Online store prices are outrageously high!

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Zitat von Gameovers

xD And yeah you're right about that. Greed is why RMT will never go away in any form so blargh. Tho now I want to ask you.... do you think SL will bomb like BFA? I watched a video and the streamer in question was pissed about the number of changes that are coming to SL. How do you feel about it? :o

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Ion is still captain of the ship so to speak so... I think it will. the story, such as it is, has wandered so far off things in recent years, and lost so much of what originally even made it passable, that right now, I just dont think they can save it. its all just making money until they get tired of doing so.

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Zitat von linayar

Is that why there is more gil sink in WoW than in FFXIV, so that people would be incentivized to buy tokens? If so, I hope even more that SE never copy this token idea.

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I believe we need much more gil sinks in FFXIV. Gil seems very useless for most players and personally have no incentive at all to level a crafter/gatherer right now.

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Zitat von SamRF

I believe we need much more gil sinks in FFXIV. Gil seems very useless for most players and personally have no incentive at all to level a crafter/gatherer right now.

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with the current bot issues on the MP levelling a crafter unless its for personal use is pointless. you will never make the investment back unless you stand on the mp 24/7

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Zitat von Kes13a

your token is GUARANTEED to sell within 2-12 hours.

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When did Blizzard add that guarantee? When I was playing, it was still a market driven mostly by player demand with Blizzard using a price regulation formula to keep the gold price from fluctuating too greatly in a 24 hour period. If there was no player willing to pay gold to buy the token, then it sat there on the AH until someone finally did.

I can remember players complaining when it took a couple of days for their tokens to sell because those with the gold were waiting for the price formula to drive the price back down.

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Zitat von SamRF

I believe we need much more gil sinks in FFXIV. Gil seems very useless for most players and personally have no incentive at all to level a crafter/gatherer right now.

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Definitely. Gil is much too easy to make when you actively play the game (as opposed to AFKing in Limsa or wherever). You don't need a crafter/gatherer to be making gil. There are other options, like treasure maps, that will earn a player quite a bit of gil if they just do them.

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Zitat von Kes13a

with the current bot issues on the MP levelling a crafter unless its for personal use is pointless. you will never make the investment back unless you stand on the mp 24/7

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Leveling crafting never required a major investment unless you were trying to power level it by buying leve items from others. It's even less of one now with the various XP sources getting a massive boost this expansion.

I have no problem making a profit on the MB selling crafted items, including on my low level alt. There are plenty of items the bots - and other crafters - aren't touching that are still selling. Profit is profit and it adds up over time. There's no point in getting super wealthy fast when there's nothing to spend that wealth on.

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Zitat von Jojoya

When did Blizzard add that guarantee? When I was playing, it was still a market driven mostly by player demand with Blizzard using a price regulation formula to keep the gold price from fluctuating too greatly in a 24 hour period. If there was no player willing to pay gold to buy the token, then it sat there on the AH until someone finally did.

I can remember players complaining when it took a couple of days for their tokens to sell because those with the gold were waiting for the price formula to drive the price back down..

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I dont recall, but now when you post them, they say to expect your gold within 2-12 hours.

Edit: given there is virtually zero fluctuation, thats why I suspect zero player direction

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Zitat von Kes13a

I dont recall, but now when you post them, they say to expect your gold within 2-12 hours.

Edit: given there is virtually zero fluctuation, thats why I suspect zero player direction

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So still not a guarantee, just a estimate.

As for fluctuation, the market might have hit a point of stability where players on both sides of the transaction feel they're getting good value. If Shadowlands draws former players back and entices new ones, prices could go back for the first month or so after release before dropping back down to the stable point.

I wouldn't object to a token system in FFXIV. I don't feel the WoW token itself harmed WoW in any way. The damage to the economy there was from the insane gold generation through Garrison treasure missions first and world quests later while giving players nothing to spend that gold on. The Mad Merchant in Legion was a good idea - except the player who had the gold to spend frequently couldn't find it spawned on any world in their CRZ group to be able to buy the items. It was indeed "mad" of Blizzard to make it difficult for players to spend the gold they wanted drained from the economy.

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Zitat von SamRF

I believe we need much more gil sinks in FFXIV. Gil seems very useless for most players and personally have no incentive at all to level a crafter/gatherer right now.

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Sorry, I'd rather not. If you like crafting/gathering because that's the activity you enjoy or because it helps you make your own gears/potions/housing items/glamours/minions/etc, that's great. But if you only like crafting/gathering to make money, I'd rather that be limited to that type of people's own desire to make money and not because it's a necessity to make money. I like not having to care about money other than when I want that optional minion or gear for glamour from the marketboard.

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Zitat von SamRF

I believe we need much more gil sinks in FFXIV. Gil seems very useless for most players and personally have no incentive at all to level a crafter/gatherer right now.

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I can think of an excellent gold sink but it will never happen...

Make Fantasias buyable in game with gil (as well as Mogstation if necessary). Make them cost millions, buyable from a NPC, not able to be placed on the Marketboard.

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Zitat von Ayuhra

I can think of an excellent gold sink but it will never happen...

Make Fantasias buyable in game with gil (as well as Mogstation if necessary). Make them cost millions, buyable from a NPC, not able to be placed on the Marketboard.

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See, these are the kinds of ideas people come up with when they want a gil sink. It's just so unnecessary.

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Zitat von linayar

See, these are the kinds of ideas people come up with when they want a gil sink. It's just so unnecessary.

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I don't get it. Are you being snarky at me?

What does it hurt to have Fantasias purchasable with large amounts of gil as well as on Mogstation? Name changes would still cost real money.

I mean, I likely wouldn't buy them because I never have any gil but some people do want something to spend gil on.

Unlike other MMOs races in FFXIV are purely cosmetic so no aspect of game balance would be harmed.

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Zitat von Ayuhra

What does it hurt to have Fantasias purchasable with large amounts of gil as well as on Mogstation?

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No snark and not the point. What does it hurt not to cost millions of gil on anything?

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Zitat von linayar

No snark and not the point. What does it hurt not to cost millions of gil on anything?

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Well some people just want something to sink millions of gil on. What are the gil sinks in this game? Player Housing is certainly one and it's a roll of dice whether any player will ever get a house.

But the "millions" is just a thrown out there figure, it could be any amount.

Like I said, I'm in game broke basically all the time. I don't know what things cost.

I just know I hear about the wealthier players wanting something to spend gil on.

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Zitat von Ayuhra

Well some people just want something to sink millions of gil on.

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And my question is why? If people are uncomfortable with having too much money, maybe the game should take a look at lowering the maximum amount of gil people can hold. I actually like not having to run out of money and still be able to buy things I like without having to actively farm for gil. This idea that a gil sink is necessary/wanted is just so foreign a concept to me.

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Zitat von Ayuhra

I don't get it. Are you being snarky at me?

What does it hurt to have Fantasias purchasable with large amounts of gil as well as on Mogstation? Name changes would still cost real money.

I mean, I likely wouldn't buy them because I never have any gil but some people do want something to spend gil on.

Unlike other MMOs races in FFXIV are purely cosmetic so no aspect of game balance would be harmed.

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The major issue I can see, and I know the bots selling it and the people who think its important will disagree...

but.. VIRTUAL MONEY IS MEANINGLESS

being able to buy things with gil from the cash shop is not going to pay for any game or company costs. so, I dont see that wish going anywhere.

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Zitat von linayar

And my question is why? If people are uncomfortable with having too much money, maybe the game should take a look at lowering the maximum amount of gil people can hold. I actually like not having to run out of money and still be able to buy things I like without having to actively farm for gil. This idea that a gil sink is necessary/wanted is just so foreign a concept to me.

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There are people with multiple capped gil retainers. There is far too much money out in the economy. These few can control markets at will when they want to. However it would be unfair to simply lower the cap and "oh well.. you guys are SOL" especially since crazy amounts or not, they did (usually) get it all within game mechanics. We need something for these people to spend money on that isn't simply swirling the gil around the population. The game lacks adequate gil sinks. Housing is a one time purchase. Repairs are laughable. Teleportation is a extremely minor cost. We used to have things like failing regular melding or difficult crafts to take things out of circulation but all those got turned wayyy down.

We need sinks that work for "endgame" people. We need to take some money out of the economy permanently. For many gil is meaningless. They can buy ANYTHING on the AH without even blinking. I used to be one of those who looked at the housing prices and thought "damn.. that's like.. all the money I've ever made". Not so much anymore. Everything I do endgame brings in millions a week. Treasure maps, retainer ventures, reselling GC seal items just to eat poetics, selling Materia from expert runs, the list goes on and on.

Our economy is broken. There is no regular removal of meaningful amounts of gil.

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Zitat von linayar

And my question is why? If people are uncomfortable with having too much money, maybe the game should take a look at lowering the maximum amount of gil people can hold. I actually like not having to run out of money and still be able to buy things I like without having to actively farm for gil. This idea that a gil sink is necessary/wanted is just so foreign a concept to me.

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I think the reason being from the point of view of wanting gil to have some use. It's like poetics. At some point, there's just nothing you can really do with it except fly to idyllshire, empty your capped poetics on demicrystals then repeat because you've exhausted every possible avenue to use them on.

The game's gil sink is substituted by tomes, so you end up spending less with your own money and you typically use it for the finer things like outfits that other people craft from treasure materials or housing related stuff. But once that's also accomplish, your wallet just increases on its own passively so yeah, I think players who have that throwaway money just want to see it have "active" use so they're motivated to make more. That's my take on it.

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Zitat von Krotoan

Our economy is broken. There is no regular removal of meaningful amounts of gil.

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the bots dont care about your end game gold sink. they already DO control the markets and all they do with their gil is sell it for real money.

not everyone is that good with Gil though, I know several people that dont have a stack of it wanting to be spent and they are end game. so for every person you says is sitting on a pile and wants a sink for it to fall into, I bet there are more than a couple that would struggle to do that on a regular basis and the game would become more like a job just trying to afford a repair bill.

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Zitat von Kes13a

the bots dont care about your end game gold sink. they already DO control the markets and all they do with their gil is sell it for real money.

not everyone is that good with Gil though, I know several people that dont have a stack of it wanting to be spent and they are end game. so for every person you says is sitting on a pile and wants a sink for it to fall into, I bet there are more than a couple that would struggle to do that on a regular basis and the game would become more like a job just trying to afford a repair bill.

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Bots are their own problem with different solutions, I can agree they have a negative effect on the games economy and things need to be done about them as well. Perhaps better tracking of where the gil starts and stopping those transactions before they can happen. (though SE seems reluctant as hell to do anything about it for whatever reason)

People "struggling" simply haven't tried. I know that sounds a bit elitist but after about 7 years of thinking "how does everyone else have so much gil?" then in the last 3 years moving to "oh.. yeah I guess I'll move my large house cause this is slightly better" it just takes a little research and maybe 20-30 minutes to an hour of daily investment.

You are mistaken if you think I want this to be imposed on the "little guys" though. I don't think a leveling person or a casual endgame player should NEED money.. I just think those with excess cash need something to spend it on.

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Zitat von Krotoan

There are people with multiple capped gil retainers. There is far too much money out in the economy. These few can control markets at will when they want to. However it would be unfair to simply lower the cap and "oh well.. you guys are SOL" especially since crazy amounts or not, they did (usually) get it all within game mechanics. We need something for these people to spend money on that isn't simply swirling the gil around the population. The game lacks adequate gil sinks. Housing is a one time purchase. Repairs are laughable. Teleportation is a extremely minor cost. We used to have things like failing regular melding or difficult crafts to take things out of circulation but all those got turned wayyy down.

We need sinks that work for "endgame" people. We need to take some money out of the economy permanently. For many gil is meaningless. They can buy ANYTHING on the AH without even blinking. I used to be one of those who looked at the housing prices and thought "damn.. that's like.. all the money I've ever made". Not so much anymore. Everything I do endgame brings in millions a week. Treasure maps, retainer ventures, reselling GC seal items just to eat poetics, selling Materia from expert runs, the list goes on and on.

Our economy is broken. There is no regular removal of meaningful amounts of gil.

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If gil is meaningless, then it does not matter if you lower the cap. Many things get changed in the game and just because you put effort into something does not mean that effort has to be protected all the time. You already got the reward for your effort by having that money, so if you don't have a use for that money, then lowering the cap shouldn't be a problem.

In terms of housing, I do think that's one gil sink that actually makes sense. Considering there are more demand than supply, and it does not look like SE will change the housing system any time soon, they should just tax people who have a house significantly on a monthly basis, based on the size of the plot.

Other than that, again so what if there is no regular removal of gil? If gil is meaningless, then control of market is meaningless too. In fact, fees for repair and teleportation as well as marketboard tax should just be removed.

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Zitat von SenorPatty

I think the reason being from the point of view of wanting gil to have some use. It's like poetics. At some point, there's just nothing you can really do with it except fly to idyllshire, empty your capped poetics on demicrystals then repeat because you've exhausted every possible avenue to use them on.

The game's gil sink is substituted by tomes, so you end up spending less with your own money and you typically use it for the finer things like outfits that other people craft from treasure materials or housing related stuff. But once that's also accomplish, your wallet just increases on its own passively so yeah, I think players who have that throwaway money just want to see it have "active" use so they're motivated to make more. That's my take on it.

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Sure, but I also don't really care about not having a use for poetics. It's one thing if you're forced to specifically farm for poetics/gil, but have no use for them. But if you're getting them passively (as a bonus) while doing contents for other rewards or just for fun, then it shouldn't matter.

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Zitat von linayar

If gil is meaningless, then it does not matter if you lower the cap. Many things get changed in the game and just because you put effort into something does not mean that effort has to be protected all the time. You already got the reward for your effort by having that money, so if you don't have a use for that money, then lowering the cap shouldn't be a problem.

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Remember this when they reduce the limit on something you care about without compensation. I personally don't care about gil, but I would not want someone to remove some of my storage and suddenly all my mats (trash or not) were just gone. If such a cap were to be lowered warning would have to be given, just like tomestones being phased out.

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Zitat von linayar

In terms of housing, I do think that's one gil sink that actually makes sense. Considering there are more demand than supply, and it does not look like SE will change the housing system any time soon, they should just tax people who have a house significantly on a monthly basis, based on the size of the plot.

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Considering a house can be a significant source of income, that's fine. Housing needs some sort of maintenance or sink if it's going to continue to be a limited resource. Especially so that multple houses become a liability instead of something you can just sit on.

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Zitat von linayar

Other than that, again so what if there is no regular removal of gil? If gil is meaningless, then control of market is meaningless too. In fact, fees for repair and teleportation as well as marketboard tax should just be removed.

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"Gil is meaningless" past a point where you have enough to buy everything in the game without making a significant dent in your own funds. Removing ALL gil sinks instead of creating more will exacerbate the problem by creating more and more people with excessive gil amounts. Again.. the system requires a sink for those who have too much not an increase in the cost of playing in general. The problem right now is it has to be heavily expensive.. but not contribute something inequality creating or advantage granting. Also it cannot be something that only the super rich have access too as then it will INCENTIVIZE money hoarding and brew complaints about gating. ... I'm still at a loss as to what that could be.

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Zitat von Krotoan

Remember this when they reduce the limit on something you care about without compensation. I personally don't care about gil, but I would not want someone to remove some of my storage and suddenly all my mats (trash or not) were just gone. If such a cap were to be lowered warning would have to be given, just like tomestones being phased out.

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They already do. They've removed the old tomestones I collected and, while some of them are moved to poetics, others are moved to hunts and I no longer do hunts. Even the conversion they give you means you still lose out on some as it's not a 1-to-1 conversion.

Obviously they should warn people ahead of time to let people decide if they want to do something with their "excess" gil before the cap is lowered. Or just make it so you can't gain more gil until you're below the new cap.

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"Gil is meaningless" past a point where you have enough to buy everything in the game without making a significant dent in your own funds. Removing ALL gil sinks instead of creating more will exacerbate the problem by creating more and more people with excessive gil amounts. Again.. the system requires a sink for those who have too much not an increase in the cost of playing in general. The problem right now is it has to be heavily expensive.. but not contribute something inequality creating or advantage granting. Also it cannot be something that only the super rich have access too as then it will INCENTIVIZE money hoarding and brew complaints about gating. ... I'm still at a loss as to what that could be.

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Again, I'm not seeing the problem with having excessive gil. In fact, the people I usually see having problems with "undercutters" are usually people who would have enough money anyway. So much so, that one common solution is to buy out the competition and resell at higher prices, which would seem to exacerbate the problem of having "excessive gil" if it really was a problem.

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Zitat von linayar

They already do. They've removed the old tomestones I collected and, while some of them are moved to poetics, others are moved to hunts and I no longer do hunts. Even the conversion they give you means you still lose out on some as it's not a 1-to-1 conversion.

Obviously they should warn people ahead of time to let people decide if they want to do something with their "excess" gil before the cap is lowered. Or just make it so you can't gain more gil until you're below the new cap.

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That.. was why I used the example. Because it's what they do already. However considering this has never been done before with anything except tiered tomestone stuff, it'd probably have to be quite a long warning and .. gonna say likely not well received since simply amassing money is some peoples endgame. Just going "ok now you can't have that much" to control Gil is not a great solution. Better to give everyone something to do with that gil.

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Zitat von linayar

Again, I'm not seeing the problem with having excessive gil. In fact, the people I usually see having problems with "undercutters" are usually people who would have enough money anyway. So much so, that one common solution is to buy out the competition and resell at higher prices, which would seem to exacerbate the problem of having "excessive gil" if it really was a problem.

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People who complain about "undercutters" are part of the problem.. not the victims. These are the people who have no output but making more money to make that number bigger because past a certain point that money is just a score. Once you can buy all the stuff, you don't have to worry about being able to afford things and are also not interested in any of the piddling sinks out there because you likely make that just on a invest-craft-sell cycle a day. We need a way to interest those people in spending that crazy surplus so there aren't "superpowers" out there anymore.

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Zitat von Krotoan

That.. was why I used the example.

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Yes, I'm clarifying that tomestone is what I care about, so no reminder is necessary. Change is part of the game. That title you gain after so much hard work with your static could be earned solo in later expansions (ultimate being a happy exception, for now). And of course people will complain about change, just like people will complain about no change.

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People who complain about "undercutters" are part of the problem.. not the victims. These are the people who have no output but making more money to make that number bigger because past a certain point that money is just a score. Once you can buy all the stuff, you don't have to worry about being able to afford things and are also not interested in any of the piddling sinks out there because you likely make that just on a invest-craft-sell cycle a day. We need a way to interest those people in spending that crazy surplus so there aren't "superpowers" out there anymore.

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And that's why we should lower the gil cap, so it'll be less of a score or a "superpower."

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Zitat von linayar

Yes, I'm clarifying that tomestone is what I care about, so no reminder is necessary. Change is part of the game. That title you gain after so much hard work with your static could be earned solo in later expansions (ultimate being a happy exception, for now). And of course people will complain about change, just like people will complain about no change.

And that's why we should lower the gil cap, so it'll be less of a score or a "superpower."

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I'm a personal fan of not taking things away from people to fix problems created by poor forethought. While lowering the gil cap might solve some of the problem, I'm willing to be people will still just spread out their fortunes over alts.

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Zitat von Krotoan

I'm a personal fan of not taking things away from people to fix problems created by poor forethought. While lowering the gil cap might solve some of the problem, I'm willing to be people will still just spread out their fortunes over alts.

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The other alternative I mentioned is to prevent you from getting more gil until you're below the cap. So every gil you've already earned is still there.

As for alts, while it's possible, they haven't made it easy to transfer between alts. And I don't see a problem with that either as every character will have the new cap limit. In fact, to go even further, I'd say make it so your retainers cannot hold gil, so you have to take gil from your retainer before that sale slot is cleared and be usable for another item to sell.

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Zitat von linayar

Again, I'm not seeing the problem with having excessive gil. In fact, the people I usually see having problems with "undercutters" are usually people who would have enough money anyway. So much so, that one common solution is to buy out the competition and resell at higher prices, which would seem to exacerbate the problem of having "excessive gil" if it really was a problem.

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As long as I've been playing the game, people have claimed that the way to combat undercutters is to buy what they're selling and relist it at a higher price.

I have never EVER EVER EVER seen that be effective.

It may have been effective years ago, but nowadays the people who are undercutting are crafters who are doing little else, and bots. Both are just going to replace what you bought at the same price. Because the MB now is a place where certain accounts spend literally all of their time.

And of course the people complaining about undercutters have gil; the people complaining about undercutters are other people trying to sell on the MB in enough quantity that undercutting is an issue. Someone trying to sell a single high priced item is barely going to notice they're being undercut. Someone trying to sell a bunch of different items, and being undercut on all of them by the same people/bot every time, are going to notice.


Instituting a gil cap will do one thing: it'll cause a dramatic influx of bot/alt accounts, which SE has already proven they are largely unwilling to do anything about. They aren't going to stop selling so much, they're just going to find new places to put their money.

I am amazed that people still believing that undercutter must link to the bot fantasy. You got undercutted because the value of item listed is not reflecting the value of market thinks it is. This laughable claims also ignore the fact where you can travel to other realm to buy item then come back to sell on the market board.

For example, you may list an item for 3M but I found same item on other server foe 800k. In this case I have all the bargain power to undercut you as long as item sold is more than 800k then I am profitable. You are forced people to buy an overpriced item but got mad when some one reset it to its actual market price. Really?

Buy low and sell high only works when you are in a closed market but FF14 market is an open market because you can get imports to surprise your domestic, of course it will not works

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Zitat von Divinemights

I am amazed that people still believing that undercutter must link to the bot fantasy. You got undercutted because the value of item listed is not reflecting the value of market thinks it is. This laughable claims also ignore the fact where you can travel to other realm to buy item then come back to sell on the market board.

For example, you may list an item for 3M but I found same item on other server foe 800k. In this case I have all the bargain power to undercut you as long as item sold is more than 800k then I am profitable. You are forced people to buy an overpriced item but got mad when some one reset it to its actual market price. Really?

Buy low and sell high only works when you are in a closed market but FF14 market is an open market because you can get imports to surprise your domestic, of course it will not works

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Most bots are undercutting by a gil, and yes, people do indeed do that. but most REAL people also sleep, eat, do normal human kind of things. they arent on the market 24/7 undercutting by a gil.

as for importer like you, I know who most of the crafters are in my markets, so when you put a name up from another server, I know for a fact I can sell lower than you and I will. you have zero bargain power because I know that I made the item for less than you likely bought it at. so its usually the "importer" that ends up sucking it up for a lower price than they bought it at if the price is brought down low enough. and since the bots will usually undercut me, well, where does that leave you and teh cleverly imported item?

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Zitat von ZattanaWen

Instituting a gil cap will do one thing: it'll cause a dramatic influx of bot/alt accounts, which SE has already proven they are largely unwilling to do anything about. They aren't going to stop selling so much, they're just going to find new places to put their money.

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Well, the character cap won't increase, so you'll still only have 8 per world, 40 per account max. And if they create more accounts, well that's more money for SE I guess.

Also, if they reduce the cap significantly (along with my proposed retainer change), prices would be lower in general since everyone can hold less money anyway.

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Zitat von Divinemights

I am amazed that people still believing that undercutter must link to the bot fantasy. You got undercutted because the value of item listed is not reflecting the value of market thinks it is. This laughable claims also ignore the fact where you can travel to other realm to buy item then come back to sell on the market board.

For example, you may list an item for 3M but I found same item on other server foe 800k. In this case I have all the bargain power to undercut you as long as item sold is more than 800k then I am profitable. You are forced people to buy an overpriced item but got mad when some one reset it to its actual market price. Really?

Buy low and sell high only works when you are in a closed market but FF14 market is an open market because you can get imports to surprise your domestic, of course it will not works

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I don't assume every undercutter is a bot. For the most part I know who most of them on the server are and losers though some may be, they're human losers.

In fact I didn't even know there was such a thing as a marketboard bot until I found one on my server, and only by researching and then observing/experimentation. In this case, the account itself is very clearly a bot running 24/7, and the pattern of consistently timed undercutting/price adjustment as well as the pattern of playtime by the bot and its alts made it abundantly clear it was all bot-run.

Crafter-bot makes the stuff, and 8 alt accounts rotate in and out 24/7 (only ever one at a time, of course) to sell and undercut what crafter-bot makes. Once you know how it works it could not be more obvious.

Oddly enough, Ive made quite hte fortune on the MB, despite the undercutting bots.

It's because bots tend to focus on low effort high demand items. Sell a 1000 units of a 500 gil item and if you have a bot that is constantly monitoring the MB, you can generate a profit. For a real world example of this, look no further than how Amazon Market Place operates. It is the same concept in real life. Competing shops selling hte same item and undercutting one another by pennies if it gets them the 'buy box'. They dont turn out much profit per item (Might even be pittance, like 50 cents a sale), but if you sell 10000 of it, that small pocket change adds up.

Rather, if you want to compete on the MB, stop trying to sell casual items. If you can gather it via a crafter, youre not gnona become ultra wealthy with it right off the bat. But rarer and harder items to come by, like those from Deep Dungeons or High end Crafted Gear, or mounts among other items is where you can generate a good profit. Yuo have to be paying attention to whats out there being sold and putting out a sale price that makes someone think "Gee thats a steal compared to other vendors."

Here's an example - The pegasis mount from PotD may sell for 15 million on some servers, but if you put it up for 13 million, It's likely to get snatched up really damn quickly. Yes, you lose 2 million and you are not min maxing your sales, but such a dramatic price difference lets the common buyer whos got the cash and no patience pick it up asap cause they see that as a huge steal compared to your competitors. You get your 13 mil right then and there, while competitors run the risk of their profits slowly being chipped away at by micro undercutters. To finish this anecdote, I sold mine for a 13 mil price point when the market average was 15.5. After two weeks, the market average was 8 Mil, and many of the vendors who had it at 15 mil were still selling it, but now at 8 and 9 mil price points. I abused other peoples price point to give the impression my sale was a bargain and came out ahead.

This is business 101. The whole idea that you need to not undercut big or stop adjusting your price point is silly. Yeah its a pain when someone undercuts you. Tough. That's how it works and there's nothing you can do to stop that from happening. Use your head, and gamble smartly on how you can push your sales. Taking 13 million upfront is way better than sitting on an item for 3-4 weeks watching the price point get chipped away until the item is half what it was worth at all because you couldnt bear to part with a million gil is silly. And stop blaming bots for not making a profit on the MB. Yeah, bots are an issue, but theyre not so prevalent that there is 0 way for you to make profits. Ive done it, fellow FC members have done it, friends I play with do it. You just have to be savvy about what works and what doesnt. High demand hyper competitive items that are easy to acquire arent gonna net you millions typically, bots or not. Anyways this was a tangent cause I do hate the "Muh Bots are making me poor" spiel that gets touted. Youre not making money on the MB cause of bots. Youre not making money because youre not playing the MB and doing your Homework to find ways to make money.

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Zitat von Melichoir

Oddly enough, Ive made quite hte fortune on the MB, despite the undercutting bots.

It's because bots tend to focus on low effort high demand items. Sell a 1000 units of a 500 gil item and if you have a bot that is constantly monitoring the MB, you can generate a profit. For a real world example of this, look no further than how Amazon Market Place operates. It is the same concept in real life. Competing shops selling hte same item and undercutting one another by pennies if it gets them the 'buy box'. They dont turn out much profit per item (Might even be pittance, like 50 cents a sale), but if you sell 10000 of it, that small pocket change adds up.

....etc.

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The bot on my server isn't selling casual or low-priced items. It's selling every bit of end-game and glam gear there is. NeoIsh, Aesthete, Moonlit, Shinryu, all of it. Even some middling gear that still sells for a fair bit. If it's craftable and historically sells for at least a couple hundred K, this bot is selling it.

You aren't wrong that there are still ways to make money on the MB, but the days of buying materials, crafting them up, and profiting on the item are over. You are now required to gather/source all your own materials to have any hope of profit.

And because at least on my server you pretty much can't sell the high-end gear I described unless you want to live by the MB and undercut every half hour like clockwork, your best bet is to sell the materials. Those will always sell. Not the base materials, the mid-level crafted materials, which everyone hates making.

If I get a Shinryu scale, I'm not crafting it up and selling the item. I'm selling the scale. Because the scale will sell quickly. The item I craft from it will not sell unless I make undercutting my full time job.

You pretty much already solved the issue - The bots are buying the crafting materials, cause you cant effectively bot these fights for hte material itself. So to abuse bots its better to sell the crafted material they cant effectively get. This applies to a bunch of other things in the game. While its a pain, running HoH for the Dodo mount is a huge way to make cash. And while the Glamour weapons are harder to sell overall due to bots, again a heavy undercut can make those move fast enough and itll generate profit despite bots. Remember, there is only so much the bots can actually do in regards to materials. If it costs them 50k to buy materials and craft the item, and you get the item from PotD as a natural drop, you could sell it for 45k and theres nothign bots can do to undercut you cause its a profit loss for them while being more or less a 100% net gain for you. Sucks you cant sell it for millions, sure, but Ill take 45k over nothing.

You cant stop bots (or other people) competing on those grounds, but you can compete and make a decent chunk of change by selling thigns bots cant get, or timing your sales. When a new tier opens up for crafting, selling old crafting mats youve stock piled can generate a ton of profit as people buy that stuff up to not have to deal with things.

But thats the point. Once upon a time yeah gathering stuff and crafting it is how youd make money. Now a days its better to be the material supplier on rarer items. But thats the nature of the beast currently. Even without bots, the likelyhood is the MB wouldve gone this direction anyways, though perhaps at a slower pace.

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Zitat von linayar

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That makes absolutely no sense at all and doesn't relate to my comments. You originally claimed no one can compare FFXIV DLC to any other DLC as no other DLC is FFXIV DLC so the comparison isn't like for like.

I pointed out that's nonsense as by that logic, you can't compare any 2 brands or models of anything, like phones or cars or whatever as they will always be different.

Nothing you have said here negates that. What does quitting the game have to do with that point being valid or not?

Saying people can't compare DLC from different companies as they are not exactly the same is ludicrous.

Every day, people compare things. On here, on YouTube, on TV, in magazines, on other forums, face to face etc. Saying no one can ever compare 2 things that aren't identical is illogical as if 2 things are identical, why would you compare them? You can only compare things that aren't the same and people have been doing it since the human race began. Why would this concept not apply to FFXIV DLC when it applies to anything else in existence?

You CAN compare things that aren't made by the same company and judge if one is better value than the other. This is part of life and people do it everyday in every country. Do you not accept this or are you seriously still claiming that no one is allowed to compare FFXIV DLC prices with other DLC prices as they aren't both FFXIV DLC?

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Zitat von Kes13a

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I never said they were making cash hand over fist. In fact I said the opposite. I think they are throttling sales due to their high prices.

And I never said anywhere I wanted the DLC to be free. Just not so expensive.

Why don't you answer what I say instead of trying to put words into my mouth I didn't say?

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Zitat von Kes13a

well, to be objective, which is to supply facts as opposed to just opinion...

The WoW cash shop, which is another subscription based game with a cash shop for OPTIONAL items

Mounts range from 32 to 38 CAD (doesnt matter how old there are the price has never changed)

appearance change is 19 CAD
race change is 32 CAD
pets/minions are 12.50 CAD.

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That isn't being objective. That's called seeking out and cherry picking one study / example that fits the narrative you want to push, while ignoring hundreds / thousands of examples that don't fit your world-view.

Gaming is full of games that have much cheaper DLC.

If someone offered you £1,000,000 to find 50 examples of games that have cheaper DLC than FFXIV and gave you 24 hours to do it, you're telling me you'd just sit there refreshing the WoW page, wringing your hands that you're going to lose the money?

I'm pretty sure you'd find 50 games and in a lot less time than 24 hours. So just stop with this...

People know what DLC costs and FFXIV is above the norm for what you'd expect to pay.

What's even worse is that you deliberately chose one company with high prices to compare against.

You could have picked The Elder Scrolls Online for example. Its mounts (for PS4) range from $9 to $25 CAD, but (assuming you're telling the truth and WoW is $32 to $38 CAD), you spent a while searching for the dearest DLC you could find to try and push the notion that FFXIV prices are decent.

What I don't understand is why linayar isn't jumping down your throat telling you that you can't compare WoW DLC with FFXIV DLC as they aren't both FFXIV DLC and therefore aren't comparable.

If someone bet you $1000 of your own money they could find 10 games with cheaper DLC than FFXIV would you take that bet? You're confident they'd lose, right? I'm thinking you wouldn't take that bet...

And for the record, 2 companies that over-charge are still over-charging. Same with 3 companies or even 4.

There is a general problem in video games with low content and over-priced merchandise.

Too many loot boxes, too many 'Ultimate' editions, too many remasters and remakes, too many games released with half the content locked behind a paywall.

There is a growing backlash against all of this and people are getting fed up.

I get that in video game communities, especially MMO ones, there are people who would buy a used sock if it came with a picture of a chocobo on it.

But the majority of people just don't feel like that.

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Zitat von JTF-Taru

Gaming is full of games that have much cheaper DLC.

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Sure. Now analyze those games, their associated cash shops and the companies that make the game.

It's not the size or even the quality, of the code for the DLC that is dictating the price. It's the expenses for the company's operations and the company's other sources of revenue to cover those expenses that influence pricing.

Someone who privately owns their small business can charge less than a major corporation that must repay investors.

Someone running a game company out of a basement in Kansas can charge less than the person running the game out of an office in Tokyo. Cost of living, office space, supplies, etc. is much less.

Someone who relies on word of mouth for their publicity/marketing can charge less than someone who's advertising in major media.

Someone who doesn't offer any customer support to resolve problems is going to be able to charge less than someone who does.

You really can't compare value of DLC between games unless you're comparing like games being produced by like companies.

Let's try this again. So...you are angry about the price of something that SE put extra effort into. Granted not all the stuff on Mog is specialty, as some of it is NPC gear but consider that gear has to be adjusted so it is wearable by all races and not just the NPCs it was originally created for. Then there is the actual specialty stuff that was made specifically for glamour. Not as game content but extra design, rendering, etc. Luxury items, as others have called it.

Now I get it. It's a bit pricey for virtual stuff that you never actually get to come home with along with the fact that the game comes with a sub. But people put effort into the Mog items too and their work deserves payment. It's of course up to you to decide whether it's worth your money or not but at the end of the day you get to decided what you are willing to pay for. And right now you've decided that it is not worth it. So... Your argument has been heard. Enjoy your choices?

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Zitat von JTF-Taru

You CAN compare things that aren't made by the same company and judge if one is better value than the other.

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And that's my point. So what are you going to do when you find out another game's DLC is "better value." Quit this game for that other game? If not, then what has your comparison done? Nothing, it's useless.

When you compare two phones, you're choosing between which phone to buy. When you compare two DLCs from two different games, there is no choice to be made since they're from two different games. Better value in another game doesn't translate to the other game.

EXAMPLE:

Right now, WoW made appearance change free, but so what? Unless you play WoW, that won't do anything to you or your FFXIV character. You pay for fantasia if you want to change your FFXIV character. A cheaper service/DLC in another game is meaningless in dictating prices for this game unless you're willing to quit the game over those prices.

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Zitat von JTF-Taru

That isn't being objective. That's called seeking out and cherry picking one study / example that fits the narrative you want to push, while ignoring hundreds / thousands of examples that don't fit your world-view.

Gaming is full of games that have much cheaper DLC.

If someone offered you £1,000,000 to find 50 examples of games that have cheaper DLC than FFXIV and gave you 24 hours to do it, you're telling me you'd just sit there refreshing the WoW page, wringing your hands that you're going to lose the money?

I'm pretty sure you'd find 50 games and in a lot less time than 24 hours. So just stop with this...

People know what DLC costs and FFXIV is above the norm for what you'd expect to pay.

What's even worse is that you deliberately chose one company with high prices to compare against.

You could have picked The Elder Scrolls Online for example. Its mounts (for PS4) range from $9 to $25 CAD, but (assuming you're telling the truth and WoW is $32 to $38 CAD), you spent a while searching for the dearest DLC you could find to try and push the notion that FFXIV prices are decent.

What I don't understand is why linayar isn't jumping down your throat telling you that you can't compare WoW DLC with FFXIV DLC as they aren't both FFXIV DLC and therefore aren't comparable.

If someone bet you $1000 of your own money they could find 10 games with cheaper DLC than FFXIV would you take that bet? You're confident they'd lose, right? I'm thinking you wouldn't take that bet...

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I was comparing comparable items. Both games are subscription based, so the comparison seemed better than your generic "full of games that have much cheaper DLC" without coming up with anything comparable or checkable.

As for why I choose WoW, I play it, so I went there. Elder Scrolls, is not a sub based game. it is Free to play... and their appearance change is usually 1000 Crowns, which works out to around $10. Its also a game where you likely have a few alts and not sure if teh mounts are account wide, but really, they want and need you to spend money on crowns, and people will spend far more in a F2P game than a sub is typically worth.

as for bets etc. I can easily find games with cheaper or more expensive DLC if we are just talking any game online in the industry. personally I would be stupid to take it without conditions such as type of game, is there a subscription, things you are glossing over in your comparisons.

its all very good to come up with a statement, without anything to back it up.

so, as for cherry picking... all I did was picked a similar business model, which you seem loathe to actually consider (and the store is easy access since its on the launcher on my desktop.. no internet searching or hand wringing involved)

If you want a market wide analysis, better be prepared to come at with me with more than low grade insults and vague facts.

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Zitat von JTF-Taru

What I don't understand is why linayar isn't jumping down your throat telling you that you can't compare WoW DLC with FFXIV DLC as they aren't both FFXIV DLC and therefore aren't comparable.

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Because I don't read every post, especially posts by people I'm not having a discussion with. Though I sometimes skim and happen to see things, which leads me to this post.

So now the question is: Do you now understand why they're not comparable unless you're willing to quit one game over the other? Because otherwise, it's silly to say I should "jump down" other people's throat for something you're doing as well.