Worthless Live Letter

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Originally Posted by Videra

Realize that a big part of healer fun used to be managing cleric stance, cooldowns, debuffs and buffs, while having less OGCD heals.

Realize that healers also had a suite of DPS nukes in 3.X which you used based on available MP, and multiple dots to keep you paying attention during fights.

Realize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

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They probably assume people just want a 123 combo because DPS and Tanks don't get much more complex than that anymore. If even DPS were stripped down, why would healers be any different?
This is the abhorrent direction they decided to go with job mechanics in XIV since ShB.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

It's bad enough that healers are expected to heal as little as possible in order to pump out as much damage as possible.

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We've been over this in the healer forums time and time again and people still parrot the same line...

You are not expected to heal as little as possible, you're expected not to waste your time overhealing and push useful buttons instead. It's really not that much to ask, yet people are constantly whining about being expected to contribute to the team.

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

"Don't play a healer if you don't want to be bored"
"Oh the queue is too long, maybe you should play a healer yourself then"
So which is it? Cuz it cant be both.

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I think the playerbase mentality at this point is that healer is meant to be a role for the lazy players to get a free ticket into endgame content by pushing Medica II 2-3 times a minute. Not for the players who actually like healer and want to have an engaging experience. Why so many people are happier having the first example fill their queues is beyond me though.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I mean, you know how the role plays. You either go into it knowing that you might be a little bored during the healing downtime, or you play something else. You're not a dps, you don't need an overly complex damage rotation that'll punish you for stopping to heal.

It's bad enough that healers are expected to heal as little as possible in order to pump out as much damage as possible.

It's the "go go go, rush rush rush" problem that WoWs M+ has that keeps a lot of tanks and healers away.

If you want to have a full interesting dps rotation, then maybe you should play a dps job.

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This is a tired old argument that gets repeated a lot.

But I guess the first point I'll address is:
"You either go into it knowing that you might be a little bored during the healing downtime, or you play something else."

I started playing this game before the ARR release. I've mained SCH since it has come out. This means I got into SCH when it didn't mean being bored during the healing downtime. So I've not got into this with those expectations.

This is because SCH had a good balance between its healing toolkit and its DPS toolkit.

The problem is this perception that more DPS abilities = more DPS focus.

I'd probably argue that there's more of a DPS focus in 2021 in ShB than there was in 2013 in ARR, because what controls this is the encounter design and the healing tools we have to handle it. We're at a poisition where downtime is higher and our DPS is mostly stripped down.

But let's actually look at what SCH looked like when the job was released just from a downtime perspective:

Ruin, Ruin II, Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, Bane, Energy Drain, Cleric Stance (from cross class skills), Aero (from cross class skills) and Thunder (from cross class skills), Fey Glow, Fey Light

That's a tool kit consisting of 14 different abilities you'd use in your downtime (3 of them from Selene). Granted Aero and Thunder were less commonly used but still were technically still useful.

Despite this, Scholar healing worked great. It complemented WHM very well and all of us still new to the game at the time managed to all handle this 'complexity' just fine because we build our foundation as healers first and learned to work in our DPS. Heck, I can look at my Titan EX clear, which is on YouTube and feel embarrassed that I didn't cast a single DPS spell, because it was a progression group (and we lost a tank) and I wanted to focus more on my healing...so I did. But once I did get better I was able to weave more and more of my DPS abilities in and it was a rewarding feeling. So when people on these forums here me talk about how DPS raises the skill ceiling without raising the skill floor? This is the kind of thing I meant. How complex DPS was didn't matter because my focus was on getting good at healing first and I was able to get as far as EX clears (and heck Twintania too) on that philosophy, because my DPS contribution was not required and for the vast majority of content, it's still the case. And it was the content and my healing kit that controlled how much focus I had on DPS.

Now SCH's old DPS kit sounds like a lot, but it was something you could weave between heals, so it's not like you had an upfront burst and open with dropping all your many DoT's at once, but was a gradual affair.

But a DPS contributing kit of some 14 skills was doable on a healer without it being detrimental in this game. Now I am not saying we need that many, but draw on this example to show that actually, we've done just fine with more complex DPS rotations.

So I might not go with as many as 14 in 2021 because higher content is balanced around a larger healing kit but I'd certainly advocate for something a lot better than what we've got. Especially with the downtime. Sage if anything is a step in the right direction here, it's 7 abilities and by the looks of it, many of the AoE abilities remain useful in a single target situation and its DPS & healing mechanics looks like it'll require you to weave Cardia target changes and shields as part of it (given shields build up Adder's Sting)


Compare those 14 to what SCH has now:
Biolysis, Broil, Ruin II, Art of War, Energy Drain, Chain Stratagem. And note: unlike SGE's abilities, fewer of these abilities are shared before single target and AoE target, so you are more inclined to your Broil spams and Art of War spams.

Now, I realise there's also this "healers are healers not DPS" rhethoric, but the following needs to be taken into consideration:
- This game was designed to favour healers DPSing. It has been a part of its design since the beginning. It's hinted in lore, in quests, in instructions etc.
- Your performance is purely measured around your overall rDPS regardless of your role because the objective of the fight is to get your enemy's HP to 0 in the quickest time, which is then further enforced by DPS checks, enrage timers and the ability to skip certain mechanics based on good DPS. Healing if anything counts as a contributor to rDPS because a dead DPS isn't doing DPS. ​
- Final Fantasy games have often given healing jobs/characters more to do than just heal. They sometimes embrace making hybrids. So if anything it works for an FF MMO, just as it did in FFXI
- The game is scripted and therefore predictable, it means healers can optimise their healing to a level where they've got a lot of room to DPS and don't have to keep people topped off constantly just in case they need to take damage and it makes sense for healers to have something else to do.

I feel the best answer for healers in this game is to embrace the concept healers and DPSing and Sage is an example of them showing some return-to-form on that.

And I guess finally because I feel like ShB has proven it: a complex DPS rotation makes little to no difference on healers forgetting to heal. It's an age old complaint we've had since ARR and if anything it's got worse in recent times and a factor I suspect is part of it is how easy it is tunnel vision when you're spamming 1 or 2 buttons for extended periods of time. This I put down to there being an advantage to DPSing as a healer and to some degree, an expectation to DPS and that's not going to change because of some core designs of this game (nor should it).

Why should a game designed so a section of the playerbase is bored?

Healers used to have lots of fun. Then they changed it so we dont. Why should healers suffer while the other roles (minus dark who are in the same boat) get to have fun while we dont?

I've really just decided to stop arguing for Healer DPS skills, since it's clear both the developers AND majority of the community just don't give a flying fuck. They really don't care if we're bored out of their mind, because they occasionally play a healer on an Expert roulette once a week and think it's fine.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Now, I realise there's also this "healers are healers not DPS" rhethoric, but the following needs to be taken into consideration:
- This game was designed to favour healers DPSing. It has been a part of its design since the beginning. It's hinted in lore, in quests, in instructions etc.
- Your performance is purely measured around your overall rDPS regardless of your role because the objective of the fight is to get your enemy's HP to 0 in the quickest time, which is then further enforced by DPS checks, enrage timers and the ability to skip certain mechanics based on good DPS. Healing if anything counts as a contributor to rDPS because a dead DPS isn't doing DPS. ​
- Final Fantasy games have often given healing jobs/characters more to do than just heal. They sometimes embrace making hybrids. So if anything it works for an FF MMO, just as it did in FFXI
- The game is scripted and therefore predictable, it means healers can optimise their healing to a level where they've got a lot of room to DPS and don't have to keep people topped off constantly just in case they need to take damage and it makes sense for healers to have something else to do.

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I didn't say healers shouldn't dps. I said that healers shouldn't be forced into a dps rotation that will punish them for stopping said rotation in order to heal.

As you've said, this game emphasizes everyone on the team dealing damage. I also understand and agree that when there's no healing to be done, a healer should be using their damaging abilities. What I don't agree with is what I see all the time on these forums is people asking for way too many abilities than are necessary for a healer to have. You don't need a 14 button dps rotation as a healer. Sure, give us a standard 3 button combo, and maybe an "alternate" finisher. (One applies a debuff/DoT, the other is a harder hitting finisher)

But I see people asking for what is essentially a Dragoon style dps combo system. And that would; in my opinion; ruin healing in this game. This game's strategy already seems to be "If you have to use a GCD, heavily consider not using it because you'll waste 300 potency of damage". So having a massive dps combo that; if stopped to throw out a heal might either break the combo, or disrupt your CD window, would cause this to be an even larger issue.

So, the whole "knowing that you might be a little bored during the healing downtime" line isn't me saying "Healers are healers, not dps. You shouldn't be dealing damage".

It's me saying "You're not a dps, and therefore are't going to have a massive 2 minute rotation to keep yourself busy. Your damage "rotation" is going to be significantly more simple, and therefore boring."

Ah, the battle of the veterans who liked effort and the braindead morons who can't fathom a time when the opposite was in place and how something to do beyond 'spamming one button', might have been fun. It never ends.

Ultimately Yoshi and co made it plenty clear they have no intent to revisit the depth of the past. Perhaps understandably so when idiot inc, makes them so much money. There never has been anything wrong with healers having extensive dps options. They have successfully in many past mmos. Hell they even had sufficient burst and cc, to rival dps. It simply couldn't be sustained and the balance was juggled between output windows and self maintenance. It was fun.

This drivel already is boring. There isn't much more to be said on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I didn't say healers shouldn't dps. I said that healers shouldn't be forced into a dps rotation that will punish them for stopping said rotation in order to heal.

As you've said, this game emphasizes everyone on the team dealing damage. I also understand and agree that when there's no healing to be done, a healer should be using their damaging abilities. What I don't agree with is what I see all the time on these forums is people asking for way too many abilities than are necessary for a healer to have. You don't need a 14 button dps rotation as a healer. Sure, give us a standard 3 button combo, and maybe an "alternate" finisher. (One applies a debuff/DoT, the other is a harder hitting finisher)

But I see people asking for what is essentially a Dragoon style dps combo system. And that would; in my opinion; ruin healing in this game. This game's strategy already seems to be "If you have to use a GCD, heavily consider not using it because you'll waste 300 potency of damage". So having a massive dps combo that; if stopped to throw out a heal might either break the combo, or disrupt your CD window, would cause this to be an even larger issue.

So, the whole "knowing that you might be a little bored during the healing downtime" line isn't me saying "Healers are healers, not dps. You shouldn't be dealing damage".

It's me saying "You're not a dps, and therefore are't going to have a massive 2 minute rotation to keep yourself busy. Your damage "rotation" is going to be significantly more simple, and therefore boring."

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On the note of the 14 moves related to DPS, there weren't any combos but any DoTs generally were worked in gradually and were sustained and everything else also between heals. I'm not sure I'd be for a 1, 2, 3 combo because doing any kind of combo set up I think is going to result in that "punishment" of not being able to complete the combo because healing and opens more incentive to do try to complete it, even if it's not as long as DRG's rotation.

But the important point is that, no, the damage "rotation" doesn't have to be so simple that it's boring.

We've had it before and it worked fine. We don't have to necessarily have it to the same extent as I guess not everybody will like that and compromise I guess has to be found, but really, it was never really that bad, as per my testimonial.

Sadly YoshiP has said we won't be going back to how things were (though ironically, they're trying to do a Shield/Pure healing split when this only worked well in 2.0) but we don't have to use the same design, but just give us more to do and make that downtime not dull as heck. It is perfectly achievable.

As I was saying in my last post. More DPS abilities does nothing to raise the skill floor and only raises the skill ceiling, so IMO, it is the best of both worlds, give people something more interesting to do on the high end and not affect the entry level to the role. Because DPS focus is controlled by healing toolkit and mechanics as long as the person prioritizes heals, if they're not optimizing their DPS at that moment as a healer it's fine because healing always takes priority.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

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Since when has anyone asked for a rotation equivalent to Dragoon? Most Healers aren't necessarily asking for a rotation, period. Just more option to flex across their job. In fact, several Healer mains have also asked for debuffs and buffs; anything else to help mitigate the frequent downtime. It's disingenuous to claim Healers want a DPS rotation. They don't. They want to actively engage with content beyond spamming 130 casts of Glare/Malefic/Broil. Whether that is accomplished through a huge increase in outgoing damage, new DPS abilities to break up the nuke spam or the aforementioned utility is a matter of debate, but most will welcome any of those approaches.

Saying players should just accept a role will be boring is just accusing poor design.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Since when has anyone asked for a rotation equivalent to Dragoon? Most Healers aren't necessarily asking for a rotation, period. Just more option to flex across their job. In fact, several Healer mains have also asked for debuffs and buffs; anything else to help mitigate the frequent downtime. It's disingenuous to claim Healers want a DPS rotation. They don't. They want to actively engage with content beyond spamming 130 casts of Glare/Malefic/Broil. Whether that is accomplished through a huge increase in outgoing damage, new DPS abilities to break up the nuke spam or the aforementioned utility is a matter of debate, but most will welcome any of those approaches.

Saying players should just accept a role will be boring is just accusing poor design.

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I mean it's clear what the majority of Tank and Dps players want us to do. We just exist to facilitate their fun. I think the Veteran's should just stop arguing at this point.

We've beaten and beaten and beaten and battered our head on the titanium wall for years, and only have a bloody head and a fucking headache after all these years; the dev team made it clear that they DO. NOT. GIVE. A FLYING FUCK.

As far as I am concerned, enough is enough, I'll play another Role, and let them deal with the ever increasing need to make content even EASIER than it already is. They're going to hit a wall really hard eventually, and will have absolutely no one but themselves to blame.

By that point, I believe most of us Healer Veteran's will be gone entirely by that point, except for the masochistic people who enjoy suffering because of their pride.

I've just, had enough.

Know when to quit.

My solution to this... is to play SMN

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I mean, you know how the role plays. You either go into it knowing that you might be a little bored during the healing downtime, or you play something else. You're not a dps, you don't need an overly complex damage rotation that'll punish you for stopping to heal.

It's bad enough that healers are expected to heal as little as possible in order to pump out as much damage as possible.

It's the "go go go, rush rush rush" problem that WoWs M+ has that keeps a lot of tanks and healers away.

If you want to have a full interesting dps rotation, then maybe you should play a dps job.

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Why doesn't anyone who recommends healers switch roles consider that healers are mandatory for all content. What happens when every single one switches roles.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Why doesn't anyone who recommends healers switch roles consider that healers are mandatory for all content. What happens when every single one switches roles.

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The devs would realize they fucked up

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

What happens when every single one switches roles.

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Some very interesting hotfixes would happen if enough healers went "on strike." And something in me would love to see it happen.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Some very interesting hotfixes would happen if enough healers went "on strike." And something in me would love to see it happen.

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Same. Too bad that is not something that will be easy to organize. There will always be people who are happy with the brain dead mechanics and "pretty flowers" (whm) or pretty stars (AST) to play those two jobs. That and we have trusts for dungeons now so you couldn't even start to make groups sweat for the initial launch due to healer shortages. Plus... Sage now exists and that's sure to get some people excited with how flashy it is.

At this point our only hope is that SOMEONE in the media tour talks to/asks them about healers.... Yeah, I'm not holding my breath there either.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Same. Too bad that is not something that will be easy to organize. There will always be people who are happy with the brain dead mechanics and "pretty flowers" (whm) or pretty stars (AST) to play those two jobs. That and we have trusts for dungeons now so you couldn't even start to make groups sweat for the initial launch due to healer shortages. Plus... Sage now exists and that's sure to get some people excited with how flashy it is.

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True. And the huge influx of new players will probably do a lot to keep the ratio of healers to other jobs pretty steady..

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

At this point our only hope is that SOMEONE in the media tour talks to/asks them about healers.... Yeah, I'm not holding my breath there either.

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Considering the dearth of content creators that even main healer... I think it would be more pertinent for the healer community to generate some constructive and non-aggressive questions and offer them to people in the media tour and encourage them to ask about Healers.
No one will get healers concerns out there but healers, and I don't think there are many healer fans in the tour.

(maybe we could even start a thread about healer questions and concerns to centralize things that we could potentially link people to/copy & paste from? Could that be helpful?)

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Originally Posted by ItMe

(maybe we could even start a thread about healer questions and concerns to centralize things that we could potentially link people to/copy & paste from? Could that be helpful?)

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I think Meoni is a healer (WHM) main... Not sure how he feels about the job though, so... maybe?

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Why doesn't anyone who recommends healers switch roles consider that healers are mandatory for all content. What happens when every single one switches roles.

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Maybe it will never happen.

I'm sure there're still lots of people who enjoy current iteration of healers. They aren't vocal about it but they exist.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Maybe it will never happen.

I'm sure there're still lots of people who enjoy current iteration of healers. They aren't vocal about it but they exist.

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You don't need to stop healing. Just flock to Sage and abandon the other healers. Monk had this happen to it and it made SE think about a redesign.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

You don't need to stop healing. Just flock to Sage and abandon the other healers. Monk had this happen to it and it made SE think about a redesign.

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This was on my mind.....until I saw the starshower in LL.

so beautiful.

Sorry guys. Astro here I come

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I think Meoni is a healer (WHM) main... Not sure how he feels about the job though, so... maybe?

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Nah, Meoni is too much of a nice person to ask the hard hitting questions. Besides, hardcore gameplay really isn't his thing, glamour is, so I highly doubt he would find issue with the playstyle healers have now.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Why doesn't anyone who recommends healers switch roles consider that healers are mandatory for all content. What happens when every single one switches roles.

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We'll be left with people who actually like healing.

I have a question. Maybe this has been talked about before, but humor me for a second.

Instead of asking for more dps abilities, how about we ask for more opportunities to heal? Ask for more unavoidable raid wide damage, or mechanics that favor constant damage. (Tremors that shake the ground that constantly deal damage, or lasers that fly around hitting random players without notice or being telegraphed?)

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

* again, not saying we shouldn't be dpsing during downtime, nor am I saying we shouldn't have a few extra abilities. (Look at my previous post at the bottom of page 17) But having less down time because you simply have more healing to do in the first place would solve this issue, wouldn't it? Keep healers healing. *

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

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Because that'd mean a much bigger change to how they do things (encounter design) than giving Healers engaging downtime.

Not to mention that there are indeed peopel new to healing and/or not as well practiced as others, and you'd risk excluding them from content if you increased healign demands to a point where the well practiced and/or geared Healers wouldn't end up bored again.

And a 'just increase healing in hard content' is not the solution imho. saying 'play Ex/savage/ultimate if you want to have fun as a heal' can not be the solution.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

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We've already asked for that. It's common opinion that more to heal would be great.

However, it's also impossible to eliminate downtime entirely, especially as you and your group become better at a fight. Since player skill = more downtime, it's natural that players who master the class become bored and want something engaging to fill it.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

We'll be left with people who actually like healing.

I have a question. Maybe this has been talked about before, but humor me for a second.

Instead of asking for more dps abilities, how about we ask for more opportunities to heal? Ask for more unavoidable raid wide damage, or mechanics that favor constant damage. (Tremors that shake the ground that constantly deal damage, or lasers that fly around hitting random players without notice or being telegraphed?)

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

* again, not saying we shouldn't be dpsing during downtime, nor am I saying we shouldn't have a few extra abilities. (Look at my previous post at the bottom of page 17) But having less down time because you simply have more healing to do in the first place would solve this issue, wouldn't it? Keep healers healing. *

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People have been asking for this for ages though. And besides, making current content harder to heal doesn't really solve the problem that, in past/old content (which you often do a LOT on this game, going into roulettes etc), where everything is nerfed/easier, playing a healer gets boring again. My DPS and even tank friends are able to feel engaged in the game without doing extremes, savages or only-the-current-content. Make things hit harder wouldn't eliminate downtime.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

We'll be left with people who actually like healing.

I have a question. Maybe this has been talked about before, but humor me for a second.

Instead of asking for more dps abilities, how about we ask for more opportunities to heal? Ask for more unavoidable raid wide damage, or mechanics that favor constant damage. (Tremors that shake the ground that constantly deal damage, or lasers that fly around hitting random players without notice or being telegraphed?)

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

* again, not saying we shouldn't be dpsing during downtime, nor am I saying we shouldn't have a few extra abilities. (Look at my previous post at the bottom of page 17) But having less down time because you simply have more healing to do in the first place would solve this issue, wouldn't it? Keep healers healing. *

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Simple, because SE will never increase the healing requirement in content. Neither in casual nor in high-end content, as they recently mentioned.

Look at it like this, we currently have healers who struggle to heal an expert dungeon, the probably easiest content in the game. So what do you think would happen if SE increases the healing requirement in all content?

This is why people are asking for more involved dps on healers, because it gives better/more seasoned players something engaging to do during downtime while not affecting the bottom line.




And even if you increased the healing requirement to the point that you run out of oGCDs and need to spam your GCD heals it would not make for more interesting gameplay, atleast not with how healing is currently designed.
Our healing abilities don't have any synergy, it's all just "makes HP go up by XYZ". So instead of spamming Glare 24/7 you would be spamming Medica, not exactly an improvement.

And then on top of that you would have the problem of SCH probably not even being able to keep up with the healing, because your GCD heals on SCH are absolutely terrible for getting someone's HP up.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

We'll be left with people who actually like healing.

I have a question. Maybe this has been talked about before, but humor me for a second.

Instead of asking for more dps abilities, how about we ask for more opportunities to heal? Ask for more unavoidable raid wide damage, or mechanics that favor constant damage. (Tremors that shake the ground that constantly deal damage, or lasers that fly around hitting random players without notice or being telegraphed?)

Instead of asking for more dps potential when you have no healing to do, why not just ask for more healing to do so you have less downtime to worry about having to dps?

* again, not saying we shouldn't be dpsing during downtime, nor am I saying we shouldn't have a few extra abilities. (Look at my previous post at the bottom of page 17) But having less down time because you simply have more healing to do in the first place would solve this issue, wouldn't it? Keep healers healing. *

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I personally believe that they best way you can make healers work is by creating weaknesses in the other classes and make interesting ways for healers to "fix" them.

Pure healing as a healer can only get you so far. Once you master it, there is nothing else to do and we fall into the same big pile of nothing less.
They should focus more on the supporting aspect, no only on the healing aspect.

In order to do so, they need to created weaknesses on the other classes. Look back at Heavensward Astro (outside of the fishing meta). Each card had an use, example: restore TP and MP <--- those were "weaknesses" which you as a support /healer had an impact or way to manage and help/support your comrades while healing.

Remember Bard? Had MP regeneration too, to help healers. See Monk? Has Mantra to increase healing potency. See paladin? Can help with healing if you're really bad at it with clemency. This is what in my eyes healers need, skills which can help others.

As a healer in an mmo, there is nothing more satisfying to me than a "hand wash hand" system. But that's just my opinion.

Honestly, I'd be happy with less healing downtime. (Although I do consider weaving healing and damage a staple of FFXIV's healers. I would love more and more varied abilities to fill said downtime on all healers)

Though, an attrition and Triage model such as WoW's would require our AoE heals to be considerably nerfed.

Triage is only possible when you can only heal one/few targets at a time, forcing you to make decisions as to who to prioritize and what to use on them.

When you can top off a whole party with a single blanket spell, there is no triage, no priority.

Everytime the group takes damage the response is always an AoE spell. They are very powerful potency wise and cost a very small fraction of your MP (If any), they have very short cast, or are instant with a very short CD.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

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We already asked for this and, for the most part, the devs were unsuccessful. They tried to do this at the start of Shadowbringers and it started out okay. The levelling dungeons provided a decent challenge for healers. But after that, things got shaky. The level 80 dungeons did not provide any sort of challenge for healers (I hated the 5.2 dungeon so much). Extreme and Savage fights had healers dpsing most of the time and there were little heal checks. The 24-man raids this expansion weren't good for healers either.

And from what I could gather, a Japanese Raid group cleared one of the Savage Eden fights without a healer. Titan Savage I believe.

For the most part, Healers are one of FFXIV biggest weaknesses when it comes to the game itself. They're not fun and simply not challenging aside from the occasional Extreme and Savage fights. But telling healer mains to just play Extreme and Savage for engaging content is never a good thing.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

We already asked for this and, for the most part, the devs were unsuccessful. They tried to do this at the start of Shadowbringers and it started out okay. The levelling dungeons provided a decent challenge for healers. But after that, things got shaky. The level 80 dungeons did not provide any sort of challenge for healers (I hated the 5.2 dungeon so much). Extreme and Savage fights had healers dpsing most of the time and there were little heal checks. The 24-man raids this expansion weren't good for healers either.

And from what I could gather, a Japanese Raid group cleared one of the Savage Eden fights without a healer. Titan Savage I believe.

For the most part, Healers are one of FFXIV biggest weaknesses when it comes to the game itself. They're not fun and simply not challenging aside from the occasional Extreme and Savage fights. But telling healer mains to just play Extreme and Savage for engaging content is never a good thing.

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We're also the most ignored, and told to be quiet the most. "Just be quiet and suffer."

Sometimes people maybe play Healers on an expert once a week when they don't feel like waiting, and they think that makes them an expert in the subject.

Sometimes, SOMETIMES, they do an Alliance Roulette, and then don't cast a single damn heal throughout the entire roulette.

"Expert"

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

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There's nothing "Expert" about Expert Dungeon roulettes. Seriously, I haven't seen a real heal check from a dungeon in a long time. Not since "The Burn" I believe. And no I will not count Bahamut in the 5.5 dungeon. The only "heal check" we get is if a tank decides to get greedy with their pulls and don't use their defensive cooldowns (I know this because I have done this before).

You should play healers because you LIKE the job. Not because you want instant queues.

In my opinion, expert dungeon roulettes should be done at minimum item level or SE should do a hard nerf to the max item level for roulettes entirely.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

There's nothing "Expert" about Expert Dungeon roulettes. Seriously, I haven't seen a real heal check from a dungeon in a long time. Not since "The Burn" I believe. And no I will not count Bahamut in the 5.5 dungeon. The only "heal check" we get is if a tank decides to get greedy with their pulls and don't use their defensive cooldowns (I know this because I have done this before).

You should play healers because you LIKE the job. Not because you want instant queues.

In my opinion, expert dungeon roulettes should be done at minimum item level or SE should do a hard nerf to the max item level for roulettes entirely.

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Except they're not going to do that, ever. They want the game to be as absolutely brain dead as possible. Hell, had a run of Skalla last night with a bunch of sprouts, they have no idea what a Gaze attack is, and took the hit on every single mechanic no matter how many times it presented itself.

This is the kind of player base Square Enix caters to.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

There's nothing "Expert" about Expert Dungeon roulettes. Seriously, I haven't seen a real heal check from a dungeon in a long time. Not since "The Burn" I believe. And no I will not count Bahamut in the 5.5 dungeon. The only "heal check" we get is if a tank decides to get greedy with their pulls and don't use their defensive cooldowns (I know this because I have done this before).

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His Akh Morn attack? BARELY does 25% of a DPS health bar. Hell, you don't even SEE the tankbuster "Flatten" well past when the boss should be dead.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

There's nothing "Expert" about Expert Dungeon roulettes. Seriously, I haven't seen a real heal check from a dungeon in a long time. Not since "The Burn" I believe. And no I will not count Bahamut in the 5.5 dungeon. The only "heal check" we get is if a tank decides to get greedy with their pulls and don't use their defensive cooldowns (I know this because I have done this before).

You should play healers because you LIKE the job. Not because you want instant queues.

In my opinion, expert dungeon roulettes should be done at minimum item level or SE should do a hard nerf to the max item level for roulettes entirely.

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As a person who do all contents in Min IL, including current Savage, older Savage, all ex trials, and 4 man dungeons. Healing is quite intense and I like that. Many spells are actually useful when you're are running Min IL. Some people complain GCD healing spell are useless, but there're lots of times I relied on GCD healing in Min IL contents. SCH shielding becomes very frequently used because my team will wipe without it.

It makes me wonder. In order to make healer gameplay engaging, maybe we can try to homogenize those Defense/ Magic Defense and Vitality in the same tier without affecting gear progression. For example, IL 510 - IL 535 gives the same amount of Vitality and Defense. This way we still need to plan our mitigation and heals, and we still have DPS advantages given by high IL gears.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

As a person who do all contents in Min IL, including current Savage, older Savage, all ex trials, and 4 man dungeons. Healing is quite intense and I like that. Many spells are actually useful when you're are running Min IL. Some people complain GCD healing spell are useless, but there're lots of times I relied on GCD healing in Min IL contents. SCH shielding becomes very frequently used because my team will wipe without it.

It makes me wonder. In order to make healer gameplay engaging, maybe we can try to homogenize those Defense/ Magic Defense and Vitality in the same tier without affecting gear progression. For example, IL 510 - IL 535 gives the same amount of Vitality and Defense. This way we still need to plan our mitigation and heals, and we still have DPS advantages given by high IL gears.

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No, just no.

We should not be making concessions anymore, or having to play minimum ilvl content to feel the most enjoyment or challenge out of our jobs. The mere concept of that idea is absolutely ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

No, just no.

We should not be making concessions anymore, or having to play minimum ilvl content to feel the most enjoyment or challenge out of our jobs. The mere concept of that idea is absolutely ludicrous.

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It's not concession. We all know every content is designed to be approachable in Min IL, meaning the damage output from mechanics cannot exceed the limit of minIL groups. It's ludicrous too when you ask more things for healers to heal, while stacking HP and defense granted by high end IL gear which result in less healing required. No matter how frequently damage is dishing out by the boss, HP and Defense will always be the factors that reduce the need of healing and mitigation.

It's not like I'm saying my idea is good though. It simply sprang on my mind when I see MinIL is mentioned, but now when I think of it, DEF and HP might worth being talked about because these 2 attributes do have impact on healer gameplay.

It's a pretty dangerous slope, too, considering how gear is setup in FF14. As much as people drone on about being challenged and having their brain activated, I'd imagine the crowd that simply wants better gear to make their daily lives easier absolutely eclipses that group (and quite frankly, I believe even the first group likes getting nicer equipment, even if it isn't the primary reason to take on harder stuff). Take away increasing HP and defenses, and you remove part of the reason for gearing up - add healing potency to that list as well, as I've seen people suggest in the past, and healers end up getting up rewarded with nothing more than their Glareficoil hitting a few thousands harder.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

It's a pretty dangerous slope, too, considering how gear is setup in FF14. As much as people drone on about being challenged and having their brain activated, I'd imagine the crowd that simply wants better gear to make their daily lives easier absolutely eclipses that group (and quite frankly, I believe even the first group likes getting nicer equipment, even if it isn't the primary reason to take on harder stuff). Take away increasing HP and defenses, and you remove part of the reason for gearing up - add healing potency to that list as well, as I've seen people suggest in the past, and healers end up getting up rewarded with nothing more than their Glareficoil hitting a few thousands harder.

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Well, as far as I know, HP and defense do not afftect your healing potency. I didn't say anything about adjusting Mind, or any other attributes, on gears

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Well, as far as I know, HP and defense do not afftect your healing potency. I didn't say anything about adjusting Mind, or any other attributes, on gears

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If Mind is lowered, healers will have to heal more and their damage will be more irrelevant because Mind is their primary stat for damage increase.

Forcing healers into mindless GCD heal spamming is a big fat no from me.

If you need to cast succor regularly at min item level when you are optimizing it means that your party is bad, terrible or you are not using your oGCDs correctly. GCD healing is common when progging, but you do that only for a day or two for a raid. From e9s I learned my lesson to let parties wipe regularly whenever I have to heal them too much. Some random DPS is gonna upload the log because they finally managed to get a measly purple color parse. Outside prog, I am not casting healer lb3 ever again.

The main thing I like about better gear is that I do not have to rely on competent PF groups to survive big raid-wides. There are already so many trap farming parties and even more parties with Tanks and DPS not using their mitigation abilities. Some tanks literally just provoke the boss during the Tank buster without mitigating it. I'd rather spend one GCD on rezz than to use it on GCD heal to keep them alive because they forgot to press their buttons.

It's nice that healers are not solely responsible for damage mitigation. Tanks and DPS can mitigate a lot more damage than healers. If we wipe on raid-wides no one can tell me anything about casting succor. One oGCD would have mitigated twice as much.

In EW Succor will be shielding for even less so there is that.

No braindead thread would be complete without Aword at this stage would it.

Fox/Source is correct. Enough with the appeasement. Engage brain, effort and participate in something worthwhile. Nothing about current Job design is anything more than a tedious joke.