Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

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Originally Posted by MeanDragon

So again:

The argument is it's too hard.

Why are any of the raids on roulettes? None of them are required to move the MSQ forward.

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Castrum MEridianum and Praetorium would beg to differ

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Originally Posted by SieneskaSanura

Castrum MEridianum and Praetorium would beg to differ

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I bowed out of this discussion and admitted I was wrong...

Those 2 have their own category on the roulettes. So they are not part of this.

Erm sorry 8 man Dungeon does not = raid lol. Even when both of these were new it was face roll. In fact it was the best way to farm the lowest tier tomes.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Y'know, all this discussion on difficulty, and we haven't even stopped to consider the additional reason this shouldn't be added to roulettes. Cutscenes. Forget fights being too difficult, players will absolutely definitely bail just to not be stuck waiting for others watching the loooong scenes before some of the raids even start.

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That's actually a good point. While people can skip them (unless SE force people to watch the cutscenes, in which case that will make Normal Raid Roulette a dead roulette for some people), the person new to the fight/zone and doesn't care what other players think will most likely keep on watching.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

While I understand your valid argument, I don't think any single one of those things directly matters largely because none of which you pointed out is somehow avoided in later content with similar mechanics to coil. You get the same terribles if they are gonna exist regardless and you boot/kick or disband accordingly. Here's another idea, if you and anyone was THAT worried, that it can't somehow be done, then simply implement the same lock that already exists on roulettes when new content is added, they need to beat the fight before the roulette is active. Anyone whose already did coils will be in the DF pool. Also ftr, free gear you get from MSQ already out levels coils ilvl130 cap. It's fear mongering to express that the average player on DF will both:

1) Not meet the minimum ilvl for coil
And
2) Also not be over ilvl and synced down

That's just not as common as anyone tries to point out and if you gate the roulette for those that haven't beaten it, you lose nothing as now people will simply move to unlock it again as they do every single time normals are added. What a better time then the lull of a non raid season (like now) where people can be invested into something again. These fights are fairly zerg friendly but most haven't went in recently to see that.




Nice troll. Too much incompetence though.

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I only see a troll here: a contrarian one who's insulting other posters by calling them fearmongers and apparently is unaware of the current state of DF population.

You're starting to sound like the typical raider troll who claims everything is easy because they only run duties with their orange buddies.

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

That's how Eden is too basically though. One incompetent person can wipe the whole instance, which I see happen a fair few times with E2 and the stack/aoe split that goes off at the same time. I do agree that the skills culling would make things difficult, and I didn't think about that. Especially how they haven't really considered balancing for the lower levels. But there still needs to be some option for this. As it is, it's basically content that isn't even actually there.

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Yes, but whilst people in this game have proven on numerous occasions they can play for years and still lack basic common sense, people in Eden are 80 and by then will have some basic comprehension of how to adapt to raid mechanics. Coils are 50 and were considered difficult for their time even on normal; if the content leading up to unlocking it was of considerable difficulty for new players to the point they'd make it up the steep learning curve to be able to beat coils, then sure, but given their end content is Nabriales who is now a joke and Steps of Faith which is equally hilarious because it only takes a couple of people to know what they're doing to finish it; it's simply too big of a jump. Common sense eventually does prevail in Edenscape when there are a couple of people that'll turn the raid into a weakness debuff fiasco, but the same mistakes in a few of the turns in coil will inevitably end the fight and in T9 even if you even make it past the transition that is going to drive people berserk, and in typical roulette fashion it'll just happen to be the one that pops every time.

I'd love to do synced coils again, but I know it'd be a frustrating clown fiesta of an abandon fest that simply just won't be worth the exp.

The way some people are speaking about DF here makes it sound like it's impossible to clear even o12n or e4n in the duty finder, all while overhyping the mechanics of massively nerfed fights like T6. Fights like T9 are definitely not clearable on the duty finder, but there's no reason to keep them at that difficulty level, given that they're ancient, its impossible to experience them as they used to be (classes have been majorly changed since then), and a new player will get a better experience of coil by doing an easy 8 person raid than by being carried by an invincible level 80 player.

I think all of those who are incredibly disturbed by the idea of Coil being added to duty roulette should literally just create a party finder and run it sync. Just come back after that with your own honest report on how it went.

We've all been in DF countless times but that has not stopped people from creating threads that ask for more challenging and engaging content. You all seriously need to stop letting the bads take over this game to the extent of you thinking that every run you have had is terrible. I have had terrible runs but they have not stopped me from queuing up for harder content anyway across all the characters I have played. Bad runs are not common and you know it. Otherwise, a certain thread would probably be well over its size then what it is.

And even when you bring up the whole cutscenes argument, you can't speak for an entire community that you won't find not a single group that is willing to let you watch cut scenes. I have run into far more people from Aether to Primal and now to Crystal that have let me watch all, one more time, ALL cutscenes. This character is brand new and I watched every cutscene from long to short without so much as a blip from any of the parties I was in. Most were actually happy to let me do it while they chatted away amongst themselves. So no I don't believe that this community is suddenly League of Legends and everybody baby rages at the drop of a dime.

Just stop trying to act like you met everyone who plays.

All we're asking for is easier access to Coil. I have only been able to go through Coil twice and its simply because no one likes to run old content. When I did finally get to do Coil, for both times there were more newbies then vets and both times the vets were able to easily guide us through everything. It was nothing. And now here I am needing to do Coil again on this character but honestly, I am reluctant because I really can't stand the fact that I have to use Party Finder. But I want to do it because I had so much fun in there during my last runs. Wipes and all. And a side note, both times the vets thought it was fun to run sync with us random newbies.

TL:DR Stop putting words into an entire community like you have met them all individually and let us have easier access to Coil already!

Party finder doesn't really simulate duty finder roulette, though. You have to consider that there will be someone in the party (maybe more) who are only there for a quick and easy win, are expecting 7 players to carry them and/or don't really know how to play their Job yet. Also gotta factor in the player who doesn't read party chat, too.

Coil is already easy to access, anyway. Just do it unsync'd. You can even solo most of them at level 80 (maybe not T9. T11 also takes awhile for the trash section. Also have to deal with Ultra Egg).

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I only see a troll here: a contrarian one who's insulting other posters by calling them fearmongers and apparently is unaware of the current state of DF population.

You're starting to sound like the typical raider troll who claims everything is easy because they only run duties with their orange buddies.

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I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason. If your opinion to all of my valid arguments is that, I only run content with lolorange parse buddies /FC mates/ friends and don't touch DF literally at all, then your reading comprehension sucks.

DF is not the travesty people claim it is and as someone who is more of a loner/puger of the community, and has actually did this content post 5.0, I literally fit the description of someone who can give the most honest assessment in this thread.

I've been playing since 2.0 beta and have DF/PF'd damn near everything in this game the moment it came out. Battle Mentor, that actually helps people with recommendations in content on all levels. Have actually completed all content but ult, pre-nerf & post-nerf. Eden Savage downed in Week2 on PF alone (if anyone thinks this is easy, I got news for you)

I've been around. If anyone is seriously doubting my credentials, I invite you to explore my lodestone. My post aren't troll or close to. They are honest assessments of the content and I am more than sure some of these naysayers would agree with my perspective if they actually tried these fights in today's state of game.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

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Just want to state there is a fine line of difference between someone running Coils in PF and someone actually getting Coils in DF in a rou

PF is the idea you're setting your time aside, so when you get a fight like 9 or 13 you're prepared to work through the wipes and get the clear no matter the cost.

DF in a rou is the idea you're doing this for a daily bonus, and just want to have it done in the most efficient way possible. It's something you're meant to just run to get it over with because you got like 6 more to do to snag that extra gil. Listen I can't speak for everyone here but my idea of a quick and easy rou is not guiding sprouts in the DF on a daily basis to manage those later coils because they aren't unga bunga level strats.

We're talking about the same DF that bailed out on Tsukuyomi NM because it was "too hard", and they didn't want to join the wipes. The same DF that leaves if Titania NM pops in prep that it'll most likely be a shitshow. The ones who STILL don't understand staying for the stack in E2N when this content is like 4 months old at this time even when they aren't first timers.

Putting them in the situations that require more proper thought and planning is too much for them, its why we keep bringing up TG Cid which is a boss that has extremely simple placement yet people can't manage.

You can vouch for the majority not meeting that trend and to an end I will agree, but with any piece of content coming into the limelight on a casual scale like Frontlines, Nier alliance raid, even Grand Cosmos recently, that keeps popping up even after explaining the mechanics.

Equal minded people can join a PF to run coils, not everyone in a DF rou is going to have the same thoughts especially when the wipes start happening with new people. For a better coils experience for everyone it should just stay in PF, you'll get it down fine and we can avoid the absolute headaches that it'll bring. Let alone adding in Coils when we keep getting new raids every even patch people still need to refine.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

PF is the idea you're setting your time aside, so when you get a fight like 9 or 13 you're prepared to work through the wipes and get the clear no matter the cost.

DF in a rou is the idea you're doing this for a daily bonus, and just want to have it done in the most efficient way possible. It's something you're meant to just run to get it over with because you got like 6 more to do to snag that extra gil. Listen I can't speak for everyone here but my idea of a quick and easy rou is not guiding sprouts in the DF on a daily basis to manage those later coils because they aren't unga bunga level strats.

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May I ask you why you feel this way?

PF for pugging content has some level of expectancy, whether it's benchmarks in the fight as prerequisites, or Duty Complete tags. Patience is not the word I would use to define PF, when people notice the lack of progress regardless of explanations or not. People leave all the time even in that scenario.

In DF, when people enter into DF Roulette, Alliance being the biggest offender, they will either suceed, vote abandon, or people will just drop out either at the beginning, or after the first wipe. Orbonne Monastery for example, I have DF'd almost every single run I've ever did in there and have only ever failed to clear once; when the content was Day 1 out and we ran out of time. Every other time, people struggled with the fights, people left or vote abandon requests went out. I'd coach or make call outs and once the fight starts everyone moves accordingly and we got the clear. I'm sure alot of people can't relate to my experience with OM, but that doesn't mean DF is uncoachable either.

My point with both of these is that, the negative situations don't stop people from completing the content and they will continue to do Roulettes all the same. I remember when Omegascape 09N ->012N came out and everyone IMMEDIATELY felt the difficulty jump for story mode content. There were a few threads then, that the content might be overtuned for DF and people were wiping alot then too. Nothing changed, and DF adapted fairly well.

Of course, they will always be bad runs in ANY level of content, but there will easily be many more successes. Assuming that bad is the mainstream, is simply not true even in DF. If that's the case, alot more content would be nerfed regularly, ala Steps of Faith, at the time.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

May I ask you why you feel this way?

PF for pugging content has some level of expectancy, whether it's benchmarks in the fight as prerequisites, or Duty Complete tags. Patience is not the word I would use to define PF, when people notice the lack of progress regardless of explanations or not. People leave all the time even in that scenario.

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Patience is absolutely the most defining word of PF. You're personally setting your time to wait for people to fill, waiting to make sure everyone else is clear in the ready check before queuing in., and all the ins and outs of just doing a marker bonanza as these fights are. Patience also comes back if people leave because they didnt meet the expectations you set in your pf. If I'm joining a party on Hades currently working on Phase 3 and they can't even clear Phase 1 that's just a trap party. They absolutely have the right to leave during that time, just as coils would be listing yourself for whatever you're doing. A story run is simply just that unsynced and blitzing through, but if you decide to run them sync then your pf should be adjusted for that reason. The only reason someone would leave a pf outside of personal life issues if that it's not meeting your description in terms of progression (which can be the result of bad dps or not handling mechs).

The DF experience is random the whole way through, so that concept of people leaving is going to happen since there isn't a set notion ahead past it could be any of of these duties.

While the majority of people are focusing on Eden and Omegascape is becoming less and less picked being the middle child, you still see people wiping on 11-12 especially. The fact they're not picked as often isn't helping since people are trying to relearn everything and dodging. When everyone was running O12N it was current content people know they would have to be running anyway for Crystaloids. So you kinda had to get on with it in order to get your trade in items. Now that the phase has ended we are back to it being a game of chance if your group can manage it. Mainly on the tanks ends with the split adds.

Absolutely there will be, BUT it would be better to keep it to the content in the normal raid rou as is. Coils are just too far out there on the scale to put them all in there. You either do them all or do none, and personally with those higher number instances I'd rather avoid the headaches for everyone. Unless they want to make a Coils rou(which I doubt they will) they should be kept out of normal raid until they are all nerfed so hard into the ground they make Alte Roite look like Urth's Fount.

I've stated before this isn't a matter of people not being able to clear content, this is a matter of specific these raids being through into normal raid rou, which is meant to be a quick and easy outlet. You want your coils, just go on PF, after all you believe it's not an issue of patience right?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason. If your opinion to all of my valid arguments is that, I only run content with lolorange parse buddies /FC mates/ friends and don't touch DF literally at all, then your reading comprehension sucks.

DF is not the travesty people claim it is and as someone who is more of a loner/puger of the community, and has actually did this content post 5.0, I literally fit the description of someone who can give the most honest assessment in this thread.

I've been playing since 2.0 beta and have DF/PF'd damn near everything in this game the moment it came out. Battle Mentor, that actually helps people with recommendations in content on all levels. Have actually completed all content but ult, pre-nerf & post-nerf. Eden Savage downed in Week2 on PF alone (if anyone thinks this is easy, I got news for you)

I've been around. If anyone is seriously doubting my credentials, I invite you to explore my lodestone. My post aren't troll or close to. They are honest assessments of the content and I am more than sure some of these naysayers would agree with my perspective if they actually tried these fights in today's state of game.

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You call it fear-mongering; I call it being realistic. I’m sorry if that offends you.

DF is not this sunshine-and-rainbows place where people smoothly complete all types of content; where people don’t struggle to grasp simple mechanics; where people actually listen to advice more often than ignore it; or a place where I think the Coils belong. You are clearly an individual who is over-faithful when it comes to the average DF experience, and I don’t know if that’s delusion, denial, or just willful ignorance on your part. If DF wasn’t a mess more times than not on any piece of content that presents a remote challenge, the Tales of the DF thread wouldn’t exist. People don’t create a megathread for when things go smoothly.

Read carefully Nestama’s posts about how people want quick and easy clears in their daily roulettes—because I feel as if you’re willfully ignoring those. And then try to guarantee me how “quick and easy” something like T9, T11, T12, or T13 would be. I’d doubt players could even do half of those fights without wiping and then subsequently Vote Abandoning—if they don’t just leave right on the spot as people do for EX primals. Since you claim to be a Battle Mentor, surely you’ve gotten at least one of those if you’ve bothered to touch Mentor Roulette.

Just because some of the Coils can be facerolled doesn’t mean they all belong in a roulette. If people’s purpose for running them is for the story, DF isn’t going to wait for them to get out of those cutscenes; they aren’t short. Best solution is to just continue to PF them. That way you have players willingly setting aside time for the content (cutscene watching included)—not shoved into wiping repeatedly because half the party doesn’t care to listen to instruction: something fairly common in DF. I stand by what I’ve been saying in this thread: taking a 30-minute penalty would be shorter than attempting to DF any of the more challenging floors.

As for checking your Lodestone, I’ve already done that. There’s not much to see. No public achievements or anything to really back up what you’re saying here, save for SCH BiS when you were on SCH. So telling people to go look at your Lodestone doesn’t really fulfill much in terms of proving the credentials you’re boasting. Perhaps make achievements public before you tell people to go check them out?

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Absolutely there will be, BUT it would be better to keep it to the content in the normal raid rou as is. Coils are just too far out there on the scale to put them all in there. You either do them all or do none, and personally with those higher number instances I'd rather avoid the headaches for everyone. Unless they want to make a Coils rou(which I doubt they will) they should be kept out of normal raid until they are all nerfed so hard into the ground they make Alte Roite look like Urth's Fount.

I've stated before this isn't a matter of people not being able to clear content, this is a matter of specific these raids being through into normal raid rou, which is meant to be a quick and easy outlet. You want your coils, just go on PF, after all you believe it's not an issue of patience right?

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I just think the justification for something like O12N being in roulette, while people have been failing that since it was current, is not being equally distributed to Coil. Content at all in this game shouldn't be treated like a stepchild to the game. Coil more so, because it is an intricate part of FFXIV 2.0 story. The assumption that DF Roulette cannot handle the most punishing of mechanics in Coil, when it has done so before when it was first unlocked and allowed in DF back in the day, literally makes no sense. You didn't suddenly get a group of people who KNEW all of the mechanics off the bat. You had to explain. The same thing you have to do now if you get a carry in DF Roulette: Normal Raid / Alliance. An explanation should not somehow be the villain here. The player base will adapt. Guarantee you that if there was even a single cosmetic ingredient/item added to Coil that was highly sought after, this would not be a discussion. Everyone would be on it, casual / hardcore alike.

Understand the mentality of "due to other examples of DF struggles we've all run into, they should not add coil in" is literally the same reason why the community DOES suffer and bad players develop. Coil, for the very limited challenges it can represent in its current form, in 5.0 (again if you haven't tried it, do so), is not so different than what the community has currently seen. It can easily be (in its current form) the stepping stone, that players can bridge the gap between something like 012N / Eden Normal and ACTUAL Savage level in all of the above.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Duly noted on the Lodestone. I didn't even recall that was a setting (which is fixed).

Aren't you and many others making an assumption though, that it will outright be a wipe fest? As I mentioned before, when these fights were added to DF initially, they were not outright wipe fests and people of all levels did them. A lot of times, you ran into 1- 4 players that hadn't done the content prior, largely cause it was tailored more at the time to static-based content due to no Cross World PF. It took an explanation or two, but due to over gearing, the content was still downable, a statistic mind you, that improved with time of exposure. Prior to coil though, there was no raiding-scene (it was the first of its kind). There were no tiers of Normal/Savage (obviously were not counting T6-T9 Savage). There was no DIFFICULT content that players "had" to do to progress in MSQ notwithstanding Steps of Faith, which wasn't difficult but actually put mechanics in the player's hands for the first time, that they NEEDED to RESPECT.

What has changed now, is the implementation of future normal mode/alliance raids each expansion, which actually contain mechanics/combos you need to respect to down the content as well as upgrade your gear. All of which are completed regularly and are currently part of roulettes. Now, more than ever, do examples exist of mechanics that have been reimplemented ad-nauseum which all stemmed from Coil in one form or another. Players complete this same content in DF nevertheless. To say they somehow can't appropriate the same experience to Coil, or assume as much, is a fallacy and indeed fear-mongering. Of course, it would be silly to say, that there will be ABSOLUTELY no wipes. I have not inferred that ever. But to assume the community can't do it? Nope, I won't sit here and say that. Not after what has successfully been completed already on DF Roulettes. Forget the fact that Coil has already been, at one point in time, successfully pugged on DF consistently.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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You still aren't grasping the fact Coil is considerably harder than any normal, and is harder than a good chunk of EX Primals. Not only are the mechanics far more demanding, one mistake can easily wipe the whole party. Getting hit by Landslide isn't going to kill five other people whereas Twister will. That alone will make people not want to touch any of them, especially when they can faceroll Alexander or Omega in less than half the time. What will happen is people will either leave on sight or demand to be kicked so they avoid the penalty. You needs only look at Orbonne Monastery, Meridianum or any other content where time versus efficiency is lop-sided. People don't want roulettes to take long, not when there are alternatives.

Furthermore, the whole point of even putting Coil in a roulette is so people can experience the story. No DF group will ever wait. And if cut-scenes are forced like MSQ Roulette, people will avoid raid roulette entirely since it doesn't give nearly enough rewards to be worth sitting through cut-scenes and trying to teach people Nael or Bahamut. Even if those rewards were buffed enough to compensate. Well, there have been several threads now complaining how people keep leaving Meridianum because Praetorium offers far better EXP despite only being slightly longer in terms of cut scene length. No matter how you slice it, Coil in the raid roulette would be a nightmare.

If they were to ever consider this, it'd need to go into its own roulette... and I suspect said roulette would almost never pop.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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SE personally made it the red headed stepchild by designating it to it's own little world, and finally splitting the raids into story and savage so that new players didn't have the same experience coil gave. They still also continue to do this with content like BA that does feature more to the story if you clear as opposed to when it concludes when you finish Hydatos so they are no strangers to it.

The fact O12 is still current to players trying to get their 390 weapon gives it much more weight just like Alexander was before Stormblood dropped. The playerbase of back then and the playerbase of now are two totally different demographics. Back when Coil WAS the only thing left to do of course more people would sink in time. Now that we're in 5.1 and new things are out if I'm queuing into normal raid I'd like to get it over asap so to get to other things. Heck I don't even think Coils were in a rou even back then. The majority I'm sure feels the same because I doubt the majority is clicking on five raids they like and praying "I hope I get them!" for the sake of leisure, they're doing the rou and getting it over quickly.

Discussion on this keeps coming back full circle so let me just give a summary of my entire argument:

I believe Coils should not be added to the normal raid roulette because:

A) It is meant for casual quick runs, and should not have to endure raids like T9 and T13 that will cause multiple repeated wipes over a time.

B) The DF playerbase has tendencies to act arrogant, completely disregard helpful hints, and are prone to vote abandoning/leaving on a whim if it's not the content they want, in turn wasting people's time again and again. While this is not the norm it will happen more so with Coils on the later end with more rigorous mechanics to handle. Examples of these actions are popular in some trials/raids including Tsukuyomi NM, Titania NM, and O12N.

C) The option to PF the fights is already there and with the baggage these fights have it would make sense for players who want to experience this story to do it on their own time. I would in the worst case take a roulette specifically for Coils if people want to experience the story/raids however would feel a better alternative is either PF or potentially even having the trust system (as it's planned to help with Prae and Castrum) allow players to experience it for what it is at their own leisure.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason.

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"For no true reason"?

Dude, I've been around since 2.0's alpha and have done literally every battle content as it was released, including world prog on many of the harder fights including Ultimates. I remember when the playerbase auto-left Ifrit hard mode in DF if you didn't get a PLD to chain stun every eruption because it was too hard to dodge for most people. Or if you didn't get a caster for LB3 since killing the nails legit was an actual dps check. When DF was basically a 95% failure rate on Titan HM in the DF between lack of skill, lag and lack of gear.

I've been around in the heat of every single "controversy" of this game. I remember when the concept of doing your rotation was too hard, thus Steps of Faith was too hard in the DF and remember countless abandonments and/or people insta-leaving, to the point trials roulette was almost impossible to queue for quite a while. Then I remember having to go through 6 different groups before getting my first Final Steps of Faith clear because people sucked, a story that would repeat literally 2x again with the final boss of SB & Castrum Fluminis. The rest of the topic has talked ad nauseum about how some of the easiest fights on paper (TG Cid, the fights I've listed above, Dun Scaith, Titania NM, literally could write an entire paragraph on these.) have failure rates way higher than what should be acceptable. Especially Titania. I leveled three characters, and between the three of them I needed 10 different groups. TEN groups to get three clears. When literally the hardest mechanic in that fight is "stack in a puddle." Don't even get me started on the hilariousness that was weeping city on release.

There's a reason "tales from the DF" exists. There's a reason many, many people say the quality of the DF is poor. It's not fear-mongering. It's valid concerns based on literal years of evidence, forum posts from people calling for nerfs on already trivial content. If you want to see how well DF would fare against the harder coils, go queue up each EX primal in the DF five times each alone with no help, and tell me your success rate & how many of those runs have someone leave instantly. You'll quickly see the reality of the playerbase around you.

I helped a group of super casual friends do coil synced in 5.08 as they wanted to do it legit for fun. As much as I love them, they're probably much more aligned with the average skill of a DF player than probably anyone you've run coils with in 5.0. We saw Allagan field and wiped to it multiple times. I had to painstakingly teach them to do towers. The towersets that involved 3 were a mess for at least 8 pulls before we lucked out. T9 took us literally three entire raid days (6 hours) to clear because of Golem Phase alone. I don't even want to talk about the craziness that was T11 & T12. Deaths and wipes galore. Keep in mind all of this was with voice communication, something DF would be lacking.

T1-4 could be allowed in the DF. T5 is a maybe since divebombs is the one mechanic I wouldn't trust the DF with even with the pit, which is also one of the more important mechanics that can kill everyone if its bungled. (Knocking people into the wall if they move too late, or knocking people out into the arena to get massacred by proceeding divebombs if they move too early and Twin spawns behind the group as a result.) T6-7 would be sketchier, but possible. T8 would be super sketch. T9 and up would just be lol.

When DF has had a historic failure rate unacceptable on the easier, basic fights in the game that are much more mechanically sparse, why are you insistent that adding Coils would result in anything different?

Considering my past experience of unsyncing them with my fc mate on early SB (half of our party is sprout, me included),
and got several wipes in nael because of the meteors and golems
yes, we wiped on unsynced T9, my fc mates doesn't tell the mech on purpose and only tell us after our first wipe,
even then, we need several tries to do the mech right and finally got our kills

Other experience I had trying T2 synced with pugs (someone put PF for synced T2 runs), one of the party member gladly teach us most of the mechanics,
but we still wiped so hard on allagan rot mechanic, that lead to vote abandon

imagine this happened on pugs, half of them are new to the raids, and have problem in communication (difference language as example),
surely the party will be gone in wipefest or vote abandon real quick, or even some of the pt member will booted out before it even began

so... I'd prefer that those coil raid be left out of our current dr normal raids

On the one hand, I would love to see a Coils roulette, because the story is a big part of the lore and it really should be more easily available. But on the other hand, I was in a party today that wiped three times on normal Susano, whose mechanics consist entirely of "stack", "dodge", and "kill the rock" (and the sword phase, but that wasn't a problem).

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Originally Posted by Noitems

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Well, now you have officially met one of the players who don't see it this way for the solid reason of as soon as I hit the log in button to this game that I am putting time aside for any content that comes my way. I don't care if its Party Finder or Duty Finder, I just roll with it. And you know what's funny? I have met too many other players who're exactly the same. This coming from a player that is not apart of FC or has a fully-loaded friend list.

I mean should I just start assuming that everyone against Coil in roulette is all the bad players that you guys are ranting on about? Should I just completely ignore the amount players that I have run into that stuck around and even encouraged us all not to give up in all the harder content I've attempted sync and unsync?

I mean statics are nothing but a bunch of randoms that come together, get used to one another and clear content. Part Finder is also a bunch of randoms, that come together, possibly form friendships, and tackle content. Both scenarios involve you finding randoms to complete content. Before your FC was even a thing, you had to invite randoms to it, get closer to one another, and form groups for whatever content. I don't know about you but there's a whole lot of statics, party finders and FC that show there are a lot more competent players in this game then you think.

At some point, those very people will have to queue solo into the content they want to do. And apparently, it's becoming breaking news around here that these very people stop to explain mechanics. They encourage people not to give up. They stick around for almost an hour to see it through. They cheer right alongside us when we get our clears. And even if we fail, some of them go as far as to say we can form a party finder, sync it, and keep trying until we get it. Do you know what makes that even more interesting? This is where people start singing praises about this community being the best community they have ever been apart of. From those of us who came from other MMOs we've experienced every type of community out there and for me this is one of the better ones. Not the best but it's up there.

People who want to attempt and clear harder content is there. People who always set time by for whatever roulette throws at them are also there. Ready and willing, they are the last people to drop out. The last ones to complain and the first ones to make a joke to lighten the moment and encourage people to stay.

It's like I'm playing this game in some weird unspoken FC that all are welcomed to and those who missed that invite are here complaining about Coil being too hard for that massive FC to tackle. Most of you sound like you're apart of an FC or static that most likely got started by you all teaming up with randoms and those randoms showing you they can game right with you. I didn't need a static or FC to see that I can game with them or that they game with me. We just game. If we fail, oh well, try again. If we nail it, YAAASSSS!!!

But at least after reading this thread, I can see why people have given up on asking for harder content. It's not the bad players that are preventing it entirely. It's the people being ruled over by bad players that are stopping it the most.

We're fine with hard content (why else would they make Extreme, Savage and Ultimate content? Heck, the NieR raids, while pretty easy, are kinda doing away with telegraphed AoEs), it's just that after a long day of work (or family reunion), the last thing anyone wants to deal with is T9, T11, T12 and T13 in a roulette. Maybe even T2, since that has Allagan Rot (and that mechanic returned kinda recently in Guardian Savage, so it's not something the casual player has experienced) and I doubt most newbies know about the enrage strat.

I've brought this up with a few FC mates and they said they'd probably stop doing Normal Raid Roulette altogether (probably didn't help that one of them was currently doing Expert Roulette and one of the DPS they had was doing less damage than the SCH).

Quote:

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The way some people are speaking about DF here makes it sound like it's impossible to clear even o12n or e4n in the duty finder, all while overhyping the mechanics of massively nerfed fights like T6. Fights like T9 are definitely not clearable on the duty finder, but there's no reason to keep them at that difficulty level, given that they're ancient, its impossible to experience them as they used to be (classes have been majorly changed since then), and a new player will get a better experience of coil by doing an easy 8 person raid than by being carried by an invincible level 80 player.

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Again, the fights like T9 need to be nerfed first, then we can talk about them entering a roulette.

Gonna be completely frank. No one is in the market for easier content especially after our pruning in 5.0, HOWEVER the reasons we have Normal and EX, Normal and Savage are just that. To allow a split between people who want to do the content casually and those who want to test themselves, Because Coil was designed as it was you don't get that luxury until the later tiers, and until the fights are nerfed enough that the casual base can manage through it with little issue as is.

The only reason why people are so defending on this is because you're forcing a very often run rou to deal with stuff which would be considered too hard for the casual base. Which is the majority of people going into it. You only got to look at the like counts on posts arguing against it, and we even had someone from Masamune, on a JP dc not advising it, and the JP Dc's are some of the most dedicated to clearing content synced or min il.

I queued into mentor rou earlier and got O12N, which the party wipes 4 times before clearing, all have done this before, and one person left after the first wipe. This is just common place in a roulette and having it stretch to some of the later coils where people don't like running them due to the mechanics is just not a good blend.

Mind you I don't think anyone here has said anything negative about a coils rou past it won't be run often. The main point people ARE stating is that they don't want this content in normal raid rou because of all these reasons stated here.

If coils had that split between Normal and Savage from it's inception this entire conversation would be vastly different and most would be in favor. However because of Coils design and it being one big package you either need to nerf the later ones to allow for an easier time or just flat out refuse them in normal raid rou. The fact you guys are arguing for this in normal daily rou is the entire reason you're getting this adamant defense.