Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

on the "200 DPS isn't worth dropping this awesome tool" basis.

We saw it significantly during Stormblood, we saw it some during Heavensward, it was the entire reason behind the Cross Class Nerfs in ARR (Remember when Bard literally had access to everything in their 20% states? pepperidge farm remembers)

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I think your situation in Stormblood is overexaggerated, and even if not, that just makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why you're defending this? I get that it must've been difficult when Summoner overtook Black Mage for a moment there, but realise that it was not entirely raise that did that - you forget to take into account Contagion. Which is also gone, by the way.

Contrast Stormblood with, for example, the pf situation that is very widespread among many servers right now, where a significant amount of jobs are being ostracized in favor of the larger numbers. Also keep in mind that many jobs have seen a reduction in the amount of "awesome tools" as well, which also doesn't help the situation. It's way out of proportion right now, with the huge disconnect between the top 3 (possibly soon to be 4) and the rest, and this simply needs to be addressed. You can't have the highest apm job be worthless because it involves less standing still. You can't have ranged worthless because they can move - remember that often times ranged moves so that casters and melees don't have to. And no, all these aforementioned jobs do not bring the awesome tools that make it worth it. We're not arguing that Black Mage shouldn't be at the top. By all means, you can keep that position and we don't care. The lower dps job players just wish that it could feel rewarding to play our job as a dps, and not be "rezbot 1, rezbot 2, when are you swapping to more damage" jobs. There needs to be a reason to consider bringing a different dps, like "If we brought a red mage we could have embolden which benefits our more physical composition more" or "we should bring a black mage so that the dancer can maximize their buffs as they have that additional damage". As Cetonis says, the only question is how close a job can get before a defensive skill changes the math. As such a BRD should not be doing BLM damage, but should be a lot closer than what it is right now. Being closer to each other doesn't just mean that there will be more viable jobs, but also that there will be much more variety in viable parties and it may very well have the capability to change the raiding environment to a healthier one.

There is no shame in a job being better for progging, but there is shame in a job being almost too weak outside of progging. We're advocating being about 500-600, maybe for RDM closer to 800 dps away from the BLM level of dps at top level. Do you think this will break BLM as a job? This is considering rdps values, not pdps.

I honestly think that the mentioned goal of players not having to feel like they have to bring meta comps is within reach, but with the current differences in jobs it's just a different take on the problem. Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

It was not a personal attack. "You" in the context is any and all current top DPS spots. Just dont have a better way to write it than with "you", or I would have written it differently.

Now that you mention contagion i believer thatThe most reason they take SMN instead of BLM back then is not raised not personal DPS its more Party buff stuff... people want to raise their number for a certain site (￣▽￣); back then people love nin, drg, brd for... buff...

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Originally Posted by kajv95

I think your situation in Stormblood is overexaggerated, and even if not, that just makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why you're defending this? I get that it must've been difficult when Summoner overtook Black Mage for a moment there, but realise that it was not entirely raise that did that - you forget to take into account Contagion. Which is also gone, by the way.

Contrast Stormblood with, for example, the pf situation that is very widespread among many servers right now, where a significant amount of jobs are being ostracized in favor of the larger numbers. Also keep in mind that many jobs have seen a reduction in the amount of "awesome tools" as well, which also doesn't help the situation. It's way out of proportion right now, with the huge disconnect between the top 3 (possibly soon to be 4) and the rest, and this simply needs to be addressed. You can't have the highest apm job be worthless because it involves less standing still. You can't have ranged worthless because they can move - remember that often times ranged moves so that casters and melees don't have to. And no, all these aforementioned jobs do not bring the awesome tools that make it worth it. We're not arguing that Black Mage shouldn't be at the top. By all means, you can keep that position and we don't care. The lower dps job players just wish that it could feel rewarding to play our job as a dps, and not be "rezbot 1, rezbot 2, when are you swapping to more damage" jobs. There needs to be a reason to consider bringing a different dps, like "If we brought a red mage we could have embolden which benefits our more physical composition more" or "we should bring a black mage so that the dancer can maximize their buffs as they have that additional damage". As Cetonis says, the only question is how close a job can get before a defensive skill changes the math. As such a BRD should not be doing BLM damage, but should be a lot closer than what it is right now. Being closer to each other doesn't just mean that there will be more viable jobs, but also that there will be much more variety in viable parties and it may very well have the capability to change the raiding environment to a healthier one.

There is no shame in a job being better for progging, but there is shame in a job being almost too weak outside of progging. We're advocating being about 500-600, maybe for RDM closer to 800 dps away from the BLM level of dps at top level. Do you think this will break BLM as a job? This is considering rdps values, not pdps.

I honestly think that the mentioned goal of players not having to feel like they have to bring meta comps is within reach, but with the current differences in jobs it's just a different take on the problem. Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

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Well said, you beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

It was not a personal attack. "You" in the context is any and all current top DPS spots. Just dont have a better way to write it than with "you", or I would have written it differently.

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Aye friend, I wrote that post before I read your most recent post saying it was for shock value, so I omitted it. It's alright, and I do think you have a good point in that regard. In fact, your general core idea of the fact that instead of supposedly going in a meta-deleting way, we've simply gone into a different type of meta is extremely sound, though I don't necessarily agree with the changes to raise. Raise on its own is already a taxed ability and simply doesn't have to be taxed aside from less than 1k dps at the absolute maximum.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Now that you mention contagion i believer thatThe most reason they take SMN instead of BLM back then is not raised not personal DPS its more Party buff stuff... people want to raise their number for a certain site (￣▽￣); back then people love nin, drg, brd for... buff...

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It had to do with the extreme synergy between all of these jobs. Ninja worked TA for everyone, BRD would get helped by DRG and in turn BRD would help the party as a whole.
Summoner's Contagion would buff themselves and the healer dps, and scholar would help with chain stratagem which would help everyone and had the potential to create an absolutely hilarious burst phase for BRD alongside DRG Battle Litany, while AST could increase that even further.

A lot of these synergizing aspects have been removed though, and as such the current divide in dps has no place here. But back then, BLM absolutely needed the buff in order to be respected, since it didn't have anything like Contagion.

Aye, I only put out examples of ways to open an actual reform of the current meta to meta trend. I mean, its gonna be an eternal dance of outcries every time one job gets buffed over another, or one gets nerfed under another. Its a quick fix to soothe the symptoms, but it doesnt cure the disease. If you know what I mean?

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Aye, I only put out examples of ways to open an actual reform of the current meta to meta trend. I mean, its gonna be an eternal dance of outcries every time one job gets buffed over another, or one gets nerfed under another. Its a quick fix to soothe the symptoms, but it doesnt cure the disease. If you know what I mean?

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Well, I understand what you mean, but I believe that unless you give the BLM access to this raise as well, it'd kind of perpetuate the problem where now BLM is going to stand out as being "that one that doesn't really have options". This is why not every dps has to be fully equal. Bringing a bit more damage can be a gimmick on its own, too. It'd also serve to make defensive buffs that much harder to implement, and would make things far more difficult in the long run. It'll also hurt the perception of options, and options are always a key driving point to any game. Meaningful options are what make a game truly a game, they're what make the interactive experience be more than going through the motions. Else it'd be more like watching a movie but having to hit buttons in the same way to progress the plot every time you watch the movie. Weird analogy probably, it's 5:22 AM and I need sleep :)

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Originally Posted by kajv95

Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

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I'm not a guaranteed raid spot because I play Black Mage.

Lets get that straight and clear out of the way - Bard. I know it's hard having to give up your guaranteed raid spot of 6+ years.

(See? That doesn't help either of us does it?)

No, my situation in Stormblood wasn't exaggerated. I was literally kicked from groups because I was a Black Mage. I was -never- kicked from a group as a Machinist, even though they were considered -vastly inferior- to Bard until Alphascape, in which case they were only considered somewhat inferior.

And I'm a far worse Machinist than I was a Black Mage.

I'm speaking as someone who has been locked out, retroactively removed ("Whoops, kept Black mage open"), and, from a pure analytical perspective, realized that Black Mage was horrendously weak compared to other potential options in Deltascape. As someone who has played the job since starting in 2.0 and enjoyed the constraints placed upon it, that's rather annoying.

I will concede that it was not -only- Raise that lead to the public opinion. As with anything, there are multiple factors to consider. However, even accounting for those, damage itself is bottom line, and if the Black Mage still brought more, it didn't bring enough to warrant not also bringing a Raise.

600 DPS sounds like a lot, until you consider that at current levels that equates to maybe 3 seconds off a kill time.

3 seconds.

Off a kill time.

For giving up a safety net.

I wouldn't take that trade.

(And neither did most world race teams.)

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

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No, we can at this point argue that BLM is currently overpowered. It can't be overpowered without also considering Monk and Dragoon overpowered, but we can consider BLM overpowered alongside them. It just depends on where rDPS is supposed to be with no further non-quantitative attractors in the mix (which, apart from the horribly overestimated caster Raise and maybe Mantra, are few and far between). Anything above that line is overpowered. It's as simple as that. BLM's history of being locked out of raids in early SB has absolutely nothing to do with that simple distinction.

I'm guessing the intended rDPS is nearer to that of SAM, or between it and DRG, since that's the only way, once making the appropriate balance adjustments, the current dps difficulty could be preserved for all but meta compositions (while non-meta compositions would see noticeably more output, and therefore slightly reduced difficulty to dps checks).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, we can at this point argue that BLM is currently overpowered. It can't be overpowered without also considering Monk and Dragoon overpowered, but we can consider BLM overpowered alongside them. It just depends on where rDPS is supposed to be with no further non-quantitative attractors in the mix (which, apart from the horribly overestimated caster Raise and maybe Mantra, are few and far between). Anything above that line is overpowered. It's as simple as that. BLM's history of being locked out of raids in early SB has absolutely nothing to do with that simple distinction. .

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Then it's been overpowered since Alphascape, but it's only a problem now, because?

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Originally Posted by Sequora

... and if people aren’t messing up, you aren’t using it.

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Not targeted at you, but kinda invading in for a second.

Any DPS who wonder why healers hate how this game is designed? Remember this line. Having abilities you don't use often unless people screw up, and being told you ought to be happy for having it? That's the healer life.

On the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Sequora

We’re not healers

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Why does overall role have to be utterly prescriptive to toolkit? Do people WANT job balance to essentially be 5 jobs, but with 3-4 different coats of paint each? Because that's where insisting that you only get tools related to your immediate role leads.

RDM especially. Part of its lore and legacy identity is that it can heal. Personally, I'm still miffed as a longtime fan of the job over the series that it isn't the StB BRD/ShB DNC of casters, but with a healer-aid/mitigation focused support kit and caster level pDPS to make up for embolden being kinda ehhh was a damage buff.

Verraise's issue, like many troubled skills, is that Square Enix encounter design is cruel to it. It's unneeded in EZ content where half the group can rest on the floor and still clear, and it doesn't help clear in the harder content where the DPS checks are sky high. It shouldn't have such a forceful thumb on the scale as it does, but it shouldn't be killed as a scapegoat for SE's inability to balance or design around anything except rDPS.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Not targeted at you, but kinda invading in for a second.

Any DPS who wonder why healers hate how this game is designed? Remember this line. Having abilities you don't use often unless people screw up, and being told you ought to be happy for having it? That's the healer life.

On the other hand...

Why does overall role have to be utterly prescriptive to toolkit? Do people WANT job balance to essentially be 5 jobs, but with 3-4 different coats of paint each? Because that's where insisting that you only get tools related to your immediate role leads.

RDM especially. Part of its lore and legacy identity is that it can heal. Personally, I'm still miffed as a longtime fan of the job over the series that it isn't the StB BRD/ShB DNC of casters, but with a healer-aid/mitigation focused support kit and caster level pDPS to make up for embolden being kinda ehhh was a damage buff.

Verraise's issue, like many troubled skills, is that Square Enix encounter design is cruel to it. It's unneeded in EZ content where half the group can rest on the floor and still clear, and it doesn't help clear in the harder content where the DPS checks are sky high. It shouldn't have such a forceful thumb on the scale as it does, but it shouldn't be killed as a scapegoat for SE's inability to balance or design around anything except rDPS.

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RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should. Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should. Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

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Yeah, it's almost like they all have Raise.

So it's not an issue if they all do around the same damage.

(Ravioli Ravioli, give me the Revivioli)

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

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Most of my healer kit doesn't get used in tandem until I hit freaking Savage, and other two healers' kits were amputated to homogenize them with WHM. So no, healer kits are not always useful and do lead to questionable re-balancing decisions; when I run out of things to heal, a common occurrence in this game, they become useLESS and I'm left with GLARE GLARE GLARE...

Your issue with RDM Verraise is my issue with half of my job's kit in the average instance. Most dungeon and normal trial raidwides don't do enough damage to justify using Medica 2, let alone Cure 3. I could solo-heal the current EX's half asleep with a fraction of my kit. All that stuff that goes unused on a regular basis could be something, anything more diverse and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should.

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As for the other note, a job from Final Fantasy should play like that job. If you tried to tell me RDM was a Runefencer, I'd laugh and ask where the real Runefencer is. If SE wanted a spellsword with no healing or support utility of actual note, they shouldn't have called it Red Mage. Some adaptation has to be made for genre, but a RDM whose only "White Magic" that gets used is offensive is pushing it. I frankly don't care too much about verraise itself, but I would be very upset if they leave RDM with Vercure and nothing else for non-offensive white magic.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah, it's almost like they all have Raise.

So it's not an issue if they all do around the same damage.

(Ravioli Ravioli, give me the Revivioli)

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Which is why i want verraise and SMN rez to be removed so we can start singing a closer tune to BLM. removing caster rez could redefine the Caster role and the way it contributes to a raid.

Pardon my soap box stance but, RDM and SMN can be more than just BLM with rez and lower damage. but a disgruntled BLM who doesn't want to hear anything about other jobs getting their fair share probably feels intimidated because this is their first taste of dominance in a long time. Meanwhile RDMs honestly can't speak up about any issues without it devolving into Verraise this and Verraise that. The post i made had many other points beyond verraise and how i felt about playing rdm and it's rotation structure yet, look what the comments devolved into.(Such a healthy skill) Meanwhile SMN has always been the most clunky job and SE has never really made it a fluid job to play and that can be frustrating for players of that job.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Pardon my soap box stance but, RDM and SMN can be more than just BLM with rez and lower damage. but a disgruntled BLM who doesn't want to hear anything about other jobs getting their fair share probably feels intimidated because this is their first taste of dominance in a long time.

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Hey, I agree with you. Get rid of the raise or share it, and you can do all the damage you want.

It's not about dominance. It's about being "fair". Believe it or not, it's -not- fair to have access to a completely separate basic function, -and- do comparable damage. Simply isn't.

Truss it up however you want, justify the evil Black Mage as much as you want.

Fact of the matter is that's "fair". As long as that Raise exists, so does a gap.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Which is why i want verraise and SMN rez to be removed so we can start singing a closer tune to BLM. removing caster rez could redefine the Caster role and the way it contributes to a raid.

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SMN was very well tuned in SB (not immediately but after the adjustments) to the point that it cemented itself in the meta and there was no reason to take a BLM over it, and they had Resurrection but aside from that they were great in damage and other utility. So it goes to show that a job can be balanced around Rez, but it's all about everything else the job brings.

BLM had damage but no utility and RDM had utility but damage was just adequate (not bad but not great either), so even if Rez was removed from all casters, what else are they going to bring. RDM could keep Vercure but everything else would be meh and SMN could be buffed with damage but the fact it still has buff utility over BLM, we'd be back at why take BLM at all. As useful as Rez can be outside of progression, the main concern is what can a caster job bring that makes them worthwhile whilst also staying unique; pure damage, various buff utility or both.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Hey, I agree with you. Get rid of the raise or share it, and you can do all the damage you want.

It's not about dominance. It's about being "fair". Believe it or not, it's -not- fair to have access to a completely separate basic function, -and- do comparable damage. Simply isn't.

Truss it up however you want, justify the evil Black Mage as much as you want.

Fact of the matter is that's "fair". As long as that Raise exists, so does a gap.

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Yeah a gap should exist, but as big as it is now? Thats a problem by which BLM feel justified to be so much more powerful than RDM and SMN. I think it should go so that gap is gone but if it stays, That gap needs to be MUCH closer than it is currently

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Then it's been overpowered since Alphascape, but it's only a problem now, because?

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It wasn't nearly as significantly top rDPS in late Alphascape as it and Monk are now. A $100,000 debt can be significant without a $10 debt also having to being fundamentally significant.

When SB BLM was finally balanced, we had the tightest rDPS balance the game had ever seen. Now... we have some of the worst.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Yeah a gap should exist, but as big as it is now? Thats a problem by which BLM feel justified to be so much more powerful than RDM and SMN. I think it should go so that gap is gone but if it stays, That gap needs to be MUCH closer than it is currently

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Now, here's where I eat some crow.

I can't say for certain how numbers pan out, as with logs now doing the RDps itself, the prior site used for it is no longer operating to my knowledge. This means going back to get more accurate information is a challenge, during Alphascape and prior, but we'll make an effort.

We can say with certainty that A) Black Mage's numbers are lower than shown for RDPS, and B) Red Mages numbers are higher than shown.

Given that Red mage's kit hasn't changed, we can assume a similar ratio of give and take. With Black mage, it's pretty safe to say you can slash them by about 5% and that'll be your "RDPS" for them given the babysitting that went on at the time.

So, using Voidwalker (Again, cuz 100% uptime), we see Red Mage's RDPS / ADPS disparity hits around 12.9 / 12.6. Looking through the other fights, this seems fairly constant. About 2% more, so moving back to alphascape, looking again at Final Omega (100% uptime), applying our modifiers gives us a look at...

8700 to 8100, or about a 600 RDPS difference. About 8%.

If we apply the Shadowbringers inflation rate to Black Mage, we see 8700 to 14,900 or about a 71% increase.
With Red mage we see 8100 to 13,000 or about a 60% increase.

Comparing the two, we see about a 15% difference. Getting this back to 8% is about 900 RDPS, which since RDPS will shift up or down, is better just thrown onto the Red Mage's personal.

This same fight has an RDPS requirement of around 71,000 I believe (It might be higher or lower, just lowballing. This means an extra 1000 DPS results in a quicker clear by about 1.5%, or putting that into easier to digest chunks, about 9-10 seconds faster on the kill. Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k, it's probably closer to 7 seconds faster kill time.

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.

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You do realize that in one of your e2s clears if you were to be replaced with rdm of same performance the total raid dps would be lower than 71k resulting in a wipe, and in another one it would only be 135dps above 71k?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k

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Those people are blm, mnk and drg btw

Given the current need caster to raise = wipe savage raiding why bother with raise... SMN and RDM is paying an overrated unused tax

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'm not a guaranteed raid spot because I play Black Mage.

Lets get that straight and clear out of the way - Bard. I know it's hard having to give up your guaranteed raid spot of 6+ years.

(See? That doesn't help either of us does it?)

No, my situation in Stormblood wasn't exaggerated. I was literally kicked from groups because I was a Black Mage. I was -never- kicked from a group as a Machinist, even though they were considered -vastly inferior- to Bard until Alphascape, in which case they were only considered somewhat inferior.

And I'm a far worse Machinist than I was a Black Mage.

I'm speaking as someone who has been locked out, retroactively removed ("Whoops, kept Black mage open"), and, from a pure analytical perspective, realized that Black Mage was horrendously weak compared to other potential options in Deltascape. As someone who has played the job since starting in 2.0 and enjoyed the constraints placed upon it, that's rather annoying.

I will concede that it was not -only- Raise that lead to the public opinion. As with anything, there are multiple factors to consider. However, even accounting for those, damage itself is bottom line, and if the Black Mage still brought more, it didn't bring enough to warrant not also bringing a Raise.

600 DPS sounds like a lot, until you consider that at current levels that equates to maybe 3 seconds off a kill time.

3 seconds.

Off a kill time.

For giving up a safety net.

I wouldn't take that trade.

(And neither did most world race teams.)

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

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Ah, yeah, the deflection of "you're a bard so you can't know what it's like!!"

News flash, you've never seen me argue that dancer would've been overpowered despite being a bard and basically taking my job design away. You didn't see me argue that I was scared of losing my guaranteed raid position, I am fully aware that my raid position is by technicality of Machinist being problematic in implementation. Yes, those things that happened during Deltascape suck, but you're arguing that should happen for atleast 5 jobs simply so it doesn't happen for black mage. The problem at that time was that Black Mage was underpowered in comparison, not that Summoner was overpowered, and let's keep red mage out of the equation for just that second but feel free to hold that thought.

600 dps is fair, 3 seconds killtime faster is fair. You are VASTLY overrating Raise based on prior experiences that aren't even fully dependent on having it. Don't forget there are two healers that can save swiftcast for this entire reason - and at the point where a summoner or red mage has to step in to raise, that's usually enough deaths to warrant a reset, because dps checks are tighter than they were at the time. That safety net of yours does not even properly exist right now, unless the job in question brings 2 meta jobs in the same party right now, and even then it's tight.That's not having options, that's having just telling these other people they should feel bad because they have a raise. See, if weakness debuffs didn't exist, I would gladly argue that you are right on this, but it does exist so the penalty is there, and by the time the RDM NEEDS to raise, that penalty is far too apparent while they already have to take care of the lower dps placed on their job AND lose a gcd to do it. SMN at the time was preferred because it was better than BLM, and had Contagion so during those windows, if someone died, the summoner could easily take care of it while the healers could still take all that increased damage. It's a very, very clear difference, and consistently bringing up Deltascape STILL makes me wonder why you're defending this. "It doesn't happen to my job, so it's fine now" is a bad stance to take.

Do I really have to sit here and explain the concept of how seconds matters far more than one would initially believe when it's 1 dps bringing those seconds on their own? Since you enjoyed bringing my class into it, those 3 seconds are on average about 4 skills or abilities pressed.

I can definitely make the argument for Monk and Dragoon, and I can make it for Black Mage too. There is no more oversaturation on job synergy, and it's far safer to have everything huddled up together much more closely. Those seconds are a safe niche for BLMs to have, and I believe that they should stand above the rest like that. But as it is right now, Black Mage, Monk and Dragoon are ALL comparatively overpowered.

Tbh, I wouldn't care less if SMN and RDM kept Raise. The mp tax as well as the dps loss for casting it is already a bother.
You know what would be amazing tho and would solve a lot of issues ? Giving some more offensive buffs to RDM and SMN.

Right now peoples want to do damage, because "black mage's doing wayyyy to much, so it must be mandatory". But being a Black Mage with Embolden or with demi-primals won't solve the issues at all, in fact it will just shove away BLM from being a worthwhile pick in a group, because the damage brought by BLM isn't nearly enough to compete with the utility brought by SMN/RDM.

I mean guys, look at DRG and SAM. Do you know why peoples prefer a Dragoon than a Samurai right now ? Even if the Samurai can do just a tiny bit more dps ? Because DRG has raid buffs, enough in fact to completely overpower a Samurai which has nothing to bring except not enough raw dps.

The issue can be seen in another way with Ninja, who has an amazing raid buff but still doesn't do any damage at all. In fact he's so bad that his damage isn't worth taking even though he has by far one of the greatest utility among every dps.

So instead of arguing why peoples should nerf BLM or buff every class's damage onto BLM level, let's just all agree on the fact that some lower tier class must get a bit of a pDPS boost (Looking at you Ninja), while some other would benefit way more of having an actual offensive buff that's worth taking (and would be enough to warrant doing less than a Black Mage).

I recall having said that somewhere else, but overall, no matter what comp you pick, the total damage dealt by your group should be roughly the same. However that doesn't mean that every class should deal the same amount of damage. Damage will be spread out differently across your team depending on job composition...

But in order to do that, we must propell upward some class that do need more damage to be viable in the first place (and not be taken over by Dragoon or Monk because they're better no matter what) AS WELL AS giving more offensive and party buff to class that aren't at the top of the dps spectrum. The goal isn't to have a Stormblood pf again, where peoples were kicking a class just because it didn't bring enough. :rolleyes:

After going through this thread, I genuinely hope SE do not take this forum into account when making decisions, the amount of hyperbole, misinformation and made up stats is mind boggling. I can see why this game is loosing so many of the features that made it unique.

General reminder to all reading that we're talking rDPS here, as in the total sum of raid contribution, now measured capably by fflogs so we don't even have to estimate it by plugging runs into xivrdps anymore. "More personal but damage buffs" arguments are vastly outdated, we really don't need to parse that out in the broad sense anymore. It's only relevant around the edges where you get into scaling with party coordination and such.

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This same fight has an RDPS requirement of around 71,000 I believe (It might be higher or lower, just lowballing. This means an extra 1000 DPS results in a quicker clear by about 1.5%, or putting that into easier to digest chunks, about 9-10 seconds faster on the kill. Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k, it's probably closer to 7 seconds faster kill time.

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.

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Ignoring debating the fine details of your numbers, of course 7 seconds is an adequate trade. 5 seconds is an adequate trade. Heck, so is 2.

The meta comp is purely a matter of what collection of jobs can kill fights the fastest. That's it. If BLM brings more than the other casters, it is now meta, and meta jobs are never shunned.

Which isn't to say SE should try and balance 100% towards the meta, but it's clearly the starting point for people when discussing job balance. Any meta or meta-adjacent job is going to be fine in the eyes of the community.

Making it so non-meta jobs simply don't exist is an impossible goal, but you can get things close enough that people looking at the numbers aren't going to go "oof, my favorite job is terribad", close enough that regular statics and PFs won't wonder if they should restrict themselves to the better jobs to improve their chances.

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

People have to understand that ranged tax shouldn't be a thing, because at high level, uptime is the same: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...35/unknown.png (I let the tank/healer to show that even them have nearly perfect uptime). Having to play machinist, keeping 47CPM (highest of any job) without drifting, while doing all the mechanics to let casters not move/melee next to the boss, but still having a "ranged tax" that means whatever we do, our "selfish dps" cant even come close to dps with raid buffs, is not motivating to play well at all. Ranged have the lowest MagRes too, meaning we are the first to die if the healers arent the highest quality.

And if you want some example on why it's not rewarding: a 95+ machinist on e2s is a green mnk, e3s: gray monk, e4s: gray monk. Very high selfish dps.

Caster wise, Smn/Rdm dps shouldn't be reduced because they are bringing a rez either, rezzing in itself should be the tax, it throws you of the rotation, it doesnt generate any mana (for rdm) etc. What should be done is maybe put another raid utility on rdm that could be defensive (like a mantra, or a small shield) to give it a bit more -useful- utility than a smn. then balance the dps to not have that giant gap anymore with blm, just a smaller one.

The difficulty of the job shouldn't be a taken into account when balancing its dps, it just means that some job will be more rewarding for playing it well, if you pick a melee or caster you know what difficulties you'll have to face to get good at it.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

General reminder to all reading that we're talking rDPS here, as in the total sum of raid contribution, now measured capably by fflogs so we don't even have to estimate it by plugging runs into xivrdps anymore. "More personal but damage buffs" arguments are vastly outdated, we really don't need to parse that out in the broad sense anymore. It's only relevant around the edges where you get into scaling with party coordination and such.



Ignoring debating the fine details of your numbers, of course 7 seconds is an adequate trade. 5 seconds is an adequate trade. Heck, so is 2.

The meta comp is purely a matter of what collection of jobs can kill fights the fastest. That's it. If BLM brings more than the other casters, it is now meta, and meta jobs are never shunned.

Which isn't to say SE should try and balance 100% towards the meta, but it's clearly the starting point for people when discussing job balance. Any meta or meta-adjacent job is going to be fine in the eyes of the community.

Making it so non-meta jobs simply don't exist is an impossible goal, but you can get things close enough that people looking at the numbers aren't going to go "oof, my favorite job is terribad", close enough that regular statics and PFs won't wonder if they should restrict themselves to the better jobs to improve their chances.

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

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I quit my static

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

machinist, keeping 47CPM (highest of any job)

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You forgot NIN?

This is the average taken from 5.0
https://i.imgur.com/jtau1fQ.png

Currently seeing NIN w/o any additional SkS doing around 48-49 CPM. Not to mention our opener alone nets us at about... 101-111 CPM, depending on latency.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Given the current need caster to raise = wipe savage raiding why bother with raise... SMN and RDM is paying an overrated unused tax

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Except that's hilariously wrong lol.
Maybe if the whole party is comprised of grays.

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

You do realize that in one of your e2s clears if you were to be replaced with rdm of same performance the total raid dps would be lower than 71k resulting in a wipe, and in another one it would only be 135dps above 71k?

Those people are blm, mnk and drg btw

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Yeah, it's almost like that's the trade off. Safety for damage.

Given that Wayfinder is using 99th for their arguments, we use 99th for our comparisons as well. Take the bottom 4 dps at 99th in the ADPS section, add in any tanks or healers that you want, and you hit 75-76k without issue on Voidwalker

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Originally Posted by kajv95

Ah, yeah, the deflection of "you're a bard so you can't know what it's like!!"

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You don't. Plain and simple. But that was really more just poking ribs.

You are vastly underrating -caster- Raise. Demanding that healers save swiftcast takes away basically their only damage mobility tool to cover a mistake, that -Red Mage- can do without a thought and that Summoner, what. Swiftcast to gain 40 potency? No matter how much damage Red Mage loses for raising, a healer -hardcasting loses more-. Period, end of story. Saying a healer should just hold on to Swiftcast in a party with a Red Mage or even Summoner is probably the most telling thing you could say.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

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All 3 kills I see are Red Mage and Summoner, unless you mean a different static?

Oh wait maybe you meant other bosses.

Oh, speed killing. That makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

People have to understand that ranged tax shouldn't be a thing, because at high level, uptime is the same: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...35/unknown.png (I let the tank/healer to show that even them have nearly perfect uptime).

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Active time is not uptime... You can find this kind of active time easily from all percentiles except maybe from greys. You need another method to get estimates on uptime.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You don't. Plain and simple. But that was really more just poking ribs.

You are vastly underrating -caster- Raise. Demanding that healers save swiftcast takes away basically their only damage mobility tool to cover a mistake, that -Red Mage- can do without a thought and that Summoner, what. Swiftcast to gain 40 potency? No matter how much damage Red Mage loses for raising, a healer -hardcasting loses more-. Period, end of story. Saying a healer should just hold on to Swiftcast in a party with a Red Mage or even Summoner is probably the most telling thing you could say.

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I know perfectly well what it's like to be excluded for job choices. FFXIV isn't the only game I play that has an active meta, nor is this my only character. Funny how that works!

Also funny how you act as if SMN has to hold their swiftcast in the same vein as healers even though they'd also have to use it to adjust to things like movement options. If you're going to split hairs like not having people hold swiftcast, then we can split hairs of "just don't die and you won't even need the RDM/SMN".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

All 3 kills I see are Red Mage and Summoner, unless you mean a different static?

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Look at the speedkills, yeah. We haven't worked on optimizing the last two fights yet, and he's not going to learning curve them on BLM (reminder: it's the caster he's least confident at) while going for weekly kills. That'd just be griefing.

If he'd prog'd them on BLM, it'd be fine, but we were going blind which is the one place battle res has significant value. Now that he's done E1S and E2S on BLM, he'll be doing BLM for weeklies on those, and will be on the other two once we've dedicated that optimization time to them.


To touch on the raise bit, if you're going for speeds, obviously battle raise is useless because if someone dies you're walling it. If you're going for weekly clears, it's only useful if and only if it makes or breaks a kill, the same line of argument you're making about more deeps.

However, more deeps is always an improvement. Battle res is conditional - it relies on your group making a sufficient number of mistakes, but not so many that you can't clear, but still more than your healers were ready to swift res, but not more than your caster can swiftres.

I'd ballpark a swiftres as worth about 250 dps or so in an 8-9 minute fight, between the three healer GCDs and the added uptime of the revived we-assume-dps. So you'd need six-ish of those, five if generous, to come from a caster to make up for not being a BLM - which is not a bar that's going to be reached very often, if ever.

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah, it's almost like that's the trade off. Safety for damage.

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Do you really think boss enrage = safety?

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Except that's hilariously wrong lol.
Maybe if the whole party is comprised of grays.

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Sry talking about e4s here nothing under since its irrevelant anyway because on how easy it is,
a full party of gray wont be able to clear e4s even withouth any death or miss,
not to mention when you need a caster to raise mean your healer ran out of mp or death with the current SMN/RDM dps good luck clearing it ;)

Ffff i double post on my phone forgive me

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Sry talking about e4s here nothing under since its irrevelant anyway because on how easy it is, a full party of gray wont be able to clear e4s even withouth any death or miss, not to mention when you need a caster to raise mean your healer ran out of mp or death with the current SMN/RDM dos good luck clearing it :D

Fff i double post on my phone forgive me

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Caster Raise on a healer so the other healer can use their gcd on a mechanic to have everyone not die would still save a run and not lose enough dps to wipe. It's still more valuable than you give it credit for

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

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That used to be the case. Blm was irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by kajv95

I know perfectly well what it's like to be excluded for job choices. FFXIV isn't the only game I play that has an active meta, nor is this my only character. Funny how that works!

Also funny how you act as if SMN has to hold their swiftcast in the same vein as healers even though they'd also have to use it to adjust to things like movement options. If you're going to split hairs like not having people hold swiftcast, then we can split hairs of "just don't die and you won't even need the RDM/SMN".

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Ruin 2 is 160 potency vs Ruin 3 at 200. Tell me again what downgraded damage instant cast option Healers get?

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Originally Posted by Tenzorro

Do you really think boss enrage = safety?

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I think the blame for enrage sits on the player, not the job.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

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See, on this side of the fence, if it were only a 500 differential, there'd be absolutely no value in taking a black mage. Consider for a moment your own group and your optimizing set up. 500 DPS on an 80k+ group is about .6% more damage, scaling downward as group damage increases further. at 85,000, it's just under .58%.

Obviously, speed kill's a speed kill. The only thing that matters in the end is where it ranks against other speed kills / your own PBs. But that's really not what healthy game balance is around. Speed-anything by virtue of the goal ("As fast as possible") is a niche area of the game that frankly shouldn't be a factor when discussing class strength. In a speed kill setting, -something is always left out-.

Putting it simply, it means 528 second kill on Voidwalker instead takes 531. Again, speedkill, I get it. I get that in -the speed killing community- that's all that matters.

Come back out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber though?

Black Mage is trash again. Throw it away, why bring it? I sincerely doubt the party struggling to meet an enrage with no deaths is going to get more mileage by swapping their caster to Black Mage compared to, I don't know, tightening up their rotations. And that's before buffing Summoner and Red mage to that level.

Oh, and buffing the Ranged too to be comparable.

Which in turn leads to buffing the Ninja, which in turn leads to buffing the Samurai.

You get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

That used to be the case. Blm was irrelevant.

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BLM also used to be only 800 rdps higher than RDM and 400 rdps higher than SMN and it was still a meta pick in Alphascape savage, so I guess having it within 500 of SMN wouldn’t make it irrelevant as it was plenty relevant in alphascape savage optimization