6.0 Red Mage speculation

I'd prefer if we added rather than took away. I enjoy the Ver[ready] procs. Looking forward to learning more about the upcoming changes. RDM is the one I'm most hopeful for.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Well, a half a real mechanic isn't much, so let's remove it altogether. Surely there are no options whatsoever in the opposite direction."


I believe it doesn't amount to much. I also don't think RNG is the godsend some others may imply. But I disagree that the job gauge, which has only faint backing mechanics at present, would do as well with absolutely no (or only a pretense of) backing mechanics.

If you give me an a better alternative by which to instill depth into RDM, I'd be quick to follow up on it and likely promote it. If your only suggested change is to sweep away what little is present, I will of course challenge that.

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I don't know where you're getting the idea that the only thing I want for RDM is to dump RNG. Nowhere did I ever say anything of the sort, in fact I have consistently argued that in addition to removing RNG the job simply needs more going on for it. Dumping RNG and performing the melee combo on a cooldown similar to the GNB's continuation combo would open up more options for allowing the job gauge to be used on *other things*.

Next time, please ensure you have some clue what someone is actually pushing for before making lame assumptions based on nothing.

Here is the sum total of your posts in this thread, prior to my first response to you:

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

How bad are we gonna get it, y'all? Will they have us fixed up by 6.1 this time or is it gonna be the .2 patch again? Personally I'm hoping we're able to perform our single-target rotation fairly self-sufficiently without going out of MP this time but that might be a bit much to ask.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well actually what happened is you completely missed that the OP is sassy snark about the devs' lack of care put into RDM, and the MP part itself was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the terrible state the job was in on ShB release.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Still waiting for the legendary Vermedica.:p

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I've actually been advocating for a continuation-type skill that you can use during your melee combo. I like the idea of having a button similar to GNB's continuation that does two things:

1) It performs a powerful oGCD melee attack in-between melee steps

2) It channels the b/w mana gauge spent on enchanted melee combo steps into a secondary job gauge which is used to perform a powerful finisher melee attack at the end.

For example

Melee 1 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Melee 1 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Melee 3 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Verflare/holy + Melee finisher + double-weaved oGCD > Scorch + 2 double-weaved oGCDs

Maybe the melee finisher could be a DoT. Or, alternatively, instead of a melee finisher the new 2nd job gauge could produce a major damage buff for the next few spells. That might be neat.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Fix embolden please.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Don't forget scorch II at level 90, because why actually do interesting things with the job when you can just tack another spell onto the end of the melee combo again.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I tend to consider all the casters to be pretty similar in movement overall, but that they represent different approaches to mobility. For example, BLM feels like a turret but a skilled player of the class knows that it has a ton of options you can use for on-demand movement. Similarly, RDM seems very mobile, but its mobility is more restricted in terms of when you can/must utilize it, and that tends to produce two very different playstyles. Then you have SMN, who is almost an aberration because you don't *technically* need to even hardcast anything at all in order to perform your DPS rotation (although playing that way will definitely result in a major DPS loss, it doesn't actually interfere with your class mechanics).

Personally, I enjoy RDM's playstyle the most.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I can get behind this tbh. Remove the dumb RNG, make our melee combo a 30-second cooldown or whatever (the actual numbers matter less right now than the concept anyway), and give us something new and interesting to do with the job gauge. I think I'd be happy with that but we'd have to see how the actual implementation turns out.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

RNG procs for verfire and verstone do not add anything worthy of note to the job, and in any case, I was a RDM fan before FFXIV was even a concept in anyone's mind so no thank you I will play the job I like while advocating for changes I want. You're welcome to deal with it however you like, but that's not changing.

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Across them, you have advocated for one and only one new even vaguely gauge-related mechanic (see bold emphasis [mine] above), and that mechanic does not in any way provide an alternative to the base gauge gameplay; it instead tacks on an altogether separate minor gameplay loop, leaving, if your other suggestions were acted upon, the base and existing kit of RDM effectively gutted.

My "assumptions" are based on your post history in this thread, in its entirety. I cannot read your mind. If I and those who have argued against parts of your suggestions are therefore clueless, perhaps you should actually provide more than the scantest clues as to what you're thinking in regard to those concrete suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I can get behind this tbh. Remove the dumb RNG, make our melee combo a 30-second cooldown or whatever (the actual numbers matter less right now than the concept anyway), and give us something new and interesting to do with the job gauge. I think I'd be happy with that but we'd have to see how the actual implementation turns out.

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I support Katie_Kitty's idea. If we have a series of 3-4 buttons that are always pushed in the same order at the same time, they are not genuinely 3-4 separate abilities. They are 1 ability and can be 1 button. This would free up space for more cool actions without deleting existing ones.

The Rogue's 1st ability is called Spinning Edge & it involves using 2 slashes. Would it really be 2 different actions if the 1st action was called Spinning with 1 slash & a 2nd ability was called Edge with 1 slash and they were always used together in that exact order?

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Originally Posted by NYCLouisGamer

I support Katie_Kitty's idea. If we have a series of 3-4 buttons that are always pushed in the same order at the same time, they are not genuinely 3-4 separate abilities. They are 1 ability and can be 1 button. This would free up space for more cool actions without deleting existing ones.

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I, too, like that part of it. The less bloat, the better.

That said, I would like to first see if there's anything that can make those 3 buttons be worth having as separate buttons, as we can't so easily undo that change. (Any change perceived as "QoL", no matter how detrimental to actual engagement, is very, very difficult to remove.)

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Personally, I'd like to see more melee interaction on RDM. However, I feel that simply converting the base kit (or "combo") from a spender to a CD that in turn builds up a new spender is insufficient and would make RDM feel unsatisfactory for an even larger portion of its level span.

It wouldn't be much worse, mind you, but it occludes a fundamental issue by simply slapping a coat of QoL and "new feature!" paint on top of it, while still leaving it (even more) gut-less. I'd rather deal with that fundamental issue as directly and comprehensively as possible.

For me, that issue is two-fold:

1. It's a "Chekov's Gun" issue. If you give a caster a sword, then no matter how wastefully ornamentally its previous iterations may previously had made it, the sword should be meaningfully used.
   
   
2. The sword, at present, is an additional liability (unique among casters), rather than a unique advantage.

   While what may be seen as a unique weakness from one side of the coin can meaningfully direct job design or playflow, if you deliberately attach some cross-over element to a given role base, one would assume it an advantage, rather than a fetter.
   
   Yet, that's not how melee elements play out on RDM presently. Rather than being some caster-fighter that can all the more easily adjust with the flow of a fight, or the like, it's uniquely hampered with the least consecutive mobility except in the same brief window into which it is forced into melee range. The melee portion is not bankable enough to exploit its trade-off favorably and thus be a unique affordance. It instead, in practice, just gives it an additional weakness.
   
   Or, put more simply, our single-target melee kit is presently little more than a bloated Foul that forces us into melee range.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

a bloated Foul that forces us into melee range.

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:eek: That description is perfect. Put it in your signature! lol

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Originally Posted by SkyCake

I want "VerEsuna" or whatever. Healers really hate pressing Esuna and I don't mind doing it for them. I'm like half-joking. Ha.

Wouldn't mind upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II in the same way Verholy and Verflare work. Maybe a new sword AoE for a one-two combo into it. The idea would be to Veraero II/Verthunder II > Impact > maybe until like 60 mana > Enchanted Moulinet > Enchanted [new combo finisher] > VerHoly II / VerFlare II. Maybe that's a bit too samey relative to the single-target rotation. I personally don't like spamming Enchanted Moulinet to spend mana and would welcome any change to that.

I think it would make make Manafication more interesting/fun for me, too. I dislike using Manafication in AoE situations because the end result of that is really just more Enchanted Moulinets. With an actual AoE combo, its function in AoE would be similar in that you would use it to either get to the "enchanted" part of the AoE more quickly or to keep the chain going. Similar end results, just more fun since it wouldn't mean more Enchanted Moulinets but rather an extra VerHoly II or VerFlare II.

I would also like Acceleration to be useful in AoE. I'm not sure how without making it kind of boring. But, just a slight increase to mana gain on Veraero II and Verthunder II would be fine. I don't want AoE versions of Verstone or Verfire. I'm sure there is a more creative answer to this.

So! One new ability in the new AoE sword combo, upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II that don't take up space on the hotbar, and some tweaks to numbers and existing abilities to accommodate. And, maybe VerEsuna...

Edit: I just want anything besides "Spam Enchanted Moulinet 5 times". The joke towards healers aside, I really like RDM's non-DPS abilities. VerEsuna would just be a minor increase to that and be in the same vein as Vercure. Something you pretty much never use, but feels nice when it works.

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I honestly agree with all of that, and you brought up some good points I hadn't thought of, eg. regarding the acceleration/AoE mismatch. I think a vershield would be cool too (someone mentioned earlier about adding "water" type abilities, which could fit into that?) and I've been wanting versuna to come back for a while. I feel like we used to have it at one point? I love RDM being the "useful" class that can kind of be anything that is needed. A shield would really play into that. Right now the most mitigation we have is Addle (or vercure, if you have a very loose definition of "mitigation" lol).

I wonder if the upgrade to moulinet would look something like the ability we saw in 5.55 MSQ (to try & put it without spoilers). I think an AOE finisher would be nice as well.

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Originally Posted by LunettaK

I honestly agree with all of that, and you brought up some good points I hadn't thought of, eg. regarding the acceleration/AoE mismatch. I think a vershield would be cool too (someone mentioned earlier about adding "water" type abilities, which could fit into that?) and I've been wanting versuna to come back for a while. I feel like we used to have it at one point? I love RDM being the "useful" class that can kind of be anything that is needed. A shield would really play into that. Right now the most mitigation we have is Addle (or vercure, if you have a very loose definition of "mitigation" lol).

I wonder if the upgrade to moulinet would look something like the ability we saw in 5.55 MSQ (to try & put it without spoilers). I think an AOE finisher would be nice as well.

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I'm glad someone liked the ideas! I was surprised that my joke towards VerEsuna received pushback. But, I was also told that jobs should be boring because dungeons are boring. So, I don't really understand these forums anyways. Honestly, anything done to the AoE portion of RDM would be great in my eyes. I would also love if Acceleration was included into AoE even if my idea for its inclusion wasn't very creative at all.

As someone else brought up, we had Erase. A role ability for casters. It didn't work like Esuna, so I'm not really sure what their point was. I think they, like me, was just joking though. Ideally, if RDM were to get VerEsuna then we would get it before Endwalker as well. Before Vercure even since I think it could be nice as a "light-step" towards introducing RDMs to the idea of using non-DPS abilities.

I was going to post a picture, but I'm not sure if pictures with names are allowed. The idea of the joke for VerEsuna comes from a picture I took with all four of us having a 20s paralyze debuff that the healer didn't feel like using Esuna for. It looked pretty funny as we took a couple of steps, paralyzed, took a couple steps, paralyzed. I couldn't help but think how nice it would be to slap out some VerEsunas during that. It wouldn't have made a huge difference and we were out-of-combat. Still would have felt nice. I think maybe I spent too much time play a Shaman in WoW in the earlier days, so minor things like that appeal to me.

I'm just excited for any potential RDM additions and enjoy talking about them. Fun to brainstorm!

Edit: So many typos! Sorry. This post was made pre-tea. I think it comes off as more negative or even defensive than I intended, too. I've enjoyed reading through the thread and seeing others' ideas and speculations.

6.0

Raise-ga .....an aoe rez ..... j/k

ST rotation is already set in stone anything more is asking for trouble , OGCDS we have 2 already 1 aoe 1 st and we use them on CD ...

maybe a skill that makes melee chain free of cast (0 black white mana cost) perfect for openers or a skill that instantly gives 50+ x/y mana?

i would like verXXX II potency updates , and moulinet upgraded

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

6.0

maybe a skill that makes melee chain free of cast (0 black white mana cost) perfect for openers or a skill that instantly gives 50+ x/y mana?

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This would be great actually.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

maybe a skill that makes melee chain free of cast (0 black white mana cost) perfect for openers or a skill that instantly gives 50+ x/y mana?

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Let's spend all these buttons to make mechanic X.

Then let's spend another button to fully un-make mechanic X even though we already have other buttons specifically to do what this extra button is meant to do while remaining involved and cohesive with the buttons spent on mechanic X.

???

If it's so awful to open as RDM in the way it has for two expansions... mightn't we just raise the resting gauge level, lower the melee chain cost (thereby making melee at least a bit less of a trivial tag-along to the sword-wielding caster), or have Embolden double gauge generation, etc.? Why spend a button solely to make Manification, Acceleration, and the like redundant?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Let's spend all these buttons to make mechanic X.

Then let's spend another button to fully un-make mechanic X even though we already have other buttons specifically to do what this extra button is meant to do while remaining involved and cohesive with the buttons spent on mechanic X.

???

If it's so awful to open as RDM in the way it has for two expansions... mightn't we just raise the resting gauge level, lower the melee chain cost (thereby making melee at least a bit less of a trivial tag-along to the sword-wielding caster), or have Embolden double gauge generation, etc.? Why spend a button solely to make Manification, Acceleration, and the like redundant?

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There would obviouly be a really long cd for this. This is like complaining GNB has bloodfest. Why get 2 cartridges for free when you generate one during regular melee combo. Or perfect balance on old monk.

This would be good for openers and it doesn’t really invalidate the uses for the other skills you mentioned. Or am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

?

There would obviouly be a really long cd for this. This is like complaining GNB has bloodfest. Why get 2 cartridges for free when you generate one during regular melee combo. Or perfect balance on old monk.

This would be good for openers and it doesn’t really invalidate the uses for the other skills you mentioned. Or am I missing something here?

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My major concern with a "use melee combo for free" button is that our opener is already weave-saturated. There are no open windows until after E.Zwerchhau or E.Redoublement, neither of which is a good time for a free melee combo button. The earliest it could be used with the current opener is after Scorch, by which time party buffs have fallen off or are falling off.

If we refactored the opener so that the free melee combo button came near the beginning, it would then push the second melee combo from Manafying later, further out of the party burst window. In either case, one of the two melee combos in the opener would be out of the party burst.

Whether this would be worth it or not would depend on how a 28|07 gain from a free melee combo affects how mana lines up with later Manafication availability compared to the rotation without it. If we could still use Manafication immediately on availability, this might be fine. If we would have to delay Manafication to accommodate a mana deficiency, and thus not actually gain an extra combo through the use of the free combo button, it would probably not.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

My major concern with a "use melee combo for free" button is that our opener is already weave-saturated. There are no open windows until after E.Zwerchhau or E.Redoublement, neither of which is a good time for a free melee combo button. The earliest it could be used with the current opener is after Scorch, by which time party buffs have fallen off or are falling off.

If we refactored the opener so that the free melee combo button came near the beginning, it would then push the second melee combo from Manafying later, further out of the party burst window. In either case, one of the two melee combos in the opener would be out of the party burst.

Whether this would be worth it or not would depend on how a 28|07gain from a free melee combo affects how mana lines up with later Manafication availability compared to the rotation without it. If we could still use Manafication immediately on availability, this might be fine. If we would have to delay Manafication to accommodate a mana deficiency, and thus not actually gain an extra combo through the use of the free combo button, it would probably not.

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Aah I see, well maybe there will be other skills that will affect mana in Endwalker, we'll see :)

Could have a secondary ressource built up by melee combo, finishers, scorch, reprise and moulinet, used to weave a quick strike in melee range with an ephemereal crystal blade made from the crystal foci. Kind of like Alisaie's original sword. This is basically one of the Samurai's kenki spender, but well.

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

This is like complaining GNB has bloodfest. Why get 2 cartridges for free when you generate one during regular melee combo. Or perfect balance on old monk.

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No, the idea given would be like a skill that removes cartridge requirements for the next 20 seconds but prevents you from using more than 4 cartridge spenders in that time when you already have Bloodfest, or instantly grants max Greased Lightning... when you already have Perfect Balance.

You have Acceleration. You have Manafication. You do not need yet another ability, let alone one which would force delays on Acceleration and Manafication casts, just to manage what the others already manage.

If the ramp-up is so crippling, then just deal with it in a way that does not require button bloat. Having Black/White Magic passively ramp up to 30/30 over time (and enter any instance and revive in any trial or raid already at 30/30), for instance, would already accomplish that.

New spell from the Benchmark:

https://i.imgur.com/T8MXrDH.png

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Originally Posted by Rongway

New spell from the Benchmark:

https://i.imgur.com/T8MXrDH.png

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Edit: NVM for some reason thought this was meant to be the BRD ability

On topic, it looks like an ogcd?... maybe similar to fleche and contre sixte?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0/Red_Mage.gif

It's a single cast, doesn't seem part of a dual spell. Maybe it's an upgrade to Verthunder? Cast times doesn't seem to be consistent with gameplay, shown with Alphinaud casting an AoE healing spell in less than a second. I suppose showing the actual long casting times would disrupt the quick action pace of the trailer.

Huh, I blinked and missed that since it just looked like our regular cast. Interesting.

Looks like it could be ice. maybe a verblizzard?

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Originally Posted by Raikai

On topic, it looks like an ogcd?... maybe similar to fleche and contre sixte?

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0/Red_Mage.gif

It's a single cast, doesn't seem part of a dual spell. Maybe it's an upgrade to Verthunder? Cast times doesn't seem to be consistent with gameplay, shown with Alphinaud casting an AoE healing spell in less than a second. I suppose showing the actual long casting times would disrupt the quick action pace of the trailer.

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Originally Posted by Septonyte

Looks like it could be ice. maybe a verblizzard?

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I agree with GrimGale in that it's definitely a Spell.

I don't think it's ice at all. I'd sooner guess Verburst because it looks like lightning. Here are some frames form the 1440p video:

https://i.imgur.com/yPU77nP.png
https://i.imgur.com/TRqsb0k.png
https://i.imgur.com/BBcWLbW.png
https://i.imgur.com/CFi2IAH.png

Apparently, in an additional Q&A segment of the 14 Hour Stream Yoshi-P was asked about some sort of quicker start ability for RDM since we don't really have solid access to an opener like everyone else does. And YoshiP agreed and said he'd be taking it to the dev in charge of the job.

I don't know why, but I hadn't really thought too much about that before. Probably because I don't do a lot of the hardcore single target content in the game I guess. Anyway, it wasn't something on my original list of additions/improvements but that would definitely be a nice upgrade.

Just to add more information, in the benchmark the RDM casts another spell after this new lightning based spell. It looks like Verfire. Interesting enough, this new lightning spell doesn't seem to trigger Dual Cast, rather it might just grant Verfire ready at a 100% rate.

If what the previous post said is true, it might indeed be a spell unique to RDM openers, allowing for immediate cast of Verfire after you precast this new lightning spell.

The visual effect stays on for quite a while, this would make me think of a DoT or a really big thing like Impact

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

The visual effect stays on for quite a while, this would make me think of a DoT or a really big thing like Impact

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It seems to last about as long as Scorch, so that doesn't mean anything. It could just be like a Fire IV.

I mean, the most likely thing is that there's a trait that upgrades Veraero and Verthunder to Veraero III and Verthunder III, and nothing more complicated than that, with things like casting time and such being scuffed because it's a demo, cause that's not a normal cast time even for a short cast.

Maybe, though the casting sfx on the sword doesn't look like the one for black magic. It looks cleaner, more radiant.