow and mash a singlular button? No other role can get away with that so readily in 8/24 man content. There is literally zero difficulty curve to end game healing until you hit Extremes and Savage. Casual full party content can be reliably 'cleared' and 'beaten' whilst face down for the entirety of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
It's absolutely a design problem. People's bad attitudes are a result of the design that encourages and rewards such a terrible standard of play. -
11-04-2021, 01:00 AMGrimGaleYou know, I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. You're doing a much better job at explaining the issue and countering arguments. And I am getting really tired of replying to the same arguments over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I just don't want you to feel like you're alone on this subject by not replying anymore. -
11-04-2021, 01:02 AMJadkayUh ? Don't think you understand anything in my answer. The game is not forcing you to play a specific job. My point was to show than if you are not going to do your job role, don't play that role. If you queue as healer in 8man daily roulette, you are supposed to heal. If you don't want to heal and still play healer, make a 8man party with your setup and queue for your daily, so you don't ruin others players experience by not healing and letting them die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sani2341
Same as above. And I do blame players for forcing healers maximise their DPS. It's not the same as asking a healer to DPS when the party doesnt need healing. There is a difference between playing a role as intended and optimising anything with your party. To optimise something where it requiere 8 players to work together, all those 8 players need to be agree and playing together with that idea of optimisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
I'm sorry if I'm not enough clear but english is not my native language.
Irrevelant as he is doing his job so I'm jsut doing mine : heal also and if there is nothing to heal I use my 1 dps button because I dislike to stand doing nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Who is forcing people to play a job they find boring ? Play something else or change game ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Anyway I'm going to drop from that thread because, as I stated, this is my OWN and PERSONNAL opinion of the game and most of people just wanna prove and force me to agree with them lol. Like I never tell you can't go 1H in 8man or don't heal even if you play healer. I just stated than you don't have to force people accepting it and so making your own team with people that are agree so you doesn't ruin the experience of players who play the game in a 'more normal way'. -
11-04-2021, 01:10 AMSani2341This, so much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
While more DPS variety is the 'easy' solution to the issue, especially as we had them before (miasma, aero 3, ...), anything that would bring any variety to the GCDs when no healing is necessary would be great.
Which is why I was so excited for when I first learned abotu Toxicon, gettign rewarded for basicly keeping up gcd shieldign sounded liek an interesting approach to this. (Granted then I learned about the numbers, and imho, the implementation leaves a lot to be desired with the media tour build)
More stuff like that, imho, would be just as welcome, if not more so if it manages to reward the use of GCD Heals. It is just much easier to go 'give us back what we had' over coming up with, proposing and clearly communicating a new type of downtime busy work.
EDIT:
How do you go from 'please forgo searching another healer to group with me DF so I can Heal more' to 'I don't want to heal'? Because ime, there ususaly is not enough damage for two competent healers in normal mode content. Esp. if one of the two spams medica 2 the moment the tank goes to 99% HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
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11-04-2021, 01:10 AMSemirhage
*circus music*
Here we go again with the same list of arguments from the last six years...they never change, and they never evolve.
"Healers should HEAL ONLY!" "Okay you can do a little damage but only rarely during your downtime!" "Healing should be your top priority! If you're casting Holy and the party has less than full HP you're not queuing as a REAL HEALER!" "Pressing Glare 200 times a fight isn't a natural consequence of easy content and a terrible damage kit, it's the community forcing everyone to do it!"
Me. Pagalth'an. "Expert" roulette. One healer. Zero casts of GCD healing spells outside lilies. Glare and Holy collectively cast many, many, many times more than healing abilities. Is not a consequence. Of the community "forcing" me. To maximize my DPS. It's a consequence of how easy most of this game's content is. And how terribly, wretchedly stupid my downtime kit is. -
11-04-2021, 01:12 AMGrimGaleFair enough, you blame players for forcing healers to maximise their DPS. Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
What does that have to do with Job design and healers have more than a couple of buttons to DPS? Are you gonna use the fact that SOME players force healers to maximise their DPS as a design axiom to make ALL healers suffer from said design? Are you going to apply that logic to DPS that don't do acceptable DPS?
Oh, some DPS players can barely push dps, better reduce their classes to a 1 button mash- That way they can't possibly mess up.
Again, nobody complained back in Stormblood about healers having too many buttons to use for DPS. The complaints relating to healers were regarding balance between each Job. You had people complaining about healers tunnel-visioning both in SB and now, so you can see how little removing DPS actions has served to fix the problem.
I will admit, healer DPS kit could have used some streamlining, especially since they wanted to add new actions. But they over did it. -
11-04-2021, 01:16 AMSebazySo DPS checks in Gordias and onwards that *REQUIRE* healer DPS to clear the fight had nothing to do with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
Go watch some ARR progression videos, at best you'll see healers maintaining dots in most fights. Why? Because healers were resource starved and DPS checks were far and few between, generally only being short pushes at very specific phases. It's not the communities fault we're in the situation. SE set the bar with Gordias Savage and they've kept it close to that ever since even if it's not quite as extreme (E8S for example).
Bai =(Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadkay
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11-04-2021, 02:13 AMFoxCh40s
The same arguements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
So tired of it. We seriously had this squashed in Stormblood, FINALLY, and then the Devs go an reignite this arguement all over again. It's going to take ANOTHER 6 years to squash this arguement.
Frankly, I'm done with it. If SE wants to not listen to the Veteran's. Then so be it, it's not our game, it's not our choice, not our resources, not our vision, and not our money. -
11-04-2021, 02:22 AMMellowMinkThey can't be surprised if the queues for healer players take longer than wanted then.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxCh40s
It's pretty upsetting to be regularly ignored, such as with higher-up designers saying that they weren't sure what else to do with Scholar despite having dozens of pages of specific feedback and constructively worded suggestions across the official forums; I hope the indication isn't that they just outright avoid reading one of the few avenues for direct communications that they provide. -
11-04-2021, 02:40 AMinhaledcornIf they're at a loss on what to give SCH because the job is too limited in the scope of its design, then the job needs a new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
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11-04-2021, 03:48 AMFoxCh40sExcept they can't even be bothered with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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11-04-2021, 04:04 AMinhaledcorn... Why you gotta cut me deep like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxCh40s
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11-04-2021, 04:45 AMDeceptusIf the FFXIV Devs simply changed the role name from Healer to "Support" a lot of these counter arguments would lose a LOT of steam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-04-2021, 04:54 AMinhaledcornHonestly, you're not wrong. Healers do feel more like Support Classes/Jobs in this game, especially now. Ranged DPS were more support at the start, but now that they've shifted to more of a focus on the DPS, healers feel more support oriented, especially with the upcoming changes to our main DPS spell allowing weave windows. Sure, a lot of their support is healing, but good healers are expected to do DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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11-04-2021, 05:08 AMSebazyAbsolutely, maybe it's a translation thing. I'm not really sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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11-04-2021, 06:00 AMForteNightshadeI can only assume you're referring to the STR accessory era and old tank stance. In which case, there was virtually never a reason not to always use STR accessory and be in DPS stance 99% of the time because the game failed to incentivize anything else. This is the point you continuously seem to gloss over or outright ignore. Players aren't making these decisions on a whim but in response to lackluster gameplay design. Tanks rarely focused on their defensive attributes due to content never rewarding them for that decision. Likewise, Healers are asking for additional DPS tools because the devs refuse to emphasize healing. Practically every skill they've shown off will be mostly EX or Savage exclusive in practical use; being comically overpowered in everything else. It's why abilities like Temperance and Neural Sect didn't "wow" most players. They're barely used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
Your insistence players will never be satisfied is little more than a slippery slope fallacy. "Let's keep a depressingly boring design because maybe, possibly, somehow adding two more DPS buttons will send the playerbase into a frenzy!!" They managed in Heavensward. -
11-04-2021, 09:18 AMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
It would likely bring its own, new slew of complaints, though (even if still for the better), probably involving just how limited and indistinct/homogeneous our span of 'support' is in its practice/playflow (especially when compared against your successful Mobas or Hero-Shooters).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-04-2021, 09:54 AMinhaledcornThat's not... untrue... But maybe a name shift may shift the focus of how healers are currently being designed but still make them attractive for players. Right now, I know there are people who like playing support. If they're refocused as support jobs, not just in healing but in buffs and debuffs, there may be players that are more interested in these roles and provide more feedback. Right now, healer population is low, and even fewer who are good at it. The healer population is of two minds (healers only exist to heal vs healers need to provide things other than healing), so if we can get the two sides to agree on what healers are supposed to do, maybe we can give the sort of feedback the devs need to know to make more engaging gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-04-2021, 11:26 AMPunslingerTell me you don't play WHM without saying, "I don't play WHM."Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
WHM doesn't get Glare until L72. Until then, it's Stone. Of the "five" abilities that do direct damage, one is an AoE (Holy) and thus useless in single-target fights, one is DPS-neutral because it requires you to burn two GCDs on lily heals first (Afflatus Misery), and one is an oGCD you just mindlessly mash on-cooldown for the DPS (Assize). This leaves you filling your GCDs with 211111111 spam.
Tell me you never played during ARR without saying, "I never played during ARR."Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
Healers had more DPS tools back during ARR. Guess what? They were not, in fact, asking for more. SCH and WHM both had multiple DoTs to manage. Cleric Stance made DPS require some actual thought, instead of just mindlessly mashing Stone whenever you weren't doing anything else. The lack of oGCD bloat meant that healers had far fewer GCDs available for DPS, because they had to lean harder on their GCD heals. So there was less downtime, and what downtime existed was more engaging, because it consisted of more than 211111111 spam.
And healers were happy, and content got cleared, and all those lil' baby noobs that you Sylphies are supposedly so concerned about were able to pick up healing just fine. Your unfounded catastrophizing ignores the actual history of healing early on in this game.
Sincerely, someone who mained SCH during ARR. -
11-04-2021, 01:22 PMShurrikhanOh, for sure. I just doubt anyone could successfully sell the rename as, say, a means of avoiding criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
It'd just shift us towards new (and, I suspect, more constructive and lucrative) criticism. -
11-05-2021, 06:30 AMHappyHubrisI mean, what support? Besides healing skills and DPS skills, we get...rez and a damage reduction cooldown or two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus