Healers Exist for DPS fun only?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Both factors are the fault of fight design not class design. Healer healing output has increased by a massive amount but healing requirements have not increased in parallel but stayed stagnant. Tank mitigation has increased by massive amounts but the relative amounts of incoming damage has actually decreased. Both the Tanks and Healers are designed to handle much more damage intensive fights but those fights do not exist at ilevel in ShB content.

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And never will, God forbid you actually challenge the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

And never will, God forbid you actually challenge the playerbase.

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*sigh* I miss the ARR-HW days. Devs actually had conversations with players. They even acknowledged ARR was a little too easy overall and said they made it that way on purpose and gave their reasoning and as such, the training wheels were off in HW and boy did they deliver. Ravana normal was a huge wake up call that was sorely needed after they nerfed vishap who didn't need a nerf and alexander normal, before ilvl creep, boasted plenty of mechanics to keep players on their toes. Granted Alex savage was overtuned a bit in A3s and A4s, but the NA's habit of attacking them without being at the correct ilvl didn't help matters (given you can bypass ilvl restrictions with a full party)

Then came Sephirot who made it quite clear that mechanics matter in extremes. Followed up by normal nidhogg who was a nice challenging encounter for the story to make up for the cutscene difficulty of the knights of the round. We also had the wiping city of mhach in 3.3 which, as we know nowadays, isn't hard as long as you do mechanics. Which the playerbase didn't half the time after the void ark.

We had raubahn as well whose fast dps check was a good indicator of a player's skill. Though as an ast at the time, I understood why casters struggled to clear that. All them knockbacks >>

sadly we ended up with zurvan's fight which caused the dps or nothing mentality due to a mechanic skip and the abomination that is dun scaith, despite the well designed alexander creator series which required good tanking and healing at various stages. 20k autos, 30k instant busters and 50k tankbusters used in combos with clever mechanics


HW wasnt perfect. Bard, whm, pally and gatherers were examples of that, but it was certainly the peak of this game in terms of overall quality

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

And never will, God forbid you actually challenge the playerbase.

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I don't understand why we can't have difficulty sliders that go, y'know, in the other direction. Even many old dungeons on min ilvl are ridiculously easy.

Give us OPTIONS!

I'm thinking that new healers think that way. Last alliance raid ran both healers spent 99% of there time doing dps and not healing anyone. They only used there heals it was on the tank when they did heal.

Let’s not forget how many people complained about Thunder God Cid and got him nerfed too. Such a sad tale because i absolutely loved his fight and it wasn’t even *that* difficult. It was the perfect amount of it imo. People just seem to cry nerf nerf nerf everytime they’re forced to actually use their brain and look at their hotbars. At the rate 14 is going, it seems like it’s just going to turn into a very long slice of life anime movie, with very little actual action.

What they did to healers in 5.0 was just short of unforgivable. I have no faith in this "Live Letter" bullcrap. I think they'll avoid healers entirely and then when release comes we're all going to be disappointed. Again.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Let’s not forget how many people complained about Thunder God Cid and got him nerfed too. Such a sad tale because i absolutely loved his fight and it wasn’t even *that* difficult. It was the perfect amount of it imo. People just seem to cry nerf nerf nerf everytime they’re forced to actually use their brain and look at their hotbars. At the rate 14 is going, it seems like it’s just going to turn into a very long slice of life anime movie, with very little actual action.

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Like when they nerfed Steps? That was a perfect trial, an absolute gorgeous beauty, enforcing who had what roles, and knowing how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Truen

What they did to healers in 5.0 was just short of unforgivable. I have no faith in this "Live Letter" bullcrap. I think they'll avoid healers entirely and then when release comes we're all going to be disappointed. Again.

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But nothing will be done about it because all that matters to them is that the loud vocal shills on Twitter and Reddit are satisfied, which they will be as SE could literally announce no new jobs and only 1 dungeon and they’d still be happy LOL

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Originally Posted by Lexis

A healer's job is primarily to heal and their toolkit is designed accordingly. A DPS' primary job is damage, hence why they get the complexe rotations and we get the vast healing repertoire with a few simple damage spell to weave in when the opprtunity presents itself. If you want complexe DPS rotation with the ability to heal and raise people on the side, try Red Mage, it's what drew me to the class initially and I loved it.

If healers get the DPS potential of ranged DPS, why would anyone play a ranged DPS ever again? They'd just be inferior to healers in every way. Healers should never get a complexe DPS rotation and I'll never understand why people want to gatekeep the healing role to the top percent of players.

If healers get this kind of potential, fights will be balanced around it and dps queue times will skyrocket because no one will want to/be able to keep up with the insane demands of the class.

If healing bores you, please just play a DPS.

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Iost count how many times I say this it just beyond silly. Its like not only people too none stop asking for more dps button as heal but probably am sure expect damage bigger than sam and blm. People already lazy enough to do their basic role and let party mates die on 20% too busy doing glare male and broil and me being an ast main know this thanks ofc to random co healer dps bots. But ah dps give better buffs than lame snooze boring shadow bringers cards.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But nothing will be done about it because all that matters to them is that the loud vocal shills on Twitter and Reddit are satisfied, which they will be as SE could literally announce no new jobs and only 1 dungeon and they’d still be happy LOL

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Yeah, I know the type. Sycophants and brown-nosers really suck.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Based off of what evidence?

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https://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC1r0eJZ-c&t=313s

Malefic IV cast straight in front of you.

Then what follows is your new instant spell, obviously a shield. It most likely boosts stats as well, seems like a 1-2-1-2 rotation. You see the AST casting another malefic cast(behind the bard) which is followed by the same new spell.

It is possible that the new spell is actually an oGCD with a short cd or it can stack like Essential Dignity. In any case, it is going to be something you play around. If it is GCD, it is going to be more than a shield, if it is oGCD, it probably becomes available after Malefic casts.

Also, since AST is casting Malefic IV, you can speculate that healers did not get nuke upgrade at level cap. At least AST didn't. Healers will need an increase in potency which they could get from somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC1r0eJZ-c&t=313s

Malefic IV cast straight in front of you.

Then what follows is your new instant spell, obviously a shield. It most likely boosts stats as well, seems like a 1-2-1-2 rotation. You see the AST casting another malefic cast(behind the bard) which is followed by the same new spell.

It is possible that the new spell is actually an oGCD with a short cd or it can stack like Essential Dignity. In any case, it is going to be something you play around. If it is GCD, it is going to be more than a shield, if it is oGCD, it probably becomes available after Malefic casts.

Also, since AST is casting Malefic IV, you can speculate that healers did not get nuke upgrade at level cap. At least AST didn't. Healers will need an increase in potency which they could get from somewhere else.

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That’s the same type of animation used for aspected benefic. It’s aspected benefic II as we’ve seen white mage is also getting an upgrade to divine benison.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IkC1r0eJZ-c&t=313s

Malefic IV cast straight in front of you.

Then what follows is your new instant spell, obviously a shield. It most likely boosts stats as well, seems like a 1-2-1-2 rotation. You see the AST casting another malefic cast(behind the bard) which is followed by the same new spell.

It is possible that the new spell is actually an oGCD with a short cd or it can stack like Essential Dignity. In any case, it is going to be something you play around. If it is GCD, it is going to be more than a shield, if it is oGCD, it probably becomes available after Malefic casts.

Also, since AST is casting Malefic IV, you can speculate that healers did not get nuke upgrade at level cap. At least AST didn't. Healers will need an increase in potency which they could get from somewhere else.

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Or, maybe, just maybe, it’s a benchmark trailer and they don’t want to give away all the new stuff until the job action trailer comes out, so what’s in there has all the classes at level 82 (as x4 is traditionally the healer nuke upgrade level for each expansion).

Assuming that healers are getting combos of that sort is the biggest bluster I’ve ever seen. SE hates gating any form of healing behind DPS. That’s why cleric stance got removed in the first place. We already know its an oGCD from the particles around the AST as it was used. We’re assuming it’s a shield because all of the healers appear to have that sort of action. No shot on it giving a stat buff. They’ll rework cards to do that first if they do it at all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s the same type of animation used for aspected benefic. It’s aspected benefic II as we’ve seen white mage is also getting an upgrade to divine benison.

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It actually isn't

Aspected benefic

Divine Benison just got its sfx updated, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Or, maybe, just maybe, it’s a benchmark trailer and they don’t want to give away all the new stuff until the job action trailer comes out, so what’s in there has all the classes at level 82 (as x4 is traditionally the healer nuke upgrade level for each expansion).

Assuming that healers are getting combos of that sort is the biggest bluster I’ve ever seen. SE hates gating any form of healing behind DPS. That’s why cleric stance got removed in the first place. We already know its an oGCD from the particles around the AST as it was used. We’re assuming it’s a shield because all of the healers appear to have that sort of action. No shot on it giving a stat buff. They’ll rework cards to do that first if they do it at all.

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The healing doesn't need to be gated, the bonus stat buff could be.

In Shb they did showcase sch's new nuke, it was the same in HS with whm. In SB we didn't see any nukes being cast but we know the benchmark was done at level cap because whm used confession and sch used fey union.

The chances of AST being at level cap in Endwalker are pretty high when you look at how they used to do their benchmarks.

It is 100% a shield because the particles around AST have the lunar symbol which is closely related to the Noctural sect. And I was just wondering if the seals you have aligned could change the symbols that you have when you are casting it. Probably not.

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Then what follows is your new instant spell, obviously a shield. It most likely boosts stats as well, seems like a 1-2-1-2 rotation. You see the AST casting another malefic cast(behind the bard) which is followed by the same new spell.

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Sadly, if you watch the footage closely, we don't see the AST use the skill immediately after Malefic. Instead, they seem to wait a moment and act as if the skill is on the GCD.

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That’s the same type of animation used for aspected benefic. It’s aspected benefic II as we’ve seen white mage is also getting an upgrade to divine benison.

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While you might be right about what these skills are (since no one can really know until Yoshi unleashes this knowledge upon us, for better or worse), neither of the animations used are exact matches to Aspected Benefic or Divine Benison's current animation.
In the case of AST, at this point, I suspect that skill is either a skill/spell on the GCD that has limited charges or mimics the Lily system (because homogenization is the name of the game for healers), or it's a single-target OGCD that is placed and then can be re-cast for a specific effect to take place (Possibly, a "rewind" ability, or, potentially, a pinpoint horoscope (yaaaaay)).

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The chances of AST being at level cap in Endwalker are pretty high when you look at how they used to do their benchmarks.

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On the other hand, AST is always behind in terms of their single-target nukes, so even if AST doesn't get an upgrade to Malefic, it's possible the others will get updates to their respective nukes.
That said, it would be slightly disappointing, if only because the particle effect for Malefic IV isn't exactly the greatest thing ever.

Honesty I think the shield after the cast is just an updated Celestial Intersection but since noct sect is going away, it will either get the extra particle effects during the 71-80 leveling process. Could there be a stat buff attached to it, maybe but I wouldn’t hold my breath with it. Their track record is really spotty considering healers after ARR.

I just find it weird that they'd state to want to separate raw and shield healers, and then [seemingly] go and upgrade AST and WHM shields of all things, it just... doesn't add up

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I just find it weird that they'd state to want to separate raw and shield healers, and then [seemingly] go and upgrade AST and WHM shields of all things, it just... doesn't add up

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SE isn’t good at balancing at all. Remember when Yoshi said back in HW that they tune raids without healer dps in mind? Yeah that’s very obviously a lie as week one clears literally wouldn’t exist without healer dps lmao.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

SE isn’t good at balancing at all. Remember when Yoshi said back in HW that they tune raids without healer dps in mind? Yeah that’s very obviously a lie as week one clears literally wouldn’t exist without healer dps lmao.

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I find myself rolling my eyes whenever Yoshi says anything anymore.

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Originally Posted by Truen

I find myself rolling my eyes whenever Yoshi says anything anymore.

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Especially when he talks about Jobs other than Black Mage. Like, "Uh huh, sure, yeaaaa, mmhmm."

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Especially when he talks about Jobs other than Black Mage. Like, "Uh huh, sure, yeaaaa, mmhmm."

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Actually, it would be kind of neat if one of the job designers got on a live letter. Not sure of the chance of that happening, tho.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

Actually, it would be kind of neat if one of the job designers got on a live letter. Not sure of the chance of that happening, tho.

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Yo, yeah~
That would be pretty neat to see.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

SE isn’t good at balancing at all. Remember when Yoshi said back in HW that they tune raids without healer dps in mind? Yeah that’s very obviously a lie as week one clears literally wouldn’t exist without healer dps lmao.

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To be fair, maybe they're not looking, or weren't looking at the time, for it to be cleared week one?

Not everything has to, you know.

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Originally Posted by Imora

To be fair, maybe they're not looking, or weren't looking at the time, for it to be cleared week one?

Not everything has to, you know.

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? Why would you design content in a way that it couldn’t be cleared when released. If that’s the case then that’s even worse balancing than we’ve been addressing right now LMAO.Weird logic.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

SE isn’t good at balancing at all. Remember when Yoshi said back in HW that they tune raids without healer dps in mind? Yeah that’s very obviously a lie as week one clears literally wouldn’t exist without healer dps lmao.

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It is more like a lack of communication between Yoshi and the designers. A 5yo kid can calculate the healer's dps and deduce that from the raid boss's total HP.

FFXIV is actually a balanced game. All DPS jobs are viable everywhere. All tank jobs are viable everywhere. All healers are viable everywhere. And the numbers are relatively the same for each type of class.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

? Why would you design content in a way that it couldn’t be cleared when released. If that’s the case then that’s even worse balancing than we’ve been addressing right now LMAO.Weird logic.

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Someone wasn’t here for Gordias.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Someone wasn’t here for Gordias.

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Gordias is an example of their bad balancing. Not sure what you’re getting at here…

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

It is more like a lack of communication between Yoshi and the designers. A 5yo kid can calculate the healer's dps and deduce that from the raid boss's total HP.

FFXIV is actually a balanced game. All DPS jobs are viable everywhere. All tank jobs are viable everywhere. All healers are viable everywhere. And the numbers are relatively the same for each type of class.

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Lack of communication…seems to be a constant problem with the 14 team in general. Lack of communication between devs and lack of communication between the playerbase. Interesting…

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

? Why would you design content in a way that it couldn’t be cleared when released. If that’s the case then that’s even worse balancing than we’ve been addressing right now LMAO.Weird logic.

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IIRC there actually IS an interview where they admit to intentionally overtuning the Alexander raids because the raiding community kept saying Savage was too easy. They made them too hard to clear on week 1 because they were trying to find what level of difficulty the community wanted.

Here is a bit of an excerpt about that last part from an interview I do have on hand:

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Gondai: It really is all about trial and error. Some people were saying that Final Coil of Bahamut was too easy, so while developing Normal difficulty content and upping the overall scale of the project for Heavensward, we tried to make the Savage raids hard enough to satisfy these players and ended up catching a lot of flack for it. For that, you all have our apologies.

Yoshida: I thought “Anyone who can’t beat Faust [enemy fought before the boss in Alexander - The Fist of the Father], should quit now! You said this game is too easy, didn’t you? Then how about this!?” I guess I got kind of carried away, and made a bad call.

Takai: Back then, every time we’d beat a raid, we’d go complain to the dev team, “Why can’t you design stuff that makes us feel good about completing it!?”

Yoshida: And they’d come back with, “If we do that, you and Maehiro will start bragging that it’s too easy!” [laughs]

Takai: Then I’d say, “It’s our job to give the players something to brag about, though! Make the raids more fun!” [laughs]

Gondai: We don’t mind the boasting, but we got the impression you really did think it’s not hard enough. We figured out that if you guys say it’s too easy it means we’ve probably hit that sweet spot in terms of difficulty.

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Sauce:
https://na.finalfantasy.com/topics/21

Another detail they spoke about was their method of testing and tuning savage back in HW. It turned out that they were testing turns not as a whole, but phase by phase and with immunity to boot (Likely because of a lack of stability within the testing team). New phases were being tested with fresh cooldowns which heavily skewed DPS requirements as a whole.

I don't think Gordias was intended to be unkillable on week 1. Rather the sac strat just made the dps check much harder for A4S (but in turn greatly simplified the fight).

Twintania is the key example of SE trying to ensure something couldn't be cleared upon it's release.

So what i’m hearing here is….SE sucks at balancing both jobs and raid content. Fun times

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Another detail they spoke about was their method of testing and tuning savage back in HW. It turned out that they were testing turns not as a whole, but phase by phase and with immunity to boot (Likely because of a lack of stability within the testing team). New phases were being tested with fresh cooldowns which heavily skewed DPS requirements as a whole.

I don't think Gordias was intended to be unkillable on week 1. Rather the sac strat just made the dps check much harder for A4S (but in turn greatly simplified the fight).

Twintania is the key example of SE trying to ensure something couldn't be cleared upon it's release.

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The problem was that without sac strat you never have enough mana for the fight on min itemlvl. Ironic that the sac start was less mana intensive then keeping nisis for 3 minis I mean why would you make the tick dmg at the start for around 4-5 k hp in a fight we’re you had tons of aoe and was forced too take laser. Also a random death on nisi player was still a wipe and even when you had nisi, royal pentacle did deal a lot of dmg too these player. Also jagd doll aoes and nisi not even on the last phase no they made that stuff on leg 4. Like the hassle to keep it through so much stuff and like I said the healing and mana required too get them even there was atrocious.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

The problem was that without sac strat you never have enough mana for the fight on min itemlvl. Ironic that the sac start was less mana intensive then keeping nisis for 3 minis I mean why would you make the tick dmg at the start for around 4-5 k hp in a fight we’re you had tons of aoe and was forced too take laser. Also a random death on nisi player was still a wipe and even when you had nisi, royal pentacle did deal a lot of dmg too these player. Also jagd doll aoes and nisi not even on the last phase no they made that stuff on leg 4. Like the hassle to keep it through so much stuff and like I said the healing and mana required too get them even there was atrocious.

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Also, back then, White Mage had serious MP problems, and Scholar was a near infinite mp battery. The issue was Scholar was exceptional at single target heals, while very weak at AoE healing, meaning for all its near infinite MP, it had to rely on White Mage for the brunt of the AoE healing. Which is why people said screw it, and developed the same strategy.

Gordias was brutal for the sake of gauging difficulty, where as Coil was brutally hard because of the 8 second latency and unmarked mechanics.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

while very weak at AoE healing,

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Until it got Indom in 3.0 and People started to under how strong that Whispering Dawn was when used with Rouse and Fey Illumination with stuff like Mantra and Convalescence being bonuses. That was when Sch got that weakness somewhat fixed in terms of its aoe weaknesses. THen they doubled down with whm having little mitigation weaknesses when they got rid of the 18 percent onf stoneskin and making protect reducing both magic and physical without the trait while trying to make up for those with lackluster replacements with half medica and quick stoneskin.

While I'm also frustrated and would be the first to criticize the relative lack of two-way communication with the development team, it's helpful if we ourselves don't also propagate the spread of misinformation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

SE isn’t good at balancing at all. Remember when Yoshi said back in HW that they tune raids without healer dps in mind? Yeah that’s very obviously a lie as week one clears literally wouldn’t exist without healer dps lmao.

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This quote gets paraphrased quite often. The problem is that when you paraphrase what someone else has paraphrased based on what they had seen paraphrased in some reddit post some time back, then you start distorting it and losing more and more context.

This is the original quote, which was taken from the Game Watch interview with Yoshi-p during the EU Media event (05/19/2015) (link to full translation):

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Originally Posted by Game Watch Interview

Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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So yes, as the quote itself suggests, week one clears wouldn't exist without healer dps.

Historically, when teams did world-progression on raid tier content, it was done below the recommended ilvl. This is because there's a difficulty curve. Take Gordias for example. The ilvl requirement ranges from 190 (A1S) to 205 (A4S). You're entering with an i190 weapon and i180 token gear. And while crafted gear can help offset some of the differential, you'll probably need to get down the first 1-2 fights without it (because the gear itself takes time to make). So when you're playing at an ilvl disadvantage, then you have to put out higher raid damage than the development team predicts in their estimate. Gordias took something like 34 days for EM to get the world first clear because of how it was tuned. You don't want overtuned raid tiers.

And remember that you see a lot more variability in the average team. So let's say that you have a couple of DPS who are below the target. Well, perhaps you make up for that because your healers actually do contribute a sizable amount of damage. Or failing that, you get some more gear upgrades and try again. You generally can't tune content for wide a range of skill levels without having some degree of gear progression over the tier. This is just a back-of-the-envelope way of tuning a dps check. I think it's a very reasonable base assumption for tuning, especially if you're trying to design it such that a wide range of player skill levels and playstyles are able to get through. You want them to underestimate your damage output as a tank or healer when doing their base calculations. You want to be able to cross-compensate for weaker DPS when you're playing tank or healer.

And let's also remember this is also from 2015.

I do think it's valuable to feedback actual problems to the dev team. Tanks and healers need more interesting rotations? Sure. Tanks and healers should be able to contribute a much bigger portion of overall raid dps to cross-compensate for underperforming DPS players? Definitely. Tanks and healers need some genuine mitigation/survival challenges and checks with raid wipe potential? Absolutely. Healers damage output is being deliberately underestimated in a back-of-the-envelope calculation for raid tuning that was being used during internal testing in 2015? Really don't care. If they didn't deliberately underestimate the dps prediction, most groups probably wouldn't clear.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

snip

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It’s still applicable in this overall conversation though, as it goes to show what kind of thought process they go through with the tanks and healers. It’s pretty clear cut that they get less attention than the dps do and that needs to stop, the issue here is it won’t. SE literally doesn’t care about healers or tanks as they aren’t the ones that are the loudest and most vocal on twitter and reddit. Unfortunately a majority of players are now being catered to by SE by making content absolutely brain dead on release, so jobs are just being dumbed down more and more. The 2015 interview is an interesting insight on their thought process when creating raids. While it is an old interview, it’s likely some of that thought process stayed and, going by this expansions raids, it’s clear some of it has. Nothing has really changed despite them saying how in this expansion fights were going to be more heal demanding.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

????

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No, that particular quote really doesn't show anything that you said. In fact, if you look at the date, it was made just a few months before Gordias, the raid group destroyer. They actually had to go back and ease up the requirements even further in subsequent content releases because of how completely demoralized the playerbase was from trying to make the dps checks. And the follow-up result, Midas, was mechanically the overall best designed standard raid this game has ever released. So even that calculation overestimates what the vast majority of the playerbase is capable of doing.

You've written a complete non sequitur. I also feel that more recent content has been poorly designed from both a tank and healer perspective. I also think that there's much too much value attached to playing a DPS job over the other two roles. But I cannot for the life of me understand why you would use that quote, about how they calculated the dps checks in Gordias, as the basis of your point.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Until it got Indom in 3.0 and People started to under how strong that Whispering Dawn was when used with Rouse and Fey Illumination with stuff like Mantra and Convalescence being bonuses.

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I have no idea if they changed Rouse from HW to SB but in Stormblood atleast it never actually worked on anything but Embrace. Rouse increased healing magic, not healing abilities, so it only worked on GCDs, of which Eos only had 1.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I have no idea if they changed Rouse from HW to SB but in Stormblood atleast it never actually worked on anything but Embrace. Rouse increased healing magic, not healing abilities, so it only worked on GCDs, of which Eos only had 1.

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Back in Heavensward and pre patch 4.3, Whispering Dawn was a spell and not a ability. As a result, Whispering Dawn benefited from Rouse and all those other abilities That increased healing magic.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

No, that particular quote really doesn't show anything that you said. In fact, if you look at the date, it was made just a few months before Gordias, the raid group destroyer. They actually had to go back and ease up the requirements even further in subsequent content releases because of how completely demoralized the playerbase was from trying to make the dps checks. And the follow-up result, Midas, was mechanically the overall best designed standard raid this game has ever released. So even that calculation overestimates what the vast majority of the playerbase is capable of doing.

You've written a complete non sequitur. I also feel that more recent content has been poorly designed from both a tank and healer perspective. I also think that there's much too much value attached to playing a DPS job over the other two roles. But I cannot for the life of me understand why you would use that quote, about how they calculated the dps checks in Gordias, as the basis of your point.

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Because i’m talking about their overall raid design thought process, how they seem to apply it to tanks and healers. Don’t really see how it’s a “non sequitur” but if you don’t understand it that’s fine. I used that quote simply to showcase their weird mentality with Yoshi seeming to be very disconnected with the playerbase. In that quote he acknowledges how healer dps is somewhat necessary for a majority of groups to clear the harder content, but then nothing has ever been done to make healer dps more interesting and instead they’ve actually done the opposite and made it worse in the case of scholar. He also says “This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.” So it’s like, they acknowledge it’s necessary, but also see it as a last resort… It’s like they don’t understand their own design process.