Ast cards 6.0 rework

Rai_Takara you are correct the healers are most balanced they have ever been at this time.

And that is a problem.

How do you deal with the Asts complaints about
-cards and divination being underwhelming that you need a 3rd party illegal tool to see how much they do
-controller issues
-Sleece draw

You cannot take personal damage away due to people complaining (5.1 buffs only buffed personal damage for Ast and is the reason Ast now highest rDPS healer)

Controller issues require either targeting system or card system reworked(this could just be adding a few skills or reworking a couple of them) either is expansion level work


Sleeve Draw would still need to give the same amount of cards or the same amount of potential dmg up.

The devs unintentionally pigeonholed themselves with their balance because increasing Ast(remember people were scared whm was too high, now Ast is higher) would result in tanks and whm and sch needing buffs. Now your looking at 7 jobs rather than 1.

It being a perfectly balanced system is a hindrance to improvements across the board as any minor tweak if there is a prominent complaint(I purposely picked the ones that can still use current card system but are talked about a lot) could shatter that balance horribly.

Frankly I don't know why Sleeve Draw gives you three draws. You only need three seals for a Divination, therefore if Sleeve only gave you two extra Draws, then you use Draw first, then Sleeve, and you've got your three cards/seals.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Frankly I don't know why Sleeve Draw gives you three draws. You only need three seals for a Divination, therefore if Sleeve only gave you two extra Draws, then you use Draw first, then Sleeve, and you've got your three cards/seals.

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You'd actually only need one extra draw, since you can draw before the pull and wait for the cd.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

You'd actually only need one extra draw, since you can draw before the pull and wait for the cd.

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Well they don't want people doing that, so two would make the most sense.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

At what cost? Satisfaction? Unique game play? There are so many issues still to be handled to this day but I won't go into detail with that can be easily noticeable with all the threads created. RDM was still suffering even with 5.0, and don't get me started on BRD's song utility. If they manage to come up with fixes to all these concerns from now to next expansion then I might agree with you but the fact remains jobs being balance isn't everything to people.

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Cost being loss of unique job strengths and weaknesses at the gain of being able to play any job you want and being competitive. Hence when RDM gets buffed, hopefully it does comparable damage to the other two casters. I also think BRD needs to be buffed single target damage while nerfing its multi dot/target damage to put it in line with the other ranged.

I used to be cynical with SE on game balance after seeing how brokenly powerful some jobs were for the longest time. However, this time they are paying attention to balance and things seem better than before. Here's hoping that's the case and it's not a fluke that balance is good right now.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Rai_Takara you are correct the healers are most balanced they have ever been at this time.

And that is a problem.

How do you deal with the Asts complaints about
-cards and divination being underwhelming that you need a 3rd party illegal tool to see how much they do
-controller issues
-Sleece draw

You cannot take personal damage away due to people complaining (5.1 buffs only buffed personal damage for Ast and is the reason Ast now highest rDPS healer)

Controller issues require either targeting system or card system reworked(this could just be adding a few skills or reworking a couple of them) either is expansion level work


Sleeve Draw would still need to give the same amount of cards or the same amount of potential dmg up.

The devs unintentionally pigeonholed themselves with their balance because increasing Ast(remember people were scared whm was too high, now Ast is higher) would result in tanks and whm and sch needing buffs. Now your looking at 7 jobs rather than 1.

It being a perfectly balanced system is a hindrance to improvements across the board as any minor tweak if there is a prominent complaint(I purposely picked the ones that can still use current card system but are talked about a lot) could shatter that balance horribly.

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Some jobs do naturally higher dps and all jobs have predictable burst phases, no 3rd party tool required.

Controller issues I agree with, but I blame sleeve draw. I personally think sleeve should fill up the remaining seals with different ones.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Cost being loss of unique job strengths and weaknesses at the gain of being able to play any job you want and being competitive. Hence when RDM gets buffed, hopefully it does comparable damage to the other two casters. I also think BRD needs to be buffed single target damage while nerfing its multi dot/target damage to put it in line with the other ranged.

I used to be cynical with SE on game balance after seeing how brokenly powerful some jobs were for the longest time. However, this time they are paying attention to balance and things seem better than before. Here's hoping that's the case and it's not a fluke that balance is good right now.



Some jobs do naturally higher dps and all jobs have predictable burst phases, no 3rd party tool required.

Controller issues I agree with, but I blame sleeve draw. I personally think sleeve should fill up the remaining seals with different ones.

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I still believe classes should be unique while not having to suffer its identity for it. Also that wouldn't fix sleeve draw, that would only fix the fishing problem during the burst part for the opening. AST needs a complete rework of the card system, regardless of how long it takes.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I still believe classes should be unique while not having to suffer its identity for it. Also that wouldn't fix sleeve draw, that would only fix the fishing problem during the burst part for the opening. AST needs a complete rework of the card system, regardless of how long it takes.

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It would fix the issue with having to rapid fire cards, and free up lightspeed for movement and QoL versus exclusively for sleeve draw.

Classes can feel different and unique, but not at the cost of balance, lest we decide just make certain jobs nonviable (especially with this community where if a job isn't within x% then it's barred from PFs and pretty much undesired from serious endgame content).

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

It would fix the issue with having to rapid fire cards, and free up lightspeed for movement and QoL versus exclusively for sleeve draw.

Classes can feel different and unique, but not at the cost of balance, lest we decide just make certain jobs nonviable (especially with this community where if a job isn't within x% then it's barred from PFs and pretty much undesired from serious endgame content).

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Not really because with how AST MP management system which you should know isn't great, you need to use it off Cooldown mostly , and you will already have 3 seals in the 6 cards you draw before your next sleeve draw burst. Class can still have their identity while being balanced, you put forth effort and time into it.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Not really because with how AST MP management system which you should know isn't great, you need to use it off Cooldown mostly , and you will already have 3 seals in the 6 cards you draw before your next sleeve draw burst. Class can still have their identity while being balanced, you put forth effort and time into it.

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That's the next thing to sort, MP. Remove mp reduction off lightspeed and make It a 60 sec cd thats purely there for movement. As for sleeve, it means you can play more lords and ladies when divination lines up with 3 min cds/bursts.

There was a good idea I heard where you get MP back for placing the right cards on people. Say balance/spear/arrow/lord to a melee and vice versa. Would encourage proper play and is similar to the idea of MP on draw but with some focus on playing the cards.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

There was a good idea I heard where you get MP back for placing the right cards on people. Say balance/spear/arrow/lord to a melee and vice versa. Would encourage proper play and is similar to the idea of MP on draw but with some focus on playing the cards.

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Even a basic +300 / 500 MP on Draw would be cool, because it would weave the card system in the job's flow (like Aetherflow and Assize do).

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

That's the next thing to sort, MP. Remove mp reduction off lightspeed and make It a 60 sec cd thats purely there for movement. As for sleeve, it means you can play more lords and ladies when divination lines up with 3 min cds/bursts.

There was a good idea I heard where you get MP back for placing the right cards on people. Say balance/spear/arrow/lord to a melee and vice versa. Would encourage proper play and is similar to the idea of MP on draw but with some focus on playing the cards.

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Oooh. Like 250 on an incorrect dps and 500 on a correct dps? That would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Oooh. Like 250 on an incorrect dps and 500 on a correct dps? That would be nice.

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Yes, and in addition, you get % of their damage done back as MP gained after the card duration finishes. Would be a good way to tell which DPS to consistently card.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Yes, and in addition, you get % of their damage done back as MP gained after the card duration finishes. Would be a good way to tell which DPS to consistently card.

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I agree we need a way to better monitor that kinda system. But I'd personally be worried about that being too powerful for sustain. I personally feel just having the 250/500 system on card plays would be sufficient. Perhaps make it like a 325/750 boost for minor arcana as well to add an extra layer of decision making to cards, build a seal or get extra mana?

The fact that ast card posts are seemingly non-stop shows the concept is a failed idea which needs replacing.
By all means have card names against new skills to keep the AST association, but take away the hit & miss lottery mechanism which should never have seen the light of day.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

The fact that ast card posts are seemingly non-stop shows the concept is a failed idea which needs replacing.
By all means have card names against new skills to keep the AST association, but take away the hit & miss lottery mechanism which should never have seen the light of day.

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Then remove damage buffs from the hit and miss lottery system.

As long as damage buffs exist there, we aren't going to see the previous system as per the devs own words.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Then remove damage buffs from the hit and miss lottery system.

As long as damage buffs exist there, we aren't going to see the previous system as per the devs own words.

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Please link where they said it can never return.

All they've said since expansion launch is the current system will stay for the foreseeable future which is vague to be be any period of time so I am very interested to see this hard no you have heard about.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Then remove damage buffs from the hit and miss lottery system.

As long as damage buffs exist there, we aren't going to see the previous system as per the devs own words.

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I don’t want the previous system, that was a keep spamming until you get ‘the’ card then start over.
None of these skills should be lucky dips. Either they are good enough to use regularly or are bypassed. This isn’t proper class design.
The whole card system needs scrapping, replacing with skills that you choose to use when needed like other classes.
It needs more ingenuity from SE to truly separate it from its too cloned WHM roots.

Personally, I think what they should've done is give every card a damage buff like it is currently but also an additional effect which are the effects they had pre-5.0. Balance, Ewer and Spire will need to have new effects, though. They should also remove the Melee/Ranged percentages from them. Lord and Lady could probably stay as it is, though.
Other than that, to prevent the "fishing for the best card" issue, just make Divination worth using so there's an incentive to prioritize the right seals than the best cards.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Please link where they said it can never return.

All they've said since expansion launch is the current system will stay for the foreseeable future which is vague to be be any period of time so I am very interested to see this hard no you have heard about.

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Just the quote from expansion launch as you're familiar with.

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Regarding card effects, they were changed to their current iteration because we received feedback from all regions that players did not want "useless cards." While the current iteration does indeed reduce the excitement of drawing a "good card", if we were to add various different card effects, then we would just return to fishing for the most favorable one, so we decided to simplify it. We plan on continuing with the current iteration for now.

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The x.2 patches are usually major patches for FFXIV and even there, SE did not mention anything about AST, even after all this feedback. To me it's clear that they aren't planning to change it anytime in the near future and they are happy with where AST is currently, as well as most jobs.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

I don’t want the previous system, that was a keep spamming until you get ‘the’ card then start over.
None of these skills should be lucky dips. Either they are good enough to use regularly or are bypassed. This isn’t proper class design.
The whole card system needs scrapping, replacing with skills that you choose to use when needed like other classes.
It needs more ingenuity from SE to truly separate it from its too cloned WHM roots.

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I think the current system could add more use with seals and make it less tied to damage and more tied to the other effects people want. Maybe if you get 3 blue seals you get MP refresh as well as the 6% damage buff? No matter what combination of seals you get, you always get the 6% damage buff, but what differs is the bonus effect you get. I think that is a good direction. I also think making sleeve draw do something else like maybe filling up the seal guage or something would be better than what we have with rapid fire card throwing.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

I think the current system could add more use with seals and make it less tied to damage and more tied to the other effects people want. Maybe if you get 3 blue seals you get MP refresh as well as the 6% damage buff? No matter what combination of seals you get, you always get the 6% damage buff, but what differs is the bonus effect you get. I think that is a good direction.

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This would be great but at the same time... Depending on their approach, it might also cause the problem of fishing for the best seal combination, which is the very thing the devs are trying to avoid with the cards themselves. As long as the additional buffs benefit non-offensively, then I don't see much of an issue.

Give us back the old card system, with a few changes:
Spire and Ewer give physical and magic damage buffs instead of useless shit. Even with unbalanced DPS jobs in Duty Finder, you or the tank can always use one.
Return bole to some non-damage buff. You can always re-roll to get something useful for damage, but having one non-damage card gives variety and utility when you're progging or in shit groups.
No extended RR. All RR is single-target. This removes 90% of the balance problems with the old card system.
Give a 5-minute cooldown ability to stack the deck with double balance and RR, so that world-first and speedkill groups don't have to sit around waiting for a perfect pre-fight deck.

That would solve all of the old balance issues, and restore an interesting and unique class system that no longer exists in any MMORPG. If there are enough nu-AST diehards, then give the new healer job a similar mechanic.

Ideally we would also get back the old buff extensions, so we can once again go hogwild with 20 seconds of instant-cast Gravity on dungeon pulls. But I can get over that if we get our cards back. The great days of old are already being forgotten, and they must be reclaimed before all memory is lost. My poor Canopus is growing rusty...

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

This would be great but at the same time... Depending on their approach, it might also cause the problem of fishing for the best seal combination, which is the very thing the devs are trying to avoid with the cards themselves. As long as the additional buffs benefit non-offensively, then I don't see much of an issue.

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Right. The idea is that the additional buff would be non-offensive in nature so that even if there is a best non offensive buff, it won't come at the cost of offense.