Revelations from Patch 5.2

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Honestly, the whole Qitari storyline is probably going to end up revealing that it was "Both" options in the reality things.

From how I see the Qitari storyline, the actual history is that it was both options but at a certain order of events which I am only guessing...

1st choice) The Good option happened first but at some point in their service thing changed to the Bad option.

2nd choice) the Bad option happened first due to lack of understanding but then the Good option happened once they got to know each other.

In the reality of things (from how I see it), both son and father are both right but due to lack of resources to restore both Historical records we are forced to choose which part of the actual history they should remember.

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The problem is even that is more nuanced than what we get from father and son.

Again, my issue is not that the father takes a pessimistic view of history, and the son takes an optimistic view. It's that they take their respective views because that's what they want to convey to people now, rather than what they actually think happened.

Reading the justifications from both father and son (the father more so), they're both trying to present an interpretation of history that is intended to push their own broader philosophies. Taking the Viis encounter stela as an example, the father says that he prefers the interpretation that the Viis and Qitari had a bad first meeting, because that would make their current good relations "more meaningful". Not because some small detail in the discovered stela implied that interpretation, or he had corroborating evidence; just that his reading would fit his worldview better.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I was leery about the whole thing, at first, but...

I felt a bit better about it when the following quest mentioned that after I'd made my decision, further excavations provided evidence to support the claim I'd chosen. So, it's not that I'm creating a false history for the Qitari, but rather that I have super intuition, able to piece together amazingly accurate predictions from small amounts of evidence. The history is real, but SE has given the player a choice as to WHICH history is real. Essentially, the player is being given a chance to help write the backstory for the Qitari.

I can understand this sitting wrong with some people. To lore-minded folks, this might look like the writers don't really care - that the "real, true" history of the Qitari is so unimportant that they're willing to let the players decide what they want. I don't see it that way, but I could see where others might.

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The bad thing is they say this no matter what choice you do. This was probably to not make people feel bad for their choice but in the end both cant be real. I really wished we could have gone a neutral way or maybe "let us decide later when we have more information" way..

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Honestly, the whole Qitari storyline is probably going to end up revealing that it was "Both" options in the reality things.

From how I see the Qitari storyline, the actual history is that it was both options but at a certain order of events which I am only guessing...

1st choice) The Good option happened first but at some point in their service thing changed to the Bad option.

2nd choice) the Bad option happened first due to lack of understanding but then the Good option happened once they got to know each other.

In the reality of things (from how I see it), both son and father are both right but due to lack of resources to restore both Historical records we are forced to choose which part of the actual history they should remember.

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If they wanted to tie both of them together, this would be the best way to do it. It shows that there's a grey area to everything. People can be cruel, people can be nice. Circumstances can change, and those change how we interact with people.

Another Qitari rep quest later and oh look how convenient that all the evidence happens to support the choice you picked. What a farce. No doubt they're just twisting the facts to fit their conclusion anyway.

Qitari /10char

I liked Quinfort's idea of an ancient underground Namazu kingdom the most lol

I do wonder at what point we'll move on from the stelae; the patch trailer showed a Qitari at the big egg/fruit by Lake Tusi Mekta, and it started glowing.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Another Qitari rep quest later and oh look how convenient that all the evidence happens to support the choice you picked. What a farce. No doubt they're just twisting the facts to fit their conclusion anyway.

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Isn't that the case with most history? - Science too. People form theories but then later researches change. Who is to say that wouldn't be the case with future Generations? They're a pretty short lived species so I can't exactly be upset about this quest line.

Look at Dinosaurs and Human Evolution :P
There was A LOT of political backlash on Human Evolution (I don't mean just the religious aspects - even science had their own set of politics with data theory)

New Qitari quest

And now we kinda choose if the Qitari were responsible for the Namazu to die or not.

I guess I also understood why it annoys me so much. Every choice we do decreases the chances to get more information about that time and about those people in the story. Because each information would have to be written with our choices in mind since we are the one that discovered the past. If they had made one at the beginning and the rest will happen according to that they might still write around it. But now people can choose it with each single one. They can be 100% positive and thus a whole beast tribe survives or they can be completely negative and the story of the Qitari is kinda bitter. Or they can even choose wildly between that. I think its kinda a big deal if one tribe died because of the actions of the Qitari or not. That is not easily written different.

It also makes it harder to talk about the lore because there is no 100% truth to it. Everyone has their own outcome and everyone is right in theirs but also wrong because others got other "truths".

Honestly I wished they would not have done it. It does not make the story better for me.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Isn't that the case with most history? - Science too. People form theories but then later researches change. Who is to say that wouldn't be the case with future Generations? They're a pretty short lived species so I can't exactly be upset about this quest line.

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Because as far as they (and we know) its the only left source of information about their past. With dinosaurs you might be able to find more hidden around the world (and yet that is even not guaranteed because a lot is destroyed). Here there is only that one continent left and seemingly the woods are the place where they lived. There is probably nearly a 0% chance to collect more that are also showing exactly that situation.

Maybe they should have let us see the stones and then we would have a convinient echo vision and see the past which is the reason why the serpent want us to decide..because we have the tool to look at the past.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

New Qitari quest

Because as far as they (and we know) its the only left source of information about their past. With dinosaurs you might be able to find more hidden around the world (and yet that is even not guaranteed because a lot is destroyed). Here there is only that one continent left and seemingly the woods are the place where they lived. There is probably nearly a 0% chance to collect more that are also showing exactly that situation.

Maybe they should have let us see the stones and then we would have a convinient echo vision and see the past which is the reason why the serpent want us to decide..because we have the tool to look at the past.

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That's the key here "as far as we know" I understand from a lore point this may be annoying, but history is almost always told by the winners. That history changes as later generations come back and research it, and can change again.

What I'm saying is that the beast tribe isn't just about "accurate history" it could be later - who knows. I've already past the newest part you just did (since beast tribe resets are at a later time and can technically pick up the quests and hold 3 but anyways). The whole part of the MSQ was also giving some kind of insight about history as well specially with the Ronkan scene.

The only difference is we happen to be witness to it and to a degree we "change it" because of our choices. This history would have been written anyway without our agency.

With Dinosaurs you mentioning about 1 area and them being the only place to find it STILL applies here. We may never have all the information of various species that have come and gone. That's just how life is.

I stopped viewing it as a point in being extremely accurate as it's just coming across that the real lesson as how history is just told. I mean even with the NPCs dialog - we take it as fact because they spoke it (in EVERY scenario - not just this beast tribe). From that standpoint it's actually gotten me to appreciate and enjoy the beast tribe a bit more seeing it from that aspect.

..and that's why the dialogue when we see

Tiuna's tomb

is truly special.

About a certain Eden fight

Yesterday I have read a reddit post and honestly I agree with it. The shiva fight was not only strange to me because I see no good reason why Ryne needed to be in that much danger and that Urianger even agreed with it..and I also did not like that it was her face on all of that or that Gaia swooped in to save her..

But the biggest disappointment was that this robbed us of any nice drama with Ysayle. People have speculated before that this fight would probably be a gut punch because they would probably do something with her and maybe even Haurchefant. Instead we have Ryne taking over that and it took all of the sadness away. The only primal fight where we truly had some connections to it and we got it exchanged for that.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The problem is even that is more nuanced than what we get from father and son.

Again, my issue is not that the father takes a pessimistic view of history, and the son takes an optimistic view. It's that they take their respective views because that's what they want to convey to people now, rather than what they actually think happened.

Reading the justifications from both father and son (the father more so), they're both trying to present an interpretation of history that is intended to push their own broader philosophies. Taking the Viis encounter stela as an example, the father says that he prefers the interpretation that the Viis and Qitari had a bad first meeting, because that would make their current good relations "more meaningful". Not because some small detail in the discovered stela implied that interpretation, or he had corroborating evidence; just that his reading would fit his worldview better.

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I believe that is part of the point for this Beast tribe quest storyline being History is not writen through actual events but by people's views of or needs about those Events supported by what certain amount of information they can find and/or choose to make public.

The focus on this Beast Tribe storyline is not about finding the Actual History but it is about how History is writen by the people who record it. We can never know the actual history about what happened during those times because we are not alive during those days nor there even if it was recent events thus the result of what is remember in history is given to the people who chosen to write it or report it to the people alive today.

The things they write in records for future and current generation to remember can be changed, misinterpreted, and/or altered to fit a person's own beliefs, needs, and/or limited information.

Heck the History we know ourselves as we grew up in the place we live in today may change as well if new information about the past events are found or they may not even if those information are found due to people choosing to make that knowledge public to give us more pieces of the actual or what they interpreted it in history or keep it a secret for REASONS.

The other part, well it relates to the MSQ in a way about how the New Life created by Hydaelyn can't "remember" their past properly and even if they remember it is through only selective interpretations which we see a lot through the MSQ since 2.0.

Garleans and the Echo

Knowing what we now know about the Echo, that it's a limited reawakening of a sundered ancient's power, is anyone else curious about what this implies regarding Garleans? From what I can gather, it is possible for some Garleans to manipulate aether and maybe gain the Echo, but it's extremely rare. Does the fact that Garleans can't typically have the Echo imply that they are almost all "new" souls and not sundered ancients? Or does their inability to manipulate aether block them from the Echo? Has it ever actually been explained why they're unable to manipulate aether? It seems like there's some missing information in there that could be very interesting.

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Originally Posted by WrenElessedil

Garleans and the Echo

Knowing what we now know about the Echo, that it's a limited reawakening of a sundered ancient's power, is anyone else curious about what this implies regarding Garleans? From what I can gather, it is possible for some Garleans to manipulate aether and maybe gain the Echo, but it's extremely rare. Does the fact that Garleans can't typically have the Echo imply that they are almost all "new" souls and not sundered ancients? Or does their inability to manipulate aether block them from the Echo? Has it ever actually been explained why they're unable to manipulate aether? It seems like there's some missing information in there that could be very interesting.

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I've always viewed the echo and more general aether manipulation as rather distinct categories.

Partially, I think, because even those who can manipulate aether still have to learn how to do it, while the echo mostly just 'is'. Zenos has taken his artificial echo further, but it seems just having it is enough to unlock the basics like understanding languages and getting glimpses of peoples pasts.

I don't think it would necessarily be any rarer in Garleans than in any other population.

Trying to remember if Hydrus said anything about it back at the Warring Triad. I know he was all about protecting echo users, but can't remember if he mentioned anything specific about Garleans.

That starshower scene outside the tower:

Did everyone hear hydealyn during the starshower?

I'd been working on the assumption that most people were not sundered ancients, instead being descended from the new life that was seeded after the planet was stabilized. Sometimes people would end up being born with a chunk of ascian soul reincarnated from the lifestream, but for the most part I thought the ancient and the new were basically separate.
Hence Emet being pretty chill about the idea of killing everyone after the rejoinings are done. I'd have expected him to have some slight doubts if the plan was to sacrifice a bunch of newly fixed ancients.

If everyone heard hydealyn though, wouldn't that imply everyone was there at the fall? And therefore everyone used to be an ancient?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

[HB]
That starshower scene outside the tower:

Did everyone hear hydealyn during the starshower?

I'd been working on the assumption that most people were not sundered ancients, instead being descended from the new life that was seeded after the planet was stabilized. Sometimes people would end up being born with a chunk of ascian soul reincarnated from the lifestream, but for the most part I thought the ancient and the new were basically separate.
Hence Emet being pretty chill about the idea of killing everyone after the rejoinings are done. I'd have expected him to have some slight doubts if the plan was to sacrifice a bunch of newly fixed ancients.

If everyone heard hydealyn though, wouldn't that imply everyone was there at the fall? And therefore everyone used to be an ancient?

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Well my pure speculation on this

We know now that the starshower triggers a memory of the final days but that not everybody gets the echo from it. It of course could mean that everyone else is a new born soul. Or it could simply mean that it only happens to those from Amaurotine. There were more cities in the ancient world but Amaurotine was the last to be destroyed and the one that witnessed the end of the world. IMO a lot or maybe even all people are from ancient times but those without the echo are simply souls that died before the final days thus it does not trigger anything.

Emet does not care because he simply does not see us as alive. Maybe its his way of trying to tell himself that what he does it good or maybe he truly believes it but it does not matter. At the end they planned to sacrifice recompleted souls anyways..which would include echo users too thus Ancient ones. They seemingly only care about those that sacrificed themselves to Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by WrenElessedil

Garleans and the Echo

Knowing what we now know about the Echo, that it's a limited reawakening of a sundered ancient's power, is anyone else curious about what this implies regarding Garleans? From what I can gather, it is possible for some Garleans to manipulate aether and maybe gain the Echo, but it's extremely rare. Does the fact that Garleans can't typically have the Echo imply that they are almost all "new" souls and not sundered ancients? Or does their inability to manipulate aether block them from the Echo? Has it ever actually been explained why they're unable to manipulate aether? It seems like there's some missing information in there that could be very interesting.

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Some of this is explained, some of it is not.

As Aulus mal Asina exposits in one Stormblood cutscene (specifically right after Fordola's Resonance procedure), Garleans' general inability to manipulate aether is tied to genetics. It's not stated that no Garleans can use magicks, but those that can do so are so rare as to be never seen in the field. (Most Imperial mages are conscripts.)

As for the Echo, as it's tied to the soul, theoretically there could be Garlean Echo users... but in the Garlean Empire they are considered no better than beastmen (or at least were, under Solus' / Emet-Selch's rule) and probably purged as soon as they came up. Not helping is the very specific trigger it takes to awaken the power.

Qitari Sworn Quest:

I can't believe this quest

involved filthy rats and sickness being purged.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...tdf1o1_500.png

Today's Qitari (Sworn)

It's interesting that even when you choose the nice option the Namazu still ended up being driven out of the forest for not worshiping Ronka's gods. For a nation that seemed pretty accepting of other people that's a curious decision.

Qitari stellae. Which one do you like better?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...95/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Today's Qitari (Sworn)

It's interesting that even when you choose the nice option the Namazu still ended up being driven out of the forest for not worshiping Ronka's gods. For a nation that seemed pretty accepting of other people that's a curious decision.

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The Namazu

stole the Qiqirn Beast Tribe quests in Stormblood, so the Qiqirn stole their lives in Shadowbringers...

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Qitari stellae. Which one do you like better?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...95/unknown.png

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Qitari beast tribe

I choose a mix going son -> father -> son or blue -> red -> blue.

History has both good and bad and I actually feel a mix of these is better than had I taken a full side, though with every pathway being 'correct' it does feel hollow, least we have 2 parts that is consistent throughout Namazu are driven from Ronka and glory be to the Scree!

So still pondering from before...

I forgot to mention about my musings about Hythlodaeus that apparently the 5.2 dungeon seems to have a lot to do with his position? Also the line about the Elidibus - could be "he never became the core" or that I still think that Hythlodaeus has some involvement with one or both of the primals since he is the Architect. I highly doubt he just didn't know

Her line about the Elidibus struck me for two different routes.

Elidibus didn't become the core (as stated prior) which may be why the Ascians became tempered. (Someone may have passed on the idea of using someone as a core?)
Elidibus did become the core and was replaced - and it was someone they respected (the former Elidibus from what it seems like). Emet definitely didn't seem to care for the current one. So it IS rather interesting she would ponder that.

Why record themselves if the sundering would happen? Was the recording on purpose?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

So still pondering from before...

I forgot to mention about my musings about Hythlodaeus that apparently the 5.2 dungeon seems to have a lot to do with his position? Also the line about the Elidibus - could be "he never became the core" or that I still think that Hythlodaeus has some involvement with one or both of the primals since he is the Architect. I highly doubt he just didn't know.

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Sadly, I fear Hythlodaeus, as interesting as a character he has the potential to be (have been?), seems to be one of those 'one-time plot-exposition device' characters. So even if it makes sense for him to be involved in some way shape or form in regards to the 'Will of the Star' projects, I am not hopeful for him to be incorporated any deeper into the story. :(

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Sadly, I fear Hythlodaeus, as interesting as a character he has the potential to be (have been?), seems to be one of those 'one-time plot-exposition device' characters. So even if it makes sense for him to be involved in some way shape or form in regards to the 'Will of the Star' projects, I am not hopeful for him to be incorporated any deeper into the story. :(

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Honestly who knows, it's not the first time we've had characters return when we didn't necessarily "need" them to.

That said - Yoshi did want us to take a look at the surroundings of the dungeon so took some screenshots and will upload what I got from the dungeons will post later so I can show comparisons. - but you can see the ones I took of the new dungeon here. https://imgur.com/a/SlyPtLT

So what I'm seeing besides the fact that this is obviously an existing relic of the Ancients. Is the fact that we're repeating our building methods making you wonder who is "reborn" with the same kind of construction sense.
Basically in the story Elidibus kind of force awakened Echo in the Crystarium. So I went back and looked at the MSQ dungeon. It's pretty much similar structures though for a different purpose are re-used assets of the Crytarium. Which is fascinating. Like I said it's easier way in terms of development to finish dungeons. That and society tends to build the same way due to environment, and culture. But if it's not a coincidence that's a fun Easter egg tbh

https://i.imgur.com/INVuKVf.png

The stairs to the last boss is the same kind of pathway that leads to the Hortorium and The Trivium

That said it's not a match for match, they just have enough to remind you of the Crystarium.
Obviously this is done to house concepts...and in these screenshots there's a LOT of concepts and crystals.

(Surface Slap)(Momora Mora)

MSQ

Goodness gracious those empty holes in the fishing log are so disgusting to look at.

It's always fascinating to hear about what kinds of dreams other people have because I'm not terribly good at remembering any of my own. Perhaps they're too mundane to distinguish from reality.

ANAMNESIS

These things don't come with instruction manuals, do they? Though even if they did, I'm afraid it wouldn't be of much help here, for the typewriter-bangers fancy to succeed where numbers beyond counting have failed. Nonquestions beget nonanswers and even a Buddha-natured dog cannot solve a nonexistent chicken and egg riddle.

The idle animation is a bit, uh... tasteless? True to life, but still...

WERLYT

Mmm, beef taco MREs.

The noise of background banter is one those things you tend to take for granted. Despite the dumpsterfire that Eureka was, the shout chat trashtalk was a jolly good blast from the past.

Forward sweep and variable geometry, that's doublepluscool. And canards, yeah, canards make everything look cooler.

EDEN I

We can't all be rain men, but even I know that a thousand thousand is nowhere near close to a quadrillion.

Special snowflakes don't need no fact checking. They're too busy waking up the sheeple to go and ask the persons involved if they got it right. I would have sold a kidney for a chance to dropkick that skank off the mountain.

And another to toss whatshisname waifubait into a meatgrinder. Cardboard cutouts that only exist to fellate some manchild's fragile little ego aren't people. Or even characters. They're nothing more than insulting wastes of screentime.

STEWARDS

Sirmadam? Doesn't he see that- ah, I see, I see.

The preference for consuming prose in a tangible form is sometimes a hindrance when it comes to putting the pieces together. As comprehensive as the available commentaries are, reading secondhand information about something isn't quite the same as experiencing it yourself. But for the time being it'll have to do.

The other side I know, though I wonder if I'm reading it right. How far in advance was it planned?

EDEN II

Even though most of the guests made it in time for a serving of clearance sale cake and sparkling water it must have been a bad day for the master of ceremonies. It took so long to light the candles that some of them had almost burned down before the whole set was on fire.

It's mind-boggling how eager some are to sing the praises of third-rate isekai tripe like this.

YoRHa

[This is an unwinnable fight.][Notwithstanding,][give it one more go.]

Hearing people parrot lines they can't even recognize as references isn't fun. And neither is seeing them lose their marbles over some crude namedrops you can google in a minute. It's both depressing and funny in equal measure, but not fun.

A complaint is a complaint, an allusion only through a blind stroke of luck that wouldn't come to the light of day until long after the fact.

From south to north the three dragons of Eurus deliver three doubles, a triple triplet and a pair of quarters totaling three myriads, two kilos and three ares. Nooblord, adjust.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

(Surface Slap)(Momora Mora)

MSQ

Goodness gracious those empty holes in the fishing log are so disgusting to look at.

It\\'s always fascinating to hear about what kinds of dreams other people have because I\\'m not terribly good at remembering any of my own. Perhaps they\\'re too mundane to distinguish from reality.

ANAMNESIS

These things don\\'t come with instruction manuals, do they? Though even if they did, I\\'m afraid it wouldn\\'t be of much help here, for the typewriter-bangers fancy to succeed where numbers beyond counting have failed. Nonquestions beget nonanswers and even a Buddha-natured dog cannot solve a nonexistent chicken and egg riddle.

The idle animation is a bit, uh... tasteless? True to life, but still...

WERLYT

Mmm, beef taco MREs.

The noise of background banter is one those things you tend to take for granted. Despite the dumpsterfire that Eureka was, the shout chat trashtalk was a jolly good blast from the past.

Forward sweep and variable geometry, that\\'s doublepluscool. And canards, yeah, canards make everything look cooler.

EDEN I

We can\\'t all be rain men, but even I know that a thousand thousand is nowhere near close to a quadrillion.

Special snowflakes don\\'t need no fact checking. They\\'re too busy waking up the sheeple to go and ask the persons involved if they got it right. I would have sold a kidney for a chance to dropkick that skank off the mountain.

And another to toss whatshisname waifubait into a meatgrinder. Cardboard cutouts that only exist to fellate some manchild\\'s fragile little ego aren\\'t people. Or even characters. They\\'re nothing more than insulting wastes of screentime.

STEWARDS

Sirmadam? Doesn\\'t he see that- ah, I see, I see.

The preference for consuming prose in a tangible form is sometimes a hindrance when it comes to putting the pieces together. As comprehensive as the available commentaries are, reading secondhand information about something isn\\'t quite the same as experiencing it yourself. But for the time being it\\'ll have to do.

The other side I know, though I wonder if I\\'m reading it right. How far in advance was it planned?

EDEN II

Even though most of the guests made it in time for a serving of clearance sale cake and sparkling water it must have been a bad day for the master of ceremonies. It took so long to light the candles that some of them had almost burned down before the whole set was on fire.

It\\'s mind-boggling how eager some are to sing the praises of third-rate isekai tripe like this.

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Mate? What the heck are you trying to say

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Originally Posted by Dreggit

Mate? What the heck are you trying to say

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I literally have no idea, mad about ocean fishing? As that is where Momora Mora is from but seems nigh gibberish in context to the Lore subsection of the forms.

Baffling troll at worst, straight huh at best.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I literally have no idea, mad about ocean fishing? As that is where Momora Mora is from but seems nigh gibberish in context to the Lore subsection of the forms.

Baffling troll at worst, straight huh at best.

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It looks almost like someone had a bot comb forums (not necessarily these forums) and put together something that looks like a "real" forum post. Props to whatever bot figured out the format we use in these threads, but what the actual f(kupo)k.


I think someone's forum account got hacked. :rolleyes:

Zenos and his new "friend"

What if it is another shard of us that was raised to ascian? I don't think there would be many people who's soul colour Zenos would recognise (simply because he would not pay attention to many).

So, about the WoL's nature and 5.2:

I get that seeing a star shower-esque thing is supposed to act as a power trigger for those with ancient soul fragments and it makes them able to hear Hydaelyn. But I've rewatched the opening scene of ARR multiple times to be sure and we hear Hydaelyn's voice in our "dream" without a star shower having occurred. We don't see a star shower til we get our first crystal (and then we immediately see Hydaelyn herself). So... that's interesting?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the above would only apply to 2.0 WoLs, right? If I remember right, the 1.0 WoLs do experience a star shower vision as soon as they get off their carriage/boat.

Regarding G'raha and 5.2:

I am worried for my boy, but I am also heartened to hear that the JP version apparently refers to his "stake in the outcome" in english as actually being "his wish". Which is in turn referring to the desire to follow us back to the source and continue having adventures. Which I am all for, and really hope happens.

I still think he's gonna pull a "rejoining" of his soul to that of G'raha on the source (ie Ardbert and WoL) and then he'll wake up on the source with memories intact from his Crystal Exarch self. Its the best character outcome, as far as I can see. Crystal Exarch's experience continues on and is not lost, and source!G'raha doesn't get deprived of a future of helping his hero which, if CE!G'raha is anything to go by, is exactly what he really wants anyhow. Sealing himself in the tower was a sacrifice, not a preference, after all.

If the above is the ultimate result for G'raha, that would make him the aetherically densest soul on the Source, which I'm sure will have *some* kind of consequences. And now I'm back to worrying. lol

Regarding Elidibus's plans:

Am I the only one who thinks its possible Elidibus' gambit is going to work? Just, story-wise, it makes sense for him to have some kind of victory leading into 6.0. And it'd be weird for the plot to end up being "Lohgriff attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by Minfilia. Emet-selch attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL. Elidibus attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL." Like, either succeed this time or stop proving the definition of insanity.

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Originally Posted by Dreggit

Mate? What the heck are you trying to say

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It's their personal observations and opinions on what stood out most to them in each of these areas of the patch.

MSQ == They don't like their fishing log not being complete. Something about dreams in the MSQ caused them a moment of introspection.

Amanesis == Musings about the crystals containing the plans for original forms of creatures we've fought in other forms. Basically saying that it was the writers for XIV trying to answer the age old question, "What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Werlyt == Beef Taco MREs probably referring to getting the shits, i.e. this part felt like shit? Either that or it tasted surprisngly good. Sounds like they had some genuine fun.

Eden I == We're not all idiot savants/good at math, but the number scale was way off. They don't like the NPC referenced here, not sure who the skank is. I assume Ryne or Gaia. But it's Eden I, so... well I guess the options are the same. Really doesn't like Thancred? I think they're talking about Thancred, but it might be Urianger. I don't know who they consider Waifubait that strokes the PC's ego.

Stewards ==Not sure about this part. I don't know what Stewards is even about in relation to this patch. Just more musings and reactions to what's going, with an earnest question about how far back were the devs/writers planning this part.

Eden II == I think this was kind of a way of saying that the second part of Eden to them was all flash and no substance. Took so long to get to the good part that it ruined itself? They didn't like it, and I guess can think of other games in similar veins that they'd rather play.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's their personal observations and opinions on what stood out most to them in each of these areas of the patch.
Werlyt == Beef Taco MREs probably referring to getting the shits, i.e. this part felt like shit? Either that or it tasted surprisngly good. Sounds like they had some genuine fun.

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Nah, the Tacos are

Very misheard lyrics from Ultima remixed into the Ruby Weapon patch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d6X...ature=youtu.be

Many people are hearing "tacos" Some have said Big Beef Tacos like above, to Beef Soft Tacos or like below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-EUi3sXGhE

I just focused too much on the MRE part I guess heh, my bad!

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

So, about the WoL's nature and 5.2:

I get that seeing a star shower-esque thing is supposed to act as a power trigger for those with ancient soul fragments and it makes them able to hear Hydaelyn. But I've rewatched the opening scene of ARR multiple times to be sure and we hear Hydaelyn's voice in our "dream" without a star shower having occurred. We don't see a star shower til we get our first crystal (and then we immediately see Hydaelyn herself). So... that's interesting?

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About your points

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Regarding Elidibus's plans:

Am I the only one who thinks its possible Elidibus' gambit is going to work? Just, story-wise, it makes sense for him to have some kind of victory leading into 6.0. And it'd be weird for the plot to end up being "Lohgriff attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by Minfilia. Emet-selch attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL. Elidibus attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL." Like, either succeed this time or stop proving the definition of insanity.

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The problem with that is that a flood of light would destroy everything we have worked for. And would make no sense gameplay wise because we do need to be able to visit the first. I also believe that it would be way too dark for this story. Everyone we have known, every beast tribe we have helped, all the stuff with Eden or Nier would be gone. And Elidibus also needs a desaster on the source first otherwise a rejoining wont happen.

What should realistically happen on the source that will be calamity level? Black rose is something Zenos does not want to use, normal war wont bring a calamity of light. So I doubt that his plan will work.

I think that us being more active and going to them will stop it. Or maybe (since he does not like us) he underestimated the new "WoLs" believing them to betray us..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

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Zenos's Dreams

I think Zenos is just a special case here due to being Emet-Selch's grandson.

Random thoughts after I actually managed to catch up to the MSQ.
Elidbus' plans:

Based on main-ShB's epilogue Elidibus intends to play another round of WoL vs WoD just with swapped roles due to the First's setting. So if he's to succeed in ,keeping the WoL/D in the First (as long as possible) -- be it to plot catastrophies in the Source or for whatever -- he would need to actually "create"/train strong enough WoLs in addition to himself as unless the current citizens receive a cheat boost to lvl 80 with BiS gear :p. So if he participated directly in whatever skirmishes there'd be, I can see how he could manipulate the "pleb"-WoLs for a rather continous stallment. Especially if we, the WoLD were likely to hold back to not hurt the pleb-WoLs. IIRC, the flood of light occured after Ardbert and co defeated the Dark Dude so a roughly equality in power would need to be given. But anyway, succeeding at Flood of Light v2? Eh... I wouldn't personally like such a development.

As for Stalker Dude/Zenos.

Dunno what to expect of that scene. It seemed to be Amaurot's Final Days. Mr. White Cape who sounds suspiscously/unfortunately like Creepinator Asahi and his tale, I'm also unsure how that plays into another battle with our "friend and foe". Maybe blowing more power into his behind by giving him Creation magic? Or maybe setting the idea in Zeno's head to re-create this point in time for the Source as a fitting stage for the re-re-re-rematch.

About Elidibus plan

I dunno why but I don't think he wants to trigger a flood of light, rather he wants to destabilize crystarium from what it looks like, he might also try to incite all the wannabe-WOLs against us delaying the scions return to the source.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

About your points

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

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I don't disagree that the Hydaelyn call that people heard in the Crystarium could have been fabricated. I don't know if it was or wasn't. Either is likely to me.

But I do buy that a star shower triggers the echo of ancient power present in those with ancient souls. Mainly b/c the concept that trauma could run so deep it left an imprint on the soul across lifetimes was also a conclusion Y'shtola's story step was coming to on her own with the whole thing in Rak'tikka, before Elidibus even touched on it.

And I believe the claim that having that echo activated is what allows one to hear Hydaelyn, among other things. This is b/c of its ability to allow us to hear and understand all sorts of languages, see the unseen, experience others' experiences, etc. The idea that the echo is what allows us to hear Hydaelyn is right in line with its proven abilities.

My point was just that, given the above, its both odd and interesting that we start off hearing her and having a vision foretelling future events before we've ever seen a star shower.

Its possibly just a bit more proof that we're an oddity even among oddities. This might be proof we're Venat, for example, with the whole "I shall have control over what form I take" line. We hear Hydaelyn without a star shower b/c we're technically incarnations of the soul that is her heart. Maybe similar to Elidibus' current situation. Or something.

Or the Venat thing is a red herring and we're the 14th convocate like many of us think, and the specialness results from their neutral stance/whatever plan they pulled off post-Final Days.

Or maybe its just a matter of "Its a retcon, don't think too hard about it." lol

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Originally Posted by foussi

About Elidibus plan

I dunno why but I don't think he wants to trigger a flood of light, rather he wants to destabilize crystarium from what it looks like, he might also try to incite all the wannabe-WOLs against us delaying the scions return to the source.

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Yeah, that's where my mind has gone since that post. It doesn't necessarily have to be a flood of light. Another flood of light that doesn't succeed is too repetitive. But Elidibus succeeding at whatever it is he's going for... that still seems like it'd make the most sense to me. And not necessarily wholesale succeeding, either, but at least claiming a real victory.

Like, maybe he'll claim (part of?) whatever shard of Zodiark's power is present in the First, even if he doesn't claim the entirety of the planet's aether, yet. So Zodiark gets closer to being whole, even if the world doesn't. Or something else equally significant.

Random, but more thoughts on where I think the story is going, specifically the scions, b/c hey its patch night and I'm bored:

I am of the opinion that Thancred should stay on the First. And more importantly, he should *want* to stay on the First, given the whole character arc he's had of becoming Ryne's father figure and what that means for him and how it contrasts him not being there for Minfilia as much as he wanted. But up till now he's been acting like he's leaving. Now, I assume that's not out of a *desire* to leave her, but b/c there is no foreseeable way for him to stay. So, he's just prepping her as much as he can. BUT I think ultimately he's gonna end up staying on the first, unexpectedly. He's the oldest transplant and he's the one losing his connection to the Source the fastest. I think he'll live, but it'll be via means that can't be used more than once. And he's going to end up being a close call/case study to up the stakes in the Scions getting home *now* instead of later.

But Thancred is definitely staying, or Ryne is learning how to travel btwn dimensions. Leaving her alone except for occasional visits from her crazy WoD aunt/uncle--that could, in theory, be years apart due to shard time differentials--is not ok. Even if she does end up having Gaia with her.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Random, but more thoughts on where I think the story is going, specifically the scions, b/c hey its patch night and I'm bored:

I am of the opinion that Thancred should stay on the First. And more importantly, he should *want* to stay on the First, given the whole character arc he's had of becoming Ryne's father figure and what that means for him and how it contrasts him not being there for Minfilia as much as he wanted. But up till now he's been acting like he's leaving. Now, I assume that's not out of a *desire* to leave her, but b/c there is no foreseeable way for him to stay. So, he's just prepping her as much as he can. BUT I think ultimately he's gonna end up staying on the first, unexpectedly. He's the oldest transplant and he's the one losing his connection to the Source the fastest. I think he'll live, but it'll be via means that can't be used more than once. And he's going to end up being a close call/case study to up the stakes in the Scions getting home *now* instead of later.

But Thancred is definitely staying, or Ryne is learning how to travel btwn dimensions. Leaving her alone except for occasional visits from her crazy WoD aunt/uncle--that could, in theory, be years apart due to shard time differentials--is not ok. Even if she does end up having Gaia with her.

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Well, we don't know what the consequences of Thancred staying on the First w/o his actual body might be. Remember he is technically a corporeal spirit atm, and if that stint at the Source lake before we meet Bismarck again is anything to go buy, the fading connection between the Scions souls and bodies could be very dire indeed.

However I am all for Ryne travelling between dimensions.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Well, we don't know what the consequences of Thancred staying on the First w/o his actual body might be.

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We might go and fetch his body for him? We can move "stuff" between worlds easy enough, just not people. I guess a body with no one home might count as stuff.

Last resort sort of thing if he worsens further, because without a body on the source he'd presumably be forever stuck on the first.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

We might go and fetch his body for him? We can move "stuff" between worlds easy enough, just not people. I guess a body with no one home might count as stuff.

Last resort sort of thing if he worsens further, because without a body on the source he'd presumably be forever stuck on the first.

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The implication that I've been getting is that, while separated, body, mind, and soul are still dependent on one another. If any die, they all die. That's the urgency in returning to the Source - the parts have been separated for too long, and if the body dies, the mind and soul will disperse into the Lifestream. If that's true, the demise of his body won't just mean Thancred is stuck on the first - it means he'll die there, too.

Of course, an alternative to Ryne moving to the first would be Thancred (body, soul, and mind reunited) returning to the First. The WoL travels back and forth as a matter of course, now, so it's likely the Exarch has perfected the process - for the WoL, anyway. Even so, that would presumably be a big step toward figuring out how to send others, as well.

I also want Thancred to stay, and I want him to want to stay, but (Eden spoilers)

Urianger and Thancred's scene at the end definitely read like "they won't be in the First anymore when Eden returns in 5.4 so we need to write them out of it now."